Understanding Both Side Is Important especially As An Attorney

Lori Goldstein has been an attorney for just short of 40 years, this offers her a unique perspective on how to serve her clients. She has an intimate understanding of both the employee side and the employer side and works to find a middle ground. This is an amazing conversation that dives into Metal health awareness in the workplace, non-competes and so much more. Join me for a great conversation with this brilliant women.  

 

Contact Lori

Website - lorigoldsteinlaw.com

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/lori-goldstein-745a2812

Phone - 847-624-6640

 

Leighann Lovely  00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann lovely. Let's get this conversation started.  We have a great show for you today. I've got Lori Goldstein. She has been an employment lawyer since 1984. She has a unique business and perspective representing both business owners and employees through her solo practice after receiving her undergrad and law degree from the University of Illinois, Lori work as a management side employment and litigation attorney for two midsize Chicago law firms before starting her own firm in 2011. Her advice on workplace rights and issues ranged from discrimination, harassment and retaliation to equal pay leave of absence and wage hour matters. Lori also drafts negotiates and reviews contracts including employment, non-compete independent contractor and severance agreements, employer compliance audits and training including sexual harassment training. Now required for all Illinois employers plus administration claims and defense of charges of employment law violation are also a regular part of her practice. Lori also regularly represents and writes on employment law topics. Lori is practical and passionate about helping organizations and individuals achieve peaceful solutions to workplace issues, find closure and move forward. Giving back to the community is also very important to her. She's held several volunteer and nonprofit board positions including New Trier High School Board of Education Governing Board of the North southern Special Education District. Laurie serves as a board member at Career Resources Center in Lake Forest and currently serves as a board member and CO the liaison of Diversity Equity and Inclusion committee for EP wng professional women's network group and volunteer attorney with the lawyers for the creative arts. She is a member of the American Bar Association and Chicago Bar Association and the Illinois chapter of National Employment Law Association. Lori is always an active member of north north shore law and trusted advisors counsel. Laurie has been honored by several awards including Superlawyers, Illinois 2016 to 2023 Superlawyers Illinois 100 top lawyers and 2017, 19, 20, 22 and 23 and Super Lawyers, Illinois top 50 Women Lawyers in 2017, 2019 to 2023 rated superb by AVVO and distinguished by Martindale-Hubbell. This is sure to be an awesome conversation, so I can't wait to jump in.  Welcome Lori. I'm so excited to have you join me today.

 

Lori Goldstein  04:08

Thank you, Leighann. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

 

Leighann Lovely  04:11

Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling the audience a little bit about yourself. And yeah, go from there.

 

Lori Goldstein  04:18

Sure. So I'm an employment lawyer. I have been one for 39 years and love what I do. The first 27 years I spent at two different midsize downtown Chicago law firms representing the management side. So working with HR mostly and representing employers. In 2011, I started a solo practice representing employers as well as employees and all of my employer clients came with me so it was a good start. And then I had the the newness of representing employees, which was a little scary, but I love it. And I love doing both sides. and, it gives me great perspective, I generally get respect from the other side, whichever side I'm sitting on, because I start out by telling them, I sit in your seat. So I'm not one of these scary, you know, opponents, and I'm very practical. I'm honest with my clients, and I just tried to get to resolve disputes get to some resolution, so people can get closure, not have to be in court. I enjoy the variety of what I do different issues, different situations, as you know, in HR, you could probably write a book. And there's different laws that apply, depending on where the company is where the employees are. No two days are alike. And, and I'd love to do this. Talk about employment law topics present right on them. I'm a big networker as you are. It's great connecting people, we were connected, which I was so appreciated. And I love to meet people learn about your stories, find ways that we can connect each other and try and align through our work and services and even through personal hobbies or interests. So that's, that's my professional side. And personally, I'm a mom of two adult daughters. I'm married to an attorney, that guy I met in law school, so Oh, wow. So you've been married for how many years? It'll be 36. In September. So that's,

 

Leighann Lovely  06:35

I love hearing I love hearing that. Because, you know, today, it's, it's an I was just saying to my husband, it's sad to see, you know, now I'm in my 40s, or my early 40s. And it's sad to see, you know, marriages ending. And, and I celebrate the ones that, you know, have that lifelong, you know, lifelong bond, we can all hope that they'll lifelong bond, right?

 

Lori Goldstein  07:02

I was gonna say staying power. But that's sometimes that's what it is,

 

Leighann Lovely  07:07

well, staying power. I mean, I hate I'll tell you that sometimes, that's what it's about, like, just buckle down and go through the storm with each other. Because if you can make it through the storm, then you can make it through anything, right. And definitely being an entrepreneur being, you know, just getting through the grind some time is, is hard. But if you can make it through the hardest times, then. Anyways, I digress. So, you know, I wanted to have you come on, because one, I love that you work on both sides, because I believe that it gives you perspective, right? You know, as a, as a recruiter, working in the HR industry, as a salesperson that has that, that works directly with the companies and being somebody who also came from the corporate HR. I've seen the pains. And then as the recruiter, I also see the pains and the frustrations of the candidates who are experiencing the interviewing process. But I also see why on the employer side, sometimes it takes a long time to make those decisions. So when you're working on both sides of the fence, I feel like it, it can make you a more powerful force at whatever job you're doing. Because you you understand and you can have empathy. You can also be smarter and be able to figure out what the other side is doing as opposed to

 

Lori Goldstein  08:37

Right. Right, usually know what you know what their thinking is, or you can send your client, you know, if I were representing the employer, here's what they're probably hearing that this is why they're doing what they're doing and try and come to, and what I just said to an opposing counsel today, you know, hopefully we can get to a resolution, which means neither of our clients will be happy, because that's what a good settlement is. Everyone has to give something up. Right? And that's how you reach I mean, in every relationship.

 

Leighann Lovely  09:08

So, right, you give a little bit to ultimately end or get what you want in the you know, in the end, really, and that's what it's a compromise.

 

Lori Goldstein  09:20

Right. I think that early isn't enough to be practical.

 

Leighann Lovely  09:24

Every relationship isn't that's pretty much a compromise in some way. You just, you know, it's, you ultimately can deal with that so well, excellent. So why don't we dive in? Why don't we start off a little bit with what what's the question everybody's asking. So what in your line of work has changed over the last couple of years? I mean, I'm assuming that there has been quite a bit.

 

Lori Goldstein  09:48

Yes, many changes. I mean, you know, we all lived through, you know, this new pandemic and how it affects life and how it affects families and the work Place and work and, you know, we all have still, you know, have the effects of that. The HR people, I mean, I, you know, my employers were so overwhelmed with questions, you know about what's the right way to do things safely, legally? What do I have to do? What can I do? And the laws kept changing? And you know, and the laws were new. So we were all navigating them together. I mean, I, luckily, I have a good group of colleagues who are employment lawyers, and we would be on the phone or emailing all the time. How are you handling this? Because the laws come out? And then there's a lot of but what about this, there's a lot that's lost between, you know, between the lines, and we have to kind of make it up until they come out with regulations, or some guidelines that explain what it all means, right? So we went through that. Then there's, you know, the work life balance that companies learned about, and I like that part of it that companies, employers really, more and more understanding managers more, much more understanding that we all have lives and things happen. And we have to kind of be flexible. So there were disability accommodations that became more prevalent, the work from home, hybrid, you know, all these different structures of schedules and locations for work. We dealt with the great resignation. And as a recruiter, you know, attracting and retaining employees is huge. And I know the numbers, you know, we just got the new unemployment numbers, and they're up again, for the for the country. But there's still so many jobs that need to be filled. So I think that's good news.

 

Leighann Lovely  11:48

Well, and it's funny, I was just talking to somebody about the, you know, the unemployment numbers and the amount of jobs that are open. And I feel like you can't really just simply accept that as being completely accurate.

 

Lori Goldstein  12:04

Right?

 

Leighann Lovely  12:05

There's so much more, there's so many. And in the past, yes, I would have said, Okay, these are numbers. But there's so many more layers that go into those numbers right now. Because, right, well, ours are on the move, and there's retirements and there's so many things that are happening, like daily,

 

Lori Goldstein  12:30

right. And there's more options, because because of all that, we have more people that are now entrepreneurs, we have more more people, you know, that forming small businesses and becoming new business owners and new employers. So it's a whole new world and a lot of a lot of opportunity. And I think another thing that changed was companies focusing more on the perks, and the benefits for work life balance, to attract and retain parental leave has seemed to be one of the hot hot ones.

 

Leighann Lovely  13:04

Absolutely parental leave. I mean, more and more companies are going to unlimited vacation for individuals,

 

Lori Goldstein  13:12

right?

 

Leighann Lovely  13:14

I never imagined that in the past. But there, I get it like they're trying to combat for me. I mean, what, as of the first of the year, I became an entrepreneur, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I can take vacation anytime I want? Well, not really, because no,

 

Lori Goldstein  13:33

right? It's a whole world

 

Leighann Lovely  13:34

It's a hole, right? I'm probably not going to be taking a vacation without having my cell phone glued to my hand, you know, for the next three years. But you know, the rise of the unlimited vacation for some of the smaller organizations, or for some of the larger organizations, depending on the type of business they are. I mean, you still have the manufacturing companies that just can't afford to do something like that. But, you know, the rise of, of mental health awareness, we have the rise, and you had mentioned that the rise of parental leave, because now all of the sudden people are going wait a second, you know, the most important thing in my life, you're going to tell me that I have to be back a week later. Or, you know, just because I'm the dad doesn't mean that my life just changed, or what happens if you have a, you know, a gay couple. Does that mean like because they didn't, physically to birth? Right? Exactly. Correct. And these are all things that are now all of a sudden, like, hey, wait a second, we adopted No, none of us are neither one of us had the, you know, went through the physical. Why is it about the physical aspect that you're allowing us to recover from? It's not that's not what it was ever or supposed to be about? It's supposed to be about bonding time.

 

Lori Goldstein  14:55

Exactly. And I have to explain that to companies all the time when they usually they want, either will they want me to review or draft a maternity leave policy? Or they send me one that says, basically, the mother gets three months and the father gets two weeks? And I said, No, there's law. I mean, there's cases, Estee Lauder got, you know, she had to settle a big case. You can't you can't even use primary and secondary caregiver anymore, because you can't really these days, everyone's getting involved. So, right. Why? Why would we identify a primary and a secondary, because that all of a sudden becomes discrimination on? Well, who determines that? Right? It's hard to determine. And often the, it's just assumed that the female is the primary. And that's, that's discrimination.

 

Leighann Lovely  15:48

Correct. And it's funny that you bring that up, because my husband actually shifted his job schedule after we had our child so that he would be only working three days a week, and staying home with our daughter, you know, to have those days so that we could cut costs on childcare.

 

Lori Goldstein  16:06

It makes a lot of sense,

 

Leighann Lovely  16:08

Right? So he really became more of the primary and me as the secondary working full time. I mean, so

 

Lori Goldstein  16:16

That's been a great, that's been a great benefit. I was talking, excuse me to another attorney recently, a partner at a law firm. And she said, not only for female attorneys, but for women in so many industries, the whole pandemic, and this hybrid work and the fact that, you know, you can your husband can be at home or your your significant other can be at home, and at three o'clock, they can pick the kids up from school, and we can really balance because you don't all have to be somebody downtown every day.

 

Leighann Lovely  16:46

Right. Right.

 

Lori Goldstein  16:48

It's wonderful.

 

Leighann Lovely  16:48

Now, have you seen some companies start to make a shift back to the office?

 

Lori Goldstein  16:54

I have? You know, it really depends. I mean, I think the legal industry, for some reason is being more strict about it than some of the others. And then it depends on the philosophy of the people that are there. Sometimes it's hard to attract or retain the attorneys or the employees, unless you give them work from home or hybrid. That's a factor, which is bad. But I have seen it, I've seen some that are either saying we all need to be back at least three days a week, and others that are suggesting it but not requiring it. But downtown Chicago is getting crowded again. But it's still pretty, you know, never what it was right. About where you are.

 

Leighann Lovely  17:43

Well, and it's obviously being in the recruiting world. It's it's hit or miss depending on the the company, some companies are going yeah, we'll do this 100% hybrid, other companies are saying, Nope, we want the people back in the office. And then there are other companies out there going, we really don't care. The person wants to work remote. They have the work remote. But I have seen it more. So it like an industry. If they're, if they have a large amount of workforce that has to work on site, they are trying, right, they are trying to bring even the office people in on site as well. And I think that has to do with fairness, right? If you're, if everybody on the manufacturing floor is required to come in, because they have to be here, because that's where the work is done, let's make sure that the office people are also on site to support those individuals. Right. To me, that makes sense. Like,

 

Lori Goldstein  18:41

I agree, I agree.

 

Leighann Lovely  18:43

This is a company that has to, you know, function all on site. So let's make it fair for, you know, the people who are in the manufacturing floor to have a presence where if they need to talk to HR, they can walk in and have a conversation with HR. That doesn't mean that that company shouldn't also make accommodations for, you know, an HR person who says, Hey, can I work from home one day a week? Because XYZ, great,

 

Lori Goldstein  19:09

Right? But you just have to be flexible, but Right, be fair, and let people have a voice and it's good for morale. And it's also good for the collaboration and the camaraderie which I feel like a lot of the younger workers these days don't understand. They don't know what they don't know. And so they feel like they can work completely remotely, never need to go in and meet with their boss or their team or you miss so much. And I know that having worked in offices for you know, years,

 

Leighann Lovely  19:41

some of my best friends now are people that I met early on in my career, whom I met me and the reason I became so close with them was because I met them in person we we hung out we had lunch together we met for drinks after work and that we built that camaraderie at that time, and we learned from each other by bouncing ideas off each other after hours when I was in my young, early day career, and I feel like that really helped drive me into the next stage of my career. And, and part of me thinks, you know, for some of these young professionals, like how are they going to get that learning, because a lot of that happened after hours, a lot of that happened on lunch, you know, now, as a, as a seasoned professional, I know where to go to get that camaraderie I go to networking events, or I have friends who are business owners, so I know where to go to get that additional support. But these younger individuals, where do they go? Where, right, if they're working from home, you know, they close their computer, at the end of the day, they unplug.

 

Lori Goldstein  20:53

They need Mentors, they need to be observing to I mean, it's not they need to, you know, to be just observing others doing the work or doing or being on a client call or things like that, where I know, there were a lot of times, I mean, it was called FaceTime, you know, as a young attorney, you'd have to be there, you know, 10 hours a day and on Saturdays, and part of it is, you know, that's just a requirement. But if you're there, and a partner walks by and says, Hey, how would you like to come in and do this meeting? Or you can you work on this project, if you're not there, you won't get the assignments, and you won't have that power.

 

Leighann Lovely  21:33

Right, that and that makes sense. And it's different for, you know, industry to industry, obviously, and, and that's the other thing, you know, as a young, I wanted to be seen, I wanted to have, you know, the, the head of my department walked by and see that I was there, that I was, you know, grinding and I was, you know, doing the work, and I was putting in the hours and I was making things happen. We have a different community of young professionals coming up, and they see, and are experience experiencing the professional industry very different than we did.

 

Lori Goldstein  22:13

That's true. Well, they're, they're all electronic. I mean, you know, when I first started, we didn't have really, you know, we weren't on cell phones, and you really couldn't have a lot of we weren't on Zoom meetings. So you're either in person or I guess you are on your, you know, from someone's your house phone to somebody else's right.

 

Leighann Lovely  22:31

I didn't get my first cell phone until I was an adult. So, I mean, and I grew up with what a parents who had, you know, a car phone. I mean, it was like, installed in that was like, really? I mean, it was this big, right? It was huge. And I used to pretend, like to talk on it when I was like, pick it up. But like, half the time, it didn't work like they were you get that? Do you do do this color? Yeah. Outside the right. area outside the area? Right. I mean, but yeah, I mean, the only way you could be in front of your manager, or was to physically be in the building. And they needed to get a hold of you. You had to be at home for them to call you.

 

Lori Goldstein  23:20

Right. That's true. Right? Yeah, it's not the same, right?

 

Leighann Lovely  23:25

No, absolutely not. I mean, my first email account, I never, I mean, I checked it like twice or three times a week. Now I have 10 email accounts that I check 20 times a day.

 

Lori Goldstein  23:43

Right. I know. Good and bad, too. All right.

 

Leighann Lovely  23:46

We're bombarded constantly with electronic information.

 

Lori Goldstein  23:50

Right.

 

Leighann Lovely  23:50

So this is obviously one of the hot topics we just came out of May, which is mental health, mental health awareness month. I, you know, I'm assuming that this is something clients come to you on a regular basis about how do we handle you know, one, if somebody in our, at our company, approaches us and discloses? And also if somebody, you know, has something going on? So, and it's, I mean, this is just something that people are talking about, I'm assuming that companies come to you and say, how do we, how do we do this? How do we handle it?

 

Lori Goldstein  24:32

Yes, all the time. And the good thing is, usually they want to do the right thing. The companies do, but you know, they don't know what the laws are or what the requirements are, how you're supposed to handle it. Because there's issues of privacy and you know, who needs to know what and what don't you know, what are the laws the, for example, the disability discrimination laws, which people pretty much know you shouldn't discriminate or harass based on a disability. But there's accommodation requirements too. So you're supposed to reasonably accommodate somebody with a disability, if that would enable them to do the essential functions of their job. So you don't have to, you know, change major parts of it. But you know, if a different chair would be better, or somebody needs to take Friday's off for kidney dialysis or whatever, you know, accommodations there are, that's something that companies need to deal with. And they saw that a lot during the pandemic, because people were asking for accommodations from the vaccine mandates. So suddenly, even companies that hadn't dealt with this before, we're dealing with it. I also see, I mean, the mental health industry is just growing so fast. We have a lot of mental health issues, because of the pandemic affects our society. We have more telehealth now, which is great, because there's more access. I think there's more awareness and understanding and less of a stigma on for mental health. And a lot of my new employer clients during the last couple of years, our mental health practices, they're either small ones that are growing us people that are leaving a company and want to know what they can do with their non compete or non solicit and starting their own practice. They're all starting to formalize. So where they were all, all the therapists were 1099, when they probably shouldn't have been, they know that they should be making them w two. So we do employment contracts, noncompetes employee handbooks, and you know, they become employers,

 

Leighann Lovely  26:45

right.

 

Lori Goldstein  26:47

And I think I've started to see experts here in there that are providing training, either to HR professionals or within an organization so that people know how to deal with mental health issues from both sides, even as an employee, what are my rights? And I get those calls to why should I disclose this? What do I need to tell them? What you know, I'm afraid I'll get retaliated against. So it's a scary, it's a scary situation. It's not easy. It's usually sensitive. So it's hard for both sides.

 

Leighann Lovely  27:20

And are you finding that more people are disclosing, then? Not?

 

Lori Goldstein  27:29

I think. it seems that that well, it's hard to tell whether more people are disclosing, or there's just more people that have issues, you know, so there's more. So you have more disclosures, because there's now more mental health issues. But I think, I think because of the work life balance, and again, people starting to realize that this is part of life, people are fine with disclosing if somebody calls me and starts telling me about, you know, toxic workplaces and the terrible environment, and they start telling me about health issues and seeing a therapist. And there may be situations that aren't illegal at work, it could be unfair, and a bully, and not because you're of your age or your race, but it's still unhealthy. And so I tell them to hang up the phone, call your doctor, ask them what you need as an accommodation, you may need to take time off, you may need a part time schedule, do that first, your health comes first, I had a client who had a heart attack last year in her 40s because of stress from work. And you know, that shouldn't happen. Right? So people disclose, but others will ask me do I have to disclose to my new employer? And if you don't need accommodations for a disability, there's no reason to disclose it. And, you know, unless and until you need them, right? If it doesn't affect work, why does anybody need to know?

 

Leighann Lovely  28:59

Right? And that's interesting. But there's also, you know, I've had people who have a lifelong for instance, addiction issue, excuse me, addiction issue. And it's whether you know, that they're, they're fearful of, you know, I've been, I've been clean for, you know, four years, but throughout my life, I've had, you know, issues where high stress environments can cause that, you know, that's a risk factor where I relapse, do I disclose to my company that I have, you know, addiction problems so that if and when I do relapse, they're aware because you can't disclose after the fact. If you were to get fired because all of a sudden you relapse and don't show up to work. So well kind of like the chicken and the egg situation. What comes first, you know, if you don't disclose, and then you get fired, because all of a sudden you relapse? Well, at that point, the employer didn't know.

 

Lori Goldstein  30:10

Right? And you can't say, Well, you did this because I'm disabled, as opposed. Yeah, they didn't know. So there is that, that sometimes you do want to disclose, kind of, you know, to use it as leverage. I mean, just because you have a disability, or you're over 40, or you're of a certain race, you know, doesn't mean that you're going to be discriminated against on that basis. But if, you know, if there's no reason, I mean, people are afraid to disclose because it's, there's always the perception or the possibility of discrimination or harassment, once people do know, right. And I don't know why. But people seem to disclose these to their immediate Manager, which I say never to do tell HR or whoever's handling HR, your boss may never have to know, what you have, what the condition is, what the treatment is, all the boss needs to know is HR says, or the company says, here's the accommodations we're providing, and that's it.

 

Leighann Lovely  31:12

Right. And, you know, for me, personally, you know, I've learned throughout my, my career, and obviously, as a business owner, myself, now I the only person I would disclose to as myself, which I already know, so, but, you know, throughout my career with with somebody who had struggled with bipolar disorder, and for most of my career, it was not something that was talked about, it was not something that people were open to discussing or hearing. So my, you know, my was always, hey, keep it, keep it quiet, go and show the employer that you are fully capable of doing the job that there is, you know, that I don't need accommodations that I'm perfectly and then once I had proven that I was perfectly, you know, normal, I guess, you know, when I'm doing quotation normal, you know, if at what point I felt comfortable enough, it was a conversation that could come after of, you know, a confidant at the company, whether that be with HR, or whether that be with, you know, a an immediate manager that I had had a relationship with, you know, and say, you know, yep, I do, I do have, you know, a mental health, you know, underlying condition. And it was never that awkward, like, I'm like to sit down and tell you about something, it was usually just something that I had gained, they had gained confidence in me, and it would be something that would eventually just come out. But it was strange, because I the, the, the reactions that I had gotten over the years were always so different, although, just because it was still during a different time in which, like, people didn't know how to handle it.

 

Lori Goldstein  32:56

Right. And they didn't know what it all meant, either. I mean, people didn't understand what it meant. And, you know, it was just kind of like with the Oh, with HIV, you know, when that, you know, when AIDS came, and everybody was afraid, you know, we can't have people working. Well, it's not contagious in the workplace. You know, it's so you have, there's a lot of speculation and disability laws, not only prohibit discrimination based on having a disability, also a history of one and just being misperceived as having one right. So you may not be disabled, but if somebody thinks you are because you limp, you know, that's discrimination to.

 

Leighann Lovely  33:33

Right. Right. Right. But you know, and the only reason that I ever disclosed is because if, if I did have an episode, if I did need to, you know, and for me, it was security, because sometimes it was, all of the sudden, I would have an complete and total panic attack. And people would be like, Oh, my God, like call 911. It's like, No, I'm not having a heart attack.

 

Lori Goldstein  33:56

Right, right. Now, it's good that somebody knows how to handle like, in school, you know, you just want them to know, this may happen. I you know, in case of emergency,

 

Leighann Lovely  34:06

Correct, you know, and I remember hearing in this is just my poor mother. So my mom was, she was, she's a manager, she is a manager, I'm not going to disclose the company or whatever. But she was in the middle of an interview, she was interviewing a younger, younger person. Now she coming from knowing, obviously, I have mental health. So she is fully aware of how to deal with somebody with a disability with a mental health issue. But she's in the interview, and she tells that she had She's the manager, she got called away for a second, or was he writing his application? It doesn't matter. Anyways, all of the sudden she heard this, this individual start saying Help, help, help and she walked into the room and he was having a full on seizure. Hadn't even gotten to the point of having a conversation to disclose. My Mom immediately jumped to action was able to hold him in a comfortable position so that he wasn't hitting his ad or, you know, and, and she hired him.

 

Lori Goldstein  35:11

That's great.

 

Leighann Lovely  35:11

But you know, and he afterwards was, you know, humiliated, embarrassed, and, but also completely grateful, like, thank you so much, you know, you, you handled this so extremely well, I'm so sorry. You know, I'm so sorry. My mom's like, why are you saying sorry? Like this? It's not a not a big deal?

 

Lori Goldstein  35:28

They  pick the right person to be the, to be the manager there?

 

Leighann Lovely  35:33

Right? Right. And it's great, right? She's very empathetic, very human person that understands that people are in right, you know, come in all shapes, sizes, and right seller, right, everything else.

 

Lori Goldstein  35:46

And I feel the same way. I mean, I have a big passion for that everybody has their strengths. And everybody pretty much can do something can work. And if you can find a good, you know, good connection between a company and an employee, and people are happy and feel productive. Life is good,

 

Leighann Lovely  36:04

Right? And if more companies were looked at humans as humans, and not humans as like, Oh, here's, here's the next robot coming in, that's going to do this job and then go home and write. Just when we were talking, you had mentioned something else, you know, you you'd mentioned non competes, you write non competes for. So this is another hot topic, because, you know, the Federal Trade Commission has, you know, had this on their radar of should or should they not, and because of the state of the world with all of these individuals, or all of these jobs, open noncompetes inherently stop individuals from being able to leave positions to go to competitors, or possibly higher paying jobs, or start their own business, because they may be under a non compete. Do do you think that I guess one? You know, are they? Are they going to go away? Are they? And I know Wisconsin has been a split state.

 

Lori Goldstein  37:14

I know California doesn't allow them. There's a right. There's a five states that just prohibit non compete.

 

Leighann Lovely  37:20

So Wisconsin is a split state, I know that there's a handful of them out there that will be that won't even hold them up at all. I don't know what Elena, you're in Illinois.

 

Lori Goldstein  37:31

Yes, Illinois, we have a we haven't had a new law or amendment, a January of 2022. That codified a lot of requirements that kind of were requirements under cases. But so we have restrictions, you have to have minimum salary, they have to give you something besides new employment or continued employment, you have to get a signing bonus or so there's a lot of hoops to jump through. But when people come to me and say, non competes aren't valid, are they? It depends, every you know, the lawyers answer, it depends. It depends when you signed it, where you signed it, what state law applies, and there's so many different factors. So, you know, I represent both sides, from the employer side, I can't imagine just doing away with non competes completely, which is what the FTC says. And the NLRB, National Labor Relations Board is starting to say similar things. I totally understand. We don't want to overly restrict people from doing what they want to do. And you have to give them something if you're gonna make them sit at home or not be able to do that same type of job. But how does a company protect, you know, their goodwill with clients and the business they've built? And some the some people feel and I think the FTC thinks that all you need is an NDA, you know, of a non non disclosure. So you can't you have to keep confidential information. You can't disclose it or use it in other places, that they think that that is enough, you know, that and some intellectual property clauses that we don't need a non compete, and we don't need something that says you can't take our clients for a year or two. I still think we need them. But I don't think you have to give them to everybody. And I think people should get something for it. So I'm torn because I'm depending on what side I'm on. I represent a lot of individuals now with non competes that seem to me that there are overbroad. I, it's hard to believe they'll get enforced, but we can never know what court it's going to go to what that judge is going to think whether the we're going to apply the law that's in the contract from the state that state or the law where the employees working. So there's so many ifs, right, I can never tell somebody, no this is not going to get unforced.

 

Leighann Lovely  40:01

It's, it's so interesting. And I agree with you, if we were to just wipe every single one away, that would be utter chaos.

 

Lori Goldstein  40:11

Yes.

 

Leighann Lovely  40:11

I mean, I have a feeling that there would be a whole lot of people out there that would be like, like celebrating and running around like crazy, you know, cats, living dogs, or what is that Zayn?

 

Lori Goldstein  40:27

Right. But it's a free for all

 

Leighann Lovely  40:29

Right, it's a free for all like, and I mean, I truly do it. But I also understand that if we wiped him away completely, it would it there, there is the likelihood that it would damage. A lot of companies out there, because they have spent a ton of money, making sure that you know, their clients and everybody, that all is secure. And rep. However, I'm also for the people that, and if you really dig into that, and you read it, and I'm sure you have, and you know, there are some people who have been locked in to a specific job for a very long time and have have lost the ability to make more money, or individuals who have left their industry completely and had to take massive pay cuts, right weighed out these non competes, right? And, and then, you know, a year or two later, years later, couldn't find, you know, an opportunity back where they were and it, it was a detriment to their career. And that I don't believe is right or fair.

 

Lori Goldstein  41:40

Right, there has to be a balance, really, I mean, I was talking again to another attorney today for a company over a noncompete that my client has. And he said to me, you know, listen, this guy's in sales, we're not trying to stop him from going somewhere and doing sales, which is what he's strong and just don't do it in this industry for a year, he can go to, you know, a health care industry and do it. So I think that, you know, for the most part, companies aren't looking to screw their former employees and try to prevent them from, you know, going to places and not getting, you know, doing things that they should be able to do. For the most part, sometimes they do, sometimes they're unreasonable. They have overbroad clauses, they don't care how much money they're going to spend to, you know, to try and enforce. And the Illinois law now says that if a company Sue's on a non compete or a non solicit and loses, they have to pay the employees attorneys fees, which was never the case, it was only one sided the other way.

 

Leighann Lovely  42:43

Right? Well, and I agree with that, though, I agree with that. I totally agree with that. And I also, I disagree with the fact that you shouldn't be able to kick somebody out of their industry, I, I'm against that, like if, if you've been in especially help, let's say it's medical device sales. If you have a lot of these individuals who are in medical health, device sales, or medical sales in some way, a lot of them will have a degree in biology or in science or in something. And that's why they like that type of sale. And a lot of them know all the players. And that's why they're so successful at it. So to go to that individual and say, sorry, you can't sell in this industry, go sell in something else manufacturing or HR, or there,

 

Lori Goldstein  43:39

But for the same reason. That's why the companies are worried and want to enforce this because these people have developed and we're worried they're gonna hurt us they could. So I think it's, I think the compromise is to have that a year that you can't solicit away the clients and the prospects that you dealt with. And that should be fine. Go anywhere you want. Competitors understand, Okay, we have to keep you away from that list for a while, but we want you right,

 

Leighann Lovely  44:06

I've I've had clients past clients call me when I was still under a non compete, and I've actually had to say to them, Look, I appreciate the fact that you're, you're calling me I really do. And I would love to work with you. But I am under a noncompete and I cannot work with you right now. And they understand Oh, yep, nope, I got it. I completely understand it. And it breaks my heart like, Well, I really loved working with this client, but I have to wait it out for a year or whatever that whatever that is, you know, so they do understand and and that's just, you know, that's what it is. But, again, if a client really likes working with a specific person, Ahh, I'm really split on that. Like, come on, right.

 

Lori Goldstein  44:57

It's a good relationship. Well, I have that client that just went through. And so a lot of the companies have non poaching clauses with their clients. And that's a lot easier to enforce than a non compete. And you know, or there's a damages clause. So if you're going to take the employee fine, but then you have to pay us something, and it usually works. And that should be enough, you shouldn't have to necessarily go after the employee to.

 

Leighann Lovely  45:24

And that, hey, I'm all for that, like, especially in some of these, like really specific industries, I get it like, and I get the I got the confidentiality, the nondisclosure, all of that you have trade secrets that you're protecting, I get that if this employee is going to go directly or competitor and try to sell your trade secrets go after that person, because that's not right.

 

Lori Goldstein  45:46

Right?

 

Leighann Lovely  45:47

I completely understand that. And if you want to work out a deal with, you know, your competitors, and say, Hey, you can hire my employee, but that employee cannot take our clients. And if they do, you're gonna, you're gonna be the one that pays us.

 

Lori Goldstein  46:02

Right?

 

Leighann Lovely  46:02

But don't stop the employee from thriving for their family, because now you're damaging the people, and the people are the ones who are buying from you.

 

Lori Goldstein  46:12

Right? That's true. That's a good point. What's your experience from recruiting for employers that know that this candidate has a non compete agreement? And you know, I've been through those situations where a lawyer takes a look, and the company's lawyer says, We think this is okay, we're not worried about it. But a lot of them won't, they just won't touch that candidate, because they don't want to get trouble.

 

Leighann Lovely  46:36

It depends on each situation. You know, I've had some, some say, Yeah, I don't know that we can get past that. I've had others say, Yep, I think we can work with this will work within the constraints. And, you know, sometimes, even if it's a large company that, you know, the company's in house attorney will meet with that employee and go over the guidelines of, you know, we'll go to bat for you bla bla bla bla bla, providing that you follow these rules, because what I have found is that companies want to do the right thing. And in the majority of the I don't know that I've ever worked with a company that's that blatantly gone out of their way to do sneaky stuff. In fact, if I found out that they were doing that, I would not want to work with them. Right. I see him here. Right. So companies, I think, you know, inherently want to do the right thing and stay within the lines. So I've even worked with companies who will have their in house attorney meet with that, you know, employee, do you understand that you're not allowed to do these things? Yes. Great. We'll take you on, you need to follow your non compete until its end. You know, if if anything were to accidentally happen, we will go to bat for you, blah, blah, blah. But if you color outside of these lines, you're on your own.

 

Lori Goldstein  47:54

Right. Fair

 

Leighann Lovely  47:56

Yeah, and, you know, for the most part, unless, and I don't think I've ever had any company say absolutely not. I've had some companies go this might this might be a deal breaker. And I think that ultimately, the candidate, just it wasn't the right fit. And that, but that usually gets into really high level.

 

Lori Goldstein  48:18

Right,

 

Leighann Lovely  48:18

Like, high level officers.

 

Lori Goldstein  48:21

Yeah, I agree. I've had some where the new employer pays the old employer, basically to take the employee, they buy him out of the contract, but they don't do that for most employees.

 

Leighann Lovely  48:33

Now, that's you're talking about, like the big the big directors, the the very high up individuals or companies. And I'm assuming that that individual also has a contract that they're going to stay at the company for a certain period of time as well.

 

Lori Goldstein  48:48

Right. Right, right. Yeah.

 

Leighann Lovely  48:51

Yeah, yeah. We're not going to buy you out if you only come here for six months.

 

Lori Goldstein  48:54

Right? Right. Exactly.

 

Leighann Lovely  48:57

Yep. Well, we are coming to time, I could sit here and talk to you forever. But we are coming to time. And I do have a question of the season that I would like to ask, you know, what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could.

 

Lori Goldstein  49:17

So, I mean, my job is a solo law practice employment law, which as I said, I'd love I wouldn't change a thing. For the most part, I probably need to delegate more. There are tasks, you know, that I give to a bookkeeper, but I could probably give more to her and maybe bite the bullet and hire a virtual assistant. So, time management is something I would change about my job. But, you know, I love that I talk to clients directly, and they get to talk to me and I'm not, you know, having them, somebody else feel the calls. But it's, you know, it does take time. And in terms of changing the practices As the other employment attorneys have, I wish some were more practical resolution oriented, more objective and, you know, focused on the client's best interest cost sensitive and most error, and that generally leads to better relationships and negotiations and getting to closure. But some of them, you know, some attorneys have either, you know, been raised differently, they're at firms that would rather litigate than settle. And whether you have principles. And so you know, then they play the litigation game or the game where and, you know, it would be so much nicer to really just be practical. Realize, I always say this to the other attorney, our clients hire us because they can't resolve this. So we need to be objective and neutral, you know, advocate for our clients, but their work, they're relying on us to resolve this. So let's be nice to each other. Let's be cordial. So that's, that's a good experience. And a lot of my colleagues, friends I've met through networking end up being somebody I'm ending up negotiating a severance agreement with or things like that. And, again, we are representing our clients and we advocate but I know I have a good person on the other side, who was a good lawyer, and you know, we're going to come to a deal.

 

Leighann Lovely  51:24

Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

 

Lori Goldstein  51:30

So they could call me at 847-624-6640. They could reach me on my website, which is Lori Goldstein law.com, and my email address is lori that a that goldstein@gmail.com.

 

Leighann Lovely  51:51

Excellent. Lori, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been an awesome conversation. I think we've covered some some great content or great topics. So again, thank you so much.

 

Lori Goldstein  52:01

Thank you. Thank you. It was a wonderful engaging conversation.

 

Leighann Lovely  52:05

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

companies, work, employer, non compete, employee, disclose, clients, law, industry, lori, years, hr, individuals, attorney, disability, representing, day, great, illinois, starting

 

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