Episode 10 - Steel Toe and Stilettos - Kathy Miller & Shannon Karels

The conversation with these two amazing women is one for the books, they are fun-loving, kind-hearted, and brilliant businesswomen.  

Kathy Miller and Shannon Karels Co-founders and Authors 

 

Leighann Lovely  00:15

Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us. This should be an amazing conversation with two brilliant women. Shannon Karels is a senior operations manager who has led multiple lean transformations, and ran operations for two large publicly traded corporations across multiple industries and business models. She started her career in supply chain management and progressed through Lean and operation leadership roles. Through this journey, Shannon has improved cultures in numerous manufacturing facilities by leading employees empowerment and engagement, and building highly successful teams with a focus on business results. Shannon is known for leading accountable organizations built on trusting relationships that improve the company's profitability and customer experience. Shannon holds a bachelor's degree in supply chain management from Western Michigan University. Other amazing guest is Kathy Miller. Kathy Miller is the senior operations executive who has held numerous global vice president and director roles both in manufacturing Lean Enterprise leadership, Kathy is a Shingo Prize recipient for large businesses as a plant manager. She started her career in operations as a 17 year old Co Op student at a vehicle assembly plant and progress through the engineering marketing, lean manufacturing and operation leadership roles working for four large publicly traded corporations in executive roles. Kathy is a transformational leader who constantly delivers impressive business results through team development, process disciplines and continuous improvement. Kathy is known for creation of inclusive culture based on a trust, respect and accountability. Kathy holds a Bachelors of Science degree in industrial and System Engineering from the Kettering University formerly GMI Engineering and Management Institute, a master's degree of Business Administration from Ball State University, and a Master's Degree in Applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, Kathy was inducted into the women in manufacturing Hall of Fame in 2021. welcome Kathy and Shannon, it is amazing to talk with you today. I've not have the opportunity to read your book. But I am very excited to have this conversation. I just I'm thrilled that two women come together and write such an amazing book about an industry that I'm sure has been an interesting ride for both of you to break into and really shine. And so thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So why don't you start off by just telling me a little bit about yourself. So, Shannon, why don't you go first?

 

Shannon Karels  04:06

Sure. Hi, I'm Shannon Karels. I am the co founder and co author with Kathy Miller, of sisters and Steal Toes and Stilettos, which is a true story of two women manufacturing leaders and Lean Transformation success. I actually started my career in manufacturing in supply chain. So I spent quite a few years moving up through different supply chain functions. And then I found my passion in Lean transformations when I was doing that, and one of my plants. And so I spent quite a few years working in different facilities, transforming plants using mean lean methodologies, and then started to run my own plants which was really what I enjoy doing the most and developing positive work cultures so that all people who work there could thrive and contribute to the business.

 

Leighann Lovely  04:56

Excellent. So Kathy, why don't you introduce yourself?

 

Kathy Miller  05:00

Thanks, Leighann, Thanks, Shannon. So I'm Kathy Miller and I have been in in around manufacturing operations for a very long time, I literally started my career at the age of 17 years old as a co-op student in a vehicle assembly plants. So I went to a school called GMI, or Kettering University, and all five years of your undergraduate program, you work half the time in a real business. So I grew up very, very quickly. I always say that if I can't be a rock star, I'd love to run a vehicle assembly plant. And I think it's just because that's where my roots started. I think it's so amazing that every 60 seconds, a functioning vehicle comes off the end of that line. So I went from there to work in automotive electronics, and I worked in engineering and marketing. And after a while, I really found my way back to operations. I just really missed the whole soul of manufacturing, I would say, so went back, became a superintendent ran a number of pressure sensor departments, the got a call. And the manufacturing. the superintendent said Kathy, we're gonna put you on a lien team in a special assignment. I was very upset because I thought I was doing a good job. And I thought, you know, why are you sidelining me, but it actually changed the trajectory of my career. So I was able to learn from the very early practitioners of lean manufacturing themselves, Jim Womack, John Shook Rick Harris. And since then, I've led operations and led lean manufacturing and operating systems for for major companies. So that's what I've been doing. And it was in one of those assignments where I met Shannon.

 

Leighann Lovely  06:54

Excellent. And I was just gonna ask, you know, how did the two of you, you know, come together? Where did your paths cross?

 

Kathy Miller  07:03

Well, that's a great story. And it's actually in the book. But in a nutshell, I was in charge of lean and quality for a company, and was touring the globe, going to the different plants checking out their quality systems in their progress in lean manufacturing. And I was really learning how to do Lane packing, and did not bring my safety shoes, because they take up half of a carry-on piece of luggage. And I showed up at Shannon's plant, and they said, No problem, Kathy, we have extra safety shoes for you. They were all men sizes, or those little like, I call them duck boot things, you know, those little attachments you put on that you really can't walk around the plants in. So Shannon, very graciously overheard this conversation as I was, you know, distraught looking at these shelves of shoes and attachments that would not help me and came up and asked what my shoe size was, coincidentally, we were the exact same size of shoes. And she offered me her so I could go on the plant tour. And that's how she became shoe-sharing Shannon.

 

Shannon Karels  08:13

Right. And we still share shoes, too.

 

Kathy Miller  08:15

That's so true.

 

Leighann Lovely  08:20

How strange is, you know, I have being that I come from a you know, a background where I've toured many, many manufacturing companies. I too, have experienced where I've walked into a company and I went, Oh my gosh, I don't have my safety shoes. And how often is it that they don't have a size those the duck shoe, the cap that goes on that wraps around, and then you're walking around, and it's actually more unsafe, because now you're flipping around, and you're practically tripping over your own feet, because it's half falling off because they're not made for women. They're there or I shouldn't say they're not made for women. They're not made small enough for my tiny six-and-a-half-size shoe. And then there was actually one time where one of the HR people said don't worry, I have another I have another pair of shoes and I went really, you're gonna let me wear your shoe. She goes yeah, it's way better than wearing those. And I went, Wow, okay. Yeah, I would much prefer to do that. So, that is that is an awesome story. I mean, because I guarantee that there are other women out there which guessing which is why you have been, you know, so successful and understanding those pains. There are a ton of other women out there who have experienced the exact same thing. So yeah. So you I mean, you obviously you wrote a book you you reference, you know the story of how you met is in the book, so When did you start talking about the idea of writing your book? And you know, what inspired you originally to even start having this conversation?

 

Shannon Karels  10:11

Yeah, it's another great story, actually, Kathy are full of stories by the way. Three, you you'll, when you read the book, you'll learn that our relationship grew from this, you know, initial interaction to a subordinate boss relationship to a friendship to now it's more of like a sister, sister like friendship that we have. So we spend a lot of time with our families. And one weekend, almost two years ago, we were reminiscing, hanging out reminiscing about our time together. And at that time, Kathy and I were both running other businesses and having those challenges in itself. And we said, Gosh, you know, we did some really great stuff. And we were together, what made it so different, how come it doesn't work the same in these other places, and we were just reminiscing and comparing. And then we really started to think about, and we really did some really great things, not just great business results, which we got not just great lean implementation, but then also the culture pieces that we instilled. And then we just looked at each other, we're like, you know, maybe we have a story to tell. And then we just kind of kept just chatting about it. And then I went home that day, and the next day, we had the title for the book, and we started writing it, and we had a manuscript written in less than a year. And here we are,

 

Leighann Lovely  11:37

that's awesome. It takes some people, many, many, many years to come up with an idea come up with a manuscript come up with, I mean, that's, that's amazing, the two of you, obviously, together are a power to be reckoned with. And that's I mean, it's, it shows just an, obviously people cannot see you, but the lights that I see just coming from both of you is is is amazing, and to foster that friendship, based on you know, common interest and, and, you know, that just that commonality, and passion for something is, is awesome. That's so great. So now you obviously you work in a predominantly male environment, which by the way, is it's changing. And, you know, if you can inspire, you know, the women, the young, the young girls out there to, to see that there is a place in the world for them in these environments, in the manufacturing environment, it doesn't have to be, you know, a male environment anymore. And that's slowly changing. You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up nowadays, but did it feel that you had to work harder to be respected for your efforts? In working in the manufacturing industry?

 

Kathy Miller  12:51

I think that's a really great question. And we do really hope to inspire the next generation of manufacturing leaders and inspire them to know that they can be themselves, you don't have to adapt to, you know, a male stereotype or any of the other types of stereotypes you would have when you picture a manufacturing environment. But I would say, we didn't necessarily have to work harder, we did have to find our own way. Because there were times that we may have felt excluded. You know, even in the last decade here, there were still places where meetings were held that women weren't allowed, which is so interesting, in this day and age. So there were, there were some environments where we weren't necessarily always included. So those were some challenges that we had. But I think that we both always worked very hard. But there were times when we were singled out because of our gender. We didn't focus on it, you know, when we would walk into a room, we just considered ourselves people who had earned a seat at the table, right or, or a place to tour and to teach and, and contribute. But there are a lot of people who make statements sometimes very well-intentioned about, oh, a female plant manager, oh, a female vice president of operations. And, like I said, most of the time, probably very well-intentioned, but it makes you feel a little bit minimized to, you know, think about that one aspect of your identity, which we're very proud of. But there's a lot of credentials beyond, you know, the fact that we're female. So we didn't necessarily have role models, too many role models to follow in this function, and that's what we're hoping to be. But we've always just worked hard and not considered gender a barrier. We've never made issues of it unless other people did. And generally the issues that people made were, you know, comments

 

Leighann Lovely  15:00

Right. It's interesting that you, you'd mentioned that you earned your seat at the table, which is what we all need to do is we need to earn our seat at the table regardless of what we're doing. But it shouldn't have to be above and beyond in any way that you earn that seat. But you also had mentioned that there were some places or environments that you, you weren't welcome. Or that it didn't seem like you were welcome.

 

Kathy Miller  15:23

Yeah, mostly Country Club environments. So I had, when I was a executive, it came with a country club membership, because you were supposed to go and take clients golfing, or entertain them, you know, and form those relationships that lead to good, strong, you know, pipelines for sales and growth for your organization and strong relationships with your customers. And one of the ones and in all fairness, they have changed their policy now, but I went and to see the new country club I was at, and I was asked to leave a room that had, you know, a popcorn machine in it and TVs, because it was a room for men only. And you know, this was in the 2010s. So, unfortunately, about that my daughter, who was going to college was super offended and left and didn't go back for a number of years. But they changed the policy after that. But it really did leave an impression, you know, here I'm leading a business. And, you know, I was like, What am I supposed to do? Just go to the lemonade room and send notes back and forth? To the my male customers. So you know,

 

Leighann Lovely  16:47

the door? Yeah, I

 

Kathy Miller  16:48

mean, what's kind of funny about it is when men read the story now, and a lot of them are right, just because they want to understand it. And you can read the book as a lean manufacturing guide to right. So it's not just for women. But that's the most shocking comment we get back is that, you know, they're still, like, within the last 10 - 15 years, places that don't allow women to conduct business in them.

 

Leighann Lovely  17:17

Right. And I was gonna say this was 2010. I mean, I was thinking, Okay, could this have been like in the early 90s, or the 80s, but you're not old enough to have?

 

Kathy Miller  17:28

So are publishers asked if it was 1970?

 

Leighann Lovely  17:33

Right. I mean, it's, it's, and I understand that, yeah, there are some people who are like, well, I want to go to I want to go somewhere where I can just hang out with the boys, I want to, but to make a place a business or a place where that it's that's just, I would think that there's not a place where you're going to conduct mutual business that would attempt to do that anymore now. Yeah, I mean,

 

Kathy Miller  18:02

I haven't experienced it since then, necessarily. But it was still written not that long ago.

 

Leighann Lovely  18:09

Right. No, that really is not that long ago at all. I mean, yeah, I have no comment for that, to be perfectly honest. They, they should be ashamed of themselves that they were even in that day and age. And again, I can understand. There are people who want to go and just hang out with the boys, but then make it known that here's a boy's room, here's a girl's room. If you want to conduct business, however, here's where you go, you know, and they should call them locker rooms that that's the voice

 

Kathy Miller  18:44

Well, the good news is, the good news about being the only female in most situations was you know, during the meeting breaks, I didn't have a line at the restroom. Right? There you go. There were certainly advantages, right?

 

Leighann Lovely  19:00

Oh, yeah, what cars nowadays you wonder as our locker rooms gonna become just one gigantic room. I you know, I have your, again, nobody can see this, but I can see the faces that are being made at this point. I you know, and 10 years from now, everybody's gonna go oh, you remember when locker rooms were separated? Oh, no. I mean,

 

Kathy Miller  19:25

I think the thing the thing is about Shannon and myself. We don't tend to dwell on the obstacles. A lot of people ask about it. There were some hurt feelings about that, you know. And, and sometimes, you know, there's big meetings where there's recreation and almost always the activities offered are golfing, skeet shooting and fishing, you know, and many women do enjoy that. I don't, you know, so. You asked about working harder. Not really. But there were certain situations where you had to try to fit in. Yeah. So

 

Leighann Lovely  20:06

yeah, absolutely there. I mean, still to this day regular golf outings, the nice thing that I see a golf outings today is that it's it's not so much about the golf as it is about the community. And you see a lot of women walking on the course, with a foursome. And they're like, I shot a couple holes. Now I'm just hanging out with the team. And it's become more of, hey, if you're going to a golf outing, you have to accept that this isn't going to be a serious, serious game, or yeah,

 

Kathy Miller  20:37

there's lots of ways to make things inclusive, you can play best ball. And there's lots of amazing women golfers I don't want to say that, you know, there's not at all. But I think the main thing, especially in a world where we are striving to be more diverse to drive diversity of thought and more inclusive. You know, we just need to give a little bit more thought to those types of things. Yep.

 

Leighann Lovely  20:59

No. Now, you had mentioned a little bit Shannon, especially you and you had mentioned a little bit about being very successful at driving that cultural change. Mm hmm. Tell me a little bit more about that.

 

Shannon Karels  21:14

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's something I definitely learned a lot of this from Kathy and our time together, too. But, you know, a lot of what she taught me was the importance of listening, the importance of building relationships, and, and I knew, I knew that was always important to me early on in my career, I knew that it wasn't going to be me getting it all done, it was all about the people around you, that help. And so when I started leading plants, I just, my team was so important to me. And I wanted them to be successful. And so I spent a lot of time doing little things that would bring us together and we would always have each other's backs. And, you know, I would get we would get to know each other. Every quarter, we would do a an ops luncheon. And I would force them to play some game where we all got to know each other, you know, tell something about yourself. Nobody knows. Or we did one where they had a draw out a piece of paper a bunch of questions and in answer the question, and just silly things like that. But I felt it really important that the more we know each other as people and less as our jobs, the more successful we will be. And driving that type of culture change is really the first and final step of driving any type of business transformation. It's all about trust and respect for each other.

 

Leighann Lovely  22:32

You're, you're so right. And it's funny that you use the word I would force them to. Because in the beginning, it's always they walk in, gotta know, you got to play this game. But at the end of it, everybody always walks out with a smile on their face. Yeah. And as you see that cultural change. And again, I'm not speaking of somebody who's driven that cultural change, I'm speaking from somebody who's experienced that cultural change happening around me and being one of the people who's seeing it, you know, with my co workers and going, Wow, I'm feeling so much happier, because people are really starting to get along, and I'm getting along with people. But you know, you walk in going, Oh, another one of these games. Yeah, I have to do this. You know, guess who this is with these deep. But as it happens, you're going this is this is fun, that I'm enjoying this I in you know, and you do you get to know people you get to. And the more you get to know people, the more you like people, the more you want to do better at the company, the more you're invested in the company, and the harder it is to leave the company. And I always bring it back to retention because I'm a recruiter, I'm in HR. You know, companies always ask how, you know, hey, how do I hire somebody? How do I train somebody? How do I get these people to stay? And it always for me comes back to retention. And what you said is, is that's it culture happy? retained?

 

Shannon Karels  24:01

Yeah, that's, and that's not to say, Leighann, that it's all you know, I say this a lot. But it's not all rainbows and unicorns every day, right? Like, Oh, of course. You know, Kathy, and I drive a high level of accountability and high expectations of our teams. You know, we set those we set, we set that up front, it's not a moving target. It's, here's here's the expectations, I expect you to meet them if you can't, let's have a discussion about it. It's not, you know, this dictatorship, but it is, it's a very fine combination of that structure of accountability and relationships that drive performance.

 

Leighann Lovely  24:35

Right, happier employees stay. And if you create genuine relationships with your employees, even the worst company will keep employees and I'm not saying that you are have bad companies, but employees follow great leaders. They I mean, and if you can be a great leader and you leave that company Many employees will start going, I wonder if they have an open position where she went. I mean, it's, it's just human nature to want to follow the light. And if you, if you are the light, then you will be followed because you have a tendency to create and spread your light around. It's just that's, that's human nature.

 

Kathy Miller  25:23

So positive relationships are so powerful. Yes, they are everywhere in life, including the workplace.

 

Leighann Lovely  25:29

Yep, absolutely. And, and it's, it's interesting what one negative person can do in an environment, and how quickly that can spread. So it's, you know, sorry, um, I like I have a tendency to go off on tangents.

 

Shannon Karels  25:47

Like, you're okay.

 

Leighann Lovely  25:49

I am a complete and total nerd when it comes to talking about HR and culture and all that good stuff. Okay. So tell me about ops sisters, you know, I don't want to spoil the book, I want people to, you know, read the book, I'm excited to read the book. So tell me a little bit of the the key highlights and what people are going to get out of this, not only from learning more about you, but you know, you talk about it being kind of a lean manufacturing guide. So tell me a little bit more about it.

 

Shannon Karels  26:19

Yeah, and ancestors is really, the book is really a subset of ancestors. So Kathy, and I found it off sisters, actually, after we wrote the book. And the name really signifies us. I mean, we really are, you know, sisters at heart and these operational leaders. So we wanted to inspire other up sisters to come up through this industry. So that's how that all started. And, and app sisters in itself is, you know, we wanted to expand on the book, and take our learnings really, from what we went through whether it was through lean methodology, cultural change, being women in leadership, coaching people, we wanted to take all of that and expand that to continue to teach outside of just the book. So we, that's really a lot of what we do. And our and everything is listed on our website. So we'll do anything from we're doing training on meaningful lean transformations, we offer coaching from any leaders in manufacturing, from team leaders all the way up to VPS. And we really just want to work with companies that need help and a transformation in terms of you using meet lean methodologies and implementing inclusive cultures. So that's what ops Sisters is about, in the book touches on all of those things in some way as part of the story. So we're really pulling from our experience in a real world situation, and trying to transfer that out and expand that to more people in the world.

 

Kathy Miller  27:49

It's not a real prescriptive book, you know how most business books are, these are the three things you must do, or the five things you must do. It's, it's our story, and there's a lot of learnings in it. But stories are so powerful, right? Because people can see themselves in the characters. So I got an email the other night from a lady who tracked me down who I don't know, and she said, I got your book as a gift. And I'm a quality manager at a plant. And I just laughed and cried through the whole book, because I could really feel those experiences, many of which are similar, you know, to what I've had, so just thanking us. And so, you know, we really want to teach through touching people's hearts, right, and letting them know that by having meaningful relationships and creating vision and mission and purpose for people beyond their own individual goals is really what gets results and, you know, makes the experience so much worth having.

 

Shannon Karels  28:53

Well, and people can learn from some of our mistakes, maybe to

 

Kathy Miller  28:57

accelerate the journey for others.

 

Leighann Lovely  29:01

That's great. You know, the best way to learn is through that of other people well, or from your own mistakes, but why learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from that of other people. And, you know, you're offering such an amazing life story, life journey, in so many ways. That's amazing.

 

Shannon Karels  29:25

Thank you.

 

Leighann Lovely  29:27

So we are almost at time. And before we get there, I would love to ask you this the question of the season. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why? Kathy, why don't you go first

 

Kathy Miller  29:48

So it's that point that I already told you. You know, if we separate the being a working mom, right and working through all of those things that that was is a big deal as well. But from a purely career standpoint, it was when I got called in and was put on a special assignment. And like I said, I really did not want to go on a special assignment, I wanted to go the traditional path. And here I had the opportunity to learn from giants in the industry. And it changed the whole trajectory of my career. So that was my pivotal moment was being open and saying, Okay, I'm going to do this non traditional thing you're asking me to do. And, you know, this book wouldn't be here had it not been for that moment, and someone taking a chance on me to try something different and non traditional.

 

Leighann Lovely  30:39

And sometimes fate steps in and makes decisions. Yep. Makes your decision for you. Yeah, yes. And what about you, Shannon?

 

Shannon Karels  30:50

I was a, that was a little bit different. And and I say this, with all honesty, not just because Cathy's, you know, my friend and business partner, but mine was when I started working with Kathy and our sensei, Rick Harris, and I had already been exposed to lean a little bit and really believed it was the way to run these manufacturing businesses, if you can do it, right. And it wasn't it yes, they taught me the lean methodology and the Lean tools, which I then took on to be able to successfully run other manufacturing facilities. But they taught me about what it is to be a true leader. And, you know, I was pretty young in my career. And I had, I would say, I was relatively high, strong and very high demand type of an individual with very high expectations for myself and everybody around me. But I learned how to be you know, take that and not be an individual contributor and really be the leader, I wanted to be in that moment where I was allowed to participate on that team and help drive that transformation is what changed my career for me.

 

Leighann Lovely  31:54

And that's awesome. That's and to continue to work with, you know, somebody who you feel has been a pivotal, you know, person in your in your life is is a gift. Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you very much for sharing that. I thank you both for coming on and talking with me today. You You both have truly an amazing story. And an obviously it is a gift that the the two of you came into each other's lives at the time that you did, because you have obviously lifted each other up to make each other more successful throughout your careers and you continue to be well, like sisters. That's right. So again, thank you so much for your time today.

 

Kathy Miller  32:36

Thank you, Leighann

 

Leighann Lovely  32:38

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Kathy Miller 

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/kathy-miller-mapp-mba-b32a2839

Personal Website - lnkd.in/efKVZEDw

Shannon Karels

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/shannon-karels-00a7782 

Co-Authored - Steel Toe and Stilettos

Website - opsisters.com 

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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