Let‘s Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation

Hire for Culture, Train for Skill!

Training and development has been a hot topic over the last year as our economy struggles to have enough people to fill the open positions in highly skilled rolls. This weeks guest Pat Riley knows all to well what targeted training can do for organizations or the lack of. Pat is the owner and CEO of New Horizons of Wisconsin a Training and Development company that helps people level up there skills. Join us for a great conversation!
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.  We've got a real treat today. Patrick Riley is the president and CEO of New Horizons of Wisconsin. New Horizons delivers high quality live training to professionals in dozens of technology families. Pat's firm has grown to be the largest in the state annually providing over 10,000 live training classes in over 900 different course titles delivered by certified experts, providing their clients unparalleled, depth and quality of live learning. New Horizons is known for their speed, and quality training and certifications in high demand careers such as cybersecurity, big data, cloud computing, AI and more. In addition to helping his fellow Wisconsinites grow in their understanding, and love of tack, Pat has been fortunate to enjoy over 27 years of marriage to the love of his life. And together they raised four children, and are enjoying their two grandchildren along with their three golden retrievers in Appleton, Wisconsin. Pat is a graduate of the University of Iowa. I've had the pleasure and honor to get to know Pat over the last months, and he is not only an amazing business owner, he's an amazing human. Welcome, Pat, thank you so much for joining me today.
 
Patrick Riley  02:40
I'm happy to be here. Thank you, Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:43
So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Patrick Riley  02:47
Sure. My name is Pat Riley. And I am the CEO of New Horizons of Wisconsin. And we are the state's largest IT and business skills training company. And so what we focus on is helping people upskill themselves to their next level. And so we work both with businesses and helping their people grow, thrive and get certified in technology skills, as well as leadership and development skills. And then a part that of our company that is very near and dear to my heart. We help individuals get into it careers, or business careers. And then our newest division is in the medical career division. And we've been very successful in all of those areas. Because what we're finding in industry today and what they're calling industry 4.0 Is that skills are really the new degrees. And companies are very interested in seeing people with specific skill sets much more than they are a diploma or a degree in a more general area.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:27
And that's that's awesome. First of all, that's That's amazing. Training Development Company is something that I think is a huge emphasis in today's world. I've seen articles coming out with companies that are shifting their funds to putting a huge emphasis on helping their employees, you know, UPS upskill their different individual departments or even offering it to you know, across the entire company. which is, which is amazing. But you had mentioned a couple of different areas. Medical, which is awesome. But I what I really wanted to know is or what I would like love to talk about is what what are you seeing in today's world as far as the the impact? With justice, what has happened over the last couple of, of years on? Because of the COVID? And because of what is transpired? How was that shift impacted your business?
 
Patrick Riley  05:37
Yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting ride, right? There's, there's the old Chinese proverb, may you live in interesting times. And we are certainly living in interesting times. And and, you know, there's some statistics that I have for you today that are that are very challenging. You know, in 2021, more than 38 million Americans quit their jobs. I mean, that statistic is staggering. And, I mean, we can have three podcasts just talking about that. Right. But, you know, you know, you can get into the why, and the wherefores, and all the rest of it. But, you know, in, you know, we've got a lot of demographic, things that are happening, we've got the grain of the baby boomers, we've got declining birth rates. We've got a labor shortage in almost every single industry, it is absolutely going through a massive labor shortage right now. And then we've got this increase of millennials and Gen z's in the workplace. And that dynamic is changing what we're seeing in a recent study, over 83% of HR professionals are reporting recruiting problems, right. There's just not enough people 75% of HR professionals reported a shortage of skills in candidates. Right. And you know, it's just amazing.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:34
And it's wild, too, because obviously, you know, my background coming from the recruiting world, you hear from those hiring managers. Despite those staggering numbers, you hear from them? Yeah, I'd love to interview these individuals, they interview them, they have six out of our seven out of the 10 things that they're looking for. And then they'll come back to me and say, Yeah, they're really great. I love their personality, but I just I don't have time to train them in the other areas. And you go,
 
Patrick Riley  08:07
Yeah you hear that? A lot. Right. Right. And, and the problem with that thinking is, is it takes away from the realities of what we do on a daily basis. Because so much of what we do. And there's, there's, you know, a few years ago, there was they, they started to have this big argument in HR circles and in leadership circles of IQ versus EQ, right, which was really hard, hard technical skills and knowledge, versus what we call soft skills. I really don't like we do internally, at New Horizons, we don't call them soft skills, we call them power skills. Because that's really what they are. They empower people to be able to work with others in more of a leadership capacity than in a tactical capacity. And I think that becomes very, very important. I got a couple more stats for you. 76% of companies say that business leaders would raise four or five out of five point scale of importance to an organization. However, in that same study, only 45% of those companies would rate themselves as a four or five on a five point scale of how well they're doing, of building business leaders within their organization. So that gap, that 30 point gap is exactly what you're talking about. In terms of companies not investing in their own people, right? To get them upskilled. Right, those are,
 
Leighann Lovely  10:08
Right. It's the number of individuals. And now I'm speaking of managers, not necessarily leaders. Because there is a huge difference between a manager and a leader. But the number of managers in management roles that have never had management, training, and lack people skills, and leadership skills is staggering. It's in the end, if you really dive into the statistics on this, even managers will say, without, without shame, without question, they will, will say, I have never had management training. I often don't know what I'm doing. And my company has not offered any type of management training to me. And it's as a, as an HR professional, I'm sure as a, as a business owner, you you sit back and go, What the hell are these companies doing?
 
Patrick Riley  11:20
Yeah, it's very frustrating. I mean, because what we see in our world a lot of times, because what's happened in the last few years is that it is no longer a silo, right? Anywhere. Everything that happens in a business is controlled, or touched, or invested in technology. You know, I like to say to people, you can't buy a hamburger. Today, without technology being directly involved. I mean, when you go to McDonald's, it's technology that is driving the creation of your hamburger. I mean, it's tech that's everywhere in that McDonald's. Not to say that I go to McDonald's too often, but I do like myself a big man. And, and, you know, because all those people are just looking at screens tell him to put the pickles on and all that kind of coffee. All right. So people who started out to be in tech are now finding themselves in leadership positions, or in positions in places like marketing or operations, or leadership positions, positions, they didn't expect to find themselves. And that gap in knowledge is killing organizations, they have to invest in ongoing skill training. We know from from studies that happen in the training and learning and development organ marketplaces. We know that skills have a half life of five years now, technical skills have a half life of only two and a half years, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:16
And that's getting to be constant.
 
Patrick Riley  13:18
It's got to be a constant part of a company's culture.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:24
And I feel like, you know, obviously, my listeners know how old I am, I did refer to it all the time. So I don't, you know, I have no shame in that.
 
Patrick Riley  13:34
I am not gonna ask, well, you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  13:37
I feel like as the older I've gotten the, the shorter that, you know, that's the shorter it gets every single year with how long those those skills last in the tech world, you know, at one time, it was like you could go to you could go in and get your Microsoft training. And you could, you know, that would that would hold out for, you know, five or six years. Right now. Now, right now, it's like, oh, now they come up, and they're coming up with another update in, you know, a matter of two years time. And it's like, if you don't have the newest, you know, knowledge on it, you all of a sudden they have a new button and you're like, what, what is this what, what just happened? Or you're updating? This just happened to me, and this and I know it's happened to a shit ton of other people out there. Updating zoom, I updated zoom, and all of a sudden, everything went completely wonky. And it took somebody else telling me you have to completely remove it from your system, reload it, or you're just you're going to not you're going to have problems and and I couldn't figure that out on my own. I'm an intelligent person. It finally took somebody saying, here's how you fix this problem. I don't know why. But and it happens to us on a regular daily basis. On just simple Things like you using zoom, which is something that I realized how we're talking today. Right?
 
Patrick Riley  15:06
Right. So now in abroad and abroad is not to not to interrupt but in a broader sense, chat, GBT has changed the landscape of technology significantly and eight months ago didn't exist, except for a toy with a very small group of users. Today, it's ubiquitous. And you know, I've even used it playing around with job postings to try to make them more effective for us as we recruit. And it's amazing, quite frankly, when you, when you when you'd kind of dip your toe into this, this AI interface, and its ability to create content. And that didn't exist, you know, on my birthday last year, for goodness sakes, right. So it's incredible the speed at which a technology can disrupt everything that we're doing. And so people who sit back and are not either engaged, or lifelong learners are going to be left behind. And the shift that we are seeing, and it's for, it's for a few reasons, first of all, a bachelor degree used to be your ticket in when I was growing up, you had you and again, I'm dating myself as well, you really had kind of three options. As you were graduating high school, you either went to a four year college, and that was your ticket into the middle class and above. You went to a two year college and you are going to get kind of a kind of a job that maybe you can, maybe you could, you know, parlay that into a four year degree somewhere down the line. He went into the workforce and got a menial labor job, or he went into the military. That was it. Right? Those are your paths. That was it, there was no other, there's no other choice. Now you have a plethora of choices. And what we're finding is the cost of a university degree is is becoming prohibitive for people to be able to go into fields that they want to go into. With skills being so important. Forbes just published an article about six weeks ago. And the title of it was skills are the new degrees. And I encourage your listeners to go find that article on forbes.com. And it talked about how companies like Apple, and Google and Dell, and others, we're now no longer requiring college degrees in their hiring process. If you had skills and certifications, which is what we provide to the state to people in the state of Wisconsin. And it's a seismic shift.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:32
And and this goes along what I think it's about two years ago, maybe about a year and a half ago, I was at a I was at a conference and I listened to the was the CEO of a college speak. And he and he talked about how the enrollment of students was going to be drastically taking a downturn that colleges were going to have to find new creative ways to get students to come to four year colleges. And that the shift was going to be two year colleges because the cost to that was so prohibitive, but this is also a symptom of the fact that we have a huge generation of individuals that went to college graduated around the 2000, the 2005 2006 and they are still in mass debt. And some of them like me, and I've talked about this before have I have a higher payoff amount than what I graduated with, because I graduated in 2008 with my bachelor's degree and subsequently the economy's you know the bottom dropped out. And I took a $20,000 pay cut after 2008 and so many of the parents that now have children are saying wait a Second, we're living in a different world, you don't have to go to a four year college, if your path is XYZ. Now, if you want to be a doctor, if you want to be, you know, a lawyer, if you want to
 
Patrick Riley  20:11
Be an engineer or something like that, I completely agree with you in my world. And this is a bit embarrassing, I feel, but I have four children. And I went to the University of Iowa, and I love I love the University of Iowa, very, I'm wearing an Iowa shirt right now, in fact, and I live in Wisconsin, of course, and my daughter got into the University of Iowa, and she was excited to potentially go there. And I was thrilled as you can imagine. And she's, she wants to be a teacher, she's going to be a teacher, in fact, and I'm very proud of her for choosing that as a as a service profession. And it would be $204,000. For her to attend the University of Iowa, coming out of the state of Wisconsin, for four years, all in room and board. And in all of that $200,000 And with a with my wife and I having four kids, we simply could not afford that. And I I'm ashamed that I can't send my child to the school of her choosing. And it's just a big 10 school, we're not talking about Harvard, or Yale or some, some preppy you know, private college, this is just a public, big 10 school.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:54
There's no shame.
 
Patrick Riley  21:56
I can't I can't afford it. And I'm a CEO. So I look at I look at the average American. And I say to myself, you know, the, the doors to entry now are just ridiculous. Go to another another study, I'll give you another number. Dell Technologies predicted in ninth and 2018, that 85% of jobs in 2030 don't yet exist. And if you think about it, think about all the jobs today that exist, that didn't exist, say seven years ago.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:48
Right? It's
 
Patrick Riley  22:50
A ton of them.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:53
It's because the world is constantly evolving, changing the new fast, so fast, I remember it. And again, I've talked about this before, you remember the time when every when we were talking about automating processes, let's Automate, you know, on the on the manufacturing floor, we're going to have robots. And everybody was like, Oh, my God, we're going to be taking away American jobs. No, we didn't take away any American jobs, what we did was created higher paying jobs for the people who were creating the robots and then maintaining those robots.
 
Patrick Riley  23:28
We created new jobs that paid more required people to upskill or rescale. And if people weren't willing to do that, then they would be left behind. And that is the reality of it. And I, I feel I feel sorry to be the bearer of those news of that, that news. But that's the reality of it. Right. The other side of it is, is that we require a certain percentage of our population to get into the trades, which is also an area that we have a great deficit of people in. And I would love to see more people getting into the trades, rather than going to you know, nothing against Whitewater. I'm just picking that out of a hat, going to Whitewater and getting a degree in, you know, English, we, you know, they'd be much better off going to a Tech College and becoming an electrician, we make way more money.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:33
Right. And we have some amazing tech colleges around here. And I think the reason, and I think the reason that people don't get into the trades as as much as they, they should, is because there's this misconception that they will always be making no more than $25 an hour. Well, now that you know, the new 25 You know, it's it's now you know, 30 or 35 Even more, but there was always this misconception that they were always going to be making the bare minimum just to survive. And that's it's not true. There are people out there who are in the trades who are making 100 120 $550,000 a year because they really there are they've mastered their art, they've become the experts in their particular field. And there's, there's been this misconception around that when we had the shift from, you know, the individuals coming back, you know, from war going into the manufacturing, and then all of a sudden, they were like, nope, in order for you to be a great worker, you need to go to college. And for the longest time, it was, the only thing that my my kids going to do is go to a four year college, and four year college, and that was what was pushed for the longest time. And now for the first time, parents are going no, you don't need to go to a four year college. In fact, do not go there. If you're going to go and spend your four years drinking away my money. And then deciding that you don't want to go into whatever field of study it is. And now you're talking about even a further shift of companies saying you don't have to have that degree. In fact, there are there are people who argue that going and getting that degree, sometimes is worthless to them, because it's some of these some and I'm not going to pick on any particular colleges or whatever. And I'm not picking on the Big Ten's, I'm not picking. But there are some colleges out there, that really all it is is memorization, go read this book, come and take this test, and you get an A, that is not teaching skills, that is teaching memorization. And I don't I if I'm gonna hire somebody, I want to know that they are capable of troubleshooting and thinking quick, I want to know that they are are capable of, of, you know, actual, individualized thinking, and the ability to, you know, actually make independent decisions, not critical
 
Patrick Riley  27:07
Thinking skills, things like that. Those are the types of skills that we we focus on in every one of our programs, we include things like problem solving, critical thinking, people management, emotional intelligent, intelligence, excuse me, service orientation, negotiation techniques, decision making, working in a team, we include all of those skills with every one of our programs, because we feel that that makes every person that goes through a New Horizons program, more well rounded and ready to take on whatever role they have chosen to follow. And we, we feel like if we just teach them the technical skills, we're doing them a disservice. And we give them badges, and for going through that they can take with them. And we give them everything that they need, you know, test prep, practice exams, mentoring, all this all this support for them to be able to go and get industry recognized certifications, which are in my book, that new currency. Because if you can go in to, to an employer and say, Look, I am CompTIA certified in security plus, and CCNA. And, you know, XYZ logistics, we'll just add a fake one. And I can do these types of things. And I have skill sets that align with you culturally, That person is going to get that job, right. And garlis of where they went to school, quite frankly.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:18
I agree. I absolutely agree. And here's the other thing is that companies that are willing to to look around at their employees and say, this is an awesome individual. I love the sky gal. him he she it. You know, if a company is willing to look around at their employees and say I really want to make sure that I'm building a solid team that doesn't leave by offering them the ability to take courses by offering them the ability to grow and to grow properly. Not just saying, oh here I'll offer Do this promotion and then let them fail is not the way. Because I've seen this again and again, at organizations where they're like, Oh, I feel like she might or he might leave. And then they offer him a promotion. And then they fail, because they didn't give him the tools that they needed in order to, to level up, right. So organizations by offering them those, that ability to take the next class that they need, or the next training or whatever it might be in order to develop those skills is the best way to retain your employees. And I, I, I could see it until I'm blue in the face to some of these organizations. And I feel like it's it falls on deaf ears. Well, it's not in the budget, okay. It's not in the budget. So what happens when that employee leaves and you spend the next $20,000 on trying to bring in the right person is it isn't in the budget.
 
Patrick Riley  30:59
It's very interesting the dynamics in it. In my experience, it appears that companies either get it or they don't. And it's an IT is cultural, I'll give you a couple of examples that are real, real world. Examples. Just this Wednesday, I drove down to Madison, and I met with a gentleman, I'm not going to name him because I don't I didn't ask his permission. But he owns six different businesses. He's a serial entrepreneur. And we talked about all of his different businesses, and they're there in a variety things. He's got one in the financial sector, he had a couple in the pharmaceutical and medical industries. Very, very interesting. Very creative, very smart, very smart. And when when we got all done kind of laying out, you know, his his strategy is businesses and the strategy, and all of this, and then we started getting down to the brass tacks, which was what he needed me for. And he's And essentially, what he said is we're growing. But I don't want the wrong people. I want people that fit with me. And then I want to train them on what I want them to know. And essentially, what he was saying, which is what I have learned over 25 plus years in business leadership, is that you can you hire for culture, and you train for skills. That's what successful companies do. And unsuccessful companies will hire for a resume, and then try to make that person fit into their culture. And so, you know, he and I talked a lot about how, and he's working on some pilot programs internally to teach them about their culture. And then we're going to work with them on some of the technical skills that they need to learn. And, and that's, that's how we're going to partner together. But you can't try in my estimation, to make somebody fit into your culture, if their heart is not in the right place. And but you can teach them skill sets that they need to be able to be successful in whatever role you need them to play. I will give another example of a client of ours and I hope that they're not going to get mad at me for this. But we do a lot of work with Northwestern Mutual Life, who I happen to be a customer of as well. Partially because I know how they run their business, they invest in their people. They also invest very smart, by the way. They are not there. They're not throwing money around. They hold us very tight to their budgets. But they do invest in their people in a smart way. And they do it on newer technologies that are specific to their industries. And they do it in groups so that they can they have the group buy in, and they continue to move their teams forward. And they do it in a very smart way. Northwestern Mutual is a very smart company. And we're very proud to work with them. But they're a progressive thing. gave the organization and that's part of the reason I'm a customer of theirs is because I know the insides. I know they do their jobs well.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:10
So I want to go back to the first example that you gave as as hiring for culture and training for skill. And that is extremely, extremely brilliant. And any company that can finally get that, and I wish as, as an HR professional as a as a, somebody with a recruiting background, I wish that more companies would get on board with that. And the number one mistake that especially as companies grow and get larger, is that they for some reason, forget that. Yeah, they say it, oh, here's our culture, and they sell their culture. They sell their culture to the candidate. Oh, this is great. What you know, it's such a positive environment, blah, blah, blah. But they don't ask the individual, what are you looking for? They just assume that this individual wants to come in and will assimilate to their amazing culture, right? The culture that they're selling, which is what whomever is telling them about their culture believes their culture to be?
 
Patrick Riley  36:25
Yeah, when I'm when I'm hiring somebody, I don't, I will look at their resume. So I can get a feel as to what their background is. And then when I'm interviewing them, I put their resume away. And I don't look at it again.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:42
And I've gotten to the point in my career, where I hate resumes, I hate them, they yes, they're a great tool to see if this person is in line with the job that I'm that I'm looking at, or, but it's gotten to the point where people look at a resume, and they think they know the individual.
 
Patrick Riley  36:59
Right I'm trying to look at it as little as possible. And I want to get to know them. I want to know what makes them happy. What makes them unhappy? What what do they want out of life? Where do they want to go? What do they want to do? What are their dreams? What are their aspirations, what drives them crazy? You're all of those kinds of things. That's what I want, I want to get to know them. And what kind of questions they ask, you know, those types of things.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:35
And if more employees were to focus on that, look at the resume and say, yep, this person has, you know, XYZ background. And here's the thing that I that that's really gotten to me in the, in the last couple of years. Somebody's got 15 years of longevity at one company, 10 years at another company. And then all of the sudden, there's this, this, this during the pandemic they've had, you know, a couple of jobs. And then a company says, oh, yeah, I can see the job jumper and I go, What, wait a second. Yes, during the pandemic, we had a large group of people who all of a sudden had maybe one or two jobs or three jobs in there. The world was tipped upside down, and companies were not quite sure what they were doing. And a lot of personal stuff started happening with, with individuals, mental health issues. We had, you know, family issues, daycare issues, your issues. Yeah, I mean, daycare issues were horrific. Anyways, I digress. I'm going on to a tangent here. The point being is that I love what you what you talked about about hiring for culture, training for skill. And if more companies were to can like think that way, we would, they would find a lot less trouble in hiring. Because right now, we are seeing, obviously, like you mentioned, the largest, the largest struggle that I have ever in my career seen with not enough people, way too many jobs. And yes, are we seeing a lot of layoffs happening? They always happen. We're just living in a world where every single thing that happens in the world is then blasted out onto every social media platform, and everybody knows everybody's business. So it seems like it's extremely horrible. These things happen all the time. And yes, we are in a recession right now. So everybody's feeling the pains a little bit more.
 
Patrick Riley  39:42
But well, and inflation is killing people. I mean, we're in a we're in a weird cycle right now adjustment, correct? Where I think the Fed took too long to adjust interest rates and then adjusted them too. too fast and too hard. But that's just my macro economic opinion. But, you know, in the layout, the reason I think the layoffs get so much attention is because they're from such an odd place, places that we're not used to ever laid off Apple, you know, doesn't lay off people, right? Google doesn't lay off people, Amazon, Amazon doesn't lay off people. And when they do it, it's a huge deal. And plus, it's a lot of people, you know, they lay off 10,000 people, that's a, it's a big deal, right? What they don't report on is the fact that our unemployment in Wisconsin is it like 3.1%, last week,
 
Leighann Lovely  40:42
Correct. And that there are massive amount of companies that are still hiring, and
 
Patrick Riley  40:48
Hiring like crazy, right, trying to find people. And when you start to get into the threes, and twos are unemployment, you're now you're now at cyclical unemployment, which means you're getting down to people who just don't, either don't want to work or are able to work. And, you know, because there's a certain percentage of the population that just isn't, isn't interested in working for whatever reason, you know, could be, it could be mental health, it could be, you know, an addiction could be age could be all sorts of things, medical, but at any rate is becoming very, very difficult for people to find people, people that that have what they need. And so, you know, now we have to improvise a little bit. And companies that are smart, will, will pivot. And we had to pivot during the pandemic. And now we're having to pivot as it relates to skill sets. And, you know, we are here to serve the Wisconsin community, both on an individual basis. And by the way we work with all of the state agencies, we work with all of the federal agencies we work with, with the VA, we're VA approved. You know, we work with WIOA, we work with F set we work with Maximus, we work with all of these government agencies to get funding for individuals who want to get into it as a career so that they can get their training from us funded, potentially, if they qualify. And I can't speak to that because I run the qualification process but but there are there are lots of workforce development places and and lots of government agencies that can help them and get get their educations and skill sets paid for and get into these IT jobs that are paying very, very well. You know, my son is is 24 years old, he's making six figures as a software developer. Up in Appleton, Wisconsin, now six figures in Appleton, Wisconsin goes a long way. Now, he's he's married with two kids, but you know, he's so he's feeling the pain of that. So, you know, he's, he's understanding the cost of being a dad, which is, which is hilarious to me. But you know, he's, he's doing just fine, you know, because he focused his intellect and education on it, skill sets. And he's, he's reaping the rewards of that. So the, the, I think the moral of the story, if I could share with people is, you know, work on developing a wide you know, power skill set of being able to work with people, for people, have a servant's heart, at your core, and then go grab good, solid, technical and whatever that means to you. Whether it's engineering, whether it's science, whether it's it, whether it's teaching, or whatever it may be, but go grab those, those technical skills that you need, and you will make yourself so so valuable to an employer, that they will pay you very, very well and they will give you a job that will be rewarding, because that's what we're looking for in life. We're looking for jobs that reward us. Sure financially is a part of it, but But every study, every study, that's that's been done of employees in the last five years, puts puts the financial reward very low on what employees are looking for. They're really looking for a sense of purpose, a sense of community. Training and upskilling opportunities are critical to them. The opportunity to make a difference, all of those things are what people are really looking for. And if you spend time investing in yourself and your skills and your abilities, both out of power, skill level and technical skill level, you will have those opportunities available to you.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:47
That is really well sad. That's, I mean, very well, sad. Now we are coming to time, I feel like I could talk to you forever about this, because I'm very passionate about the idea of of well about continuing education for myself, I believe that if you're not learning something new every day, you're you're missing out on the opportunity to be great. And but like I said, we're coming to time. So the question of the season what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could?
 
Patrick Riley  46:25
Well, as a CEO, I think I could probably speak for every CEO, I'd love to have a crystal ball, and know what the economy is going to do next. Because we're in such such interesting, I've come back to my first day. But we're in such interesting times with inflation and spending. And, you know, a lot of times with organizations training gets cut. That's just the reality of it. And so it's up to us to prove the value of it. And that becomes a little bit more difficult in times of recession, as you said, that we're in. So, you know, the uneasiness of how we're moving forward is something that I would love to change. But to be honest with you, I, I love what I do. I change people's lives through my organization. And the one thing I'll share with you is that in our company, we don't have a mission statement. In our company, we have a passion statement. And our passion statement is that we believe that learning new skills is the fastest way to change a life. And that's what my organization does every day. Traders that do that we have account executives that helped people do that we have people in our career development division that do that. We have people in operations that help people do that. But that's what everybody in my organization is, is focused on. And I am very, very proud to be able to lead an organization that does and that's something that's very near and dear to me. So there's certainly there are days that I would love to be doing something else. You know, there's days like these that you you wish that you were, you know, just digging ditches for a living or something like that, where you can see the fruits of your labor, but boy, I pretty, pretty proud of my team and proud to be able to lead them.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:41
Awesome. If somebody wanted to get a hold of you. How would they go about doing that?
 
Patrick Riley  48:47
Well, I am happy to have people email me. They can email me at Pat dot Riley R I L E Y and yes, it is just like the basketball coach at New Horizons wi.com Or they can they can chat with us on our web page. Or, you know what the heck give me a call my number is 920-205-3589 and I'd be happy to chat with you personally, one on one about what we do and how we do it. And you know, thank you Leanne for having me today and be happy to come back anytime and chat with you about this or or anything else that applies pleasure talking with you today.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:51
Pat, thank you so much for joining me this has been an amazing conversation and you know what your organization does and and how you offer, you know, the ability for individuals to to upskill and and really be able to step into new careers with some of the programs that you offer is amazing. So, if you are looking to get in touch with Pat Riley and his team, you can also check him out on his website, which will be on the show notes. So check that out. Again, Pat, thank you.
 
Patrick Riley  50:21
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, have a wonderful day.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:25
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact –
E-mail – pat.riley@newhorizonswi.com
Website – https://www.newhorizons.com/wisconsin/home
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-horizons-it-training-of-wisconsin/mycompany/
Phone number – 920-205-3589
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, companies, skills, jobs, college, individuals, training, wisconsin, years, talked, organization, skill sets, world, business, employees, degree, hiring, pat, technical skills, upskill
 

Ownership is Hard, Hiring is Harder, Work life Balance - UGH!

Robin Elario to the leap into owning her own business in 2017 and since then has learned the roller coaster of business ownership. From the hiring, firing, training, and retention she has learned what it takes to make it work, but most importantly to find a work-life balance for herself while still maintaining a great culture for her remote employees. It is clear that she is doing something right so I would tune into this great conversation
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann. Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
I have a great conversation with a business owner today Robin Elario. Robin has a passion for helping people her decision to purchase an existing Assisting Hands, homecare business came out of her desire to make a difference and help people in a way she wished was available for loved ones in years past. And now as a business owner, I have the opportunity to talk with her about the struggles and triumphs she has experienced.
 
Robin Elario  01:40
So I have been in business five and a half years, I bought my business existing in 2017 and June did not have experience in this field, we have an in home care, non-medical agency where we help elderly folks disabled folks in their home with activities of daily living to help them stay independent. And the goal is to remain at home and happy where they should be. I had family members way back when that really would have benefited from these services. So when I saw this opportunity presented to me, I kind of jumped on it. I love helping people, it's kind of my passion. And then to think that I could have helped family members back in the day, and couldn't, and saw this as an opportunity to be able to kind of pass it on to other folks and help other people navigate through some hard times. And five and a half years later, here I am.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:42
That's awesome. And I I didn't even get a chance to say thank you so much, Robin for joining me today. And that's it's it's an amazing, you know, it's amazing when you can kind of in retrospect, look back to a passion of you know what you were missing when you needed it, and then to be able to turn around and now be able to provide the service that was lacking for you to somebody else and know that you're that you're providing that you're providing a form of comfort is not a form of it. I mean, it is a comfort, right?
 
Robin Elario  03:22
Yeah, yeah, it is necessary. Obviously, the last thing people want to do is put a loved one in a nursing home or assisted living facility. So as long as they can safely remain at home with our services, it's kind of a win win.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:38
So tell me a little bit, you know, a little bit more about the services that you provide? I mean, is it? Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about it.
 
Robin Elario  03:49
So it's, it's all non medical. So things that fall under non medical services include anything from health, helping someone get out of bed in the morning, getting them dressed, we have folks that have very little care needed, maybe they just need help with laundry or some light housekeeping that kind of keep them being able to stay at home. We have other people who need full on care and we have a mechanical lift that gets them out of bed and puts them into a wheelchair and we have to Bed Bath them and things like that. So we have all levels of care that we provide. It just depends on the level of need of the client. And so but we do all kinds of incontinence care, showering any kind of personal care, we do that helping them you know, do their hair, get them dressed, make meals for them. We do medication reminders, we can both medication, we can administer meds, but we can remind them and kind of keep them on track with that. We can go grocery shopping for them. Like I said laundry and light and healthy bein companionship is kind of goes with everybody.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:55
Right. And I think that all of us, you know as I get older, I'm not that old, yet. But as I get older, I think to myself, you know, I want to stay in my own home, right? The goal is to just stay in my home with my husband. For as long as I can, and I remember experiencing this with my grandmother, she The hardest thing for the family was to eventually know that she couldn't stay in her home anymore. And that's, and that's part of what you are able to provide is that that individuals get to stay, have the freedom of being in their own home, but have somebody who comes in and provides them with the companionship with the ability to stay in their home while being able to do some of those those day to day activities? Right.
 
Robin Elario  05:49
Right. Yeah. That's the goal. Well, great.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:53
So ownership. That, you know, for, for us who aren't, haven't taken that leap, we think, oh, yeah, I could buy a business. Right? I could, I could do that. But often, you know, we think of ownership is we're gonna go and do this thing. But it's so much more. And a lot of the owners a lot of the a lot of the Yeah, a lot of the owners that I talked to the first thing that they'll say is, wow, I didn't know what I didn't know. Oh, yeah. So first
 
Robin Elario  06:37
Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:40
So tell me a little bit about, you know, how's it going? I mean, you're five years in, which means that what is it five years? Yeah. Wow. So you're, you're of the of the percentile. That's, that's gonna make it at this point, according to statistics, right?
 
Robin Elario  06:59
Yeah. Yeah. Five years is kind of that Mark, I'll be six years in June. I feel pretty good about. I think I can make it out. Right, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:07
I mean, we it's what I can't even remember the statistics on that. But it's like 10% of businesses. Don't make it to the five, or I'm sorry, 10% of businesses make it. Which means that 90% of businesses don't make it to that five, that five year mark. Which is insane. I mean, you think about it. Yeah. But yeah, it's because you don't know what you don't know.
 
Robin Elario  07:35
I think if you knew if you knew more, you probably wouldn't do it is looking back if I had known what I know, now, maybe what I have not taken the leap, probably a high likelihood that I might have, you know, not, but sometimes that's what you need to get out. Just dive in. Right? Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:53
I think you're right, if you would have known all of the the triumphs and the trials that you would have gone through that you are going through, I'm sure still on a daily basis. But now you've had five years to iron out some of the bugs. So tell me a little bit, you know, this this season has been dedicated a lot to what does it take to hire, train, retain. So what is right now the biggest hurdle that you're struggling and I know that you and I talked a lot about, you know, that hiring piece for us right
 
Robin Elario  08:32
Now, honestly, it's not really the retention, it's more than hiring and getting them in the door. You know, it seems as though we have a lot of activity, but just getting them to actually show up for interviews, and you know, or we'll interview them and everything sounds great. We get them all on, you know, all set up for onboarding and they don't show up. Or we go through all that we get them on boarded, do all that and then they don't show up for their first shift or whatever the case may be. So that's our biggest struggle right now. I feel like we have a good handle on the retention part of it. Because we really do a lot for our caregivers. You know, it's a hard job. It is not a high paying job. There's a lot expected of them. You can get caregiver burnout really easily. So we try to do little things to make them feel appreciated, valued, those kinds of things. So I feel like we have a relatively good handle on once we get them in and they're viable, and they actually start working aside from, you know, hit issues or transportation issue. That seems to be a big part of it. But in general people seem to really like working with us when we do get them to that point. So right now it is actually the hiring the actual finding people, getting them in the door and getting them on boarded and ready to go. There seems to me, we lose a lot of hours. Right now, our business is measured in hours per week care hours, we've been losing quite a few care hours a week, because of that piece of it, we just need more, we just mean so many more people to be able to keep up with our demand.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:18
And that's not inconsistent with almost everybody that I taught. We need more people.
 
Robin Elario  10:22
Yeah, which makes me feel a little better. Right? thing? Um, that's not unique to me. But right. Now.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:31
So why do you think that the people in you, I mean, you mentioned a couple of things, you treat them? Great. You, you? So what are some of the things that you're that you do? And don't give away all your secrets? Right?
 
Robin Elario  10:48
No. So we have, you know, we were very communicative. So which we expect the same in return. We are flexible, you know, working with it, we understand things come up. And we understand people have stuff. So we try our best to work within their, within what they what they're able to do. But I think we do a good job recognizing we have, you know, caregiver of the month that we do. So we pick somebody every month. And if they're chosen, they get, you know, of course, the recognition, you know, gratulations, the solid stone, they get their name up on a little board, they get an avoider, branded scrub top, they get a gift card from Walmart. So it gives them something to strive for. We are going to be starting doing like quarterly, caregiver dropping days where we'll pick a day and each quarter we'll have goodies and coffee and use and you know, kind of, they can just sort of stop in during the day, and we'll have a little goodie bag for them. So, you know, I think we just we tried to build that culture were a team and that we do value them. So that seems to go a long way. And of course, everybody loves little treats and incentives like that. So,
 
Leighann Lovely  12:09
Absolutely. So going back to the you know, the hiring, getting people to show up. Are you offering any type of, you know, incentives to, Hey, show up and have cookies, I don't know who show up to the interview and? Or how are you going about reaching out to individuals? You know, how? And I guess because, yeah, because being in the recruiting industry, obviously everybody comes to me and says, how do we how do we combat that? How do we get them to show up to the interviewer? How do we? And I never have that solid answer of like, oh, this is what you need to do. Because everybody's experiencing that same problem. Yeah, so it's always that question of what are you doing to get this person to show up that day? Or why are they saying that they'll accept the job? And then they don't show up on that day? What is it that they've got five other job offers? And they just decided, or they just decided, You know what, I'm not gonna go to work today. And then they're stunned that they don't have a job.
 
Robin Elario  13:24
Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of all of that, because we're, you know, we're working with human beings. And so human nature and human psychology kind of goes to, you can't read everybody's mind as much as we rack our brains in our office on a daily basis, trying to like get inside everybody's head why they do this, why they do that. But maybe doing some more incentives to get them in the door is probably a good idea. We just haven't fine tune that, I guess, and haven't really come up with anything viable. Sometimes we wonder if people if we're getting them, we're grabbing them on Indeed, or rear plug and we have that interview. And then we set up, we do all the stuff and then we set them up for the onboarding. If they're using that as a means for their unemployment requirements. I don't know I sometimes I sometimes I think that's part of it. Because I know unemployment does not follow up with me. They're not saying hey, did someone so apply for job I've never once had unemployment call. So likely is they could be, you know, doing that. I don't know. So, you know, maybe something to entice them to actually come to the interviewer, which worries me a little because if I have to bribe them to come for a job interview, how are they going to be as an employee that does concern me, right. But, you know, sometimes you feel like you'll do anything, though, to get at least people in the door. So that might be I'm kind of old school. I feel like you're expected to do this. You just do it. And that's an Yeah, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:57
And there's a lot of us out there who will Hey, if I commit to something, I'm going to I'm going to follow through on that. But that's the way that I was. That's the way that I was raised. That's the way that I, you know, that's the way that my brain works. There's an entire population of people out there that and it's, it's a symptom of the economy that that we're living in. Yeah, it's a symptom of, of a lot of things. It's a symptom of the younger generation, and that the way that they were raised, it's the way that so you're right, you can't pinpoint it being one thing, I was raised by a very, you know, strict, I don't want to say, strict, but you know, a father who
 
Robin Elario  15:45
had values, correct.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:48
Those were their values. But the, the, hey, if you commit, you follow through, if you say you're going to be somewhere on time, you show up on time, if you agree to do something, you know, that's, that's your, it's like signing a contract, and you don't break contracts. And sometimes
 
Robin Elario  16:08
I feel like, boy, I'm really getting old, because I find myself well, back in the day I would never have dreamt of and like Robin, you know, now you're really sound like an old person. Because but I think I think that is part of it, though. It's just my, I never would have dreamed of calling him to work unless I was on my deathbed. It just wouldn't be something I would have to figure it out. Right? That mentality is not necessarily there anymore. And a lot of the people we have are younger, because that's the age of the people doing the job that we are, you know, requiring them to do, which is fine. But yeah, so yeah, so you know, that, I'm glad you kind of mentioned that entice them to kind of come to the interview, maybe some little you know, even if we just say, Hey, we're gonna we'll have snacks and drinks. And we do we do have, we have a refrigerator stocked with drinks and a basket of snacks and a basket of toys that they can grab one for their kid, you know, if they, some of them have to bring their kid with them to the on on onboarding. Okay, you know? Right. They said upfront, you know, so yeah, and,
 
Leighann Lovely  17:11
and it's, I've worked in the staffing industry, for him, having people show up for onboarding or with their child is not, you know, we, I think to myself, well, what are you doing, but if they're not making money, paying for child care, is not an easy thing to do. Or even finding somebody in the middle of the day for two hours is just not feasible for them.
 
Robin Elario  17:38
There are so I don't have an issue with that, therefore, the basket of toys, right, as I record all that, that's about you know, that's some people's reality. And that's fine, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:48
But I used to have a drawer with a bunch of markers in it. When I was in when I was working in the light industry, industrial. And I'd be like, Okay, get the thing of markers, and a piece of paper, and they can sit in and color. Because for an hour, I need your attention and not the attention of the child's you know. Yeah. And again, it's it's a symptom of one, you know, I never used to call in sick, I never used to call in sick. Think about how much that is, is changing. We're all of the sudden your employer, you get to work. And they're like, Wait, well, wait, you're coughing? You're sneezing? Exactly. And all of a sudden, like, you need to go home
 
Robin Elario  18:32
In my line. Yeah, my line of work, too. We got to be super careful. Like I don't want if somebody truly is sick, I don't want them at work. I don't want my office girls at work if they're sick. And I certainly don't want a caregiver because everybody, all of my clients, even if they're not elderly, they're compromised in some way. They're not healthy people. So however, there's that fine line of you know, so we require a doctor's notes, you know, you go you told me you went to the doctor, that that's fine. So now you'd have till the next morning to get us that note before you may return to work. Or it's considered unexcused, you know, absence or whatever. But we are trying to crack down a little bit on that because as much as we want to work with people, you got to draw that line, you got to set that expectation that, you know, we understand things happen, but here's the guideline that we need to go by. And that's, you know, that's not easy sometimes because you need people go to work, but
 
Leighann Lovely  19:31
Right. And you want to set the expectation that I don't want you to come to work sick, but unless you're setting the expectation of hey, I have a little sniffle. And it's just there's a fine line between Are you lying to me so that you don't have to work? Are you over?
 
Robin Elario  19:55
Are you because we've had that too, and we've had actually people to tell us that they're hungover and I got to work. So Mike Okay, well, we so honest.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:05
Yeah, I mean, I suppose I'd rather have honesty than somebody that flat out lying to me but there's a slap on the wrist, don't do it again, get your get your life together. And every time I've ever been hungover, I've showed up to work. And then I've just played the, I'm an idiot, right? I'm an idiot, I'm not gonna do that again. And now I'm, you know, in my 40s. And I have a child, I don't typically do that.
 
Robin Elario  20:33
No, I'm not hungover these days anymore. It takes me four days to recover. Yeah, not a good thing. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  20:41
In my 20s. It took me about, you know, four hours to recover. And then I was ready to do it again, for God's sake, oh, my God. Okay. Tangent. Now, you manage, you know, obviously a group of people who are not coming to the office every day, they're going elsewhere, they're, they're, you know, taking care of other people. So, you know, I've asked this question of a ton of individuals of, you know, the world is going remote, but you've always basically been managing before COVID, before all of this a group of individuals who essentially are remote, because while you're a home healthcare.
 
Robin Elario  21:18
We don't have eyes on him.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:19
Right. So how do you and you talked a little bit about some of the things that you do for your staff in order to keep that morale up? But how do you I mean, there's got to be a huge amount of trust.
 
Robin Elario  21:31
Yeah, um, so we, most of our clients are state clients. So I get them to the state, and I get reimbursed the state and I pay the employees as w two employees. But with that comes a lot of compliance. So in the world of private duty agencies, there's not that compliance piece of it, we're not regulated at all by the state or what we do. Crazy enough. That's how it is. But when you're when you're when you're dealing with the states.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:04
So wait, before you go on. Sorry. You're not regulated,
 
Robin Elario  22:08
Licensed? We don't have to be licensed. For non medical,
 
Leighann Lovely  22:13
okay, okay. Okay. All right.
 
Robin Elario  22:15
Well, as an Illinois, they have very strict compliance and licensing guidelines, we don't have that.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:23
Even us, even non medical has to be yes. Oh, wow. Okay,
 
Robin Elario  22:27
Okay, assisting hands down in, like Illinois, they have a pretty stringent process, they have to go through to get credentialed and all that kind of stuff. Okay. So, but because I work with state clients, I am heavily regulated and have to follow certain compliance rules, which is kind of good, because that kind of forces you to do more in the way of checking on people. So I have a gal who works in my office, she's a field supervisor. And her job, her main job is to be out in the field, visiting, when caregivers are on shift with a client, and kind of goes and checks on to make sure they're in uniform, make sure the client is happy doing things that they're supposed to be doing, making sure the caregiver is in fact there, because we've had that situation before. Um, and just that kind of stuff, because that's how we kind of keep eyes on everybody. So every 30 days, they get a unannounced kind of visit. So that's how we sort of do that, you know, and then once you go with you brings them a little goodie bag and has like granola bars and hand sanitizer, and just, you know, thanks for doing such a great job. But really, it is to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, and we also have a nurse that's like, a contracted I actually see as a W two employee too, but she's kind of per diem for certain clients need that extra level of kind of checking on. So I have a nurse as well, that goes into another set of clients. And that's mandated by the state. So interesting. Yeah. So that's kind of how we keep that in check. And it's worked out pretty good. But there have been times where like, oh, boy, we need to figure out this situation, because it's not a good situation. And then, you know, oftentimes, everything's gone great. And everyone's happy. So
 
Leighann Lovely  24:17
Excellent. So you have somebody who's not only checking to make sure that you know, they're talking to the client, making sure that the client is happy, but you're they're also checking the employee making sure that the employees they're where they need to be and doing what they need to be in. And yeah, do you have times where the employees all come together at a specific location to
 
Robin Elario  24:39
Not really, we had a we had a holiday party. So we had a two day like open house and so they could come one of two days to get we have lunch brought in we had all kinds of treats and had you know, goodie bags and stuff to give them for coming in. That was really that's really the only time there's really no their opportunity for them to all kind of get together. That's just not the nature of this kind of business. So,
 
Leighann Lovely  25:07
and how many caregivers do you have in total?
 
Robin Elario  25:10
Um, last check? 52? I think it was 82. Yeah. And they're not all full time most a part time. We do have some we have some that are family members taking care of their family through the state. So you know, that's a whole different animal. But so yeah, including those people's like, 52. And then I got three gals in the office full time.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:34
And you have just one person who goes and does the rounds of checking on all 52.
 
Robin Elario  25:40
Yeah, so I have 45 clients. And so she she does it through the course of a month. So she every client gets, and of course, the nurse does the other sets of clients that need that nurse visit as required by the state. So the other gals that that field supervisor does the other clients. So it's not exactly. You know, she's not doing 45 clients. So wow, I'm talking to people out in the field. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:12
Wow, how do you, as the owner, keep all of the parts moving in the right direction. I mean, you said you have three office people.
 
Robin Elario  26:25
So I have an admitted an administrator who is kind of, I hired her to kind of take off a lot of my wool, so I could kind of step away a little bit. So she kind of runs the Daily Show. She's amazing. So between herself, and me, that's what kind of keeps the, the parts moving. And then the other gal who's out in the field, she also does the onboarding in the office and the training in the office because they have to have skills, assessments done per the state. And you know, they have their orientation and training and stuff like that. So she does handle that. And then I have another full time person that does kind of recruiting and then does the interviewing and does. He kind of backs up the field supervisors. She's out of the office, she answers phones and stuff like that. But yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, it's, I was hoping to be able to step away a little bit hiring this, you know, full time administrator, but what it's done is it's, it's giving me more time to actually do other things that like, oh, well, I guess I'm not stepping away as much as I would. But it's fine. I love working so and I can be flexible with my time. So I can, you know, do stuff during the day if I need to, because I You're never off, really. So it just allows you to be more flexible with your time.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:49
So the advice to other people that's possibly looking at running their own business is you'll you'll never actually be off of work.
 
Robin Elario  27:58
It's hard. Yeah, I mean, but you have to make a you have to make an effort. The first couple of years, it was really challenging. It just, it was a show. It was Yeah. But you have to learn and you have to hire people, you have to be willing to spend the money to hire and that's where that's the point I'm, I've gotten too over in 2020, or 2022. Was that was my goal for 2022 is, you know, now I'm getting the revenue. And now I'm doing all these things and stuff. And now I need people because I can't grow if I don't have people to do all these things. Because myself and one other person was not going to cut it just not possible. So I'm gonna like,
 
Leighann Lovely  28:42
so in 20, before 2022 You it was just you and one other office person.
 
Robin Elario  28:48
Yeah, And, so during COVID It was interesting, though, because at that time, the majority of my clients or stay clients still but whose families took care of them. So that wasn't call offs, there wasn't people, you know, couldn't make it to work they just did, because they were taking care of her family. So it was a little bit of a different it was actually nice during COVID Because it was a little less stressful, I think with trying to and I didn't overly try to build too much because I didn't, it was really difficult with the protocols. And, you know, I was on four webinars a day trying to keep up with what's going on and the standards and you know, just all the stuff. So it was an interesting time. Luckily, we were in a place where it didn't cause too much in the way of stopping like operations. But after in 2021 it became very evident that, you know, I keep getting all these clients and I just can't if I want to keep taking clients and I want to grow I need to I need to get some help. So that was my goal for 2022
 
Leighann Lovely  29:59
Oh, Awesome, awesome. Yeah. And that was you kind of touched on the next question I had for you, which was, you know, how did the the pandemic affect you? And your business? It sounds like you were kind of in, in a waiting pattern, but you had business because a lot of the family members were continuing to take care of their own family members, and how does that work? They they work under you, and they get paid by the state shoot, okay.
 
Robin Elario  30:30
Yep. So I get reimbursed from the state. And then I hired them as a W two employee, so they have all the same qualifications that, you know, we're all the same training and all that kind of stuff, the same supervision that everybody else gets, they're still required, they're still they still need to act like an employee, okay. You know, because I'm paying them a paycheck, and but they'll they get the benefits of being an employee, too. Like, if everyone gets a bonus at Christmas, I give them all a bonus as well, because why not? There's working hard and, and most of them are like, Oh, my God never would have expected that. But yeah, why not? So but yeah, it was an interesting time. And I, I feel like if I was all private duty are all having to staff all those clients, it would have been extremely stressful and anxiety ridden. Because just the fear I had of that small group of clients that I had, that I still had to send outside people into their home was overwhelming for me. I just was worried all the time. Like, are they telling me they don't have the symptoms, and I wasn't testing and I never mandated a vaccine, because I just don't believe that's what I and I didn't need to do that. You know, and there was like, they would clock in on their phone. And there were questions that came up COVID related, do you have this, this, this and this? And, you know, if they answered yes to any of them, we'd have to question as to what what's going on, and you know, then you can't go to work. And it was, it was a rough time, I feel I feel for the people that had 50 employees that they had to worry about, because I didn't worry about the family members, their living there. So if they all have COVID, together, there's not a lot I can do about that. Right? You know, so that very small majority, we had some clients that didn't want any care, and we would go get their groceries and leave that at the staff or just like quickly put it inside their door. And that was all they wanted. And, you know, it was challenging, because people were fearful. But we did it. You know, we made it through but
 
Leighann Lovely  32:31
so some of the family members that are caregivers actually live in the same home.
 
Robin Elario  32:35
Oftentimes, oftentimes interesting. Wife, yeah, or a daughter, we have a lot who's you know, child, daughter, son will care for them. And they don't live in the home. But you know, they're there every day. And they have to okay, you know? Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:51
And then, and I'm wildly interested by this, because what happened if one of your clients got COVID, but needed care, needed help using the bathroom needed?
 
Robin Elario  33:03
I mean, yeah, yeah. So it happened a couple of times where we had a client that a COVID Luckily, they had a family member that was able to help them. It it's never ideal, because obviously the family member is trying to work and do that. That's why they have us in there because they don't have you know, her but there was one that we had that had ended up having COVID and the caregiver was fine. She's like, you know what, he has a math spot. I have a mask on, I got my gloves on, I'll wash my hands, I'll double mask, you know, whatever I have to do. She had the N 95 Whatever. She's like, I'm fine. You know, I'm okay, you know, but it was kind of a case by case we really had to take each every day we had no idea what's gonna happen. It was that crazy.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:56
Like, you know, it's we all we've all heard the stories of, you know, what people who are working in hospitals are still you go into a hospital. I think they're all still wearing masks. And I tell you that as soon as the mask mandates went away, I was ripping that thing off my face going never again because ever again. Yeah, I just I was one of the ones that every time I wore a mask for any, you know, any longer than 1015 minutes, I would get an instant headache. I even talked to my doctor about it. I'm like, I don't understand and, and I have I have chronic migraines that I take my medicine for everything else. And so I just, I mean, I couldn't stand wearing them out. So when that went away, and again, it was directly related to the fact that I got headaches. You know, this is my political view in any way. So as soon as the masks went away, I was like, Oh, thank God, but I would you know, my mother was in the service in the service industry. She had a perma mask on, just like the people who worked or work in hospitals work in the frontlines that wore them for 1012 hours a down, that were breaking out and had, you know, just these horrible things on their face? Yeah, the human, no, the humans are not meant to have something across their face 24 hours or 12 hours a day. It's just not. It's not meant to be like that. And so I feel horrible for, you know, those individuals, but it's eye opening, to realize, you know, talking to somebody like you who's, you know, obviously, in essential business, you're giving, you're providing a service that many individuals, they need, somebody who's not able to take a shower or to properly clean themselves or to get their own food, or whatever the case may be. It's an essential service and people like me, who's not an essential service, necessarily. I did, I was able to work the entire time. But I was working from home, the security of my home, I barely ever left it other to go to the grocery store, or to make a trip to Menards because I had a house project I was working on like the rest of the world. You forget very quickly, the horrors of having to wear those masks for that. Yeah. And then to have somebody you know, have the people who went, yep, I know. I'm going to be around individuals with COVID I work in a hospital. Yeah, I know. I'm gonna go into somebody's home who has COVID and have them be okay with that. During a time period when everybody was terrified. Yeah, you know?
 
Robin Elario  36:53
Not a good time. No,
 
Leighann Lovely  36:54
No, and now people now people are like, COVID What do you mean? COVID It's not that scary, depending on obviously, what you experienced. There are people who lost their loved ones and you know, obviously everybody experienced it differently, but I was one of the lucky ones. I didn't lose anybody close to me. Everybody who I never got COVID But everybody in my family did I just for some reason was one of the lucky ones that never experienced it. That's good. But it's it is it's bizarre to think back and and remember and I'm hoping that my daughter will not but remember the time when everywhere we went we wore a mask and the people on the frontline were wearing them is still wearing them all the time.
 
Robin Elario  37:40
Yeah, my girls still wear though that's still a requirement of mine is to you have to be masked up gloves and a mask. And they have to obviously know the proper hand washing protocol and all that. So but right yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:53
Well, when you're in close contact with somebody, especially when they're immune, you know, when they have a you know, what immunocompromised situation and like you said, a lot of your individuals, maybe it's still a very important thing. Yeah, not to mention that the world right now the entire world right now is pretty much sick. Because we were all cooped up for two years. And now we're all sharing our germs with each other fun times, right? Yeah. Yeah. At least my daughter is sick every pretty much every other week. Yeah. And then she brings it home to mommy and daddy, which is so nice.
 
Robin Elario  38:34
Oh, nice. I don't miss those.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:36
No, no, no, I know. It's it's so much fun. Yeah. The I have a babysitter today. And she is a personal note side note. Sorry, tangent. She does. She's got a fear of runny noses, and putting it nicely. So she came down to my office here at my home and she goes, you're gonna have to help me with this one. I'm like, Oh, there she goes, you just need to wipe her nose. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Anyways. So we are, we're getting close to time. And I would like to ask you the question of the season, which I think is going to be fun because you are now you know, obviously five years in your business owner, you run a unique business. And that's why I was excited to talk to you today because it's different than you know, any other company that I've spoken with thus far. But if someone or I'm sorry, if if you could change anything about your job or the practice that people have in your role? What would that be?
 
Robin Elario  39:49
Um, the job itself or how I handle the job,
 
Leighann Lovely  39:53
like really anything I mean, if
 
Robin Elario  39:58
They gotta be better at letting go a little bit More of delegating or fearful that something's not going to get done the way like, I think it should get done. Nobody has anything to lose, except you as an owner. So is your employees, they're great. And I have to say, my, especially my main office gal, she takes her job very, very seriously. And I 100% appreciate that. But no one loves your business like you do. Nobody feels the pain of the business like you do. And I have to do better with realizing it's okay to hand things off or to trust. And I'm getting better with that, because the person I have in that role has demonstrated that she can handle things. So that's, that's been kind of a newer thing for me, but and then just be able to take that take that time to say, Okay, I am not because I have, admittedly, the app we happen to use for our business phone is RingCentral. And so we're all connected on RingCentral. And then when caregivers text or call comes through this app, so it's not going to your personal phone so we can kind of all see and stay connected with what's going on and read all the texts and all that I'm getting, I've got to get better with not looking all the time, like even maybe logging out of the app every so hard for me. But because I don't want something to be missed. That is critical. Although I don't say anything, I let them handle it. I am getting better with that. But I think that'd be the one thing I'd if I could change would be just trying to, you know, things will be okay. But it's just that fear always that as an owner that at the end of the day, all these people can leave and never come back again. And then you're still in the seat. Handling every Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  42:06
So trust and delegation.
 
Robin Elario  42:09
Mm hmm. Yeah. Trust but verify. Yeah, to? Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  42:15
Well, we all have to trust but verify it. I mean, that's something that we will that we should be doing our whole lives. But I can only imagine. And this again, I think that it is not unique to know how to you know, I've heard that from multiple people. And you're right, you it is your baby, it will always be your baby, it will always be you're always going to love it more than anybody else.
 
Robin Elario  42:51
It's your or hate it more than anybody else.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:55
Or hate it.
 
Robin Elario  42:56
So love and hate. Yes. Oh, it's like it's like so close together the parallel? Yes. Yeah. So absolutely. Many days, I wanted to turn off the light and just never come back again. Because like, Can I do that? Can I really do that? Let me think.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:12
And I, you know, when you as you were explaining that, to me, another owner that I had a recent conversation with, his goal was to be able to step away, and not have to think about his business and have the trust in all of the employees that are running it to be able to actually step away and know that everything is running. Then that was his goal for this year. And I believe that I've actually seen him now step up completely away, nine on multiple times, and be like, Yep, I'm not there. Don't call me call this person. He's now running the business and I was like, wow, you're you're doing the thing that you promised yourself you could do,
 
Robin Elario  43:54
Which has to meet that's that means you're successful. A business owner should not be working 80 hours a week. That's not what you that to me unless you absolutely want to and you don't have anything else you know, going on in your life. But that should not be the goal, the goal should be that and that's what I'm trying to work toward. And I've been able to transition to that somewhat. I just like working too much so that like Oh, am I going to the office? What am I going to do? I'm gonna clean my house I'm gonna go to the gym. You know, I mean, I feel kind of almost like this. Like owners guilt sometimes. And I have to have a conversation with myself Robin, you're the owner. You can go to the gym if you really want to, so that you're okay, right, but that's me. That's the goal too is to be able to not maybe not 100% Step away, but to get to that point where Yep, calm the gals, and they'll take care of you. So yeah, I am.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:48
I am a workaholic. And I've I've come to terms with that. Not so that I can boast about it, but so that I can recover.
 
Robin Elario  44:59
Get better from it. Yes, it is a is a sickness, it aims to balance things better. But yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  45:06
There are times where I'm sitting, I'm supposed to be watching a movie with my family. And all I can think is, I really got to find a reason to get away from this situation to go and send an email. And then I go, I'm a horrible person, why am I trying to run away from my family to go and work like that? This is an issue like I need. I need therapy.
 
Robin Elario  45:32
I need help. So it's good. You can recognize it. That's the first step to recovery they say so being able to recognize your your illness.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:41
Yes, I. So I'm working on that. I am allotting time where I'm not allowed to check my email. I'm not allowed to open up LinkedIn, I'm not allowed to do not allowed to do any of that I have to just focus on Yeah, family time, which is wildly important, or me time or whatever, for whomever is listening to this, it is vitally important to unplug completely.
 
Robin Elario  46:09
So now, yeah, echo that 100%? Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:14
Yep. Especially as a business owner, because if you burn yourself out in that first year of ownership for the first two years, or for the first three years, you're gonna fail.
 
Robin Elario  46:23
Yeah, and it almost happened. Like I said, there were many days that I just thought, you know, I can't do this, I just can't, and I just, I'm not gonna go in, I'm just not gonna go in ever again. And then you reason with yourself and do that, obviously, however, the first year and a half, it affected me physically, emotionally, my relationships, even my son's at mom, you got to do something like this is you're gonna, I'm wearing about you, right? So, you know, you just have to kind of, you gotta just do it. You just gotta make sense, you know, make your family important. Make yourself important. And, you know, then it becomes kind of easy, almost like, oh, that's kind of nice.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:08
Well, this has been an amazing conversation. It truly has. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, for a couple of reasons. If they're looking for a job, want to get into the, you know, into the industry want to learn about, you know, what it's like to work with you. Or if somebody is looking, because they need a caregiver, how would they go about doing that?
 
Robin Elario  47:32
So our, they could call our main number, because that's how it kind of gets triaged through the front desk. And then Kim, who is my administrator, she would kind of take the reins from there. Our office number is 262-721-1155, they could always shoot me an email to our relario@assistinghands.com. And I could, I'd be happy to talk to anybody, obviously, at anytime, and then you know, transition them to the right person, but So those would be the two main, the main ways they could get in touch with us.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:11
Excellent. And that will be included in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in reaching out to Robin, please check the show notes. Her contact information will be listed there. Again, Robin, it has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.
 
Robin Elario  48:27
Yeah, don't worry. It was great. Thanks, Leighann. Take care.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:31
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact –
Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/relario
Website - assistinghands.com/menomonee
E-mail – relario@assistinghands.com
Office Phone Number - 262-721-1155
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, clients, business, employees, home, caregiver, hiring, mask, care, day, family members, office, checking, state, robin, job, experienced, individuals, hungover, wearing

Change, Easy Right? Change Management Expert Knows All to Well How Hard It Is

Jessica is not only an entrepreneur with a heart of gold that has sought out to create fair work environments on both side, but is a brilliant women that works hard to understand people and the law. She has spent her career working with people assisting with so many things, one hot topic today is change management. As we navigate so many things changing in our world daily, having a person like Jessica and Ollenburg LLC is the only comfort many employers have, and I got the opportunity to talk with her, you don’t want to miss this great conversation!    
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Jessica Ollenburg is a multi-preneur, executive consultant and educator at the intersection of employment law, change management, and employee motivation, profiled as the pioneer of HR management, and research in Fortune Magazine, just founded the management consulting division of HRS Human Resource Services and also founded HRIS staffing division, which was labeled the anti temp service today at Oldenburg executive consulting. She continues working with business owners and C suite executives in legal risk management, organizational change, and magnetic culture, a guru of evidence, policies, practices and innovation. Jessica is also a multi award winning CEO, inventor, author, community leader, visionary, and topic expert. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today. I am really excited to have you.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  02:18
Thank you for the invitation. Leighann, it's wonderful to be here and looking forward to the conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:23
Yeah. So you are the managing partner and Principal Consultant of Oldenburg LLC. Is that correct? That's correct. And you and I, it's it's crazy how we met, I actually met with your husband in hopes of getting an introduction with you. And and then he introduced us and we've we've had the opportunity to talk numerous times. And I'm really excited to to again, have this conversation with you today and, and talk, basically pick your brain about a wide variety of different things, but mainly in the world today with change management and everything that's going on. I just I can't wait to jump in. So tell me just a little bit overview of you know, kind of what your firm does.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  03:16
Sure, sure. Again, it's wonderful to be here and I've enjoyed our conversations to this point and, and looking forward to continuing that. Oldenburg LLC is an primarily an executive consulting firm, we're working with business owners and C suite executives and employment law change management and leadership playbooks. It is very much focused on change management, especially at this time, and has been driven in somewhat of a predictive and early responder category for for many years. As an example of that, during the pandemic, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, when even the health departments we're not yet armed with guidance, and we're not agreeing with steps we found our business owner and C suite clients not knowing how to respond to a COVID outbreak, because there was no standardized guidance, and we became literally a 24/7 Batphone for our clients handling not only what needed to happen as far as safeguarding the immediate environment and proper notifications without risking medical privacy. How do we create assurances how do we tucked down the fear, how do we make people comfortable, safe, healthy? And what are the policies that we put in place? So it really was a shut up and hang on practice for a couple of years as we simply adapted and helped.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:18
Right? Wow. And, you know, obviously, the people who are not in it every day, you know, myself, I'm on the end of, okay. I may have COVID, I don't go to work, I have no idea what's going on, as you know, as a business owner of, oh, we have a possible outbreak at our company. You know, I'm not of the mindset of how do we handle this? How do we keep people's privacy, you know, secure if they don't want employees at the company to know that they're going and getting tested? And how, so I don't understand or fully understand, you know, that type of thing. So you, basically are the one who's reading through, I guess, the most updated law on that, and
 
Jessica Ollenburg  06:08
correct,
 
Leighann Lovely  06:10
And then having to regurgitate that to, you know, the business owners and explain to them how they have to then implement that at their business.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  06:24
Yes, exactly. And one of the unique attributes and a big reason that our clients knew to come to us and put us in that first responder category was our decades as friends of the court working in expert witness affirmative defense, and not as litigators, but as respected experts in law, where it becomes reasonable care, when we sign off on a practice for our employers. And therefore, now they can show that they took the reasonable care in being compliant. And that due diligence factor has been signed off on by a third party expert who's respected by the courts. So while you have these various local and Star state and federal departments all disagreeing on what might be safety protocol, somebody has to step in and say this is due diligence, this is where we're going to start. And you've done right by doing everything in your power to make sound decisions for the safety of everyone.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:45
Right. And by having that third party, at least you're I don't want to say pushing off the responsibility, but as an employer, you're wearing every hat that you possibly can to try to run your business.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  07:59
Absolutely, trying. And it has to be true that some of this liability needs to be subrogated. So that you can focus on your business. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  08:11
And that's, I can't we, you know, small business. Well, any size business owner is got way too many other things going on. And that's why today, we are talking about, you know, change management, right? We're talking about, especially now in today's world, and I know that you and I had mentioned or when we had talked offline, we had talked about this world today. And again, we hear this all the time, well, things are so different than they were last year. And this has been something that, you know, throughout my career, they always are changing. However, with the onset of the pandemic with COVID happening. I know that people now are coming to you saying, Well, Jessica, how do we handle this? What do we need to update our employee handbook with to now handle all of the different things that are going on in our workforce? How do we make sure that we're covering everything and one of the big things is the remote workers, right? Absolutely. So on top of making sure that you're covering your butt for privacy with you know, everything that was going on during obviously in the middle in the midst of COVID Now we have a completely different view and, and vision of what our workforce looks like. So now that we've come out the other side, for all intensive purposes, I don't know if we're fully out the other side or or if this is just the new normal, right? The New Normal I know I hate that phrase. I do I absolutely hate it but it's just Right, let's just say that's what it is right?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  10:02
It Right. Right. It has its place in the dialogue creates its own discussion. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:09
So now everybody's all these companies are going okay. Well, I, I have maybe 25% of my employees working remote, maybe 50. Maybe now a company that used to have brick and mortar doesn't. And they have 100% remote workers, and their employee handbook from three years ago, has become completely null and void.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  10:34
Yes, yes, that that is true. And we can we can say no and void in a way that if we're missing the major risk factors, yet we have an instrument that speaks to it. Once we have written guidance, contract law tells us that an oral agreement is not binding, where a written agreement is already established. So the creation of a handbook. Some are still doing this cookie cutter. And it's crazy. What is the point of a cookie cutter handbook, I don't know, especially in today's times where it is so important to focus on engagement and getting the right people doing the right things with the right resources for your unique company. Putting cookie cutter policies in place can be very detrimental to that. But to your point of not updating it, as soon as something that is a major liability or risk is not addressed. We have a a handbook that has become entirely obsolete. So we are recommending annual updates. Some of the things we're looking at right now for our clients who have kept up with the updates are going to be looking more deeply at the hybrid and remote work, as well as changing laws in many states, counties and cities that need to be addressed. And what we see with the hybrid and remote work is the question becomes work Nexus we might have a an employee who is working remotely from Dallas, who is reporting to a supervisor in California, while the client is in some area of New York. Now we need to help that employer understand where's the work Nexus we sign off on that, and can create a bespoke agreement, which also needs to be referenced in the employee handbook as well. And we learn what becomes an individualized agreement versus a general handbook tool set.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:22
Interesting. Very interesting. So is there I guess here's a question that I don't know. With now, obviously, remote workers is, are all companies able to or licensed to be able to hire an employee from any state
 
Jessica Ollenburg  13:43
Occupational licensing? I don't mean to laugh, but I did get a Google alert on myself this morning. On this very topic, as I'm currently serving on the state's Study Committee, the legislative Study Committee on occupational licensing and where it comes down to occupational licensing absolutely affects hybrid and remote work because there are many cases in which we cannot cross boundaries. So if the work Nexus is now affected by whether or not the licensing is valid in that state. We have a compliance issue and a risk so we can't be allowing people to cross borders with their work unless the licensing allows it.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:41
And in there are I'm I'm going to and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to jump to the conclusion that there might be small business owners out there that do not know this that may run small, little kind of boutique type For businesses that now that they have the opportunity to hire a remote worker that they go, Oh, I can just hire somebody who's in a different state. And this may be something that they go, Oh, wait, you mean, I can't hire somebody who's in Florida, and I'm in Wisconsin.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  15:19
And that's a really good point, Leanne. And I would add to that, not only is that true is that that information is missing. One thing that's been true of our government throughout my many moons of career is the government states, it's not our job to teach you how to comply. And right now we have a government that's fundraising. So they're certainly going to go where they expect to find the fines so that they can fiscally cover their efforts in audit. Small businesses are definitely being a lot more targeted than previously. And especially because that's where you're going to find the holes. And the difference between these laws, again, can can differ depending on what side of the street you're on. We have states that are dividing their laws up by city and county, not just statewide, not just federal, so you really need to know what laws apply. And to your point of the small business owner being unaware, it's absolutely true in some states, paid leave laws or laws that might affect what you need to disclose and enforce to an employee that differs from one law to another as far as the size, some laws are written to say anyone with perhaps 25 Or more aggregate employees company wide, is subject to our law. Other laws might say, the headcount here within this state or this county, are those that will measure whether or not this needs to be enforced. And some will start with employee one. So we also need to help our clients understand what is the point at which they now need to comply with this law? Right? Are they in compliance, and much of it is disclosure through postings, which also now has to be virtual, because there is no break room for the hybrid or remote worker who's eating in their kitchen?
 
Leighann Lovely  17:48
That's insane. And I'm want to go back to the first the first thing that you said when you started off saying explaining all of that, you mentioned that it is not the government's job, to train on the loss, or something to that.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  18:07
Correct. That's very often been the government's posture, if not, quote at several levels, and we've seen it, we see it in audit. Ignorance is not an excuse, if you're audited. If you can show due diligence and reasonable care, you might have an auditor, who gives you opportunity to fix and just a slap on the wrist, so to speak. But you might get the immediate fine, especially in a situation where our government is fundraising.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:44
And yet they write it in a way and trust me, because I have sat and read through, you know, when, when the Affordable Care Act first, you know, was being and I'm I sat and read through page after page after page, it scratching my head saying, I have no idea what any of this means, you know, I was in a different industry at that time. Kind of a little bit of a different industry during that time. I was you know, and I was like, I really want to understand this. And I tried really, really, really tried. I'm an intelligent person, I'm going to challenge a woman. And I tried, I tried to read through it and I was like, I'm just really getting stuck on some of this on some of this, like I don't understand and then they say well reference, you know, reference this chap, you know, chapter one, four 3.5 blob in your life what you know, they they do not attempt in any way to write it in a in a way that makes sense to the layman person to just the normal. I mean, you have to actually be educated in reading contractual law.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  20:00
Law or illegals true? It's true. Yes. Which,
 
Leighann Lovely  20:04
Which means that you need to go to somebody like you who's used to reading that type of, of mumble jumble. And forgive you.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  20:15
Absolutely no, no, you're you're you're spot on with this. And funny that you mentioned that because that's yet another example of of when I can tell you that we've needed to be very quickly ready to discuss what nobody else was ready to implement when it came down so fast. But pakka and or Obama Care was one of those. And very quickly, we actually developed a speaker training, it took a while I shouldn't say quickly, it was fast, but it took a lot of work, and how to help employers understand, but there wasn't a whole lot to understand because to your point, Lian, statutory law is often written ambiguously and a little bit lazy, so that the courts are burdened with interpreting. So
 
Leighann Lovely  21:18
is that a weak Is that intentional?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  21:21
Somewhat, somewhat, you know, some of it is absolutely political and giving in on some points that are in argument in order to get something in play. Okay, because if we try to get anything through these days, given the divisive bipartisanship of every little topic, it's difficult because people want to stand on party lines and just say no, or just say yes and right. Reason should not be a partisan issue, but it seemingly is. So some of it is necessary just to get it going. Because if they waited until they had agreement, we'd never see anything.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:15
Right. Right. We just be, you know, shut, the government would be shutting down, it would be deadlocked all the time. Sure. Interesting. Okay, so what are some of the other things that that companies are coming to you, you know, for on a regular basis? You know, is there anything that stands out that Yep, this is a regular, they're always coming to us with, you know, especially now with, you know, the whole change management. I know that that was a, you know, hot topic that you and I had discussed, especially around the remote workers, but is there anything else that has been, you know, a huge game changer due to, you know, the the shift in the economy?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  22:56
Apps? Absolutely. We are seeing change management requiring a lot of evidence practices, and that's where we come in case studies that have worked and have not worked, that can be great blueprints playbooks for companies embarking upon change. Why would you want to embark upon change without some study and research as to outcomes and what to look for six hats of thinking, et cetera. So we're working with clients to help them with tactical planning, how to perhaps re posture given changing demand. And also major organizational changes were getting involved as closing counsel, if a company's cells were getting involved with creating shareholder plans outside of the ESOP. But my more creative and progressive limited shareholder plan for succession planning, and how to how to blueprint that we're looking at recessionary planning and helping our businesses, adapt evidence practices to do more with less. being frugal is important and putting your investments in the right place. Investments certainly need to be your employees. But it certainly needs to be also in balancing that with a sound business practice that safeguards those jobs.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:48
Right. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of companies have finally jumped on board with investing more in their employees and doing that in a By doing that in a more fruit, using the word that you use more frugal way, but more impactful way. And it's, it's becoming more evident that that is the only way to really retain your employees, keep them happy. And that is I mean, the importance of that in today's world is becoming more and more evident on a daily basis, in order to not lose those employees to competitors, because of, you know, $1, more or 5000 more a year, or whatever it might be. So yeah, I've definitely seen, obviously, you know, on the hiring side, I've seen that shift, wildly important. So absolutely, you know, your you, your company is, is very unique, in the sense that, and this is something that I am part of the reason that you and I originally met, because I, I, anybody that knows me knows that I am a an avid networker, I love to connect people, I love to be out in the world and refer, you know, individuals to each other. And so your company offers something that very few other organizations offer, I only know of a handful of them, you do things on an as needed basis, more of an ala carte type services, which is great, because a lot of companies out there, you have to have a membership. So if something, you know, all of the sudden happens, you know, you can't just call a you know, and I'm not going to name the names of the company, but you can't just call if you don't have a membership. If all of a sudden there's an incident at an organization, a business could contact you and say, Hey, could you come in and do an investigation for us? We don't have, you know, a huge HR team. But we need somebody who's an expert to come in. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, those different services that you offer, because I think it's amazing that that you you offer that?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  27:13
Sure, sure. And and it's very true. Our our projects are anywhere from 20 minutes to lifetime. But Time Well Spent is is very critical. And one of the things that's very important in our business model is ensuring that the client has value for every dollar spent with us that there is some return on that investment above and beyond the fee. Otherwise, we don't feel that we've done our job. So we simply don't let that happen. But you see, some of our clients might need regular attention and may be on a retainer basis. And a good portion of them really do work with us on call. Some of the leading insurance brokerages over the years have deployed us with their clients for legal and fiduciary for risk management, and even taking on the costs of doing that because it keeps the claims down. So we're in and out or around our clients for a very long time. But it's not uncommon for us to solve a six figure problem in a 30 minute phone call. So that's certainly create some value.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:50
Right? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you you typically work on the employer side, is that correct?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  28:59
Yes, yes. Over the years, we've we've certainly made it a point to focus on both sides of the hiring desk because without bridging that gap, your business is losing a lot of opportunity. If your team members it, team building certainly became a huge buzzword. But the early days of employee involvement and quality circles and team development, were certainly on our radar all the way back into the 80s and everyday sense. It is critical that a top running organization has alignment without an ivory tower. If your employees are not buying into what you're doing and you're running a labor intensive organization, you're missing opportunities to succeed. So we do make it a point I'm a champion of the human spirit and lifelong among students of behavioral science and human motivation, behavioral anthropology, learning what makes people tick and spent, a, again, many, many moons in behavioral assessment, even developing those and validating them, so that we could predict not only how someone would perform in a position, but also was it the right thing for them? Was it the right thing for their goals, their soul their ability to retain and problem solve and optimize their talents? Or was it the path of greater resistance? Should they be somewhere else? So being a resource on both sides of the hiring desk, is critical to getting it done. We typically represent the employer in their interests, while also letting them know, hey, if you've got quiet quitting, which is also constructive resignation, we need to look at that. We need to fix that. That's that's not okay. You're doing something not right. And we need to fix it.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:15
And that's i Quiet quitting. It's that that's an interesting term.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  31:26
It is an interesting term, we used to call it constructive resignation. And it was an it still is actually a reason people would be denied unemployment. So I'm not sure why we're holding it in high esteem like it's okay. Restricting work when you're on the job is not in the best interest of your teammates, yourself, or your job security.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:57
Very interesting. So I want to ask something about your bio. Yes. So you will you founded HR s staffing division, which was labeled the anti temp service? Yes. Tell me about that.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  32:20
So, HRS was founded. We founded that in 1983. Mind you were at a time where HR wasn't HR, yet, it was still personnel, it was still very clerical. I needed to work full time already in my career and take 27 credits to get the first HR degree from Marquette because that's how I knew it was on the horizon. So the divisions that I co founded, I founded it while co founding the company, which was a family business. We're the management consulting division, which is what I do today, an extension of that, but also our clients came to us working in employment was not on our original radar. But our clients came to us and said, We want this temp to perm situation. We don't know who's going to work well, we need to train people. We don't know what jobs they're going to be in. But we want to hire them. We want them to work out. We just simply need some time before making that commitment. And would you do this for us? Because at the time, there were no there was no temp to perm. There was no contract. It was temporary. It was permanent. It was licensed under employment agencies, which was again, not consulting but being an employment agent. And the industry was very, very different. We did not work with temporary positions. But we did create what I would consider to be an upscale version of what would become a blend between strategic staffing and a PEO. Where we could offer improved benefits growth, improved problem solving, improved training, we could offer all the employees more by being on the scene, but then they would actually be directly hired after their 90 days. So the focus was on reducing turnover. And what we were talking about was turnovers costly. Businesses were not recognizing that it was a mess. Are you saying math is our friend? Right? Math?
 
Leighann Lovely  35:05
I feel like some businesses still don't recognize that.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  35:08
Well, it's true. It's true. I don't know how I don't know how some stay in business, right? You write
 
Leighann Lovely  35:19
a go to them. And they say, Well, hey, I want to hire somebody on I don't want to have to train them. And you go, Okay, do you understand that if you hire them on and you don't train them that they're going to leave in 6090 days, I mean, you understand that training may be a little bit, you know, may have a little bit of an expense to it. But the alternative is that you lose them because you didn't properly train them. And then they feel like you don't care about them. And feeling the feeling they have, will drive their decisions. Because if they don't feel like you care, that is reality.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  36:01
It is true, it's very true. And while we overuse it, in my opinion, the idea of feelings in the workplace, because work still needs to be protected so that we can protect our feelings and our ability to feel a certain way and take care of human needs. It is absolutely true, that feelings are going to impact behavior. We teach against fear. Fear, is something that can paralyze some, some might be able to get that adrenaline push and get through something because of fear. But it's short term, you rarely see that as a long term driver. Anything that adversely impacts the relaxation of the brain also impacts our ability to accept information. A long term memory is already scientifically stated that it takes three instances of learning before information seeps into the average human beings long term memory. And the long term memory in this case is defined as 20 minutes or more. So if we're putting people under a lot of mental pressure and tension, we are restricting their ability to do their best work. And this is also where a lot of harassment comes in, because environmental harassment can again, stop somebody from feeling comfortable enough to produce their best work. And it may take creativity and problem solving and just hearing oneself think, and you can't do that when you're under an inordinate amount of stress.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:58
Very interesting. Well, we are coming to time, but I want to ask you the question of the season and then get your contact info and all that other stuff. So sure. So what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your job? Or in your role, if you could?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  38:20
And I love this question, because change is our thing. We're very much Oldenburg LLC and me as a consultant, we are very, very positioned on change management and predicting what's coming down the pipeline for businesses, business owners, and how to best prepare and be proactive. So the state of change is constant in what we do and keeps us relevant, not interested in resting on laurels from the past. But using that experience, and combining that with the changes we're seeing and predicting to create some very cutting edge and inventive solutions, so that people can be distinctive when running their businesses and create that big data culture. But also keep an eye on that efficiency. Especially now when we're dealing with a lot of financial pressures and economic uncertainty, doing more with less. And keeping ahead of change is so important for every business. And for us to be studying that and providing some decision tools we found is been very well received.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:47
Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Jessica Ollenburg  39:53
Most of the information on what we do is at our website, which we love of visitation to and that is Oldenburgllc.com. My email is my first name at that domain. Jessica  at Oldenburgllc.com. Happy to hear from anybody who thinks that we may be able to provide some value because we're really, really invested in the changes that are coming down the pipeline and helping people to do better with them and feeling safer and more assured that some of the change that we see coming is not negative. And there is some silver opportunity there that we're also finding for our clients.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:45
Excellent. Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This has been an awesome and very eye opening conversation. So I really appreciate your time.
 
Jessica Ollenburg  40:56
Thank you, Leighann. I appreciate yours and your program, and I've loved hearing what you've done so far, and look forward to hearing this.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:04
Excellent. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Information 
 
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/jessicaollenburg
 
Wedsite – http://ollenburgllc.com
 
E-mail Adress – jessica@ollenburgllc.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
employees, remote workers, clients, people, oldenburg, absolutely, state, company, point, business owners, law, true, hr, written, handbook, create, important, business, long term memory, jessica

AI Tools are Not as Fool Proof as You Think

Many companies large and small rely on automated intelligence for hiring, whether that be through the application process, assessment tools, or something else. What happens if we are not keeping up to date on the backend programming on these systems? Join me for an insightful conversation about the next wave of auditing rolling out with John Rood the founder and CEO of Proceptual. Website – https://proceptual.com/ 
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
I've been looking forward to this conversation with John Rood. He is the founder and CEO of Proceptual. Proceptual provides compliance solutions for emerging regulations of automated decision making systems in HR and people operations. Proceptual is currently working with clients on compliance with New York's AI bias laws. Previously, John was founder of next step test preparation, which became the second largest provider of pre health and pre medical test props. John lives in Chicago, and is a graduate of Michigan State University and the University of Chicago. This is a hot topic, obviously, in the HR world, and I just really excited to talk with him. Because with less candidates, more companies than ever using applicant tracking systems, it's definitely something that needs to be talked about, with DEI being ever more important. So I'm, yeah, I'm very excited to welcome John.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:21
John, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you.
 
John Rood  02:25
Hi, Leighann. It's my pleasure to be here. Good morning.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:27
Good morning. So why don't we Why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
John Rood  02:34
Sure, absolutely. So I'm, I'm an entrepreneur based in Chicago. And I'm running right now a company called perceptual and we're going to talk, I think, at length about what we do there. We provide compliance solutions for companies of all sizes that are looking to get compliant with emerging regulation around automated hiring systems, machine learning and artificial intelligence. Previous to that, I've been in the education industry for 10 years, where I built a company in test prep and pre health and pre medical. And before that, I would have been in management consulting and and that's been my path.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:12
Awesome. So Prorceptual. First, how did you come up with this name?
 
John Rood  03:21
Oh, my gosh. So I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. And I've tried my very best to learn what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. And two things that I'm bad at are naming companies and picking logos. So to be honest with you, I went on a really cool site that just has company names and has the URLs available. I saw a Proceptual it looked cool, it turns out, it means kind of a funky, little used math term. So it's kind of like, you know, kind of like techie kind of AI. So I snapped it up. Luckily, I then got the sense to hire a good marketing person. So we got new logo and everything but but kept the name which I like.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:59
Awesome. So tell me a little bit about, you know, how you came up with the idea to start this particular, you know, business and and why.
 
John Rood  04:10
Yeah, sure. So, I after I'd kind of gotten out of our last business, which we sold, I started to get really interested in artificial intelligence. And this was, you know, a year or two ago and it just kind of starting to get to get really big and I guess kind of like the mainstream of our of our consciousness and our media as a society. And I started looking more and more into, into kind of the world of what some people call AI safety or AI responsibility. Basically, the idea that with these new tools, we have to figure out ways to make this emerging technology work for us, as you know, basically as humans, as opposed to potentially against us. And so I started reading about that quite a bit and then saw, you know, there really hadn't been even as early as last year. Any Government regulation of artificial intelligence or machine learning, but I saw that that was about to change. And one of the places where I saw it was most susceptible or most needing really a regulation was in human resources and people operations. When we think about artificial intelligence, safety and responsibility, we think about, first of all, what are the contexts where it really matters. So, you know, if you had an artificial intelligence on, you know, in your, in your shopping algorithm, and it said, You like red shoes, but in fact, you like green shoes, like, who cares, that's not, that's not a big deal. But if someone does, or doesn't get a job, for, you know, for, for for the wrong reason, that's a huge deal, right. And we, as a society, you know, obviously in our government are trying to protect people, and make sure that companies do the right thing, and that there's fairness in our in our employment market. So I started to focus in there, and then started to see some of the regulations that are in effect, the first one being in New York, and I know, we'll talk about that probably at length, there'll be more regulations. And again, we'll talk about this in several other states, and then we expect there'll be some federal regulation in the next year, maybe 18 months. So I saw that, you know, this was a place where there was going to be a big need in the market. And, you know, given my experience running small to then medium sized businesses, I knew that, you know, everyone's working hard already. And when you're at, you know, a business with 100 or 200 employees, there's no compliance department, there's no general counsel, usually. And so when the HR leader gets into compliance regulation just plopped on on her desk. It's a it's a big issue, right? So I put our company together, to try to figure out, you know, how can we use both technology and smart people put together a suite of products that would help companies get compliant with these new laws as efficiently as possible?
 
Leighann Lovely  06:58
That's awesome. And it you know, as soon as you say, like, AI, we've all seen the movies of, you know, artificial intelligence taking over the world, right. I mean, Terminator, Terminator, and, you know, the newer ones coming out, you know, even kid versions of these movies coming out where, you know, our our artificial intelligence is taking over the world. And, and it's, it's true that it's a scary thing in the sense that we create these systems, and then how, and who is making sure that these systems are being fair to us humans? Right? How do we know that the information that we're putting in is being accurately governed? I mean, we Yeah, well, I'm assuming that we, you know, there's a bunch of little buttons that are being clicked of, Hey, make sure that you check this make sure that you check. But really, at the end of the day, how do we truly know, and then with the changing laws on a continuous, you know, continuing basis, who's going into these systems and saying, Oh, wait, I got to uncheck this box, or recheck this box, or does this box even exist? Right?
 
John Rood  08:12
Right. Yeah, there's, there's a lot to unpack there. And we can, you know, there's, there's kind of a set of discussions around automated systems generally. And then there's kind of a set in in specifically to, you know, HR and people leadership. In my, in my mind, I think what you said is exactly right, there has to be ways for us as a society, and then specifically, you know, us as HR and business leaders to think through, when we ask an automated system to do something, we have to make sure, first of all, that the inputs that are going into that system are the right inputs, and then we have to know what's going on in that system. So to break that down a little bit. If we have, you know, let's say we have, we have company X, and, you know, Company X has historically only hired, you know, hired disproportionate numbers of men or disproportionate numbers of a certain ethnic group. If we put that data into a machine, the machine doesn't know, it doesn't really have a preconceived notion of what that data means, but it will spit out the results it spits out, have a high risk of replicating that bias that went in. And a great example of this, this happened. This is famously happened at Amazon, several years ago, where basically they fed the Fed an algorithm, all the resumes of successful software engineers and you know, this is their logic makes sense. And basically they said, Let's see who's successful Amazon will put their background into machine and then it can spit out the the people that are that are applying for those positions that we think will be most successful. What they didn't realize was that disproportionately at that time, and maybe still now, I don't know but but at that time, Amazon hired lots lots more men in software engineering roles. So the algorithm sees that, even in a in one of the big challenges around this issue is, even if you scrape that information, right, so even if you put these resumes in, and don't tell people what what gender people are, the machines can figure it out, right? So they figure it out with things that are like highly correlated with gender can be highly correlated with race. And so the results that is puts out in the recommendations that it makes tends to replicate those biases. And those are that's like one one very big, probably the biggest sort of example in the screening process for, for people operations of some of the dangers that we're trying to, to solve for.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:36
Interesting. So because, wow, because it's so highly intelligent, it's able to actually predict the possibly the race and the gender of the individual based on the data that you're entering. And therefore the system becomes bias without us even knowing, because we are humans, putting the information into the system.
 
John Rood  10:57
Right? That's exactly right. And you know, the system itself, think about, think about the example of of race. Even if we strip racial or ethnic signifiers out of the data we put in which most companies weren't right, that's not right. No one's trying to create bias results, right. So we don't put that data in, right? If the machine takes things like zip code, which are highly correlated with race, or surnames, which are highly correlated with race, and says, Well, from from now on, you know, we've had more success hiring people from this set of zip codes, and it outputs that, and then it turns out that that's, you know, you know, a fancy schmancy neighborhood with, you know, only wealthy people in it. That's a really bad result. Right. So those are the kinds of things that we're that we're we're trying to solve. You know, and importantly, again, it's not that the people creating these algorithms are doing that on purpose. It's just that that could happen. And those are the things that we have to be aware of. And, you know, importantly, our government, both at the federal and the state level, starting to look into that in a lot of detail.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:58
Interest. Oh, my gosh, that. Wow. Is? So where do you even begin? I mean, how do you even? Yeah,
 
John Rood  12:13
Yeah, great question. So I thought about that problem a lot, obviously. And here's what here's, here's my thought process, we kind of created what what our what our company is trying to do. So I've been around HR and people operations for a long time, both in you know, running those operations at midsize companies. I'm on the board of a company here in Chicago that does corporate training. So I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of stuff. And what I see is everyone, I shouldn't say everyone, almost everyone wants to do the right thing, right? Almost everyone in the HR world wants to hire the right person, meet that meet our diversity, inclusion goals, and just need help doing it. So the way that I think about it is, first of all, we take that as a as a given. And also, secondly, we want to figure out how to do it at scale and how to do it in a standardized way. So, you know, I think it's possible, I could have said, you know, let's think about like really grandiose plan to make everything perfect, I'm gonna go around to companies and be like, Hey, you shouldn't do this. It's the right thing to do. And certainly, we would get some uptake on this, but people are busy, right? And so it's hard to go and say like, here's the thing that you don't have to do. It's gonna be expensive. Let's do it. So the way I thought about it instead is the government is doing a lot of work on this right. And again, both the state the federal and federal levels. So what what we're doing is basically going regulation by regulation, and creating the right solutions to help companies comply with those. So our first regulation is coming up in New York City. Technically, it's in effect today. But they've decided not to enforce this new law until April 15. We'll have a second law in Colorado, which is more related to data privacy, but we're both kind of cover some of the same issues in employment, that's gonna go into effect during the summer, then we expect that we'll have regulations in California, probably this year, most likely Washington, DC this year. And then the you know, the big kahuna of this is the Federal Equal Opportunity Employment Commission, which you know, everyone in HR is very concerned with them and what they're doing, has identified the issue of bias and automated hiring tools is one of their top three priorities for the upcoming year. And we just on Tuesday, we're recording this on on a Thursday. So two days, two days ago, EEOC held a full day of public testimony and discussions around this issue. So a very long answer to your really good question. Like how do we how do we start doing this? Well, the government is is is gonna basically do it for companies, whether we like it or not. And, you know, what I'm trying to put together is those solutions to make that streamlined, to make sure that you know, HR leaders are already working 60 hours a week, don't Don't have to wade through, you know, 35 pages of of guidance on this stuff, we're gonna put that all together for them.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:07
So in layman's terms, basically any company that is using, and right now you mentioned New York, and Colorado, any companies in those states that are using an applicant tracking systems, so as an example items or to Leo, you know, two of the ones that come to my mind are going to start as of April 15, you said it's going to be enforced in both of those states or just New York, just in New York City, okay, just in New York City are going to start being audited to make sure that they are following a new regulation that is coming out by the EEOC, making sure that they are following certain guidelines around how that information comes in and make sure that it is more than not taking certain things into account such as race, or gender, or, and more equal to all applicants who are coming in. Because as of right now, the EEOC is is concerned that those systems could be biased in some way?
 
John Rood  16:16
Yeah, let me let me break that down a little bit. And I think that one of the one of the most challenging things about this this year and in this market is that every state is going to do it a little bit differently until we do have federal guidance. So let's start with let's start with this New York regulation. So this is for for those of you who want to look it up at home. This is it's called local law 144 of 2021. It's a New York City ordinance. So it's not even New York State's New York City, but obviously, that's a very large market. It covers every company of any size, which I was surprised about when I first heard about it, that uses what they call our sorry, that is so any company of any size that hires people in New York City, right. So it doesn't doesn't necessarily have to be based in New York City. In theory, if you're, you know, a California company, and you have, you know, 1000 employees, and you have one in New York, in theory, this, this pertains to you, although there'll be an enforcement question down the road. But here's what the here's the law entails. So companies that use what the law calls automated employment decision tools, have to get an I have to do a couple of things. But let's break down first, what that what those automated tools mean, the law defines it as, in a couple of ways. So the first way is, when there is a machine or algorithm that's making part of the decisions, the employment funnel, that's a system that that will require compliance. So for example, and the biggest example, by far is going to be resume resume screening. If you you know, you post a job, you get 500 applicants, your ATS, or the job board or you know, whatever, whatever software it is, is going to just show the hiring manager, the top 50, or the top 100. Right. So clearly, lots of those resumes are being screened out. Sometimes we know why sometimes you don't know why. But that's a place where you know, if the computer is making that decision, as opposed to the person, that tool is going to be under the law. We'll also see use cases, which will be covered under the law in the assessment world. So anytime you are giving candidates a score, or anytime that you were that you were using an assessment to rank order candidates, that's going to fall into law as well. There's exceptions there, there's always some nuance, but you know, for example, if we give someone you know, Myers Briggs, there's no reason to think that ENTJ is better than I, you know, INTJ or whatever. But if you were using that, and then saying, Hey, we're only going to take the ease and out the eyes, then there's a compliance issue, right. So if a if a if a company is using those tools, the law requires a couple things. The first and by far the most most challenging is there has to be an independent third party audit of the results of those systems. So interestingly, we're not auditing in this situation for this law, the inputs are what's happening in, you know, kind of in the black box of the computer, we're just looking at the outputs for this law. So we're generating a report that basically says, you know, let's say we did a hiring screen, and we're going to break down how many applicants were successful in that process by men and women, and then by the five racial or ethnic categories that are defined by the EEOC separately. And we have to say, you know, if you if you advanced 80% of your Asian women through this hiring process, but you only advanced you know, 20% of your you know, if you're Latino men, for example, that's a problem right? So those that's the information that we have to output. Companies have to put it on their website. Companies have to do some note application requirements that the systems are in use, and then companies will be in compliance with that law. And again, like you mentioned, Colorado, California, those will be different. Those will be very different.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:10
Right? So okay, so lot there. So in the law is stating that you have to have a third party do this. So there is no way around of hiring somebody, you know, to come in and be a compliance manager for this, it has to be a third party. So there's, there's no way around actually hiring somebody to come in and do this for you. Which means that I mean, this is something that companies are now going to have to budget for.
 
John Rood  20:38
Yeah, absolutely. So there's two ways there's that the independence of the auditor is defined in the law. First of all, the vendor itself cannot simply conduct an audit on its own systems, and then give it to its customers. It's very clear that, first of all, that's not independent. And secondly, that the compliance responsibility falls on the employer and not the vendor in this law. Secondly, exactly like you said, it's clear that the auditor can't be an employee can't be an investor can't be a board member, etc, etc, of the company itself. So that's kind of why we put what we're doing together. We're, that's what, that's what we do. That's what we're going to do for companies, because by law, they can't do it themselves.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:20
Interesting. Wow. And it makes sense. I mean, I'm not, you know, I sit here and go, Oh, my gosh, but It completely makes sense. And the fact that we are going in and, first of all, you know, I talked to a lot of people about the whole, you know, applying to an automated system, and you mentioned 500 applicants, any company would be like, Yeah, I got 500 applicants to apply. But you know, a lot of if you talk to the people who are applying, right to these positions, one, people hate applying through applicant tracking system systems, I mean, you're applying to a black hole, you apply, you never hear back, you have no idea. A lot of companies, I mean, these systems are set up to be able to do an auto reply, thank you for applying to our position. And then when the position is closed, it's it's designed to be able to say, hey, this position has been, you know, filled again, thank you for your interest, you know, we'll let you know if there's another opportunity that could fit your skills. And companies are not utilizing that, to do all of that there are plenty of employees out there that have applied to these positions, they never hear a single word on whether or not their application was even, you know, accepted. And when the position was closed, and you hear this time and time again, the applicant, you know, the employee, or the person applying that experience has been lost completely. And it's a frustrating, annoying, you know, position to be in when you spend hours of your day, I mean, it's a full time job looking for a job 100%. So it needs to change in so many different ways on on how these systems work. In my opinion, there are a lot of companies out there that I feel that they're it's it's pure laziness, because you can set these systems up to be very robust and very awesome tools. And the fact that they're not even utilizing them to their full potential, just speaks volumes to the fact that they're, they've lost their customer service when it comes to bringing employees in. So if they're not even using it to the full potential in that sense, what else is there missing? So I truly believe that there needs to be an audit system. However, on the flip side of that as an as a company, who's all of a sudden staring down the barrel of yet another expense that the government is going to impose on them? That is a, you know, a major frustration? Do you you know, with all that being said, Do you think that there's going to be companies out there that decide to eliminate these applicant tracking systems, or I shouldn't say eliminate, but to kind of go back to a little bit of the old school way and say, hey, just email your resume to me. Especially because we're in a time when there are there aren't 500 applicants applying? In some cases, companies only have, depending on the role 10 applicants applying?
 
John Rood  24:26
Yeah, I think it's I think it's definitely possible. And, you know, I've certainly talked to a number of especially smaller businesses, and this is how our business runs. I mean, we're a very small business to where we don't we don't use these tools, right. We we know people on our network, you know, we'll we'll put up a job, but then I'll manually look look at every single resume. So a lot of companies don't use these tools. The I've seen estimates our own data is highly skewed because people don't come talk to us if they're not using these systems. But I've seen data that something like 40 to 50% of companies are using these automate To tools that's going to skew towards midsize to large companies rather than small business for sure. But yeah, I think you're right. I think that especially, you know, especially sometimes we'll see in an applicant tracking system that there are and you mentioned this yourself like there's there's some automation modules, and there's some modules that don't use automation, right. So I think that definitely one thing that some businesses that just don't want to deal with this, this will do is turn off the automated parts of others, whatever system this is, and just kind of go without it until the regulatory environment is a little bit less uncertain and frothy? Yeah, I think that that, that could well be the case. The other side of it is, first of all, you know, the the cost of what we're doing and happy to talk about that is, you know, no one wants, no one wants to get a new expense on their in a budget, which they haven't, you know, haven't planned for it don't have authorization for like, that stinks for everyone. That said, the cost of you know, making the wrong hire is an order of magnitude worse, always. So I think that companies that are that are beneficial using these tools will probably just go through the compliance process. The other side of it, which we haven't talked as much about is, you know, fundamentally, if we are helping companies understand whether the tools that they're using are producing fair or unfair outcomes, that's not only a compliance issue, that's a that's a kind of a dei issue, as well. So I think that companies would want to know that, and will they, you know, will they have urgency on that issue? I don't know. But, you know, I think that if we're, if we're really interested in making sure that we've got fair hiring practices, and that's commitment that many companies have made just to do the right thing, this helps them fulfill that obligation as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:48
And I think that, you know, especially nowadays, companies are pushing for, you know, more, you know, equal opportunity or inclusion dei is becoming a conversation that is being had across the board with, I mean, everywhere, I don't know that there is a company that you can walk into that that doesn't, you know, understand for the first time, what Dei, you know, is whether or not they fool it, you know, understand the full breadth of what that means, you know, there's still companies that are a little bit behind in that. But that is a conversation that, that companies are having, for the first time on a regular basis of how can we, you know, infuse a little bit more, you know, inclusion, and, you know, spread our wings on that. And so, I truly believe that the majority of the companies out there are attempting to be, you know, more inclusive, and do the right thing, and try to change their culture to, you know, for the positive, which is, which is awesome, you know, for the first time in my career, I'm I'm seeing that shift, and that's happening at a at a much faster speed, then, than it would have if the pandemic never happened. Right. I think that we've all seen that. So with the implication now of of hiring individuals, I think they're doing that push. It just, it scares me with, you know, the constant changing in regulations. And so this is another piece that, you know, you and I kind of have talked about that, you know, regulations are constantly being rolled out. And you had mentioned that there's like, what, another five or six, you know, regulations out there. So, you know, with all of these regulations that are being rolled out, why do you think the government is acting on this now?
 
John Rood  28:41
So I think that, first of all, if we if we step back, so way, way, way back, EEOC at the federal level has since the 70s, done rulemaking in terms of, of this kind of like fairness in hiring. And so last year, actually, the EEOC put out a memo, it wasn't a regulation, but basically, what it said was, hey, all the stuff that you should be doing for your hiring process, you still have to do even if it's with this technology, right. So you're it's a company, the EEOC was clear that companies are responsible for fair hiring practices. And they can't simply say, Well, this algorithm that we got from some vendor made us do it, like they're gonna be responsible for those for those results. I think that EEOC has seen that more and more companies are using these kinds of automated tools, that number is likely to likely to go up because technology keeps advancing. But I also think that just the the consciousness of this issue is substantially higher this year than two years ago. Right. So two years ago, most sort of like average people were not talking about artificial intelligence, and you know, this year they are right so it's just a it's a much bigger portion of kind of the the thought share of our of our society. So I think that the government See, you know, hey, that's interesting, we should look at that. And then also, I think that you'll, you know, it just to be blunt about it state governments are, are very different in terms of their political leanings. And, you know, we're going to see that a lot of sort of the blue states, to us kind of the the political terminology, are really going to get out ahead of this. And especially the Oregon, especially California, and California is historically out in front of basically everything for HR and hiring regulations. So that's what that's what we can we can expect. So there'll be some leaders, there'll be some, you know, some catch up from other states as well. And then there'll be the federal action, which is already in process.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:41
Interesting. And so what do you think that some of this is going to look like? And how do you think it's going to affect? You know, and we all know that, you know, once it hits some of these big states that it just, it slowly rolls out everywhere? You know, we, except for legalizing marijuana, which? Sorry, lower? Right, right. Okay, anyways, I digress. Um, what do you think that some of these, you know, regulations are going to look like? And, I mean, what, what kind of impact? And I guess, you know, I always, you know, default to, you know, the financial impact that it's going to have on, you know, especially the larger companies, or I shouldn't say the larger companies, usually they're able to absorb those on a fairly easy level, it's usually the mid sized companies that, you know, have to have to figure out how do I come up with the funding for this, because they're, they're not, they're not small enough to eliminate, you know, these systems, they're not large enough to just be able to absorb the cost of what they have to do. You know, so what do you think the impact of some of these new regulations and again, for my audience, you know, this is not anything, this is not anything new, we're always have new regulations, you know, I go back to, you know, when the Affordable Care Act was implemented, and we all were like, Oh, my gosh, it's gonna cost so much in order to, you know, be in compliance with us. And really, when it was all said and done, you know, we were able to roll with that a lot of companies didn't see the financial impact on being becoming compliant the way that we had originally thought that it was going to be, you know, this huge cost to organizations, you know, we're most organizations were able to, you know, to roll without fairly easily, but I shouldn't say easily, but it wasn't as big of a deal as a lot of people were thinking it was going to be right.
 
John Rood  32:46
So what you're gonna see in this market is it's going to advance and I think a fairly similar way. And I think this is this is common, both for regulation and for technology, development in general. So right now, it's going to be annoying and onerous. And I don't know, it's not gonna be that expensive, but it'll, you know, there's certainly going to be costs associated with it, particularly as state different states are figuring out what to do. Right. So this is going to be the year that it's that it's going to be the most challenging as we go. I think that certainly at our company, we're using technology and, and software to try to make it cheaper to try to make it faster, try to get to compliance earlier. And I think that you'll see that as as the years progress, right. So it will be less, you know, we have to kind of put together these bespoke solutions for the states. And it'll be more like, here's, you know, here's the menu of states. It's tell us where you operate. And we'll, we'll send you the solution. ACA compliance was a great 140 1k compliance is one that we studied really closely. That was similar, people thought it would be hard. And now it's, you know, it's $5,000 for a midsize business every year to do with just a box to check. So I think it'll, I think it'll start it'll start developing like that. The other the other example, which is where this market is probably going to go is GDPR compliance, where again, it's it was amazing, right? And everyone remembers this, just like lay people remember, like, one day, there was no little accept cookies button, and then the next day, like every single website had to accept cookies button. It's gonna kind of be like that, right? So we'll it's figuring out what's the software solution to make this more straightforward. Now, that'd be the case, I do think that there will be lots of laws that are requiring third party auditing. So there is definitely kind of like a tech enabled services angle where this can't be done just with software. We have to have real people that people that kind of like sign up for the right code of ethics and are using their professional judgment in this as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:47
Very interesting. Very, very, so a lot to come. Do you? Do you have a place where people can, you know, follow you And, you know, hear updates on what's happening. And you're shaking your head.
 
John Rood  35:08
Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for asking. Yeah, so our company has proceptual and I'm sure we'll have links there, but proceptual is PROCEPTUAL, we're at proceptual.com, come to our website, sign up for our newsletter, we're on LinkedIn, you go to LinkedIn and follow us on LinkedIn, we post everything there as well. I would, I would love it if listeners, you know, like it. Even if you're not going to do this this year, even if these laws don't apply to you, because you're not located in these jurisdictions, everyone has to kind of keep this on their radar. So I mean, my hope is that everyone's comes and signs up and stays kind of in the know about these regulations. We're also happy to talk to anyone about how these regulations apply to them. So if you go to our website and fill out the contact form, we'll happy to talk to any, any, any people leader and HR leader for free talk through what are the regulations entail? Does your company have responsibilities? Are these responsibilities coming up? Possibly in April, which is, you know, three months away from from where we are now, to my to my two and a half, actually. So yeah, we're around and we're happy to talk to anyone about what their responsibilities will be.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:13
Right? So, and you, obviously, you're talking to individuals, but do you, you know, are you keeping people abreast on on what those regulations you know, on any any news, you know, YouTube channel or anything else? Because you're truly a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this?
 
John Rood  36:32
Yeah, it's funny, I was, I was gonna try to shoot something next week on YouTube. And now you've convinced me, I definitely have to do it. We're gonna mark it on my calendar. But yeah, what we do at our newsletter is, basically I see our job is that there's this big kind of community of people, it's not a there's a small community of people out there that that are really, really interested in this stuff. So there's a world of academics, think tanks, nonprofits and government people who put out these, like, long reports on artificial intelligence. You know, and I had mentioned we had on Tuesday, we had a, you know, seven hours of EEOC testimony. Yesterday, we had a full day, which ended at 9pm, of testimony from Colorado. So one of our jobs is like, we sit through that, and and try to distill that down into what do people leaders really need to know? Right? So take a seven hour testimony and say, like, here's the five bullet points of things that you need to be concerned about. That's what we try to do in our in our free publications.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:28
That's awesome. That's absolutely awesome. Because it's, it's a hard I mean, as an HR, obviously, you know, as an HR professional, it's hard to keep up on these regulations. It's hard to keep up on any regulations, or keep up on your job, because what HR departments now are pared down to, you know, one or two people, and staying on top of, you know, insurance and staying on top of everything in trying to keep up on the newest and, you know, the newest stuff that's popping up is is literally impossible. So that's absolutely awesome. So if you want to find John, he's, he's, you know, set where you can find him. But I will also have that in the show notes. So, and this has been an awesome conversation. But before we wrap up, I have a question of the season that I asked everybody. So I want to ask you that you had a preview of that. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your in your role? If you could?
 
John Rood  38:25
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And so I'm, you know, as I mentioned, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm founder CEO. So it was a hard question for me, because anything that I say is something that I can and should then go fix, right. So it's basically whatever I say is my fault. But I tried to think hard about it. And I thought that, you know, one thing that I want to see, changing in our in our company is, I just want us to be able to spread the word on this more. So I think that we try to do the best we can with marketing with free content. But you know, exactly like you said, we're both spreading the word on this, because our customers, mostly our customers, who when we first talk to them, I've never heard of this, they don't know anything about it. So we're both doing kind of our ongoing compliance obligations with our paid clients. But also we need to be keeping out getting out the word and spending time on our content. And it's that a that's always a hard balance at a small company.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:24
Right now. No, well, hey, John, this has been an awesome conversation. And it's definitely something that, you know, again, is, I'm passionate about I'm in the HR, you know, circle, I'm in it every day, talking to amazing people. And one of the conversations that will be coming up is is actually talking with somebody who's on the other side of, of an HR professional, who's on the other side, dealing with applicant tracking systems, because she's, you know, applying to positions right now. And, you know, it's amazing how much has changed in The last couple of years with regulations and, you know, utilizing these systems. So this is definitely something that I want to I'm gonna follow you and make sure that I keep up on these because it's, it is wildly interesting in it and I think it's going to have an impact on a lot of companies. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me and yeah.
 
John Rood  40:20
Leighann it's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:22
Yeah. You have a great day. You too. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Information 
Website – https://proceptual.com/ 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/johnrood1
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
companies, regulations, people, compliance, systems, hiring, perceptual, law, hr, EEOC, applicant tracking systems, applicants, DEI, applying, artificial intelligence, tools, states, employees, happening, resume
 

It’s Never to Early to Start Networking

Networking, as you have heard this season is so important and this is another fantastic conversation about the importance of networking. Tom Graybill the VP of Sales for Tri-Marq donates his time to help college-age and high school-age students learn the art of networking, a skill that we use from time to time and some of us more than others. Tom has a wealth of knowledge, with years in sales and a crazy cool background in news offering up great wisdom on the subject.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:10
Well, you're in for a treat. Today I am speaking with Tom Graybill. He is the Vice President of Sales for Tri-Marq Communications, a video and event production company working globally to assist clients from entrepreneurs to Fortune 100 companies. Tom has worked at Tri-Marq for 27 years, and previously was in television news. As a producer for stations in Miami and Milwaukee. Tom is involved in many professional and nonprofit organizations, including serving as president of the Wisconsin chapter of meeting professionals International. Tom graduated from the University of Miami. He has been married for 31 years and has two adult daughters. And a fun fact he was on a game show. Tom, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation.
 
Tom Graybill  02:07
Thank you, Leighann. It's, my pleasure, and I appreciate the opportunity to share.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:11
So why don't you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Tom Graybill  02:17
Sure. So I'm Tom Graybill. I work for a company called Tri-Marq communications. We're a video and event production company. I worked there for a very long time. In fact, in March, it'll be 28 years working for the same company, which is which is pretty crazy to think about these days. Before I worked at Tri-Mark, I was in television news. I worked at television stations in Milwaukee and also one in Miami. My tenure in Milwaukee was marked by being there. During the whole Dahmer case, that's probably the biggest case that I had to deal with, which was interesting. I did a lot of work. During that time, I actually produced some news specials every night with updates on the just specifically on the dollar case itself. So that was a it was an interesting, interesting time. You know, going back I'm originally from Ohio, I but I went to school in South Florida. And at a certain point, I got that job in Miami. And then I got the job in Wisconsin, which was very jarring to my then fiance who had never lived anywhere else but South Florida. And so moving to Wisconsin was a bit of a trauma. And every winter, if there's a lot of snow, my marriage teeters on the brink. But so far, we've been married for 31 years going on 32 So somehow I've convinced her to stay all these years.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:49
Wow, yeah, it would be kind of a trauma going from Miami weather to Wisconsin, which you know, right now as we record this, it's, you know, the snow it's it's not bad snow, but it's you know, you go outside and the wind hits you in the face and wow. And the Dahmer case Wow. Which right now everybody knows, you know, people who didn't know who Dahmer was the younger generation. Everybody's becoming aware of who he was because of this Netflix special that just recently came out. So you were actually like in that reporting on that as it was happening?
 
Tom Graybill  04:32
Yeah, it actually was I was I was a news producer. So I was I was producing newscasts about, you know, about everything but then the Dahmer thing happened while I was producing the five o'clock news, and I it's actually a little a little jarring for me because, you know, kind of following along. I a lot of things. I remembered Exactly. And they did a very good job in the Netflix special or the series on how they did picked up certain things. I actually got referenced in in the newspaper about the dumber case, because I made a phone call to Dominus grandmother asking her for an interview. And she kept pressing me for why why why do you want to talk to me? What do you know about your grandson? And? And finally I, I mentioned that you know that he was under arrest and there was some considerations going on. And apparently there were two newspaper reporters in the room at the time when she was on the phone with me. And they commented how another media person had so callously mentioned something despite the woman's age. So I'm that terrible person who didn't say my name, which I'm awesome about. But But yeah, so I also that, I also was mentioned another time, because I have produced I believe, I still hold the record for having produced the worst newscast in the history of wt, MJ television. News history. So why now? So I have you know, and they reported that in the newspaper as well on on a newscast that just went sideways, and etc. So are you for me,
 
Leighann Lovely  06:07
Oh, geez. Oh, my gosh. So let's switch gears here a little bit on top of your day job, which is really what I wanted to talk to you about, you know, you're you, you work a great deal with youth and helping them learn how to network. This is where it I really want to talk to you about because it's, it's ever more important these days. And, yeah, let's let's jump into that.
 
Tom Graybill  06:35
Sure that doing that is one of the one of the great pleasures I have in my life. And what it is, is I will go and speak to college classes. And now I've started to branch out into high school classes as well. And teach them the value of networking, I teach them, why you want to learn how to network, where you network, who you network with, and then give them some tips on how to engage in a conversation with somebody who you don't know. And, you know, these are, in many cases, skills that are never taught, you know, I can't say that I've run into anybody who's ever been taught networking. So, you know, so it's invaluable for them to learn this skill and to learn it early on. Because most of us as adults, we learn network by being forced to do it, and just doing it and just eventually finding our you know, finding our voice and finding our ability to go and interact with other people. And it's very fulfilling, especially when I see students who at the beginning of my talk, are kind of like, oh, I don't know, what's going on. Why, why is this important. And then by the end, you can see the light bulb going on. And you know, that you've given them, you know, a hand up on their future career and their future success.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:57
And that's something that you said is really, is really important. A lot of us just learned by saying, but or by being told, like you need to go and do this, right. And with no direction, no understanding, and you and I talked about this in, you know, pre prior to, you know, to recording today about how we were taught, right, or we were what we were told the goal was go to this event, and come out with to sales or come out with a sale or, and that was the only direction that we were given.
 
Tom Graybill  08:35
Exactly, and that's a terrible way to network. That is that, that's a way that becomes it becomes very frustrating, because, you know, people who are at networking events, no matter where they are on the spectrum, and in terms of their networking life, they're not there to do business, you know, unless you literally can, you know, hold your jacket open and and go like, Hey, you want to buy this watch, you pretty much can't do business at a networking event anyway. So it really is about making connections. And what I try to do is kind of pull some of that mystery away. And some of that uncomfortability away from students. Because, you know, they're like, oh, you know, it's so mysterious, and I don't want to do it poorly, etc, etc, etc. So, you know, having them be able to go and have some ammunition, know a little bit about what they're doing. Be able to be confident in terms of how do I how do I talk to a stranger? How can I interact with somebody who I don't know, and where do you one of the things I was gonna say one of the things I tell them to do is the next time you're in an elevator, talk to another person in an elevator, because all of us generally ignore the fact that there's other people in the elevator and we look at our shoes or our water our phone or the you know the flashing lights above the door.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:59
All right, talk to other people. And that's what I was gonna ask where do you start? Where, where? How do you because it's hard to I guess, if you have an introvert versus an extrovert, you know, I'm, I'm a born extrovert, I will walk up to anybody and it drives my husband crazy. By the way, I'll walk up to anybody and start a conversation. And I have learned, because this was not something that I, I knew how to do, I have learned to find a quick commonality. And that is something I had to learn to do. Because I thought that if I just started a conversation, they'll be interested in what I'm talking about, which is completely wrong. But so I've learned to pick up on the cues of oh, they just picked, I just pique their interest with this or asking them, so how do you start educating them? on where to begin?
 
Tom Graybill  10:58
You know, a big thing really is, what do you talk to people about? And I actually have a really nice diagram that I put onto a whiteboard or a Blackboard, and I talk about different things that you can have a conversation about. And they're, they're real basic stuff, you know, you know, the first thing I always draw as a house. And I asked the ask the kids, what does that represent? And they say, Well, it's a house, I said, well, it represents where you live. We all live somewhere. And in some cases, you know, we've lived in interesting areas, in some cases, we haven't. But you know, that that's a it's an easy conversation starter for somebody, you know, an easy conversation first, you know, you sit next to somebody, and then I just had this happened last night, where I was sitting next to someone who I knew, but I didn't know everything about her. And I asked her, have you always lived in Wisconsin, and then conversation starts from there. So a very easy way to engage in a conversation is to ask somebody where they live. But there's a number of different topics that you easily, you know, and I, I love ones that are very unusual, I will go in. And a lot of times, my first question to somebody who I don't know, who I'm trying to engage with is what do you do for fun? Because it's a very non traditional type of question. And everybody does something for fun. And the thing that's awesome about that, is that almost immediately, that person, if they're, you know, they're in the moment, they'll get a smile on their face, they'll feel good about themselves, because then they'll tell me that they like to knit or they like to sing, or they like to, you know, drive fast or whatever, whatever it is that they do for fun. Now, I've made them feel good. And to be frank, that really is the basis of networking, the very first rule of networking is all about giving. And you can give in many different ways, but an easy way to give is just make somebody feel good.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:00
Right. And to that point is when people feel like you're genuinely interested in them. That releases that good, that feel good feeling right? You take an interest in them. And it's kind of human nature, for them do genuinely, especially if they are a networker to in turn take interest in you. And that definitely, and that's where the natural flow comes from. So what is the typical age of these individuals?
 
Tom Graybill  13:37
So I, when I when I first started doing this, I this actually was an outgrowth of something that I was doing when I was a member of a professional group in Milwaukee with the Business Marketing Association, which is, unfortunately no more. But at the time, we started a subcommittee called the university outreach committee. And what we did was we went out to campuses. So we went to Marquette and whitewater and Ws CTC and other campuses around and we brought information to the students. Certainly, you know, both in an altruistic hey, here's some information that will help you in your career, but also in a sense of, hey, we're the BMA and, you know, we'd love to have you join our organization, if it's if it's right for you, it was you know, a matter of, you know, kind of a recruitment aspect, but giving them some value to show them that, hey, this is a good organization to be part of. After I stepped away from that organization, I was asked by some of the same groups who I had, you know, had appeared, you know, at their campuses before, to say, Hey, can you come back? And can you bring this this conversation to this new class and so that's really where that that grew out of. So, I talked to I have kind of a standing invitation at WC TC and etc, which again, you're you're talking about, it's not necessarily the traditional students who's, you know, in their, you know, late teens, early 20s. You know, they have certainly plenty of adult students who go to technical schools. But then recently, I've got a gig at Concordia University. And they, they're asking me back now to speak to four different classes. And then recently, I started speaking at high schools, mainly Milwaukee Lutheran High School. And that has been very interesting to bring the concept of networking to students who are these are their seniors for the most part in high school, so they're getting ready to begin their college career or their regular careers. But it's something that no one's ever spoken to these students before about why you would network? For many of them, it's a foreign concept, what what is this? You know, this, that's, it's an adult thing. And it's amazing, the kids who get it, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you are so far ahead now, right? In terms of what you know, how you're going to be able to interact with other people, you know, not just even necessarily Oh, how are you going to benefit my career, but just to make relationships? You know, to be able to, you know, just represent yourself well, and become known, I always tell the kids, you know, it's the old adage, is, it's not what, you know, it's who you know, right? But the reality is, is that it's not what you know, it's who knows you, right? And networking is how you get known well.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:33
And it's, I mean, it's no different than, I guess, going to a party, but staying professional and sober. While you would hope that that's you know, and having conversations that are just a little bit higher level versus, Hey, man, you you want to go play basketball, or it's, you know, a little bit a little bit, you know, high or low. And sometimes this sometimes, you know, it digresses into, you know, although I guess, but for the most part, when you go to these, you know, these events, everybody there is, for the most part, everybody there is with the same goal in mind, let me meet somebody, find some commonalities, and see if it makes sense for us to pass business, or connect each other with other people who they could do business with. And as long as you go in with the, the idea that I'm going to help somebody today, and not the idea of who can help me, you're going to be successful, because it's always a good first get later mentality, which is the hard, you know, the hard lesson I learned, because I was taught incorrectly. And I think that many people who, you know, coming up in business, originally, not I shouldn't say many, but there were a lot of us that were taught incorrectly. Go in there, get as many business cards as you can, and you know, get a sale. And it was like, my first networking, you know, a couple of networking meetings were horrific. I hated it. I'm like, this is horrible. It was absolutely gut wrenching, horrible, you know, and it didn't dawn on me until I just gave up one day, and I just stood there, and I'm like, I'm just gonna have a drink. And I'm gonna stand by the bar. And then people started to approach me and they were asking me questions, and they were teaching me without me even knowing it. The right way to do it. And then I started to figure it out.
 
Tom Graybill  18:52
Yeah, I think I think that that's a very common story. I think that that is the story for most people. And it's a question of, you know, figuring it out at some point, understanding that, you know, it isn't about how many business cards you can get, and even who you speak with. Now, certainly, there's times that I go to events, and I'm targeted, I there's people who I know I want to speak with and I want to make sure that I try to speak with them and introduce myself to them. But there's so many great rewarding relationships that I've had with with people who I know will likely never give me business. They may not even ever refer me. But they're fantastic people to know. And until you take that step out, and and, you know, interact with other people you just don't know, I think the other the other big problem is that a lot of people who are going to networking events specifically, are people who are in sales, you know, in some in some capacity, and in many cases, they have a sales manager or someone else you know, or the owner of the company or whoever, who has has expectations for what they're going to get out of that networking experience. Because in many cases, there's, there's, you know, there's an expenditure, you know, to attend the networking event, right. And that's such a, it's such a short sighted type of approach to networking, it's, well, oh, if you didn't meet the right people, and come back with business cards, and, and, you know, appointments, and whatever, that that was, that was failed. And so networking doesn't work. That is a very inappropriate type of approach to networking, networking, networking should never be quick. Networking takes time. But the relationships that you build are deep. And, again, it's all that's really what's important.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:51
And I completely agree with that, if they're the lasting relationships will follow you your career, if you do it, right. And getting back to the young individuals, I had a conversation, just actually yesterday with somebody that we were talking about, you know, the hiring cycle and the way that people now are getting jobs. And she made a very bold statement, and she goes, it's no longer about applying to jobs, it's no longer it is become who you know, it is not, it's not what you know, anymore. It's become who you know, in order to get your next job. So in that conversation that, you know, we had, it was, you know, networking is that much more important to the hiring process to finding the next opportunity and to have somebody like you approach our high school students approach our college students and get them involved, even for your next internship. You know, if you're looking for that in college, it's, it becomes that much more of an important aspect to even landing that possible first job, you may be able to, you know, landed sooner, or even level up because of who you know. Now, Oh,
 
Tom Graybill  22:16
Absolutely. Every job I've had, I got, basically through networking. And it's invaluable, because hunting for a job can be extremely frustrating. I've never had to hunt for a job. It's been a wonderful experience, because I've had people who will vouch for me, that's the other aspect too. When you go in and you've networked, when you go in for that interview, you're already a step or two ahead of that other person who just simply called in answer to, you know, a LinkedIn job description or anything else like that. You go in with the reputation of the person who referred you going into that. And that's, that's invaluable. I mean, I, you know, my first job in news, I basically lied throughout my throughout my interview, but because I was recommended by my professor at college, who knew that the assistant news director and vouched for me and I, you know, I did a good enough job of, hey, look, I can do the job that he hired me. Now, admittedly, I think they were also hired anybody with a heartbeat. But nonetheless, it still was, it still was an important thing. My job that I got in Milwaukee, was literally because I had a friend of mine who had worked at a TV station in Milwaukee, WT and J. His news director, had called down to the station in Miami, where he was working, I asked him if he wanted to come back and be a weekend news producer. And he was like, wow, it wasn't really in his plans. He wanted to go to a bigger market, then back to Milwaukee. And the new structure. So was there anybody else who might be a good candidate? I happen to be standing next to me, he hands me the phone. He says here talk to this guy. That it didn't he told me it was a job opportunity or anything else, just decent. Just talk to him. And that's how I got my interview in Milwaukee. And that's I mean, every job I've had has always been networking. My first internship I got was because my mother was a great networker. And she, you know, talk to a GM at a TV station in Canton, Ohio and said, My son needs an internship. You know, when when will you have him in for an interview? There was no like, could you do this? It was more like you're going to do this. But right. Networking is just so important.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:36
And that's another thing is that when you meet these people in person, you then connect with them on LinkedIn. And I'm not saying that you have to meet everybody in person before you connect on LinkedIn. I mean, that was originally one of the ways that it started. I'm not going to date myself. But I will originally when LinkedIn started, that is we used to have what we call it LinkedIn parties, we'd all get together, we'd meet in person, and then we connect on LinkedIn. And that's how you like connected with people. It wasn't like, connecting, and then saying, Hey, should we meet up and talk? You know, it was you met them, and then you connect it. But that's the other thing with with LinkedIn, I'm pretty, I'm almost no, I'm positive that every job that I have ever gotten, I have either been reached out to on LinkedIn. And they have either come to me and said, Hey, we want to interview you and sourced me away from where I was at. Or I've gone after a specific position and reached out directly to the hiring manager and said, Hey, I applied to this job. And then they've just circumvented the entire application process, and come directly to me and said, Yep, we're interested. Or you're right, I knew them in person, and they just didn't even have me fill out an application of or even look at my resume. And then just offered me the job on the, you know, on the spot, we'd like to hire you. Like, do you need me to send you anything? Nope, no. Okay, great. I mean, because again, you're it all becomes who, you know, it becomes reputation, it becomes, Yep, I've already you know, you've got like five people vouching for you, we know each other in this in this community. And I am already ready to pull the trigger. And it's like, okay. And when you build, basically a bunch of individuals around you that all understand and know you like minded individuals, even not like minded engine, individuals, people who are, but they also respect you enough to be like, yep, we may not think the same. But I'll still vouch for this person, because I've seen her body of work or his body of work. And, and it's, I have to respect it. And that's what the core of networking, either in person or virtually comes down to, in my opinion, now, you're the expert. Well, I don't know, if everybody just just for my audience here, Tom is making a face.
 
Tom Graybill  27:23
So that's the other great thing about networking is that it's I, I'm still growing, I'm still learning, I'm still, you know, you know, perfecting my craft, if you will, in the networking world. And one of the things that you learn, too, as you go through networking is sometimes, you know, what you think the way you're, you know, your particular approach may not work, depending upon the group that you're in, you know, there's certain groups that are very open to networking, it's very easy, and that's the DNA and the blood of that group. And then there's other groups where it's like, okay, this is going to be a longer process, this is not going to be how many business cards can I hand out? It's going to be, okay, how can I cement a deeper relationship, you know, within that, but, but to me, networking is so beneficial in in just so many different ways, even just, you know, communicating with anybody. You know, one of the things that I strive for, is just to make one person smile. And, and again, it's, it's, it's not necessarily networking in a, you know, in a big, giant word, oh, you're networking with somebody, you know, to make them smile, but, but doing that is how you become a good networker. Because people then feel good about, oh, hey, there's Tom, whatever, you know, and you know, and you get known. And that's fantastic. It's a great feeling to be known.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:56
Yes. And here's, here's another thing is that when the first time that I met, you saw you in a room, you're not an easy person to Miss, how tall are you? Six, five, okay, you're not an easy person to miss and you have a presence about yourself. You're confident you're in. And again, I've I've seen a mix of introverts and extroverts all networking. You don't. And I want to put that out there. You don't have to be an extrovert to network. But there is definitely something to be sad about the extroverts in the room, a confidence in which they carry and often those people are the ones who are sought out. The ones who I really like to meet this individual, they seem like they know what they're doing, regardless of whether or not we actually do it.
 
Tom Graybill  29:49
Well you you've already heard that I just you know, I just lie to get jobs. So there you go. You know, but it is and the thing is, is that none of us are are always extroverts, none of us, you know, can depending upon, you know, the the atmosphere who you're with, I mean, just think of being a date to a wedding for someone you know, you know, so your, your loved one that you're going with, it's it's their family or their friends or whatever else, and you know, no one there, you are an introvert, and you need to be an introvert at the start of that type of thing out of respect, because people don't know who you are, you can't just barrel in and go, Oh, hey, look at me, etcetera, etcetera. It doesn't work that way. And so I think, you know, no one, I think, again, is born as an extrovert, we grow into it, because we have confidence, we know that we can have a conversation. And I do think that there's a responsibility that extroverts have at networking events, is to seek out those who might have more of a challenge, you see that person who's there by themselves, and I'm in I'm in a number of different professional groups, and I was actually president of, of one statewide organization at a time. And I would tell my board after we always had a board meeting, before we had our regular meeting with the with the rest of the members, and I would tell my board before they left, you are all in membership now. Because you are representing the chapter. And so you need to make sure that you are interacting with people because you are in membership now.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:29
Right, and you you hold that responsibility of when you see somebody standing there by themselves quiet, not understanding or not even not understanding, but but having that fear of how do I approach or, and there's still some times where I'll walk up to a group of people who are engrossed in a conversation, and I'm like, do I break in and introduce myself? Or do I let them finish their conversation, where's the line of, like, Hey, I'm here, or I'll just quietly go on. And then being the person who is engrossed in a conversation, you know, I always try to remember if somebody new walks up, that I'll pause, introduce myself, introduce the person I'm talking with. And then, you know, kind of finish our finish up our conversation really quick, and then bring in the new person because I hate being that person on the outside. And those are just things that as now a seasoned networker, I notice. Whereas somebody who's new, they don't.
 
Tom Graybill  32:40
And that's an that can be a an easy source of frustration. Because, you know, I don't know how to do this, I don't want to embarrass, embarrass myself, I don't want the other people to appear awkward. One of the things that I that I do in when I go and teach is that I show body language of how to be welcoming, if you're having a conversation to welcome other people into your circle, if you will, and, and at times how to see, well, these are people who are embroiled in a, you know, a personal conversation that they're not open to, and so maybe it's time to look for somebody else. And it's not just a matter of engaging, but I also teach how to disengage, which is a very important skill to have. And, you know, it's one of those things where you can have it make a great impression on the person you've spoken with, and they can be feeling really good about you. But then if you disengage poorly, now, now they have a different, you know, their last image or their last memory of you is not a good one. And it can really cost you, you know, status in their eyes. And it's, again, these these techniques, none of it's rocket science, it's, it's more of just understanding how you know, the psychology of people, right? And how you need to make an impression and how you can make one quickly. And certainly how you avoid making a negative impression.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:13
And that's it's while disengaged, that's wildly important, because at a networking event, you never want to get stuck talking to the same person all night long. Or you've defeated, you know, the, and a lot some people will they'll, they'll bring, trust me in the early days, I'd be like, Okay, I'm not gonna go to this one alone. I'm gonna bring a wing man. And then what you find yourself doing is standing and talking to that person all night long, and you're like, wait a second, it just completely defeated the purpose. So I'd go with that person. Then we would split up and we would walk around the room and then we come back together and be like, Okay, how are you feeling? Are you comfortable? Are you talking to people? And then it was like, Okay, now I'm getting into my groove where I have absolutely no problem going to a networking meeting completely by myself. Often walking in and being totally fine. Even a brand new, you know, group that I've never been to, typically I run into somebody I know anyways, but again, that's, you know that this is what happens when you've been doing this for too long. Like, oh, I know everybody here I need to find a new group. But, you know, it's when you disengage where you're talking, and all of a sudden that conversation gets to the point where it's like, okay, we've exchanged information, we've, you know, we've, now it's time for me to move on, it's time for you to move on. You never want to be like, Okay, peace out. Gotta go. You know, so, I struggled with that one in the beginning of okay, now I've spent, you know, 20 minutes. And I've only got, you know, half an hour left before this is over. What do you say to that person? Or what body language? Or how do you walk away from that person without them feeling like, you're not interested? Or you're being rude? Right?
 
Tom Graybill  36:08
Yeah, yeah, it's wildly important. Yep. And it doesn't have to be awkward. It really is more putting yourself to a certain sense in their shoes, on how am I going to make this person feel good, as I'm leaving them, right. And, and I, in my, in my classes, I give techniques, you know, and some key phrases and some other words that you can use. And, again, the great thing about is that I give enough variety that the person can kind of pick and choose what they're most comfortable with what fits their personality, how are they, you know, and even even with that, too, it just gives them options. I mean, you know, you're not always going to start every conversation with what do you do for fun? You know, sometimes it's not going to be appropriate, sometimes we need to start in a different way, right? So you have to, you know, it's good to have a number of different options, in any situation that you can adapt to what is the most appropriate for that that particular moment. You know, and again, once you get experience in networking, it just, it just becomes so easy. It's just, it's just what you do. It's not any special sauce or, or secret method or anything else. It'd be, you know, good Networkers are very genuine, and how they relate to other people. It's not forced.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:27
No, and I absolutely agree. You know, and in my key because of my background, HR, staffing, I always start I almost always with somebody I've never met, what do you do for a living? It's ingrained in me my eye. When we walk up to somebody at a wedding or a party. It's, it's my husband is like, God, you never stop working. You always like it's, it's just, it's just the question I ask, what do you do for a living? Are you happy? Do you enjoy it? Like, oh, my God, I'm interviewing this person.
 
Tom Graybill  38:03
When you pull the format, can you fill this out? For me? That's maybe where you cross the line?
 
Leighann Lovely  38:09
How much do you make a year? Would you like to make more? Do you need benefits? You know, I'm a serial. I'm a serial worker, a serial networker. I can't, I cannot turn it off. It's just who I am. And it drives my husband crazy. But yeah, I mean, it's just, I've been like that my whole life. But you also have to understand, I grew up with parents who, you know, had, I guess, customer appreciation parties. And I was networking at a very young age. I just didn't know it. So then when I started my first job, and they're like, you're gonna go to this networking meeting, and you're gonna get three sales. And you're going to, I thought, oh, okay, so that's networking. I was just being the good daughter helping host this party. And then when I realized, no, I, I'm not doing it right now. I was networking. I was going and talking to people and getting to know them. That was real networking. So now, I I want to make a point here, right now. This is really a volunteer thing that you are doing. And that's amazing. I wanted to point that out. Because in reality you should be. You should be having classes that you're you're being paid for this because this is something that should be a regular scheduled class that students are able to sign up for and having a true instructor that because out of all of the things right now, in the world that people need. This is one of the classes that should be mandatory. going into a professional going into any type of of, you know, industry or whatever it might be. It's something that's this is part of the package of training on soft skills. And we aren't training our youth, we aren't training our college students on soft skills. And this is one of those things that I truly believe needs to be addressed and trained on. So I just want to commend you that you're one of those, you know, there's a handful of people out there who are continuing to do their part and, and helping and I want to commend you on that.
 
Tom Graybill  40:36
So well, it's, it's incredibly rewarding for me, I used to tell the instructor at WCC who would give me two hours to go in and talk to the students that that was the best two hours of my year was going in and talking to these these kids and, and in two hours I can I would cover, I'd go beyond networking, I would talk interviewing, and I would talk a little bit of resume stuff as well. But it is incredibly rewarding. And I've had so many great experiences doing it, that, you know, that that's again, how I get paid, is through those great experiences. And I've actually had students come back and say, Oh, hey, I remember you, you came and spoke to my class about networking. It was really kind of cool, where one of the members of the Brookfield chamber came up to me and said, Oh, hey, you know, you spoke I remember you spoke, spoke to us, you know, taught us about networking. And this is a guy who owns his own company right now, and is very successful. And, you know, I, I can't necessarily take all the credit for it. But I'm happy that that hopefully, I gave him some skills to be able to be useful.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:50
You should bill him now. No, just don't think that he's gonna pay that bill, but probably no, no. So I'm just, you know, we're coming to time. And before we get too far down the rabbit hole here, I wanted to talk to you just a little bit about because we talked a little bit about your background and where you've been, but you now are with trademark, you refer to in many circles as the video guy. And the question of the season, which I don't think that you got a huge preview of that. I want to ask you that. But tell us a little bit just a brief what is what is trademark?
 
Tom Graybill  42:41
Sure. So Tremec is a video and event production company. And we work you know, with all manner of different types of clients from from entrepreneurs up to the fortune 50. And we work throughout the entire world, especially on our event side, we just did an event A week and a half ago in Malta, which is a small island in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, just south of Sicily. And so our teams right now are spread throughout the country, because it's meeting season, helping clients with conferences, sales meetings, user group meetings, annual meetings, whatever. So that's a that's a huge part of our business. And then, you know, on the on the video portion of our business, we do all manner of video from animation to live, you know, to interviews to going in and shooting in factories, we have a really awesome interactive display that just got put up into the war oil in Milwaukee to honor the 64 recipients of the Medal of Honor who who came from Wisconsin, so it's a giant video wall and a kiosk that you can, you know, see the stories of these, these gentlemen and what they did to earn this recognition. So it's, it's really a very awesome experience that I've been able to have. Every day is difference. We, you know, again, working with all manner of clients, large and small, and hopefully going to be helping a, a budding country music star with his first performance video to go and get him more gigs. That hopefully we'll be shooting in March and, and I get to do a lot of you know, it affords me the freedom to go and do the networking thing as well as do some other things to sponsor causes that are important to, to me. You know, I'm a member of the the USO Marketing Committee, and each year we get to produce some videos for their annual gala to honor the heroes of Wisconsin to the servicemen and women who serve in the different military branches and keep us safe. It's it's, it's a privilege to be able to help in that tiny little way to help these men and women.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:59
That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. So the question of the season may not apply, but what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role?
 
Tom Graybill  45:13
What would I change about my job? You know, again, having having been here as long as I have, obviously, I'm, I'm very lucky and very blessed with who I who I work with both my clients and my colleagues. So I'm not sure that there's, there'd be much I changed about my job other than I changed the perception that's out there, that, you know, I can get it done cheaper, that that price is the only consideration that matters when it comes to, you know, doing events or video production, that there isn't a difference between working with a professional versus going and shooting it on my iPhone. And, you know, getting it out there. I mean, it's great to me, that there's so many options for people to get video content out there, because video is one of the most effective marketing tools that you have. But it is something it's important that things be done. Right. Right. And and I'd say even on the event side, it's even more important because you only have one chance to do a live event, right? And if it isn't done correctly, right, you know, I will, I will say there was an event that you and I attended. And one of the things that that did troubled me about that event is that you have a stage and you have no lighting on that stage. And so for me sitting in the back, it was dark. And it was hard to see the speakers who were there, and it wouldn't have taken much to get a couple of lights up there. But it's something that people don't think about if they're not working with a professional who's in the business,
 
Leighann Lovely  46:46
Right, that make them look good, of course. Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, if somebody is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?
 
Tom Graybill  46:58
Well, probably the easiest way is is email. I'm still a little old school when it comes to making contact. But my email is a very easy email. Well, I think is an easy email to remember. But there is a little twist to it. So we are trademark with a Q. And the reason that we're trying to work with a Q is because originally we were going to be founded by three graduates of Marquette University. So try Mar Q makes sense. It was only two guys from our cat. But by Marq doesn't roll off the tongue like tri Marq does so. So we kept it with that. So yeah, anyone who would love to, you know, I'd love to interact with anyone who'd be interested in chatting about networking. Certainly, if I can help them on the video or event side, happy to do that. But my email address is Tom@trimarq, T R I M A R Q .com.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:46
Excellent. And I will put your contact information in the show notes. Tom, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I think it's just absolutely amazing that you, you know, donate your time to you know, work with our youth on such an important thing that, you know, I wish that I would have had somebody who taught me so thank you again for taking the time to talk with me today.
 
48:11
Thank you so much, Leighann. It's been my great pleasure.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:16
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact – Information
 
E-mail - tom@trimarq.com
 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tomgraybill
 
Website – www.trimarq.com
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, networking, talk, conversation, person, milwaukee, job, important, extrovert, networker, students, wisconsin, tom, dahmer, interview, taught, event, speak, professional, trademark
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Understanding Yourself and Your People to Create Positive, Healthy Environments

Tatyana St. Germain is a brilliant woman who focuses on providing guidance and coaching using development assessments, talent optimization tools and so much more. She is a straightforward, no-nonsense person and in today’s world we need more people helping companies and leaders have the hard conversations. Tatyana is amazing at her craft and this is a conversation that you won't want to miss.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
Today is going to be a great episode. I have an amazing guest joining me today. Tatyana St. Germain is the founder and CEO of Great People Management, a consulting firm that offers hiring and development assessments, talent optimization tools, and leadership and executive coaching. Tatianna believes that people are the foundation of every business, but the right people are the backbone of a successful business. She has helped over 1000 organizations across the US, Canada, Europe and Asia, develop their leaders and establish sustainable and cost effective systems to select, retain and develop the right people who get results and smash the competition. With over 20 years of business, corporate, and international experience. She is an expert in understanding and solving complex people challenges in the workplace, including selection, onboarding, turnover and retention, her integrity her unique perspective, valuable insight, keen observation, and a no nonsense approach attracts companies who demand results, who strive to always be better, make smarter decisions about their people and increase effectiveness of their managers and teams. Tatiana's background spans a variety of fields, linguistics, international relations, training, teaching, recruiting, business development, strategic planning, service excellence, and CEO roundtable facilitation. She is a vintage trust advisor and an avid networker when she is not connecting people or trends, forming organizations. She enjoys making wine, cooking, reading, camping, gardening, stargazing, traveling and RVing around the country with her family. Tatiana, thank you so much for joining me today.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  03:16
Thank you for having me on Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:19
So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  03:24
Alright, well, my name is Tatyana. I am an executive coach of 100 and CEO of great people management. I work with corporations to help them ensure that they have the right people in the right positions. So sort of in talent advisory role, as well as working with executives and leaders in management at the management level, and all the way to CEO, coaching them and providing leadership development and team development services as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:55
That's awesome. Now you, you specialize in actually using assessment tools to, you know, help with reviewing employees and doing a lot of your coaching or in I'm sorry, doing a lot of your work with these individuals and these companies, I should say, not individuals. Tell me a little bit about, you know, how you utilize these assessments and how that can be effective.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  04:23
Well, what's interesting, and you kind of mentioned this already, I work with both individuals and companies. Okay. So in what I'm finding in my consulting practice is what we're lacking is information. I know we're surrounded by information, but there's a lot of noise. And what we're not focusing is information about people, individual people, and it's a really powerful piece of data, very scientific piece of piece of data that psychometric assessments provide, and when you can measure somebody and know exactly what makes them tick, understand their story. some weaknesses, understand what motivates them understand their full potential, then as a hiring manager, as a leader, you can make a much better, more informed decision. What position to put this person in? Will they be a good fit for this role? Will they be a good fit for this team? How will I, as a leader, as a manager work with this individual? And so this information can be used both on the hiring side, on post hire promotional decisions, any human decision in the workplace, is it's extremely important to make it as precise as possible. So we're not It's not like a flip of the coin. Who do I hire today? Well, who do I promote today? Or how do I put a project team together? A lot of times, it's just intuition you're guessing. And some leaders are better at it than others. Most people, it's kind of by the seat of their pants, it's based on observed behavior. They're making some inferences, make some assumptions, and hope for the best, essentially. And it's, it becomes very frustrating when it starts to cut into the company bottom line, when you were lacking engagement, when productivity is not up to par, when you you wake up one day, and we realize your entire team is just a bunch of mediocre performers. What are you going to do about it? And or what's even more frustrating to COVID, we a lot of organizations experienced this, people just left. So turnover issues that cuts into the bottom line, it's extremely costly. In other words, not to have the right people in the right positions. And going back to your question, that's what employee assessments help us to really reduce costs, improve lives of humans in the workplace, because they are happy in their jobs. And when people are happy in their jobs, they make companies that make they do great stuff. And sometimes I just educate organizations and HR professionals, I do webinars and in person events, seminars, telling them about different assessment tools, because there's 1000s of them out there. And other times I actually get involved with my clients and help them implement assessment products for different initiatives.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:31
So in let me just swipe, so we get some clarification. So on these assessments, and let's, I guess, take one, for example. The DISC assessment, when you're grabbing this information, how do you turn that information into usable, understandable data that a hiring manager, for instance, can use to make an informed decision on whether or not this employee is going to or how to, you know, train this employee? Or how to, I guess, how do you turn that data into real, tangible information that can be or it maybe it's not a DISC assessment? Maybe I'm calling out the wrong one. But how do you how do you translate that so that it can actually be made? Because there's a ton of information on there a ton of you know, here's what they're strong at, here's what they're weak at, but how does it How does it then translate to be usable, functional, functional information that can then be valuable?
 
Tatyana St. Germain  08:47
Tunable insights, is what you're looking for. So that's part of the reason why I focus so much on assessments that produce those actionable insights that anyone in the company can pick up and make a better decision. So there's no guesswork, there's no interpretation, because whenever you involve humans in interpretation, you're introducing bias. And on the hiring side, it's well, it's a very litigious environment. So we don't want to introduce that personal bias, we want to remove personal bias from the hiring process. We can not remove it completely because at some point in the hiring process, you have a face to face interview with a bunch of folks potentially, so that that is still a human to human interaction. But when we are measuring people you have to as an organization, you have to ensure that you use tools, psychometric assessment tools that are specifically validated for pre employment, and just because not one of them. This is according to Department of Labor, and there's over 4000 disc type assessments on the market. So the good ones I'll take a will tell you it's in their technical manual implementation guides. The disc is not used for hiring, because it does not have the job matching capability. It measures their contents. But post employment, I use disk, it's very useful for team building, and for onboarding, and for in terms of actionable insights. So depending on what type of dispute use, I use a lot of quietly products and their disk actually produces actionable insights, or reports that again, managers can take and run with it. And include that as part of their onboarding process as part of their team building exercise, I still recommend a facilitator, such as myself, to do something like that. And I do a lot of team workshops. But again, this is kind of a fallback for my practice, I use normative assessment tools. I'm not sure if you want me to call them out or not.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:02
It's, I'm, you can call out whatever you want. I'm, an island over here.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  11:10
Okay. So I use again, it's a widely tool, PST select, assessment, and a couple of others to Lexis tool, and I recommend my clients, there's a few other tools that are a little more expensive and more cumbersome to use, not scalable, but they're also very effective, scientifically based assessments. They measure the total person. And you know, when I get this question quite a bit, so what's the difference between disk and px T? Other than those actionable insights, right, in the hiring, that post hire, what's the real difference? How differently does it measure an individual. And somebody recently, one of my colleagues said, Imagine the disk is like an x ray. And px T is like an MRI. So it goes deeper, broader, and measures the whole person. So that's the that's really the big difference.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:08
Now, before you go on, now, you mentioned a facilitator, because I'm assuming that this information is his own, only as good as the person who's getting the information, right. I mean, I can sit in and read all of this information. But if I don't know what to do with that, it means nothing.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  12:28
Yeah, that's, why I do record when, when budgets are concerned, right, for a lot of people, for a lot of organizations. So it's, it's almost humorous, sometimes when budget is allocated to quote unquote, employee development, or team development. And that budget is only big enough to buy assessments. It's not big enough to hire facilitator, or it's not big enough to take the next step and hire a coach. If there's a need for leadership coaching, or executive coaching. It's kind of like, well, why did we even start down this path? Yes, I absolutely recommend when we're in a situation of team development, leadership, development, et cetera. You cannot leave people to their own devices. It's great information, all assessments I use of those great reports, insightful reports for self awareness for coaching, even self coaching, and how to work better together with other people, how to work better with the whole team, how are we different? How are we similar? But it it's much more fun. When you attended the workshop that I I facilitate, because I add some of that color commentary, I share real life experiences. And then it's an opportunity to, for for the attendees to ask questions, very specific questions, or raise their hand and say, Oh, yes, that's why you're this way. Remember, when we were working on this and that, and you did this? Yes, that makes sense now. So they are learning about each other. It's, that's why it's truly a workshop. And they walk away with more tangible, very applicable personal information that they can then apply in their day to day work interactions with others, but on the hiring side, because it's usually higher volume, and I work with midsize to large organizations. The idea is to empower hiring managers with information from from these job matching reports. And it does not require interpretation because it gives them interview questions. So they don't need to do really anything else. I mean, they can call me for a debrief. I'm always He's available. I couldn't get through quarterly trainings with all of my clients, a lot of refreshers, touch points, I want everyone to be on the same page. But that that part of utilizing assessments for hiring purposes, generates Behavioral Interview Guide, that they can ask those questions and make a better decision.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:24
So something that you said, like really hit me here, you said, you know, after you, you know, work with people, and people walk away going, Oh, wow, that's why you handled something this way. Or that's why you are, you know, this, this way, or whatever. And so I recently took, oh, my gosh, and I'm going to embarrassed, embarrassed myself and not remember what the assessment was. But it's it definitely explained why certain individuals on my previous team were the way that they were. And in doing that, do you find that team members start to become a little bit less stressed, in interaction, and even with each other, not just managers, but team members and having a better understanding of the way that their teammate processes information. And communication opens up a little bit better and people? I mean, I have to imagine that just understanding the way that XYZ coworker handles things, and understanding that can open up huge doors.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  16:42
Well, that's what I love about my job. Every person is unique. We're all born unique and different. And when we look at another unique person, a coworker, or team member, we see differences, we perceive differences, but we see them as difficulties. Because what happens is our fear centers in the brain, the reptilian brain takes over, the amygdala kicks in. And we start to fear the unknown. Because if it's something different, it's a mystery. It's unknown. And we take that personally. And when people act on their differences, that's when conflict, potentially, or we can misinterpret make assumptions. And it can cause conflict, I do get involved with conflict resolution situations as well. And usually boils down to communication. And communication, if we break it down to how it starts, usually is because of those differences. Because of assumptions, I'll give you like a quick example. You can take a person who is extremely skeptical, and then you take a person who's extremely positive and optimistic. And when they come together for meetings, or one on ones or whatever, whatever. Let's say they're working side by side on the project, they're more more skeptical individual is going to ask a lot of questions. Because they don't trust themselves. They have high standards for themselves and others. And they're very vigilant. This is what drives them. And they can come across as negative. And and everybody else on the team, and especially this extremely positive person might might say, Well, gosh, there's so negative, it's really toxic toward me, we start to put labels on this, like, what's what's going on within your life? What's wrong with you, okay, there's something wrong with you. Or they can take a different tack and say, well, they're doing it to me. They're doing it to me. And so that becomes stressful for the positive person. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a skeptical person could look at a positive individual, a trusting individual and say, well, that's their stupid. How can you not ask this question? That's just dumb. So there may be lack of respect. And it all stems from lack of understanding of where we each come from. But once you explain that, this is just somebody's hardwiring, this is their DNA. This person is wired to be optimistic and charismatic. And you know what's great about it? Yes, they can miss some opportunities. But you know what's great about it, they believe in you more than you believe in yourself. And don't you want to surround yourself with people like that? Wow, totally different perspective.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:37
You sound like, this is terrible. what I'm about to say this You sound like a marriage counselor. You sound like my marriage. But it's totally and completely true. You especially when you become really comfortable. For instance, you've been at the same company for a really long time. You know, your coworker you think you know, your coworker or you know, a friend or you, because this happens in human? You know, I've gone back to the marriage because I've been with the same man now for, you know, 10 plus years, right? I assume that I know what he's thinking, that immediately creates conflict. Because the assumption that I know what he's thinking, when he says something to me, is wrong. It's automatically wrong. Because that leads to if he doesn't mean that, and I act on that, then he looks at me and goes, What are you doing? And then I get defensive, right? That is the exact same thing with any other relationship, if you jump to a wall, and that's why I assume, you know, makes an asset to you and me, right? Because, and that. So, so this, you know, in any, in any working situation, if you if you get comfortable, and you start to assume that you know, what people are thinking, or you assume that somebody should act, the way that you act, because that's the only thing that you know, and a lot of people think that that until I really started to get more emotional intelligence and read all of those books and start to, you know, have a better understanding that not everybody thinks the way that I think kind of went Oh, right, because everybody's different. Everybody thinks uniquely, everybody processes information differently, just because I heard it, you know, the same person say something and I processed it in a positive way. Doesn't mean that the other person processed it in a positive could have been like you just said, a skeptical way. So it's, it's, I mean, I can imagine how valuable it is to become aware that you know, of how your coworkers process and understand information. Because on a daily basis, people get ticked off people even driving, somebody cuts you off, you assume that they knew that you were there, right? You assume that they did it on purpose. Nine times out of 10, it was an accident. They didn't mean to do it, because nobody goes out on the road maliciously trying to say, I'm going to piss everybody off on the road today.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  22:32
Yeah, and assumptions. lead to the wrong conclusions. Typically, like you said, and usually we don't assume to the positive, we always assume for the negative, especially with respect to us, okay, somebody's out to get us. Somebody's trying to do something to me. And Steven Covey's Seven Habits mentioned this, I think it was in the sixth habit. I can't recall right now which one it is, but his story about being on the subway train late at night, he assumed that these kids were running around because the Father and the Father was just too bad parent wasn't controlling. But it turned out that they were coming home from the hospital. And the father didn't know how to handle it, because they just lost their mother. Right? You, it takes practice. And the first thing I recommend when I do coaching, my coaching practice, I recommend that leaders or anybody really who I work with, they need to start to observe themselves and catch yourself. That's the first step. Don't try to fix everything. Don't try to stir the ocean. Let's just be more mindful and observant of your own assumptions, and how you react to different stimuli. And then pause, and then ask yourself, is this an assumption? And if it's an if it's an assumption, you say, yes, it's an assumption, I really don't have all the information, you have two options. You either drop it and take things at face value. Or if you really need to know what's going on, what's the intent behind whatever the person did or said, ask them. They'll be passive aggressive, just ask them. You did this, but I don't understand what's behind it. Could you tell me more? being observant of yourself is really a powerful experience. And it took me a long time to get to that point. But I recently experienced this that when you're in that mode, where you observe yourself and you pause and give yourself space and time to catch the assumptions. It makes you less pissed off. When people something that would normally take you off. For example, we were coming home or four of us with the kids. We landed midway, we came home from Florida. It was kind of slow Meeting raining, cold, snowing, whatever it was, it was nasty outside. And the bus driver who took us to the to the parking lot refused to stop at where we parked. She said she's going to the deck to the parking deck. And it was it was literally for her. It was not a big thing. But she refused to stop and refuse even though she was going back by back there. She was not going to take us. She wanted us off the bus. She started screaming, get off the bus. And you know, I've never seen my kids were angry. My, my husband was angry. And he's usually pretty, you know, pretty chill. And all I could think of, yes, it's frustrating. But I thought, what if she lost a family member? What if her son was shot? What if like, we don't know what's going on, and she literally lost, she lost it in that moment. And she was not going to give us any customer service. And yes, we could have taken the number of the bus and her whatever. And, but I felt that piece. Well, my entire family. It was just we were walking her to walk through the snow, sleet to the car. I observed the three of them feel me. And then halfway home, they were fuming about this. But I felt like it really. We were all healthy. We're all together. And we don't know what caused her to lash out like that. Could she just be a major? Bad person? Yes, yes, absolutely. But it has nothing to do with me. And I choose not to take it personally. And I it was such a revelation, I was just at peace. And if we could do this at work, can you imagine what we could accomplish? Then you're productive, because when emotions start to take over, the rational brain shuts down, right? You literally don't hear it's been proven by studies that you can put somebody could be telling you something, and you think you hear you, you cannot repeat what was said, right? Because the heat is rising, and you don't. So emotions, feelings, all of that I deal with with this in my coaching practice, of course. But it all starts with self awareness. And self awareness cannot happen without either decades of self learning and self reflection. Or we can skip decades and squeeze it down to an hour and you take PST select and learn everything you need to know.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:51
You know, and it's and it's so interesting that because it's really interesting when you said that when emotions take over that you don't hear anything? And how often do we find ourselves in situations with our children, for instance, you talk about your family. And first of all, you know, that's an amazing, it's amazing that you, you know, to be able to be in that situation and to be able to allow your rational brain to stay in charge. Because it's it's not easy, especially when you have your family there. And trust me I struggle with that when it's when it comes to my family. You know, it's very hard to keep those emotional, you know, checks and balances. Because you feel that Mama Bear COME OUT, right? You feel that protective. It's sometimes a little bit easier when it's, you know, in a business situation where you're like, Okay, you're not, but family. So I applaud you for for staying level headed. But yeah, you know, I always say to my husband, like you're getting me to the point where I'm going to see red, I'm going to shut down, I'm going to, you know, like don't push me or not even my husband, it's usually my daughter. You know, she's at that age, she she actually turned five yesterday. But she's at that age where she pushes and pushes and pushes and pushes and I'm staying calm, and I'm staying calm, and I'm staying calm. And all of the sudden it's that snap where you're just like, oh my god, like get get away from me, you know, and then I have a puppy who's also and you stop, you stop the logical thinking and the emotion completely takes over. And we'd like to think that that doesn't happen at work. You're level headed, you're logical, but you can't you can't separate we we've, we've learned I've had this conversation now multiple times. We've learned that we are not robots. We don't walk into work and drop baggage. We don't walk into work and flip a switch and now we're either now we're the professional person. We are ourselves our whole person. No matter where we are, and yeah, for years and years and years, we've seen people pretend that they could go to work and become this professional human being and nothing bleeds over. And we've seen a society of people who've just burnt themselves out trying to do that, right. So the only alternative is to try to understand other human beings and be there for each other. So these assessments are awesome in trying to, to get there. What happens however, when you have, then this is probably a more difficult, but what happens when you have a manager? Who's I guess, more blind to this information? Do you deal? Yeah, believing? Don't believe in it? Or I mean, do you deal with organizations when it comes to coaching through that?
 
Tatyana St. Germain  31:09
This is actually a one of the most popular questions in my coaching conversations. What do you do when a leader who needs development doesn't think they need development? So they look in the mirror, and they see perfection, right. And the reality is, it's a rotten apple. That's what everybody else sees. This, this is why we have 360 degree evaluation tools. This is a wake up call for those leaders, as long as this leader is not the one who's holding the purse strings and approving contracts and budgets, right. Because then they think that they don't need development, nobody else needs development, and they're not going to participate, and they're not going to approve, then they're not a client, they're not going to be a client, right. But if we get a chance to work with them, and they do participate, this usually comes out of left field for for them because they're not self aware. But this is the feedback. That's truly a gift, because they need to understand that this is what's really going on, here's the reality. And yes, 360 tools are based on perception, because they tell us, we ask direct reports, we asked peers, clients, bosses, everybody around this leader, including the leader themselves, how they perform on different leadership competencies. And so they get feedback, they get scores, they also get comments, and then we build a development plan for them. And every leader has room for improvement, and for development. So this type of feedback can be difficult, especially for those who never took the time to be self reflective, or self critical, or be aware of how they might show up at work. They may have great skills, but they don't have the people skills, or they don't have the the soft skills, they don't have leadership skills to accomplish what they need to accomplish. Maybe they're a great technical person, but they they're not a great communicator. And so it comes out. And typically when a when we have a leader like that, who's not self aware, they get, let's say, kind of mediocre or bad feedback. Sometimes this feedback can be harsh, because comments are open, and they are anonymous. But they can get pretty nasty. And it's amazing what people do. Just think of what people do on social media, when they're when they're protected by anonymity. So some of that culturally, we It seems like unfortunately, it it spills into the professional world. And I see more and more a 360 feedback with those anonymous comments be quite personal and nasty and not professional. But this is the type of stuff this leader is evoking and other people that kind of feelings they're bringing up and other people and it's not productive, and they need to know that. So all feedback is a gift. And that's how I start the conversation. The next option is for this leader to say, well, people are just stupid. I worked with a German engineer. And this is I know, stereotypical, but he was truly he traveled from Germany, from their office in Germany to me to rural Tennessee to manage a team of engineers. So if they're all engineers, but he's from Germany, and he's having an issue with culture, language, everything else potentially. And when he gets gets this feedback, and it's not, not good, lots of room for improvement, some good things, but a lot of he focused on the paper Of course, and he's in, we start to work through it. And he goes, well, people are just stupid. And I don't disagree because i want i Feelings are messages from our brain, feelings and emotions, and you cannot ignore them. If you put them in a little box in the closet, you know how people say we're compartmentalize, it's the worst thing you can do, because at some point, that's going to be a big explosion. And it's going to not just be an exploding closet, the whole house is gonna go down. So you need to acknowledge these emotions and feelings. And so I don't start to fight with somebody when they say, Well, this is this. Yeah, sure. Okay, let's assume you are correct. And people are stupid. And I've been in those shoes growing up, I thought everybody was stupid. Honestly. So and it was extremely irritating to me. And, frankly, because I'm like, I can't have friends, I cannot have an intelligent conversation with anybody. And at that time, I was five. So it was really difficult for me. And I worked through so I knew exactly what he was coming from. They said, You know what? I'm with you, buddy. Let's, let's assume they're stupid. What's next? What are you going to do with this information? We try different ways. And he's still good. It's he was very dismissive of this feedback. And then finally would make the difference. Because I asked him a question that he could not kind of could not not connect with. I said, Do you want to be effective in this role? Because I said, sounds like you. You don't need to be in this position. People are stupid, you hate this. So we're at an impasse, right? What? Of course, coached plenty of people out of their jobs. And he goes, Well, no, why not? Do you want to be affected? Well, of course. So that was his motivator. And then he got over the hump. He's like, Okay, let's take things at face value. It is what it is, what you got, this is what is, so let's deal with it. Not because you need to be everything to everyone, not because you need to compromise your values, not because you need to change who you are, you need to just change what you do to be more effective to achieve what you want from life and business. And that's what typically resonates with most people. They don't want to take assessments or go through coaching programs, because it's an IT they feel it's going to be an attack on who they are. And my approach, and the tools I choose to use in my practice are different, they measure the uniqueness of who you are. So that together, we can craft your unique path to what you want. And you're going to do it the way you need to you need you will, you don't change, I don't believe people change. There are certain things that are wired in our DNA. It's the hard wiring in the brain. And it's it's set, it's pretty much set, it's not. You can learn new things, you can acquire new skills, you can learn strategies, almost despite yourself, but at your core. And I'm going to change what that DNA is your core is your starting point. And it's important to know because you cannot get go from A to point B without knowing point A. And so that's these assessments, all types of evacuations, they really help us get grounded in not only who we are, but what's our departure point. And then from there, we can say, okay, based on what I'm comfortable with, this is how and what I can do. And then it becomes authentic. And if you're doing something to improve yourself, that's authentic to yourself, you're honoring yourself, well, then you're gonna continue doing it. That's a more sustainable path to improvement, versus trying to do something that's hard because you read a book, right? Well, they did. So I'm gonna do it. Don't ever compare yourself to other people, because you're always comparing your worst self to their best self. And that's unfair. To extremely unfair to so well, I'll get off my soapbox, if you have another question.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:20
No, I just I was very intrigued. Kind of you sucked me in on that. On that example? I mean, and I find I find it very amazing that there are some humans out there that are willing to take the information, you know, consume that, and then, you know, by the end of it, you're able to get them to understand that this is not an attack on them. That it truly, you know, and yeah, you know, that some people can be mean, and, you know, counterproductive by some of the things that I'm sure that they say on this evaluation when they're when they're giving feedback. And it's unfortunate that you know, but again, they the people giving the feedback are also human right. And this is also a way for them to finally say something that they need to say. And they need to get off their chest, but the people who are getting that feedback, if they're able to finally consume that, and then move forward from that, and thrive and do well, and change that behavior to to thrive in their position. I mean, that that's, that's amazing, though, I mean, and what a what a role for, for you to be in to watch that person, you know, bloom and thrive and, and do well, you know, in that role, and if they can't, hey, there's, there's a million other positions out there, where maybe, you know, being a people leader is not, is not the right role for them. But, you know, to have that insight, I mean, I, I wish that I could have the insight from every single person that I that I meet, to be able to understand myself better. I mean, because I would prefer, if I'm doing a horrible job somewhere, that that my manager were to sit me down and say, Okay, here's what I need for you to change. And here's my constructive criticism to you, not because I want to be malicious, but because I want you to be a better human going forward. But that is a really hard conversation for leaders to have. And that's what struck, that's the thing that's I struggle with the greatest is that. Why is it so difficult to have that conversation as a leader, and if you can't have those conversations, you shouldn't be a people leader. I mean, there should
 
Tatyana St. Germain  41:54
Conflict avoidance, and this is one of the traits actually that we've we measure a lot of people, they will actually there could be two possibilities. Everybody has their own story in their own reasons. Again, we don't want to assume, but what I typically observe is it could be that it's innate to them, it's in their DNA. And we can measure this with PX T. And they're highly accommodating, so they don't like conflict. And so they will find every possible which way to avoid confronting somebody a hold accountable, because they think it's going to cause conflict. They don't know what but they think, and another thing is just pure laziness. They just maybe they're disengaged, they're not in this role, long term, they're not fully bought it bought in mind, they don't really want to have this conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:46
And that's sad, because if you if you're going to truly be, you know, a person, a people leader, a servant leader, along with that comes having to have the hard conversations, right? I mean, you're gonna have to have your, eventually you're gonna have to fire people, eventually, you're, you're good, you have to hire people, you're gonna have to sit down, and you're gonna, if you want to truly help people, you know, grow and develop, you're gonna have to have hard conversations. You know, today, your work was mediocre. Here's how you can be better. You know, today, this happened. I have always throughout my career, I appreciated the leaders who sat me down. And when you can't do that, I remember, years and years ago, I dropped an F bomb in front of this was many, many years ago, but I dropped an F bomb in front of a wildly religious coworker. And immediately my manager came to me sat me down and goes, you can't say that at work. And I was like, Oh, my God, did I did I say that? He's like, Yeah, and you need to go immediately and apologize. And make sure that you just watch your language in the future. And I mean, and I was embarrassed, like, I was so embarrassed. But he didn't like push it off. He didn't, he was straightforward. You can't see this word at work. I mean, this again, words now have become so much more. You got to you know, you go to a event, and people are saying every which it's the words are so colorful now. But anyway, I was like, wildly embarrassed. I was just like, I can't believe I did that, you know. And I went over to the coworker, and I said, you know, I really apologize. I did not mean to swear, and I know that you're, you're very, you're very religious. And that was my fault. And but I appreciated that. It didn't take a day. It didn't take a week. It didn't take a month for my manager to come to me. It literally took like 10 minutes from me doing that to my manager coming to me and saying, Yeah, don't do that again. Oh, right. Yeah, I won't do that again. He was one of
 
Tatyana St. Germain  44:59
Just-in-time feedback is something that's become very popular. A lot of leadership training programs talk about this, I talk about it whenever I get a chance. With a new generation in the workplace, you know, younger millennials and generations here, especially, if you wait until the next review cycle, they're not even going to be with your organization anymore. I mean, they leave at the drop of a hat, right? So then you need to provide just in time feedback. And based on my, my work, and my experience with measuring people in that particular trait, managerial courage, only 16% of the population is wired to speak the truth to have this kind of courage, despite the potential for conflict or defensiveness, or any kind of pushback, the rest of the population, and the general population that's not just leaders are kind of more flexible with that they're less inclined, if you will, to handle situations just in time. And of course, it does escalate. So there are strategies even for conflict averse leaders that they can implement to provide just in time feedback. And it starts with setting clear expectations on the front end. So if you know that you're not going to tolerate and you don't want to perpetuate a workplace where certain language is tolerated, we'll go ahead and talk about this expectation on the front end, right, right. So then it won't feel like conflict or some or you coming down on somebody or out of left field, when you have to hold people accountable to that standard. you've communicated that to them, right. And it's a little more palatable for leaders who are less inclined to kind of get get you straight between the, between the eyebrows and shoot you straight and some points, to be honest, some of them can be like a bull in the china shop, they don't pull back at all. And they take it to the extreme right. And they're always picking on people. So there's always extreme sides to every every trait.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:11
Yeah. Yeah. And again, approach I mean, it's not like this manager came to me and was like, it didn't yell at me, just pulled me aside was like, hey, you know, yeah, FYI. Okay, don't do this. Oh, right. Of course. Yeah. You know, and again, a great leader, somebody who was, you know, in the trenches. Not only was he a great leader, he was the owner of the company. And, and I felt comfortable enough that when he came to me, I didn't feel picked on I didn't feel like he was, you know, calling me out came to the company, you know, came to me and said, Hey, I don't tolerate this. Great. My apologies. Won't happen again. You know, I mean, there's, and there's different approach. And you're right, there are certain leaders that, you know, every time there approaches can be a little intimidating. But, you know, well, we are, we are coming to time, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I could go on, and go down so many different paths with you on this, but to get into the retention piece and get into so many other things. But I want to ask you the question of the season. So the question of the season, if, or, actually, what would you change about your job, or the practice that people have in your job if you could, or in your role?
 
Tatyana St. Germain  48:42
What I would love to change about my job is has less to do with me more with everyone that I work with, and it's a cop out. But here's what I mean, I, I'm glad to see that due to COVID more organizations are focusing on people. I would like to see more investments, time, and money needs to be invested by individual people, by parents in their high school kids, and by organizations in people. We have to know each other better, we're so disconnected. There's so much noise, so much information, we need to understand ourselves, we need to be more self aware of who's aware of others, and we need to have real conversations, real human conversations. And so whatever with that respect, what I would change for myself, is spreading this message more forcefully. In fact, I changed I put this song in my on my website at the very top. Imagine a world where people love to come to work. So if you asked me 10 years ago, I would have said that's super cheesy. And now I challenge people close your eyes and get beyond the cheesy. And imagine the world where people, every single person loved what they do. Can you imagine the impact on society, economy, productivity, overall happiness, stress relationships at work outside of work, everything, we spend majority of our lives at work, waking hours at work. And if you don't love what you do, it's corrosive, toxic, and it's not serving you because you lash out at people you love at the end of the day. Yep. So if I can contribute in a small way to that world, and I can partner with organizations, and provide them with these tools, so that those organizations can help contribute to building that world, and put the right people in the right positions, have real conversations with them, develop them, help them, help them be fulfilled. That's, that's really my passion. And I think that this was a really a turning point. And that's what I'm changing and continued to change will started last year and into this year, I'm going to be a little more more proactive in spreading that message.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:17
And that's awesome. And that's what this podcast, you know, the reason I started this podcast in the first place was because we're human, and if we connect as humans, maybe that is, you know, a push towards, you know, having conversations that will create us to connect even more, my fear is that the more advanced technology becomes, the less we connect as humans, and people keep saying, but the technology is how we're staying connected. But I see people taking a walk, staring at their phone. Whereas when I grew up as a child, we would be on a walk all, you know, talking and hanging out. And you know, this reminds me of that, that movie, were all the boys, you know, what was that movie? The it doesn't matter. You know, we rode our bikes everywhere. We never, you know, it was constant interaction communication. It was never phone and playing Pokemon staring at us. And yes, technology is connecting us in a remote world of where we were banned from leaving our homes, but it's continuing. We can now be in public, and yet, we're still meeting on Zoom. So I fear that we are going to have to intentionally, very intentionally have to make sure that we stay connected as humans because there is a difference between talking on the Zoom like we are today than sitting next to each other in a coffee shop and having a real human conversation. So I you know, I throw that out there because I want people to remember that true connection. You know, being in person has a different feeling. Anyways, if somebody is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?
 
Tatyana St. Germain  53:30
A couple of ways. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So look me up Tatyana, St. Germain. I think I'm the only Tatiana St Germain and LinkedIn. But I may be wrong, but I think I am. And you can also go to my website and find a bunch of connection links there. To my LinkedIn to my YouTube channel and the email. Great people management.com Is the website luring people management.com or email, you can send an email either to Tatiana at correct people when.com Because great people do win. or discover how at great people when.com
 
Leighann Lovely  54:15
Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes. Again, thank you so much, Tatiana, for the amazing conversation. You have a wonderful day.
 
Tatyana St. Germain  54:23
Thank you so much. Leighann
 
Leighann Lovely  54:25
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Information
 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tatyanastgermain
 
Website - greatpeoplemanagement.com
 
E-mail - tatyana@greatpeoplewin.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, leader, assessments, person, conversations, organizations, question, feedback, assumptions, conflict, information, measure, human, tools, coworker, development, coaching, manager, tatiana, hiring

Recruiting Post Pandemic, Not Getting Any Easier

This is an eye-opening conversation with Robbie Reck a seasoned recruiter and owner of a boutique executive recruiting firm. Things in the world of staffing are constantly changing but it never makes the job easier, conversation with hiring managers and businesses continue to get more complex as does navigating the ever-changing wage battles and so much more. Join us for another great episode!
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely, let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
I have a great guest joining me today, Robbie Reck. He is the founder of Kilbourn Marshall, a boutique executive recruiting firm right here in the Milwaukee market. His firm specializes in finance, sales and C-level searches nationwide, especially confidential ones, his primary client base is privately held, or private equity owned companies with either headquarters or a location here in the Wisconsin market. I'm really excited to talk with him today. You know, there's no one that knows the pains, that employers are feeling better than, you know, people who are in the thick of it. And I'm really excited to hear from him.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:54
Robbie, thank you so much for joining me today.
 
Robbie Reck  01:57
Thank you for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:59
Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Robbie Reck  02:03
Alright, so since the audience is business owners and HR professionals will skip to the part where I got into recruiting. So that would be January of 2011. So I am just about to hit 12 full years in recruiting. My degree was in finance. So automatic isn't. So I'm proud badger. But I only spent about a little less than four years doing finance itself. I was in a rotational program at Brady. So I did, I supported a sales and marketing team from finance standpoint, a distribution team tax, which was out of my ballpark. And then internal audit. So I finished the rotational program early that I supported an r&d team directly, or oversaw about $40 million in spend across the world, so that was that was the US, Europe and Asia. And then I also indirectly supported our mergers and acquisitions. I made it through the recession in 2008, without getting laid off. But really quickly saw how brutal It was to be on the other side of the desk. And, you know, the folks that were above the line or below the line on those layoffs, I mean, that that's those are bumbled decisions. And from one day to the next, those decisions change, depending on how we're looking at numbers. So I knew that I never wanted to be in that situation that I saw so many folks in and I've published articles on you know, about this, and how that really shaped how I got to, you know, be in the position I'm in today. But ended up I tried to start a company back in 2010. That failed miserably. I thought it'd be easy to run a landscaping business in when people did not have disposable income. That was a terrible decision. Learn from that. But I essentially had to tuck my tail between my legs, coming back to corporate America, where when you leave to start your own company, I really did feel like I was blacklisted. You know, I think everyone wants that entrepreneurial spirit. But when you actually are willing to leave and you show that there's so much fear in in hiring you back into a finance function. So I went to an executive recruiter sat down with them was looking for a finance job at the time. Like I said, tail tucked in between my legs, super modest, super humble at the time, and ended up being asked if I wanted to actually help people within finance and accounting find their next jobs and I had done sales as an internship and I was very successful at it. Top 15 in the country when I was in college for a really well known sales, internship, great training, you know, phenomenal training. But that was door to door business to business sales. That was That was brutal. But that's so I got into recruiting in January of 2011. When, at the time, we were still like a skeleton crew, there was not a lot of hiring, happening yet in 2011. And, you know, I was I was able to kind of ride that wave of the candidate market getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And honestly, it did that until the pandemic hit. Yep. That then 10 million people got laid off. And I had people crying on the phone, just saying, How do I get through this? You know, how do I keep my job safe? I think we all you know, instinctively know instinctively know what, what to do to keep our job safe, to the extent that we can. But then once we and I don't know if I would say we recovered from the pandemic, but I mean, that pendulum swung back incredibly hard to the candidate side. And there's so much leverage on the candidate side. Now, it just went back to what it was pre pandemic, and it's only continuing to get tighter. So, you know, I've just seen this, you know, continual contraction of the candidate market. And I'm based here, I'm based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So most of my clients are here.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:33
So something that you said, first, you know, a recruiter, not 12 years in the industry. It's Bobby. Yeah, yeah. So most recruiters, you know, that know, you would say, your your life or you're never gonna get out. And even if you try, even if you try to get out, you will, you will somehow be sucked back in. And it's just, it's just the nature of the industry. Once you get sucked in, and you become successful at it. There's no turning back. There's no way to get out. I've tried to leave. I can't. Yeah, I always somehow end up back in where I started, and I started. Well, I would date myself, you know, I've gotten almost 20 year I started almost 20 years ago. So
 
Robbie Reck  07:16
So is it because it's lucrative? Is that why people say that?
 
Leighann Lovely  07:19
I don't know. No, because when I started, it was not necessarily lucrative. I mean, if you think what, almost 18 years ago, I walked into a manpower with the same thought of can you help me find a job? And they said,
 
Robbie Reck  07:34
So you had, you had a similar like, start to how you got into recruiting how you volunteer? I was yes,
 
Leighann Lovely  07:39
I was actually going to school at that time for computer programming. And I walked in and they said, Well, why don't you come and work for us while you go to school? And I thought, okay, but this was, this was a light industrial manpower. Okay, so this was not a professional manpower. This was a out in middle of nowhere. You in a little tiny town. Well, you would know what it is. And, you know, most of my listeners are gonna die. Um, no, it was in Watertown. You know, Wisconsin, and, you know, not like it's by the big city or anything. It's right smack dab in between Milwaukee and Madison. So it's pretty much know, where, and they should
 
Robbie Reck  08:20
So hard to recruit they're,
 
Leighann Lovely  08:21
oh my God, it was horrible.
 
Robbie Reck  08:23
Because it's a it's in between two candidate pools. And no one was neither candidate pool wants to drive the 45 minutes to get there. Yeah, right. Like, there's that and then same thing in between Milwaukee, Chicago, pleasant prairie is incredibly tough to recruit for, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  08:37
So they come work for us and and I got my first taste of who I get to help these people. These people come in, desperate to find a job and I get to help them I get to, and then they get, they come back. And they're like, so grateful. And so it's in the beginning, it wasn't about it wasn't about the money, because what I think I was making, like, at that time, I mean, it was like $12 an hour, which was no, remember, this was 18 years ago. And I thought, Wow, I'm doing a pretty good job. You know, I'm making some decent, you know, I can pay, you know, my, my rent was 435 a month. I mean, like, Danny myself, yeah,
 
Robbie Reck  09:23
I remember having I remember having a one bedroom that was $500 a month and then when I started this business, I had to go so in 2018, I went from a one bedroom apartment down to a studio to make sure that I would have enough money so that I could actually stay you know, in a position where I didn't have to go back and work for someone again, because I just had no idea. Would my clients follow me after a one year non compete? But ya know, that's, oh, man. I lived on Prospect. Prospect Avenue for years in the like, $500 a month. You know, one bedroom Was that now there? I think they're right. You can't touch that.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:04
Right? No, you can't. Even my little tiny I mean, this apartment was was itty bitty. I mean, it was. But so no. But now it's now you get into recruiting. And I mean, you're talking about some of the salaries just for a professional recruiter. I mean, it's insane. So it is because everybody knows and understands the struggles now, they're starting to get some of those struggles to find hire. Because it's, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a time where, you know, you could apply online for a position and there was only five, maybe four people who applied. Now, there are hundreds of people applying to these positions electronically, that aren't qualified. And it takes, yeah, it takes that employer, they don't even have time to go through it. So instead of paying in stead of paying the cost of having that they just go to a recruiter and say, just do it for me, hand me somebody who meets the qualifications. Interview them. And you know, but there's also problems with that, that I'm sure we'll get into here in a second. But before we do, so you started with a company recruiting. And now, fast forward and how long has it been that you've been out on your own with Kilbourne martial.
 
Robbie Reck  11:45
So I started Kilbourn Marshall in October of 2018. So, we've, we've passed the four year mark. And we're working on our fifth year, but you know, it was 2019 was a noncompete. Year, so didn't do didn't do much business 2019 2020 ended up being a banner year 2021 was a little bit slower, but then 2022, blue 2020 out of the water. So it's one of those things where, like, you just don't know what the market is going to hold. Because I like going into the pandemic I had closed, I think I closed a deal in January a deal in February, and I had like, 50 grand in Billings, through two months. I was like, Alright, this is it's a decent start. You know, I'm on track for you know, what, 300 that year? And I was like, Okay, I'm, I'm happy with where I'm at. And then the pandemic hit, essentially, like, well, I'm talking, like, I called my clients on St. Patrick's Day, and said, Hey, are we still good? Every single client said, Yes, we're good. This is not going to impact anything. And within a week, I had no more searches, I was worried they just the faucet turned off in a week. And luckily, it turned back on six weeks later, for me, at least for what I do. But But I had to pivot. So we talked about how my degree was in finance from 2011 to 2018. I did nothing other than finance and accounting searches in the Wisconsin market. So that was that was the only those are the only searches that I could do. I had done some sales searches, but it was really like internal. So I had I had placed a rookie of the year for us when I was at one company, and then I placed another guy who is now if he's not the top sales recruiter, at my last firm in the country, he's top three. And he's bringing in over a million dollars a year. And he had never, you know, these folks hadn't recruited in the past. But I never wanted to put my name on folks in sales, because I was so worried because I knew from my finance background, that 40% of salespeople get fired every year. And as a as an executive recruiter. So the way that I do business, I want 95 to 100% of my placements to be there five years. Right. So I'm not looking for, you know, 90 days, you know, getting through the guarantee period. I want candidates and clients going into every relationship, eyes wide open, knowing good, bad and ugly about each other. Right. And if one of them walked, if either party wants to walk away, I just want to walk away. And I like I'm very, very clear with candidates and say, Hey, like if this is not the right fit for you. My job is then to go find someone else that feels like it's the right fit. So I tell candidates, I'm not going to sell you sell the company to you, and I'm not going to sell the candidate to the company either. I'd like my job, in my opinion, is to make introductions, and if there's not a good fit there, I need to go out and find more introductions to me. ache, I don't want to. I don't want to force anything, because that's when you start getting folks that don't make it to their five year anniversary.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:11
Well, and that's the recruiter, that's the kind of firm that you want to work with. But it's got to be, you've got to find the right marriage on both ends, right? You've got to you got to make sure that one you're working with a company that gives a shit about the, by the people that they're hiring, otherwise, they're just going to continue to spit out employees, because employees are going to start there.
 
Robbie Reck  15:32
Yeah, And we're super low volume. So as a boutique firm, or I'm not doing I won't take on more than 10 searches at a time. So we, we will never be spread too thin. You know, I've been on teams where we've had so many job orders, and I've talked to recruiting leaders at not even competitive firms, but other you know, outside recruiting firms. I've got, I've got a buddy that had 15 recruiters made 1000 job orders. You just there was there's no way to be able, you know, those 15 recruiters to be assigned to? I don't, I think that comes out to you know, 60, 70 some, oh, I've ordered, you can't
 
Leighann Lovely  16:16
During my my heyday and you know when I was doing at one time I was with, and it's not it doesn't even exist anymore. I was with HR first it was a division of Kelly Services that I carried the highest rec load of I think I anywhere from 65, up to up to 75 racks at any given time. Yeah. And that
 
Robbie Reck  16:44
When did you feel like paralyzed like you didn't know what to work on first?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:47
No, but I was also the Energizer Bunny at this time. I, I was one of those people, because after I've, you know, I fell into recruiting, I switched my degree from computer program. And this was so I should have just finished it because I one class short of my associate's degree in computer programming, and I'm like, I'm not going to do it, I should have. But I so I switched my degree to my, you know, my bachelor's degree in business with an emphasis in human resource management. gunho, I took my work home, I went through all of my, you know, applicants at home. And then I knew the next day had come in Call, call call call set up interview, interview, interview interview. And, you know, I was actually recruiting for GE. And at that time, I didn't have to do a whole lot of sourcing at that time. So it was just interviewing and qualifying. And everybody wanted to work for GE and this was sensing FANTIC. These were all high level, you know, highly technical, you know, type roles. And my number one and this is the funny thing. My number one thing that I like to recruit for was salespeople.
 
Robbie Reck  17:54
Hmm, yeah. So that's where I was, that's where I was going with this is once the pandemic hit. My clients said, Hey, I don't care that you're my finance recruiter. We don't need people to cut costs. Right now, we've already done that. That was the that was the easy part. They're like, but I just lost 25% of my revenue 35, 45% my revenue, I need salespeople. And in my mind goes, like I said, I made that like those that 50, 50 grand in Billings going into COVID. In the first couple months, I thought I was going to have to kind of pivot to like outplacement helping executives that got laid off, like I thought that was going to be a possible pivot or at least an avenue. And then I ended up getting pulled into all of the sales searches, sales and leadership were the two things that that were needed. And, you know, during the pandemic, and you know, ended up having to work, you know, nights and weekends, I was probably putting in close to 80 hours a week, and, you know, for three straight months. And, you know, it was I was grateful just to have the business, to be honest. Because I just did there was so much uncertainty still, like early in, you know, 2020, like mid 2020, early in the pandemic just didn't know, when the music was going to stop. And you know, it really hasn't. I mean, I've seen you have such a tight labor market. I'm sure that's something that you want to know, a little bit. Well, what does that look like for employers?
 
Leighann Lovely  19:29
Yeah, it's I mean, and the question, I'm sure that you get you. I get anybody who's in the HR, the hiring the where are all the people, where are all the people? You know, I am, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, somebody asked me that question, especially if my husband's around. I'm like, somehow, I don't know, have an emergency and pull me away. I'm so tired of answering that
 
Robbie Reck  19:54
Well, it's somewhat of an easy answer to the demographics in the US. We just don't don't have, like everyone wants to continue to make the profits that were made when we had baby boomers. And millennials in the, in the job market, we just we don't we're losing, you know, pre pandemic, we were losing 10,000 Baby Boomers to retirement a day, right? And then a bunch of them took early retirement. So now, you know, and for every, every three, that three baby boomers that were retiring or leaving the job market, we only have one millennial, or Gen Z to replace them,
 
Leighann Lovely  20:35
Right? And they were expecting, they were expecting that we were going to have a baby boom, another baby boom. And we we didn't know. So you know, my girlfriend said it to me boss, she says Leanne, either the pandemic is going to create a whole lot of babies, or a whole lot of divorces. And I laughed at her and I said that. Right? I laughed at her. I said, Oh, no. And then I went, That's Oh, that that is probably really true, people are going to be stuck in their houses together. Yeah. And they're going to have to find a way to pass the time. So either they're going to have babies or cover your cover your kids ears, any parents who are listening. So either they're going to have babies, or they're going to end up really, really, really disliking each other in some way or another because you're stuck in your house. Like, what, you know, I can't wait to have my girl time and I love my family. But man after, you know, two straight days with them, I'm like, I want to go to work. I want you to go to work and I want you to go to school,
 
Robbie Reck  21:43
Absence, absence definitely makes the heart grow fonder. Yes. No, I'm, I'm a firm believer in space, and so in, in intentionally creating that space to make sure that you don't, you know, fizzle out,
 
Leighann Lovely  21:57
Right? It's about it's about mental health, and everybody needs to have an outlet that is only for themselves. It's, I mean, well, maybe maybe a five year old doesn't, but I'm sorry. I digress. Okay, so that question the Where did all the people go? It drove me crazy for so long, which leads me into, you know, this next kind of, you know, little tidbit or discussion, you know, employers, you know, come to have come to me have, I'm sure come to you and they want to be able to hire somebody, after somebody has left. They want to be able to hire somebody that is as qualified as the person who just left that position. And it does happen. But it is becoming more and more of a rarity to be able to hire somebody in those high level, those even sometimes mid level positions. Because during the pandemic, and even still, after the pandemic, we continue to have the highly skilled individuals because of age, often, many of them retired. I also saw many people become entrepreneur entrepreneurs, they had no other option of well, I've got to find a way to make money, I'm going to become an entrepreneur, I'm going to do my own thing. So we've seen all of these highly skilled individuals leave the market go out on their own. And so in now, employers are going well, no, no, no. I want to hire somebody who's got the same skill set as the person who just exited my company. Okay. Can you train somebody? Well, no, I don't have time for training. Yeah.
 
Robbie Reck  23:59
So I, I'll give you one. So just this week, I had a kickoff call. So we take anywhere from probably in a normal week, anywhere between one and three new searches on is a pretty average week for us. So we had one this week. And early early on in the call, I just shut it down. Because the the hiring manager described, yeah, I always asked, you know, what are the three things you need to see on a resume? And the first thing he wanted was direct experience from a competitor was like, Alright, no problem. How many direct competitors do you have within 50 miles? Oh, there's one. Okay. All right. I'm gonna do you have within 100 miles, there's two more. So there's a total of three companies. And I said, let me let me just stop this here. And I said, I'm, in the 12 years I've been doing this. I just don't. I stopped going out beyond 50 miles in terms of like a driving radius. was just not interesting.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:58
Was he willing to pay relocation?
 
Robbie Reck  25:02
Um, yeah, I think so. The other thing, but the other thing like I, I also don't relocate candidates, right? So that's, it just adds so much risk to the placement where like now it's not okay if, if that employee is doing they could be doing phenomenally well at their job. They love it, the employer loves it. But then now you have Okay, now, did that spouse not acclimate to the community? Did the kids not acclimate to the schools? And does that employee now have, you know, a spouse and kids in their ear saying, I just don't want to be here anymore, I want to move back to where our family is, I want to move back to our old community, because we all know, especially in this environment, when someone takes a new job, they're there, they're definitely going to get a counteroffer when when they put in their notice, if they're worth their salt, at all right, right, which is the people that I'm posting, right, right, I'm only working with passive candidates for the most part, I would say, as an executive recruiter, at five or more percent of our candidates are currently employed, we, we definitely have candidates who are in between jobs, but it's, it's the exception, not the rule. So they're gonna get a counteroffer from their current employer, and then once they start in their new job, that could that previous employer, as long as that job is still open, they are going to plant seeds in that old co workers head. And they're going to try to get them to come back. So I don't, I don't like to take the risk of relocating. So our ideal would be, you know, if we can find someone within 10 Miles Great. here in Milwaukee, like if it's a bigger candidate pool, people aren't going to go like, we typically don't go beyond 25 miles because it's about a 30 minute commute. But rural, this was a rural search. So I was willing to go up to 50 miles, and had to just shut this, you know, the conversation down really, really quickly. Because I said, I just don't think we can, we're gonna be able to deliver, if you only want to see candidates coming out of one company within 50 miles of you, I said, that's, you know, we'll grab enough calm enough information here. So that we can find the few folks that are at that direct competitor. And we will we'll go after them for the next three weeks. But can I get a commitment from you that three weeks from now, you answer my next question, which is, like if we can't find someone from our direct competitor that has that really niche experience, because this was a leadership role. This is, you know, six figure role. I think they were a number, probably a number two, or number three, you know, in the line in terms of, you know, highest level at that plant. And I said, I want to have a comment, I want a commitment from you for three weeks from now, to give me what I expect we're going to need is if we can't find someone from a direct competitor, what is that next person look like? Right? What can you work with? And what what does that profile look like, of someone who has potential that you would train? And he knows what that is? He wasn't willing to share it with me this week. So we'll you know, we'll we'll circle back in three weeks, because I just don't expect when we can only call on, you know, one company within 50 miles. I mean, I've done I've done jobs, I've done searches in Milwaukee, where there were legitimately 10 Total candidates that were qualified to do that job. And I was able to get three of those individuals to interview and placed one of them. But that those are those stories that you tell because they're exceptions like that. That is, I mean, you can't expect that to happen. Normally, so I try to be a realist and just say, hey, you know, if we can't deliver for you, I don't want you setting expectations that you you're going to see a lot of resumes from us because even in a normal search, my goal right now is one, two, and I'm probably a maximum of three candidates for an entire search. Because our filter is just so high we we go after such a targeted skill set and we we know how to ask the right questions, to know how you know how to target the right candidate and find that right mix of this is going to get us the right candidate, but it's not too it's not the parameters aren't too tight where we're not going to have any candidates that we can talk to. But, you know, even even when we get what we feel is a comfortable parameter for a search. You know, right now we're delivering usually two resumes, maybe a third. That's that's kind of what it looks like today in 2015, I would have been able to deliver a candidate slate of five in a week with ease, and I could commit to that.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:18
And what is your what is your response to that employer? When they say, when you've delivered this amazing candidate? They've interviewed, they come back. Yeah, I loved them. They were great. But we're not we're not ready to make that decision. Yeah, we're not we want to see more. Yeah, we want to see just maybe one or two more. Yeah. And you're relying
 
Robbie Reck  30:41
And you kown what? For the most part, I don't fight it too much. Because like I said, I don't I don't sell candidates to employers, and I don't sell employers to candidates. So if they are not ready to pull the trigger. I want I tried to respect that as long as I can. Right. But I do. I'm very clear with them that hey, if you want to wait, the risk is the candidate is going to move on? Right? The candidates have so many opportunities in the market today. Correct? Right? We're as as employers, everyone is fighting over scraps, right? We're, we're, we are the eight candidates today. We were calling the candidates three years ago. Right? Right. But we have to pay them like they're eight players.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:32
And it's and it's wildly frustrating when you know, because I I've been in your situation where I'm the salesperson going, No, you don't get it. This is the best candidate, I'm not holding back on you. I'm not keeping a better one in my back pocket. So that I can wow, you at the end. This is the best candidates. And they're like, Yeah, boss.
 
Robbie Reck  31:59
Yeah, most of my contracts are contingent base intentionally. So we'll do we'll do some money upfront, depending on the level of search, right? If it's going to be, you know, 150. and above, in terms of base salary, I'm probably gonna want some money down on that. But I try to stay away from pure retained searches, because it just adds stress. But I don't think needs to be there. Because I want clients to be able to walk away from us, and I want us to be able to offer from clients if, if it's not the right fit. So I, the majority of what I'm doing is contingent based, and partly so that I don't have to worry so much like if they, if they want to walk away from a candidate or let them die on the vine. Like that's, that's really their choice. And all I can do for the most part is say, hey, you know, I will let you know, as soon as that candidate has other opportunities, but even if they don't have other opportunities, you know, we've got a candidate right now where the candidate is truly the front runner in the search. But they interviewed, let's say, probably 45 days ago, they did their first kind of first and second interviews. And now they're going back in for their third, they're, you know, kind of like the onsite next step in the process. But we waited. And, you know, the client wanted to wait 3045 days to see what else was out there in the market as benchmarks. So now this candidate is still the front runner, but those 30 to 45 days turn into doubt. Right, so corral. Now we've got someone who's, you know, worried about, were they really not excited about me, because it seems like, you know, they were waiting for someone else, when in fact that the candidate has been the front runner the entire time. But you just never trust that. So, as recruiters, we can't even, we can't even say that because we know we're not going to be trusted. We just have to say, you know, hey, they are excited about you. You will we'll get you on the phone with them. So you can hear that's the other thing that we try to do is is not deliver any news ourselves. I want a candidate to hear from that hiring manager. how confident they are in them, right? So because hearing it from third party just does I mean, it just does nothing I wouldn't trust getting feedback through a third party. I want to hear it firsthand cuz I want to know, did their sound did their voice sound confident when they're saying what they said? Or was it trembling and were they struggling to like deliver and they believe what they're saying,
 
Leighann Lovely  34:44
well, and recruiters get a bad rap, because the managers one we have a certain recruiters and the salespeople the account managers have a certain amount of confidentiality that they have to hold on behalf of that company. They can't run back to the candidate and say A Well, they're just they're going to interview all of these other people so that they can match you up and see if they really like you and and make sure that you're still the front row. I mean, you can't you can't tell the candidate that you have to really be.
 
Robbie Reck  35:11
We try to be as transparent as possible. I, you know, we share with candidates way more than I think most people would be comfortable with and we share with with clients or with hiring managers, way more than most people would be comfortable with. What you're saying about confidentiality, we do a ton of confidential searches. And part of that is
 
Leighann Lovely  35:31
I was going to ask you that
 
Robbie Reck  35:33
We've got to, we've got a process where we feel comfortable. So even with despite how difficult it is to find candidates today, we feel confident going to the market without being able to say, this is exactly where it's located. This is the exact name of the client, or this is the exact sector that they're in and, and still deliver a candidate slate of that two to three candidates that are are all higher. So when I say two to three candidates, I mean, two to three candidates who deserve that job and are qualified and worth, you know, a 30% fee. Right, right, not not just a warm body. I would rather send zero resumes, than send someone who's off target for what we're going for
 
Leighann Lovely  36:23
Right, No. And I think that the majority of people who take pride in the work that they do, would rather send nobody, then send somebody who is going to, okay, yeah, you're lose me a client or lose a client, right?
 
Robbie Reck  36:39
Absolutely unwilling to violate the trust of a hiring manager by by not listening to what they said, Now, I will push as much as I can, during that conversation to say, hey, I don't what you're describing, I don't think exists. So we need to loosen those parameters, I will be very assertive at that point. But once we've come to an agreement as a hiring manager, and then us as the outside recruiting firm, once we've taken on that search, I am unwilling to say, you know, hey, we're, I'm just going to send this over. I know, it's I know, the candidate just does not have really good tenure. But you know, trust me, I just, I don't really, I'm not going to violate the trust of the hiring manager. If they've told me, Hey, I need a, b and c and a candidate only has D. And that's it, I would not be doing my job, right. And I would just get I would be fired, I wouldn't be able to represent that company, and open the doors for the candidates moving forward.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:44
But that's also a conversation that you have to have up front with. And I've had that conversation with multiple clients before of Look, you're saying that you absolutely need a, b and c. Now let me ask you a question. If I presented a case, or if I came up with a candidate that had a B, but was missing C? Are you telling me that that's 100%? off the table? And if they say Well, no, then it's like, okay, wait a second, we need to go back to square one. Yeah. So often, so often, all of a sudden, when you go, Yeah, they'll have a, b, and c, but what if they don't have the master's degree? They have the bachelor's degree with a certification, and then they go, Well, that would be enough. Okay, well, then we need to get clear on what you really want.
 
Robbie Reck  38:24
Yeah, and every search is dynamic, right? So I do think, you know, as, as candidates get into the process, and as hiring managers meet what the market bears, they can there, they might increase what they're looking for, right? They might say, Wow, I was really blown away by that candidate. Now, I want some of the things that they bring to the table that I wasn't even thinking of, and their list gets longer, unfortunately. Right. But, you know, and I guess now that I'm thinking of it, I don't really think that goes the other direction. But, you know, we do know
 
Leighann Lovely  39:02
No and that's missing. And that's not necessarily true, though. I've had I had a hiring manager telling me that for a customer service, position, customer service position, they were answering the phone and taking notes told me that this person had to have a bachelor's degree. Okay. And I'm like, and I mean, the salary, the salary was going to be like 45, or something like that, if that I mean, and it had to have a bachelor's degree, so 45,000 a year with a bachelor's degree. And I basically told them, it's never gonna happen. I'm not going to find a customer service person. Because if you look at the statistics on how many individuals nowadays have bachelor's degrees, that number is way below 50 percents and people coming out in the market right now. I mean, you know, you know that 50,000 years is like, it's like $25 an hour, people are demanding in $20 an hour to work at McDonald's or it's like 18 or something. So to say, 45,000 a year with a bachelor's degree. You can see my face, I'm making a face, but it's just not. It's just not feasible. So, you know, they're, you know, I had to go back and have a conversation and be like, sorry,
 
Robbie Reck  40:26
Yeah, well, we'll, we'll do that. But we will do that upfront, we're not going to do that by sending a candidate who's a stretch without saying, but like, I guess, if we're going to send a stretch candidate, we're going to say, right up front, hey, they don't have this thing that you mentioned. And save them the time of reading the resume, or the write up? If, if that is truly going to be a deal breaker. But usually, we're going to know what those deal breakers are, before we get out of it before we actually accept a search. And get out of that initial call. Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:05
Yeah, no. And I, you know, my hope is that, obviously, I never want to put somebody in a job that they're not capable of doing. That is not my goal, as an interviewer, you know, as somebody who works in somebody who works to try to figure out how to help companies, hire, train, retain all of those things. However, I think that companies nowadays have to understand that we're not living in 2015 1617, eight. We're not in that world or in that market anymore. There has to be a new approach.
 
Robbie Reck  41:46
Yeah I haven't? I haven't seen that mindset really changed yet. So I think there is, I think there's lip service that it has changed, right, I think a lot of people will say that they understand how tight of a candidate market is and how the candidate has all the leverage. However, the behaviors that we still have, as hiring managers and companies, dates back to the 2008 recession, right? Where you had you truly had 500 people applying for jobs that were and you had 10 people that were highly qualified for what you wanted. And you just had, you could just pick one, right? So that that started getting tighter and tighter and tighter every single year since, with the exception of let's call it 12 monster in the pandemic. And then went right, you know, the rubber band snapped right back to where it was pre pandemic cracks. But yeah, we don't have we have not gotten to the point where employers have really said, you know, what, I can wrap my head around, that the B players that I used to consider as B players are now what the market is valuing as a players and I have to pay them at as such, that I hear them say that they understand it, but I don't really see that in terms of their behaviors and their attitudes yet. And it still could be coming out. You know, I've heard, I don't know if you've heard of the all in podcast, but a guy that I really respect by the name of Chamath talked through how inflation is was really like a three year cycle. So our first year was energy inflation. And we all saw that last year was the inflation of goods and services because of the energy inflation the year before right. Now, I think a lot of folks are thinking, Well, we do have a recession coming up. And you know, inflation is going to go away because of that. But his prediction is that we're going to have wage inflation as the third phase of the inflationary cycle. So energy inflation went down was replaced by goods and services, inflation. But now as goods and services start to decline in price, wages are going to just take up that vacuum in 2023. So I don't I'm interested to see how that plays out. Because I, you know, wages already went up on average 30, you know, from what I saw in the transactions we did last year 30 35%.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:36
And, and I felt like for a long time that there was going to be a balance on that. But since since, right, but since there is continually so many jobs open, and so few people quality, high quality, skilled people to fill those jobs. I'm now realizing it's not going to balance out because people are Still fighting to be extremely competitive and get, you know, those individuals to come and work for them. So I think now, now, I'm thinking No, there is not going to be a balance of wages right now. And I think that that prediction is right, that there's going to continue to be the inflation, you know, of wages. I mean, it's bizarre it is.
 
Robbie Reck  45:19
It's weird, because I started, like, I knew there was uncertainty in the stock market, at least starting almost 12 months ago, it was probably a March, April of last year, you know, I, there are enough people out, you know, speaking publicly that at something had to happen in the stock market and the economy. So, as a recruiter, I was kind of waiting for the the the other shoe to drop to drop in terms of layoffs hitting the Midwest, or the, you know, the US in general. And so far, a lot of those layoffs have really hit the tech sector, they've hit the coasts, they haven't hit the Midwest as hard yet. And that's really where, you know, the wage inflation pressure would be taken off is if if we have if we have layoffs, that'll take pressure off, because there's gonna be more candidates and the candidates won't have as much leverage. Correct and you never problem is in the Midwest. We're it's not a very service oriented workforce. It's a it's a manufacturing workforce. Right. And the, the need for those products, that demand is not really going anywhere yet.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:34
Right. You're right. I mean, we're we're majority of the manufacturing is still catching up to I mean,
 
Robbie Reck  46:46
There's untapped demand. You know, I've got clients that, you know, we'll sit down with and they'll say, I've got one to two years of backlog, correct. That I could take advantage of, if I can hire these enough folks to take advantage of it. But I can't even go after that business yet. Right. It's just, it's just built in demand. It's latent demand, potential demand, right? There's just so much business that could be done. And we don't have the workforce that can support.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:20
Think about the car industry. Think about the backlog on that. And I'd love to continue this conversation, because I'm, like, so intrigued in it. But I know that we are coming to time, and I want to respect that. So I have the question of the season. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role?
 
Robbie Reck  47:38
Yeah, this is an easy one for me. So when I, when I started my own firm in 2018, I put in my contracts, and I thought this was going to be something that was going to be really impactful in the market was if I, if I take an employee, as a as an executive recruiter that you trust, I poached one of your employees after I play someone with you. Right, I thought that was a cardinal sin. And I still do. And we don't do that, as a firm, I don't do that. Personally, my, the people that work for me Don't do that. I thought putting it in a contract, I was going to be able to charge a premium for that. Because that's the biggest thing that I hear hiring managers complain about is, I have a relationship with a recruiter, and then eventually they violate that trust, and they steal someone from me. And when I when I put my money where my mouth was and said, Hey, if we ever do that, I'll just hand the fee that we earned to you to make sure that we're never incentivized. And that will never happen to you. And what I what, what shocked me in the market was our, our employers in the Wisconsin market here just didn't care enough. So they complain about it. But when it comes to, are you going to pay five or 10% more in terms of a fee? No, they're not going to do that. So that was that was an interesting test. But that would be the one thing that if we could take it away from the recruiting world, there'd be so much more trust in the recruiters that you use. And obviously, there's there's a lot of recruiters that are out there that have been doing this for, you know, 10 or 20 years that have that trust already built up, right. But the folks that are just getting into recruiting where they're, you know, three, six months in, they haven't built those relationships, yet. They have to deal with this stigma of some of the recruiters are bad actors. And because they weren't making them their numbers, they cut corners and took employees from their clients and violated that trust and loss or those accounts. But in some cases, they don't even lose the accounts. They just aren't trusted, and then they're, you know, now they don't have an exclusive relationship with that company anymore. Right? And then they don't have the trust. So that would be the biggest thing that I would change is Can we get some trust back into the, into the administration? Yeah, as a as an external recruiter, but, you know, all I can do is, you know, control that within our own firm and make sure that we never do that. But, you know, the more my the more my competitors do it, the easier it makes my job though,
 
Leighann Lovely  50:22
Right? Yep. Well, if somebody wanted.
 
Robbie Reck  50:24
Maybe I wouldn't want to change that.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:25
Right, more business for you. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Robbie Reck  50:34
Easiest thing. So Kilbournmarshall.com is easy. And then my email address is just Robert.reck@ Kilbournmarshall.com. And I owning the firm myself. You know, I respond on weekends, I respond, you know, very, very quickly. We've got an incredibly high sense of urgency when there's a need. So happy to help anyone out. That is, you know, maybe they don't trust the recruiter that they're using as much as they used to.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:08
Excellent. Well, hey, Robbie, I really appreciate the time that you took to talk with me. It's been a really awesome conversation. It could have continued talking for the next hour. But thank you so much.
 
Robbie Reck  51:19
Thank you. All right. Thank you so much.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:23
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact information
 
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/reckrobert
 
Website – kilbournmarshall.com
 
E-Mail – Robert.reck@ kilbournmarshall.com
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
candidate, people, pandemic, searches, recruiter, job, clients, employers, hiring, recruiting, market, year, finance, hiring manager, Milwaukee, trust, company, thought, executive recruiter, business
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

The Importance of True Relationship with Your Employees with Kellie Commons

Kellie Commons is an HR geek by her own admission and a very smart one at that. She has been in some of the toughest industries to staff and manage, in my opinion. From manufacturing to food and beverage she knows how to create an environment that people want to work in. She invests time in understanding people so that true relationships can be developed.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, Business Owners and Operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
Another great episode coming to you today. I'm speaking with Kellie Commons. Originally from Milwaukee Kellie left Wisconsin for her undergrad at Purdue University and a job at in Kansas City, Missouri, but new Milwaukee was a place to raise a family after nearly a decade in manufacturing, and an MBA from Mount Mary Kellie returned to her hospitality roots to build human resource functionality for Saz's Hospitality Group, and now is a senior HR business partner with Gehl Foods and beverage in Germantown. Small businesses and community involvement are her passion. So she works with a number of organizations in the area and volunteers with groups to help students grow like launch and teaches in the Lubar College of Business. At UW Milwaukee, Kellie was recognized in 2020 as a notable women in human resource by BuzTimes Media, she tries to be as avid with fitness as she is with reading and napping, and loves exploring the Waukee area restaurants Kellie lives in Wauwatosa with her partner Rob, who is an owner of Vennture Brew company and her daughter, Anna, I'm excited to have this awesome conversation with a very amazing woman. So let's welcome her.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:36
Kellie, welcome. I am so excited to talk with you today.
 
Kellie Commons  02:41
Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:43
So Kellie, why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself and your background?
 
Kellie Commons  02:48
Sure, absolutely. I am currently a senior HR business partner with gale food and beverage in Germantown, Wisconsin. But I spent about the last seven years working for sasses Hospitality Group here in the Locky organization about 1000, folks, and I spent that time leading their HR team and building out HR functionality for them. I currently am teaching at UWS. I'm an adjunct in the Lubar college. I was previously teaching at Mount Mary University, which is where I received my MBA. So I find myself loving to talk about HR related topics, whether the listeners want to listen or not, which is sometimes the case of students. I live in Wauwatosa. I have a 16 year old, my partner owns a small business here that I tried to keep my HR nose out of.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:41
That's funny that you try to keep your HR you know, it's hard though, right? Especially when you're when you're, you know, an HR junkie.
 
Kellie Commons  03:50
Yes, there are times where I'm like, Are you sure you want to do that? Just that way. But you know, not my circus, not my monkeys.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:01
Right? Well, that's awesome. So, you know, it's really interesting. You you came from, you spent a lot of time at, you know, in the hospitality industry and now you've moved to, you know, something that's you've moved away from that. So I, I would love to talk about, you know, I guess the differences in sure where you you were to where you're where you are, I mean, that's two different animals.
 
Kellie Commons  04:30
Yeah, they, you know, it's kind of a little bit like the difference between a tiger and a mountain lion though they are different animals that share a lot of similarities. And this is a return to manufacturing for me. So I've kind of been on a seesaw for the last 15 years. My background in education isn't hospitality. But then I worked in manufacturing for almost eight years, and then came back to hospitality and now back in manufacturing, so I've had a great opportunity Just see those differences and the similarities. You know, one of the biggest differences is that it is easier for folks sometimes to understand a career path. In the manufacturing industry, it is a little bit cleaner and a little bit more acceptable to have a blue collar job. You know, hospitality jobs are often kind of the brunt of the brunt of the joke, right? Like you went to school, and now you're a barista or you're a server. So kind of the ability to attract and retain people is a little bit different on the manufacturing side, because it is more classically presented as a job you can have it's kind of end, but you can turn into, you know, a lifelong pursuit. Sometimes it's a tough sell for hospitality, folks.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:57
And why do you think that is?
 
Kellie Commons  06:02
I think historically, a lot of it is the perception of the financial availability in hospitality. You know, there are some hospitality jobs as servers and bartenders can make extraordinarily generous living, you know, with very flexible hours, and they're skilled folks. But that's not the perception unless you've been in it. You know, if you're a lifelong bartender, if you look at, you know, the tropes in TV and movies, you know, somebody's been a bartender for 15 years, it's the butt of jokes, you know, I think of Nick Miller, a new girl, right, like being a bartender was his failure job. And if he had worked a line in a manufacturing plant, it would have really changed the premise of the show, you know, I, but I think the commonality there is sometimes that they are, both industries are a difficult sell outside as prestigious or something to be aspired to, I'm really glad that we're seeing a shift in how we approach students pursuing post high school, that it's not that important to have that four year degree that briefcase life that you know that there are other options available for students for whom that isn't comfortable or attractive or aligned with their skill set. So we're seeing that crack open a little bit more and become more popular is not the word I want, but more acceptable, more featured in high school students to see them pursue technical paths, apprenticeship paths, instead of that, you know, pursuit of a four year degree that, you know, might make them end up as a barista, just to circle back around. So the difference really, I think, is how people perceive the industries. The earning potential, the skills required more than anything else.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:03
You know, what movie keeps popping into my head, as you're talking is, and this is, I'm gonna date myself here, but the movie cocktail, right? Yeah. I mean, he's was it. What's the actor, Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise is He's busting his butt to go to college. Right? And, and he's just, he's not making it, not making it. And then he becomes a wildly successful bartender. And then he falls in love with a woman whose family won't accept him because he is a bartender, they in the end end up together. And it's not by any means, like this perfect, you know, perfect straight path. But in the end, he gets to have a dream of still being a bartender, right. And I go back to you know, during my time of growing up, it was you have to have a four year college to be successful. But that's not that doesn't. That doesn't hold water in today's society anymore. Because there are wildly successful people. One of my best friends makes a amazing living as a server. She has people who come she has people who who would come in just to see her and sit in her section because they liked her.
 
Kellie Commons  09:25
And the thing is, it didn't hold water for the last 25 years either. Just right. We weren't really availed any other options. You know, it was the path that we were shown it was the picture that we painted for students, that was how employers structured jobs in so many cases where that it wasn't necessary, or maybe even meaningfully beneficial. You know, the number of roles I've heard over time where it doesn't matter what they have a degree in as long as they Start with something. Well, that's nonsense. You know, if somebody was in a progressive role for the last four years, and building skills and experience, that is that is equally valuable, it shows that same stick to itiveness. And I could be in school for forever, if you gave me unlimited funding, I'm still trying to crack a way to make money reading books and thinking about stuff and talking about ideas and writing papers, if I could do it, I would. Head is not like that I'm, I'm in the minority to love school, the school setting that much. That's not how a lot of people learn best, it's not accessible to them in that style. And that's great, you know, some of the most successful folks I know, regardless of their role, or industry didn't come along on that path. And they're extraordinarily successful, right. So it had trying to find paths and avenues, I work with the the program called Launch here locally in the Wauwatosa Ellenberg school districts that put students in opportunities on a variety of different industry related threads, strands not threads to be paired with a professional mentor, and solve a real life business problem and give them exposure to what things could look like on some paths that that could take you into a four year education. Or could take you into an apprenticeship or a technical program, and really get a feel for where your skills and strengths lie. And seeing more employers partner with organizations like that, and programs in that vein, to give students a more holistic viewpoint of what truly skills and education are available, and how you can gain those in ways that aren't necessarily, you know, spending more than $100,000. You know, the economics of underdeveloped countries in the history of rock and roll like there's, there's there's better way as I what I that's one of the things that I love about both hospitality and manufacturing, are that there are there's been a lot of attention to developing and displaying career paths within the industries and organizations that I've worked with, to show, this isn't a dead end job, you know, this, you're not going to stand on this line forever, that you if what you want is to learn and grow and expand within this company, or within this industry, there are our paths towards that.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:51
And I love what you just said that, that it within the industry, they are now starting to show that there are paths. And I think that that's where it's been lacking, you become a server, and there's nothing else that that's what you're gonna do from the time you start till the time that you end to that you're no longer there. And if there's if there's an actual path, because they've done a really great job of showing that when you're in this, you know, white color, you know, roll of here, you know, here's where you begin, here's where you can go. But that's not necessarily what happens with everybody. You have to have somebody at every level. And some people don't.
 
Kellie Commons  13:30
People don't want that correct. Continue moving up. And you need those folks, those right. Well, that no all the secrets and the subject matter expertise. The unfortunate as Glad as I am to see it happening now though, I think a lot of the struggle is that we've we're way behind the eight ball, manufacturing and hospitality in particular, have legged in responding to the changing needs of the workforce over the last 15 years. This was something that we needed to be focused on. But there was such a an embarrassment of riches in terms of available people in the workforce who were willing or needed to take whatever job they could get. And you could you know, put them in that Ron Popeil rotisserie and just set them and forget them. And if they quit thought you hire somebody else, you know, you fill those entry level roles. And never meaningfully in hospitality and manufacturing very much. So gave them that attention that someone in the entry level of a white collar job may have gotten about, here's what the ladder looks like. Right. And so as employees, we have fewer people in the workforce than you know, in any time in recent history, and folks that are entering the workforce, and folks that are in the workforce are requiring different things from their employers. And I think that That's great. And watching these two industries kind of crack open to understand the importance of providing that visibility, I think is a long time coming, but very valuable steps.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:11
Right? If we were to treat it, how do we treat? Because it's you're talking about it happening now. But had it always been? You treats? Regardless of the industry? Is it white collar, blue collar? Hospitality, I don't know which where that falls under. But had we treated all of them are the same regardless of, you know, education regardless, here's, here's where you're starting, here's the path of how you can progress. And in I'm assuming that in hospitality, I know it in manufacturing, because I understand that industry, I don't understand hospitality as well. But there is room to grow, right? There is room to hospitality, hey, you can become a trainer, you can become the manager of a division or whatever within. So there, there is there is I'm assuming growth opportunity. And like, absolutely. And like you said, not everybody wants that. Even in the white color industry even, right, hey, I just want to go in, I want to be a help desk technician. And I'm wanting to be really, really good at that. And that's my dream.
 
Kellie Commons  16:20
Yep, I just want to punch, I want to leave it at work, I, you know, I want to do this thing. I don't want to train people, I don't want to supervise people, I don't want to they want to do this, and I want you to pay me a little more every year and just leave me alone. Correct. And that's great. Those people are invaluable.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:36
Correct. And that's the same thing, if you want to be a machine operator, I just want to do this, I want to punch now. If you want to go in and eventually move up and become a trainer, a plant manager, whatever that might look like, it's no different.
 
Kellie Commons  16:52
Right? Or, you know, you're a machine operator. But are you curious about quality? Are you curious about supply chain, like, these are different paths that we can put you on? You know, this is how you can pursue that slight shift in gears or, you know, if you want to do this for a year, while you're going to school, while you're figuring it out, while you're deciding on the next thing, great, you know, we also need that that turnover is necessary. You know, being an HR professional part of you know, there, there's that propensity to say, drop the turnover to zero, we keep everybody forever, never leave, please never leave. But it really is about striking that balance between those folks that need to climb and want to climb those subsistence folks that want to just stick in their lane and be comfortable and experts at what they do. And those folks who want to come and go and bring an idea or a joke that becomes part of the culture or a sunshiny attitude, or an example of what not to do and stay for a shorter tenure, to keep that momentum in the business and keep the the team fresh. They're all important players, and they impact those numbers in such different ways.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:11
Absolutely. And now and you said, you know, obviously, you know the goal 0% turnover, right? That's it's never going to happen. I shouldn't say I mean,
 
Kellie Commons  18:25
What a nightmare. Oh, think of how horrible if we had 0% turnover? There were two years, nobody's gonna retire. And then why? You know, how do we
 
Leighann Lovely  18:35
Well, and there's never any fresh ideas. There's never any, you would never have, you know, organic growth in the sense of somebody coming in and saying, hey, you know, you could do it better this way. Or you could, you know, the whole concept of there would never be anybody coming in from another organization or a young or young brain who's like, you know, you could actually do it this way to reduce,
 
Kellie Commons  19:00
You know, yeah, whatever it might be, we just do it how we've always done it. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:07
So there always needs to be that that, you know, new fresh blood coming in. But I also have heard a lot of people saying that some of those younger people coming in, they want to, they want to be loyal. They they're they're looking to find their home.
 
Kellie Commons  19:26
Sure, nobody, it's a rare person that enjoys the need to bounce. In my experience, working with folks that are predominantly Gen Z as students in the workforce. Within those launch programs, there isn't that intrinsic mental link for that age group where loyalty and longevity are necessarily tied. They want to be loyal in that they want to be engaged and contribute and understand what's happening. happening and be valued. And if that's true, they will stay for longer periods of time. But they are also not opposed to being loyal to 100%. For shorter periods of time, like that we especially as you know, elder millennials, and you know, Gen X leaders have this idea that loyalty means longevity. Loyalty means that you're not on your phone and you're offering fresh ideas and you're invested in what you're doing, and your work is being completed on schedule, and you're giving me and the organization, your best, it doesn't mean that you're phoning it in at 65%. But you stay for five years, that's, I don't want that type of, I don't want that type of loyalty. You know, I'm concerned, regardless of the timeframe, with an engaged, contributing workforce, you know, do I want people to leave every six to 12 months? No, you know, I would love to see, but three years is a wonderful tenure for folks in this Gen Z bucket. They are energized and you get a lot of contributions from them, but it never gets stale. And you're you get a reasonable turn of, of fresh ideas and voices.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:22
And it's wildly interesting, because I talked to so many HR professionals, and they always think of loyalty and longevity, as you know, an inclusion inclusive thing, jus haven't looked at as something different. Is is really refreshing because you can be wildly loyal, but only be at a company for two to three years. And and give it your all and then have that company in turn, not be upset when it's time for you to move on. And still in and I've had this conversation. I've had this conversation with HR professionals, when they're saying, you know, I don't know that this person's in it for the long haul. And I've had to say to him, if this person will give you high quality, awesome work for the next two years, is it worth it to hire them right now? Well, yeah. Okay. So why are you concerned that they're going to leave you, you know, that you don't want to hire him? Because they might leave you in five years? Or they might leave you at? What you know? And they're like, Well, you know, I really don't want to have to train somebody again. Okay. It's going to take what, two, three weeks to get them up and running. And then by, you know, two months, three months from now, they're gonna be out there on their own producing doing an awesome job for you, which is what you're saying? Well, yeah. Okay. So for two and a half, three years,
 
Kellie Commons  22:53
The real responsibility is having that argument with people. The real responsibility is that you as a leader, while there there need to work to increase the, or to decrease the time to proficiency for the next person. But it's it How fast can we get them up and running? Correct. Understanding that now we're shifting our focus to we want to lock somebody into this role for the next six years. And it we're shifting it to let's get someone in here who's passionate about it, and get them working as fast as we can, right? My partner likes to say, when he hires new team members, I'm just renting you until you're on to the next big thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:32
And that if we, if more, more leaders thought of it that way. And were in again, not. They were loyal to those employees, as long as those employees were at the company. And those employees were loyal to them there and understanding that because everybody wants Oh, you know, my company is the best. And anybody who works here is going to stay here forever. No, they're not. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to bust your you know, burst your bubble, I'm sorry to break your heart, but you're not the best. There is. Millions of organizations out there. And your your, if you want to leave this position open for the next six months, while you look for the perfect person who's going to stay there for the next 10 years. You're you're going to lose six months, maybe eight months of production. Or you could hire this person who you know, will do a great job, but you know, that they're probably going to leave in two years. But there's
 
Kellie Commons  24:32
But there's an interesting, but that mentality, oh, sorry, go ahead.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:36
But there are a ton of employers out there that still will say, Yeah, I'm going to pass on them because I think they're going to leave in two years. Okay, then you can leave this open, and you're going to lose the production that this person would jump in and be able to get up and running and give you those two solid years for sure. You know, and maybe leave and maybe you know what if you treat them amazing, and you do really Well, maybe he'll get three years out of them, maybe you'll get even longer out of them.
 
Kellie Commons  25:05
But maybe they'll stay with the organization and move into a different role if it is the best company like, and you know that I hate the word attitude across the board that voiced opinion from employers. And the fact that that is a known belief, prevents people from being honest about what they want to need. I've always had that mentality with my team like I am, you're here for now, you're in this role for as long as you are until you're on to your next adventure. Right? So I have had team members come to me and say, It's not that I'm unhappy with my job. But I think in the next couple of months, I'm going to be looking to move on to my next chapter. Right? Not two weeks notice. Because it isn't met with that resistance and that bitterness? How can you let and you know, we haven't we have the opportunity then to have an open conversation? Is there something about your job I can change? Would it help to shift? Is it money? Like, and okay, if it's time for you to leave? How can I support you into the next? Do you need some contacts? Do you need help taking a look at your resume, if we can have an open dialogue about the fact that we are not getting married. When we hire an employee, it's not forever, we can have a more open and honest dialogue when it's time for them to leave and move on to that next thing so that we don't feel so left in the lurch. Managing that retention schedule is a daily leadership function, that it's based on the relationship and not that one sided idea that you I hired you. And now you have to stay here forever.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:49
You know, and then God if, if more managers, and that really leads me into the next question that I was going to ask you, which is what are some of the strategies that you have to better understand your team and retain your people in in a market like this? And you're you are already answering that you're having that open dialogue and not having, you know, if people were more open and going to their managers and saying, you know, here are the reasons that I'm thinking or considering leaving. And that manager said, Okay, let's, let's talk it through. And if I can offer you something that you're missing in your current role, you want more responsibility, you want more, or if we just don't have it here, then I completely understand now your position to go. Okay. So in the next four months, I'm going to have another slot that I'm going to need to, to fill your as a company, you're better position to move and, you know, be prepared to to backfill that you're not going to be backfilling that, you're not going to be behind the mark, you're going to be ahead of the curve, where all the other companies are going to be like, Oh, wait, you're giving two weeks notice what, why, why you're doing such a good job, you're already aware. And you're right.
 
Kellie Commons  27:59
Take the next 10 days to write down everything you do, because we haven't been paying attention to your needs in this this day. And part of a to answer the question with kind of a pivot in this market. I think especially in manufacturing, and hospitality, so much of managing the employee needs is different than the conversations that are being had. I go to so many events and webinars and seminars and the folks that are having these conversations about even the data that's been collected there in white collar jobs. Even in manufacturing, hospitality, we're talking to people who sit in air conditioned offices, you know, like there, were talking about flexible scheduling and remote work, and those things are great. But I can't run a manufacturing plant remotely. Right. Um, and it's disappointing, especially as HR as a practice and employers overall are starting to talk about paths into professional life, but don't go through that four year college track. We're still not having conversations about how to meet the needs of people that don't take that path. I can't offer construction workers remote schedule. It's difficult to navigate sick time in some of those scenarios. Because I my my relatively white collar neighborhood is going to freak out if we don't get our snow plowed because we upped the sick days for our municipal package. And you know, so part of the struggle is a voice at the table. have employers is to say, the data we have on this doesn't apply. I think we need to be surveying, a surveys are such a tough thing. We need to be collecting more data, whether it is quantitative survey based data or internal qualitative feedback from our team members about how to serve their needs, and make the jobs that we're trying to get people to fill, and stay in more attractive and feasible to that one of our plants still move to the, you know, in order to fill the third shift, they said, we'll do 4-10s.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:43
It's so I completely understand what you're saying. So I, my husband, he is he's in a blue collar role. He runs a, you know, a process, he runs out, you know, he's on the manufacturing floor. So, you know, he's sitting here listening to me talk about, you know, oh, man, I can work from home when I whenever I want, I can do this. And, and he's sitting there going, Yeah, well, I have to go in every day, I have to be at my machine every day, he's like this, none of this stuff really applies to me, none of it. You know, why should I care about any of this? And I'm thinking to myself, Wow, through the entire pandemic, his business was considered essential. Yeah, it I mean, so think about all of these people, all, you know, the whole entire world is like, Oh, I only want to work remote. Now, I'm not gonna go into the office anymore. And here are these individuals, how you know, the hospitals, you've got all of these essential workers that the world is going crazy arguing about, I'm not going to I'm not going to go into the office anymore. And we're blind to the fact that there is a huge population of people, that still their lives did not change. They went to work every single day. And in some cases, they worked harder. I mean, my God hospitals, they worked their butts off. How and what are we doing? Because all of us, you know, white collar workers are saying, well, I want better conditions, I want to be able to work from home, why would I go into the office when I can do? We're sitting here being and forgive me, but selfishly, you know, me, me, me. But what about them? What about? How do we improve the quality, that of, of how they work? When we're still saying, Well, you need to be there every day, I need my labels for my bread, nut bread, cheese, or whatever, so that I can go to the store and get my and then we're sitting here whining about why is there a shortage of this toilet paper?
 
Kellie Commons  32:52
Why are their supply chain issues? Right? There was there's been a lot of statements over time, if you don't like it get get a better job, right? Get a better job. Like, there are a lot of roles in manufacturing companies that are on that production side that make excellent livings. It is arguably a better job than many, many options. You're saying get a different job that has the same standards that I do. But if that's the case, then you don't have food products, you have supply chain delays, you have municipal your trash isn't getting picked up, you're like, it's not, it's not as simple as we would like to make it out to be. And realistically, the workforce is pretty well split between those service based things where that remote work is possible. And those boots on the ground, there is no way to produce this remotely, roles that keep the whole thing on the wheel on its wheels. And we've spent so much time talking about the former category of employees. And it's continued to make that those latter categories appear less attractive to people having those conversations, right, because as employers, we are still trying to minimize any available cost, of course. And my challenge always, you know, as an HR practitioner has been that balance right where that fulcrum point between the appropriate sacrifice on the part of the business and the appropriate sacrifice on the part of the employee. And each party as HR practitioners, each side of that equation thinks that we're most concerned with the other side, you know, and but how, how do we balance that, you know, and how do we make those roles as attractive as possible and meeting the needs of the team? I wish we had more conversations about it. Right, especially as we have emphasized the importance of getting people into those roles.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:57
And I think that the people who are fit ugly on the floor need to have a voice at that table? They can't they can't have somebody speaking on their behalf. Because, and I know, and I'm not saying that somebody like you doesn't fully understand.
 
Kellie Commons  35:12
I don't I absolutely don't.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:15
Right, But you truly, you truly don't. Because you're, you're not in it every day somebody needs somebody who's physically, somebody who's physically doing that work, needs to have a seat at the table, to be able to say, look, I'm here to represent my fellow workers, I'm here to say, this is what would help us this would this is what would make a difference. For us. We know we have to be here, we know we have to come in every day. But what if we did this? What you know, and come up with different ideas? Because I don't know when the last time that I heard somebody who physically is doing that job, talk about how they could make it better. All the feedback that I always get is from somebody who's managing those people from an office. Yeah.
 
Kellie Commons  36:11
And I really do you know, we surveys have become such a buzz topic, right? We're always we're talking about employee engagement surveys, and blah, blah, blah. And sometimes those surveys, my question around the surveys, it's always like, do we want to win? Or do we want to learn? Do we want good numbers in this? Or like, reactions from employees that make it appear that we're doing everything we can? Or do we want to get just blasted? Like, do we want the ugly answers? Because I want the ugly answers, right, I want to I want to hear those things that I that I haven't heard, because sometimes it is things like, you know, it would be for a third shift would be more attractive to me, if I only had to do it three days, or four days a week, right? You know, if we could work six, six hour shifts for some people based on their family, you know, like, if we could break this into four, six hour shifts, where it could be a little bit more flexible for people.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:12
But I think that we've created a culture that is it's fear based. For so many individuals out there, well, if I speak up, and I'm honest about it, what if I lose my job? What if they replace me with somebody who's going to conform to what they need here? I mean, and, and I, I've seen those cultures, too. I've, I've placed individuals in there that literally start working there. And then three days later, they're like, I'm not working here anymore. And I'm like, why what's going on? And they're like, oh, what's a horrible, horrible culture, I cannot, you know, it's so there are those still those fear based cultures conform? Or your route? So we, you know, as a society, this is still a, you know, a systemic problem that that is, that is raging throughout, within some of these, you know, industries that exists still, it's conform, or go away, it's still the, or you're not doing this fast enough, or how dare you take a sick day is king, right? Production is, and I and I get that but there's gotta be a different, there's, there's got to be a better way.
 
Kellie Commons  38:22
And that's, culture is such an interesting thing. Because there again, you know, kind of the folks that sit in offices, work on culture a lot, as a topic, capital, see culture, right. And I've seen a lot of organizations, where the capital C culture that happens off the floor, what our mouths are saying doesn't match the the little c culture that is what happens on the floor, and is what our feet are doing. And I think there's a lot of disconnect in HR as a discipline, about how culture is driven. You know, I struggle as an HR practitioner with being charged with with improving the culture. Sometimes you know, that it's something in my career over the last 1516 years that I've been charged with doing more than once, we need to change the culture, you and your team need to change the culture. I can't. I can't if you say that, that one of our values is, you know, growth and development. But so that's the culture that I'm pushing, you know, but that leadership at the floor level, the frontline level, is focused on call volume in a call center or like customer time in contact with it's not about getting that training and that's not a priority. How can I I can't lead all of the teams you know, whatever that that priority is happens every minute of every day. Culture is not an initiative, you know, the culture is. So in order to change the culture, you have to change what you do. Right. And, you know, I feel like in some of these scenarios where that is there is that mismatch of priorities, especially in those like frontline type jobs, the culture is we care about our people that are the most important thing, like, you know, and then it's you need to work six days, or you need to get XYZ done, but there's no overtime available to do within or your hours are being cut.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:41
It's it starts at the top, however, it has to, it has to be believed, and it has to be shown all the way down, trickled down. And if one person is out of misalignment, and is, oh, well, you didn't finish this, you have to stay late, that throws off, you know, absolutely everything, if the whole idea is work life balance, the whole idea is taking it absolutely it has to it has to start from the very top of holding whatever that value is true to heart.
 
Kellie Commons  41:19
And then it has to be 100% Correct. You know, and meet any, you know, problem is any deviation from expected performance, right. And, and as leaders throughout the organization, the accountability for those cultural initiatives, whatever it is, that we're focusing on, has to be absolute. Because it just like having kids, right, like the first time, the first time there's a chink in that armor, you know, that if this is our the first time there's a glimmer of light through that, where you fail to enforce it. It's nothing but arrows through that tiny hole, and you've lost all accountability. And culture can't be something where I like slink out of my HR cave, and deliver as a mandate, you know, that this is who we are now, right? And that's kind of that my hump back and cook up some next thing that we're gonna, you know, you i You lose credibility, if it's not in lockstep with what our practices that everyone is held accountable to. And that has stemmed from the feedback from those line level employees like, this is the place that we want to work, and what does that balance between what we need to achieve production, financials, performance, whatever that is, where's that balance between the business that we have to do? And the business that we have to run? Right, are the people that do it?
 
Leighann Lovely  42:45
And, and that's why there's teams of people who I mean, outside, there's companies that all they do is they go into other companies to help completely, you know, change culture, and they work with people at every single level, all the way down to the manufacturing floor. Because one person does not have the ability to train to change the culture at a company and I, and I love that when you you said that, they come to you. And they say, okay, change the culture of the company. Really? What power does one person have? None. One person has zero power at a company, unless it's a company of one, right? Or maybe two,
 
Kellie Commons  43:31
The idea you have that, you know, culture isn't about posters are happy hour or a pool table, or you know, what, it's the culture leads to the pool table and the happy hour, you know, culture isn't mandatory fun, it's organic, fun,
 
Leighann Lovely  43:47
Right? If you have buy in from your entire organization, you then have created the culture. And in that call, and I'm not saying that you've created a good culture, right? I'm saying that the culture you've created the culture that is now if you have the organization all flowing in one way or the other. That is your culture. Yep, good or bad recurring, correct. In order to change that, if you're trying to change it for the better, you have to get buy in from your entire organization to be flowing in one way or another. One person does not have the ability to do that. It's just you need every,
 
Kellie Commons  44:29
or even one department. It's not like we released all of our HR minions into the wild and shift this you know, it would be like it would be like goldfish turning a boat, like there's just not enough that you're picturing it right? Like and how many goldfish you would need to do that. You know, but that's that's the thing, but if we get all of the fish in the whole place, we can turn the boat Yep. But our you know, the the two 612 fish that are HR to Depending on the size of the organization, right, just don't have the juice. And, you know, I understand working in HR, the joke is, you know, I'll make it myself at this point, like, here comes the fun police, you know, like, HR historically just doesn't have in most organizations doesn't have the street cred.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:19
Well, and unfortunately, HR has become the, the way that the employees look at HR has become up here comes the, you know, the person who's the bad guy, right? The Yeah, when, and I've said this numerous times throughout this, you know, throughout my podcast, nobody started out when, you know, again, you know, I have my degree and with an emphasis in HR, I did not start going to school for human resource management, with the idea that I wanted to be the guard dog for a company, I originally went, because I wanted to be a voice for the people. But it changed human resource in 2008, there was a definite change in, it was a shift, because we used to have huge teams of HR. And we were able to be a voice for the people, because you had, you know, I was on a team of like, seven people. And then I was laid off. And then when, when the economy bounced back, you would have at that same company that had seven HR people, there was one trying to do everything. How was that the person supposed to try to be a voice for the people when they couldn't even keep their head above water in order to get payroll done, benefits done. And, you know, all the other stuff that went along with being HR, right. And we I know that we're trying to get back to that, where that HR person can be a voice for the people, they can be a resource, they can help them. But because a lot of people saw HR now in a different light, it's been a struggle to get back to that. And so you're right, the joke, you know, I, I became the hated HR lady ever below. Here she comes. And I'm like, you know, what?
 
Kellie Commons  47:16
Never good news. Right? It was right? We're never bringing good news,
 
Leighann Lovely  47:19
Right? Sign this do this dot, you know, and it was, it's so yes, HR. You know, a lot of people don't want HR around. But they're
 
Kellie Commons  47:33
And it's interesting that you say like that your degree, you have an emphasis in human resources. My degree is in Hospitality Management, my career was pursued to serve. And, you know, bringing that into human resources, you know, my responsibility was to serve customers, clients, guests. And I was educated with the ideology that whoever does the most for your business, owns your business, runs your business, and that's who you're responsible to serve. So my customer is the employee. Because, you know, there's the old adage, right, like, if you take care of your employees, you never have to worry about the customers, right? It's this, you know, if I take care of our internal customers, if I ensure that we're serving that need, the standards get met, the product goes out, like it's that intrinsic motivation, where people do feel engaged and cared about and served. You know, I've had folks say, I've been in my role now about eight weeks. And I've had a couple of people surprised that I know, on site as many of the people that I know. And remember their stories, and it really is that like front desk of a hotel thing, where it's like that you need that relationship. You know, the same thing learning a roomful of students for me now as quickly as I can, because I need them. Just like a guest in a hotel, just like an employee in my, my organization. I need them to know that they're my priority, right? And now, if you told me three times about your sick kid, and I don't remember, none of our relationship, from your perspective feels authentic. Because to you, it's one to one. To me, there's 500 of you. But that doesn't matter. It's like when your server comes up to a table and fest, sorry, it took so long we're short staffed today. I don't care. Right? You know, because this is the only experience that I'm having today as an employee with one HR person or as a guest with one server. And in that service mindset is so often lost.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:46
And that's what makes you are different. Because you care, and you take time to show them that you care because you That means the world, to your employees, when you remember the details when you remember what matters to them. Because it's it's never about for your employees, what it comes down to, is how you made them feel. Nobody remembers the specific conversation, you know, six months from now, ultimately, everything in life comes down to how you made them feel at that moment. And when they have a sick kid at home, and they come to you, and they say, I've got to go take care of that. If you make them feel guilty for the fact they have to leave work, they will remember that forever. If you tell them, I completely understand that you gotta go take care of this, go take care of it, don't worry about anything, and you make them feel validated. And you make them feel like nothing matters other than them taking care of their family, at the end of the day, they're going to remember that you made them feel okay about it. And I employers, they, they're so blind to that, if I feel guilty that I have to go take care of my family, or I feel guilty that I have to walk away from work for something. Because it's a personal thing for me. I remember how my employer made me feel when you remember a birthdate or you remember something personal about employee, they remember how you made them feel. It is so wildly important.
 
Kellie Commons  51:40
You know, as being that that HR fulcrum and still needing to manage the costs and interests of the business, because they're, you know, we do have that responsibility. I think, in those situations where you want to be that employee advocate or go the extra mile or give the thing and you can't, or there's a limitation, having enough respect for members of the workforce across the spectrum to have that conversation around the why is so important. Or when there is a corrective action or policy action that has to be taken, not just delivering that, you know, because that's what the HR ogre does. When she slinks out from underneath the bridge, you want to have that conversation around. Beyond the policy. This is why the policy, or this is why I have to say no, or I do want you to take the time. But understand these, please do take the time. But here's how it impacts the attendance policy. Family is first. Absolutely. But I want you to be prepared that this is the conversation that we have to have right like going that. And that so much of the struggle that I've seen in the difference between white collar work and blue collar work is that folks are more willing or comfortable having those holistic conversations with white collar workers, or will have a conversation with a blue collar worker at a white collar level about something which is worse than not sharing the information in the first place. meet people where they are and give them holistic information.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:21
Yep. I yeah, I totally agree. And wish we could continue this conversation. But we are coming to time and I want to fit. Yes. I want to ask you the question of the season. So what would you change about your job or the practices that people have in your role? Yeah, if you if you wanted to change anything, or if you could?
 
Kellie Commons  53:46
I think honestly, we right. Before the question this season, we really touched on that a lot. I think that the thing I would want to change for a lot of HR practitioners is understanding the importance of taking the information that your decisions choices, actions, the company's decision decisions are based on and bringing that information to the team in the way that they can accept it. It is dangerous, especially the longer you're an HR practitioner at a high level. You forget the lingo, the language that you use your comfort level with the information, it's so second nature. That where we where we can control the culture is to have meaningful conversations with people about the things that impact them in a way that they understand. You know, open enrollment is always something that sticks out to me in hospitality and manufacturing. I know a lot of highly educated white collar people who have no idea how their health insurance works. Hmm. So if that's the case, the speed with which and the casual nature or sometimes with which that information is rolled out to folks that may have even less exposure to that information is a great example. Like the things that we just gloss over because we're so comfortable with the information and not understanding. It's like if you have the general manager of a restaurant, train the brand new server, or the brand new busser, it came up in catering, you know, you tell the new person like the shapers, what's the Shaffer? How do I light it? You know, what does that mean? All right. So really meeting people where they are with information is something that I would love to see shifted among a lot of colleagues that have to work across different age groups across different experience levels, across different, like technological abilities, is something that comes up a lot and just having practitioners reconsider where the workforce is to deliver information in a way that it can be received more completely.
 
Leighann Lovely  56:08
That is an awesome answer. And I completely agree. You are clearly extremely passionate about what you do. And I thank you so much for coming on today. Kelly, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Kellie Commons  56:24
LinkedIn is definitely the easiest way to track me down. I am active on LinkedIn, Kellie Commons, Kellie with an I E. But also I am reachable at kcommons@Gehlfoods.com, I love to talk HR almost at an embarrassing level. So I'm always happy to connect with colleagues and HR folks in other disciplines really to just kind of get to build my viewpoint of what's happening so that I can be of service.
 
Leighann Lovely  56:55
Excellent. Again, Kelly, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. And that's why I love talking to you because I am an HR geek as well.
 
Kellie Commons  57:03
I love it. It was my pleasure. Happy holidays. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:10
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Kellie -
 
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/kellie-commons
 
E-mail – kcommons@Gehlfoods.com
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, hr, hospitality, employees, culture, folks, understand, job, conversation, organization, role, bartender, workforce, paths, years, person, manufacturing, employers, students, industry
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

The Importance of Networking and The True Benefit

Don’t miss this amazing conversation with Kristin Gupta, a professional networker, recruiter, and connector of people. Kristin is the founder of Defining Leaders a place for people to come together to collaborate and connect as people in order to grow as leaders. Kristin saw a need and was able to fill that gap. Join our conversation as we talk about the art of networking and the importance of genuine relationships. 
 
Leighann Lovely  00:20
HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
Welcome to another season of Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation. I'm so excited to have Kristin Gupta join me today. She has been an executive recruiter for over a decade now. And if there's one thing she has certainly learned through her time in the industry, the best way to find great opportunity is through networking. As a recruiter, a network enthusiast a coach, a speaker and a business culture fantastic. She loves growing her network and helping others do so as well. As an executive recruiter specializing in HR leadership. She has the opportunity to impact companies by helping them find their people leader. The person that keeps the ship moving takes care of employees and ensures business can be done because the right people are in the right seats with what they need to get the job done. As a speaker, coach networker and connection enthusiast, she believes that we can enjoy what we do it work and home, and we can find fulfilment in our careers, not just work for a paycheck. She believes that we all need to continually work on being better leaders, and creating a community of leaders. That is why in 2020, she created Defining Leaders, a community with the purpose to connect leaders and allow them to know one another. On a more personal basis. This group is about learning from each other. And a place where people can collaborate. they curate topics that inspire and drive one another to beat the best version of themselves. They meet on Wednesday at noon on Zoom to share their thoughts on leadership, this platform has become a place for growth as they believe together as better Anyone is welcome to join if you want to be a better leader, and this is going to be a fun conversation. Welcome Kristin, I am so excited to talk with you today. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
 
Kistin Gupta  03:05
You too Leighann. You know, we've known each other's podcasts for so long. And we've known each other for so long. And I we keep we kept bumping back into each other which I loved because people kept saying we add you have to talk to Kristen and Kristen, you have to talk to Leanne. So now that we're finally on this together, it's it's like okay, this is finally happening. And it should have happened a while ago.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:28
Yes, it is very exciting.
 
Kistin Gupta  03:30
Yeah, so I am also a recruiter like Leighann, and my specialty is in the HR space. So I help companies, I call it my day job. And then I have a fly by night Batman job that my kids call it. But in my day job, I work for a recruitment firm called LHH, where recruit for HR professionals, especially at the executive level. And then at night, not actually at night, but also during the day, I helped to develop people because one of the things that I noticed is that so many of our companies don't have the inner capability to really work on developing leaders within their company, especially in EQ. We work a lot on EQ in our defining Leaders Group. Unfortunately, not everybody's available to come and meet us on Wednesdays at noon. So we decided to create a podcast with some of the learnings that we have from those defining leader sessions. So we talk about things that are tough, we get deep we get vulnerable and talk about things that really matter to developing yourself professionally for all
 
Leighann Lovely  04:38
That's awesome that's in your right not all too often. We don't spend enough time working on ourselves. When when we need to we need to continuously try to level up and try to and not just try to level up it's it's more sometimes it It's more just taking a step back and taking a look, you know, on a mental health or on a, you know, just leveling your own brain out to take a deep breath and make sure that you're doing everything that you need to do to keep yourself sane, I guess would be the word right.
 
Kistin Gupta  05:21
Even can be actually talks about this quite a bit in in his seventh habit, which is sharpen the saw. And how many people don't take the time to practice the seventh habit? Because they're too busy cutting down trees with adult blade. Right, right. Yeah, how often are we so busy cutting down trees with adult blade that we don't take that second to sit and sharpen our saw, and then realize how much faster we can cut down those trees. But I'm too busy to do it. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  05:50
You know what I say that to my husband all the time will recommend. And I bring this up because you know, I see your little one unit running behind you and my little one, right before we started talking. I say this all the time, when we're struggling with behavioral things with my child, my husband will say hey, I listened to this awesome podcast about parenting and I'll say, Oh, I just don't have time for that.
 
Kistin Gupta  06:17
And why don't we have time for it? Because we're not listening to the podcast about parenting.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:21
Right? And then, you know, he looks at me and he goes, you know, as she's acting out, and he goes, you know, the podcasts that I listened to, and I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay. And really, really, it's, it's extremely important. Like, in order to be a completely whole person, you need to you need to take care of your yourself in all aspects, professionally, mental, mental wellness, as well as the home life in order to be a whole person. Right. I mean, it's so yeah, I mean, that's, it's we too often forget to what you were saying sharpen the saw. And it's not just professionally, it's it's everywhere, but definitely professionally. So. And I'm, I am a lifelong learner. I love to continue to learn new things. But it's, it is often that sometimes they forget to take a deep look at myself in the mirror and you realize, especially when you work remote, oh my god, I haven't taken a shower in two days. Did I just say that out loud? Okay, moving on from that. Yeah.
 
Kistin Gupta  07:37
And you're talking about two days, sometimes. It can be up to a week. First day that I took a shower last week,
 
Leighann Lovely  07:48
what do you what do you love it? Was it? Oh, that's a week. You know, I was talking to my brother the other day. And he said the same thing. He goes, my wife will look at me and go. When was the last time you changed? or shower?
 
Kistin Gupta  08:05
I think this is a COVID issue though, too, because so many of us in professional roles. We started working from home and when you work from home and you don't go anywhere. It happens, right? Our dress code is leggings and T shirts. Yep. Instead of what we used to wear to the office. I don't think any of those clothes exists in my closet now that we've done the purge.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:27
By Yeah, all of my business suits moved into the spare bedroom. And then slowly, I needed space and I went wind do I wear it? Like, do I ever wear these? I'm like, I think I need to get rid of them. And this slowly, they just kept like, Oh, this one's cute. Maybe I should keep it in eventually. I think I have like three or four just just in case when I mean, I used to have an entire wardrobe. Right? Exactly. You know, like a month's worth of business suits. Exactly. Yeah. So much wasted money. So
 
Kistin Gupta  09:08
go ahead, man. What were you gonna say?
 
Leighann Lovely  09:11
Well, I was just gonna say so why don't why don't we talk a little bit about you know, what you do for your, your, your day job. And then we'll talk a little bit more about your your night job you're fly by. You're so funny because I was Batman job. Yes, you can. Yes. So, you know, obviously the recruiting the hiring world has, like you said, you know, pandemic, everything, you know, things have drastically changed. And if I were to go back to when I first started in this industry, obviously things change year by year. We're used to it slowly changing. But we've experienced, you know, just change that sped up a great deal. because of what we experienced during the pandemic, what are you seeing?
 
Kistin Gupta  10:08
In 2021, one of the things that we saw was this uptick in hiring that was expected by economists for a really long time. And that expectation was because baby boomers are starting to retire in droves. And the next generations to take over rule, literally less people than those that were retiring. So the backfill replacements were less than the job openings. And the economists had been warning us for a while that this was going, that this was coming that this was coming in 2020 Through it all for a loop. I think that that was a really interesting time for a lot of people, which caused some wage gap issues, when those that were moving, were asking and able to get 20, 30, 40% bumps in order to move and sometimes expecting it. When students that were graduating from school were expecting, instead of what you and I maybe graduated with maybe 50 to $60,000, outside of school, and that was a really good wage now demanding 70 and getting it right when hiring from the from university or from school. And then 2022 had been a continuation of that. But now here's what's interesting is, there's also massive layoffs happening in the entire country. And in the past, these massive layoffs have always happened. And a lot of people don't realize this. But it's different now. Because we know about it, because it's publicized. And it's not just publicized by the news. It's publicized by the people that are getting laid off. And a lot of us, like candidates especially are feeling this sense of uncertainty. Why should I leave something that I feel secure? And that I feel sure in for something that I might get laid off? Or what is this industry really going through? Right? By the way, here's just a word word of advice, their massive layoffs have always happened, right? It's just more public now. And you're hearing it over and over and over again, from all these different places, there is still still a talent shortage, that's not going away anytime in the near future, the next five to 10 years minimum, we're going to be facing this. And so me and you and I are very much in need. And in demand recruiters are needed right now. And I hope for those of you that are recruiters and wondering, like, yes, we're very much needed right now. But also, there are less people for the jobs that are out there, even when we hear this bad news. So it's worth keeping your ear open. It's worth looking at what else is out there. And it's also worth seeing if there might be a better culture or if there might be a better opportunity for creating it internally.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:01
So that's what I'm saying. And it's it's so interesting that you you know, you're completely right, layoffs have I mean, businesses, depending on depending on the economy. And it's funny, because even during the pandemic, there were some businesses that thrived. They were hiring like crazy. They, they were thriving, they did amazing, they did better during the pandemic than they had ever done. So no matter what the state of the economy, there are always going to be businesses that are hiring, it may not be something that's in your area of expertise. Now, I'm not saying that the pandemic didn't cause, you know, mostly mayhem and mass quantities of people to to lose their jobs, because that's what it I mean, that's what it did. We shut down we literally shut down the world. But even during that time, there were still businesses that had no choice but to continue to run, because they were essential. Businesses, right. And so you make a valid point about layoffs continuing to, you know, they've always happened. And, yeah, people just didn't notice. But this is the world of social media. This is the world of pretty much laying your entire life out on. Online. We know.
 
Kistin Gupta  14:19
More importantly than us judging ourselves against that social media and having it be our truth, when it's only a partial truth. And so many of us don't like it's hard to disconnect ourselves and realize that that's just a partial truth and not the full truth. We judge whether or not we should look at for a job against massive layoffs happening in California. Does that really affect you here are massive layoffs happening in Texas, and in a different industry than yours, right? Not really going to affect how you look at things, but it does affect how you perceive right So I found that to be really impactful is to understand this is my perception right now, because this is all I can see.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:08
Right. And, and when you say here, here for us is, is Wisconsin. So you, you know, information is is only as good as, you know, the whole picture, I guess, I mean is probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But it's it's, it's all relative to where you're at I mean, where you're at if you're getting information from Yeah, the state of Wisconsin, but you live in California or vice versa. It it doesn't mean anything unless you're, you're getting the whole picture. Absolutely.
 
Kistin Gupta  15:44
Right. One other point that I want to make here, too, is some some of our listeners might be thinking because they're working in their day job, and they're not happy in their day job right now, as by the way that's true for 80% of people, unfortunately, is that they're not happy in their day job, because they're not getting the development, they're not getting that fulfillment that they really want to get. And the expectation is often if I leave this job, the grass must be greener on the other side. Or if I were to find a different company, it must be better there. Sometimes we actually have to look internal a little bit and see, how can I make this better. And so one of the things that we talk a lot about in our leadership development courses, is victimhood is when you look at everything that's going on around you, and saying it's because of that, or it's because of them, we we played the Day card a lot. They should be better at this. We're in the face right now of your interviews, or in our reviews right now. And a lot of our companies, and I put up some polls and that type of thing. And what a lot of our and a poll that we put out there is is the annual review, keep robust? Is it something that we should continue to do? Or is it something that we should get rid of? And 72% of respondents said, Yes, we need to keep it. But 46% of respondents said we need to keep it but it needs to be better. When I asked the question, how do we make it better? 2% of people responded. So how do we make it better? Let's not say they anymore, right? Let's, I can do this? Right? Once we take that power, we'll find something interesting. And that is that our job does get better. Your relationships get better, that we find fulfillment, as long as we continue to play that they card will always be the victim, the grass will never be greener, no matter how many times we move.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:47
Right. And, and we also have a generation of of individuals. You know who you are, that, that that believe, you know, that they believe they're entitled to it's the entitlement, I'm entitled to this. And they should be giving this and providing this to me. And, unfortunately, because of and I don't want to say it's the entire I hate grouping. I really dislike grouping an entire generation. There's there's always exceptions to the rule. But for the most part, the way that you know, certain generations have been deemed there has been a group now that have, you know, that entitlement piece, and part of this whole cultural shift, because of the pandemic and companies realizing that it's time for them and try and figure out how to say this without saying they are them or but no, it's
 
Kistin Gupta  19:02
It's a hard language shift.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:04
Yeah. But it's time time for all of us to start putting in effort to change the way that we are at work, right. And it takes it it takes, obviously senior leadership to to really start to implement that. But it takes buy in from everybody. I think the newest generation coming in is going to be the true advocates for that. I mean, they they truly are the pushers of that.
 
Kistin Gupta  19:38
I'm glad that you brought up the generational piece, man because we've done some study on this as a group as well. And it's actually the reason why defining leaders, the podcast and the leadership development group that I run continues to exist today. And that is this generational gap in a way and we talked about this When when we talked about recruiting and what the world of HR looks like today and this need for talent, why is this talent gap here? I get this question I'm sure you do every day. Why can't I find anyone? Why does no one want to go back to work? Or Why does no one want to work? That's not actually the case. There are a lot of people that want to work. But the truth is, there's less workers than people retiring right now, literally less numbers of people that are in the workforce today than were in the workforce yesterday. And therefore, there's a gap. And economists have known this happening for a while. But therefore, there is a gap in how many employees to fill seats,
 
Leighann Lovely  20:46
Wasn't there? What is there, like average household number of babies being born is like 1.4, something,
 
Kistin Gupta  20:54
Two and a half, six years ago, right? And before that,
 
Leighann Lovely  20:57
it was like 3.5, or something like that, or 3.8.
 
Kistin Gupta  21:03
My grandparents farming age, it was like 3.5, and my grandparents filled right with 10. Growth household, right. But there are less babies being born today. Right? Then you are born before. And we're 30 years after certain things happen in the world. Already? Actually, no, we're beyond that. After certain things happen in the world where less babies could be born. Right? So what's happening is, less seats are able to be filled, because there's less people to fill them. Right. A couple other things are happening. The baby boomers that are retiring felt lucky to have a job and they had loyalty, not just because they're a generation known for loyalty. But because there was more competition for spots being filled. Right. In other words, they were lucky to have their job and were less likely to move because it was a higher risk move. The next generations after that are more likely to move because their seats open. Right? We all know that seat hog are in the game of it's not merry go round. But what it what does that game where you always take the away. Chair, musical chairs, musical chairs, that like sits in every single seat, and maybe they're gonna win the game. That's unfortunately, the baby boomer generation to degree is they never get out of their seat because they're afraid that if I get out, I won't find another seat. The three generations after that don't have that fear. Because that seats still exists.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:43
Right? So what's wildly interesting is that there was a time when we implemented the, you know, the AI the, you know, technology came and baby boomers, and I'm actually I don't know, if it was baby boomers or it was baby boomers started getting extremely nervous about the idea that robots were going to take away their jobs. And there was going to be no work left for humans that that. Right. Do you I mean, do you remember hearing about obviously, I was not. I was really little. I was really little at this time. But it was this this huge, like fear based, oh, my gosh, technology is going to take away all of our jobs. And what happened was the opposite. It created more jobs, because now we have to have somebody to create the technology write the code, in order to create all of these different things. So we've actually created more jobs with less people.
 
Kistin Gupta  22:46
Enlisted for many years to the cotton gin, simple machines, that type of thing. I'm sure there was always about every generation looked at the next and looked at every single technology advancement. And we're like this is going to take away jobs, right? What it often does not always, but what it often does is it creates better quality, higher level jobs for people where you might need a little bit more training, you might need a little bit more development in order to get into these skilled jobs, like CNC machinists, which are really hard to find. So if you're looking for a field to go into CNC machining would be right field.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:38
And that brings up another thing is that for the longest time, it was especially in during the time that I was coming up or growing up, it was you have to go to college, you have to get a four year degree, otherwise you're not going to be able to find a job. So that created another gap in our economy, which was the the To the machinists, I mean all of the the, the labor gap right? So now you have all of these these parents pushing their kids to you have to go to college, or you're not going to be able to find a good paying job. And I don't know that people realize that a, a highly skilled CNC machinist makes a very, very good living. And if you I mean the other thing that I truly believe was a major mistake is that they got rid of, you know, in, not internships apprenticeships, apprenticeships, apprenticeships now there are companies out there still doing apprenticeships, but very, very few other countries, they still do apprenticeships. This country.
 
Kistin Gupta  25:52
I love this story, Leighann, I'm going to bring it up all the time on so many different podcasts. Adrienne Warner is the one that shared this story with me. And he was an engineering executive exiting GE at the time. He talked about a UK company and I can't remember the name of the company right now, who hires 150 interns a year into their internship program. By the way, they only convert two of those interns into employees. Wow, whatever. What do they do with the other 148? They have an internal placement system where they find positions for them in their vendors, companies? Oh my gosh, this has existed for over 100 years. That's amazing reasons why we won the World War was because they could come up with better quality planes faster. Why? Because when your supply chain makes sense, it's easier to get things out the door. Those of you in supply chain, we know what supply chain issues do to us today. Anybody tried to buy a car lately? Right? But when your supply chain makes sense, and when you have people internally in your supply chain that are big fans of your company, things go smoother. Right? So again, a great resource here is are you developing people? Are you developing your vendors? Are you developing your acolytes the people that really look up to what you do as an organization?
 
Leighann Lovely  27:23
You know, and that's interesting that you bring that up, are you developing your acolytes are you developing that is, you know, this, the number one way to damage your organization is to have somebody that you somebody at your company that that is mistreated, that is out there, bad talking your company, right? You're You're destroying your brand, you're, you want to hire people and keep people become the amazing brand. That company, I guarantee had no problem filling 150 spots for that internship program. Because, in turn, they turned around and got those people jobs. And then they were I mean, talked about nonstop about oh my gosh, how great is this company, I'm sure that they had massive loyalty by their vendors, they had massive loyalty by every single person they worked at, simply by running that program. And what a benefit to that company for having those. They have people who are working for them and learning from them. You want to create an amazing culture, treat your people awesome. And they will be out in the world, selling your product or singing your praises, and becoming acolytes for your company. And I don't, I don't understand why companies don't get this, you treat your employees like shit and they're going to be out there bad talking you and you're going to lose customers. And it is way harder to make your brand or reestablish or fix your brand than it is to just keep it going well from the beginning, it's a lot less expensive.
 
Kistin Gupta  29:12
So this is both from a company and a personal perspective to right. I want to tell you a little bit of a story about myself here. I wanted to specialize in executive level recruitment. I've been with my company now for 11 years. And I wanted to bring my level up from recruiting for everything like a generalist recruiter to recruiting sea level executives primarily. And so one of the things that I decided to do in order to do that was to help my executive level candidates land well, even if I couldn't place them, what do they need to do to land well, and I also know this and so do you, Lian. Often the best way to land well is through networking, and most people suck at it. Really, really suck at it. So why don't I introduce my candidate? As to each other, and they'll help each other and then they'll land. And there'll be what my husband lovingly refers to as Christian knights, or people that are acolytes of Christian Gupta, right. And so I started this group of my executive level candidates networking with one another. And then guess what happened. COVID happened, that we started this in March of 2020. Oh, God moment happened. I looked at the world and I looked at what was going on. And I was like, I have this great group. I can't just limit this to executives, I need to help people, because this is happening to everyone in the world today. And I could look at the world and say, this sucks, or I could do something about it, I want to do something about it. And so I opened up this group, I created two different levels, one for executives, because it does make sense for executives to network with executives, and then one for everyone. And that every one group turned into the thing that I spend the majority of my time and energy and effort on today, because it's so beautiful. But we had over 1000 people in 2020, come to one of our networking events, wow, 1000 people, and over 900 of them landed. Wow. The other account 100 landed in 2021. So 100% of them landed. But we had some people come through their land, that were looking for a job for one year for two years that were looking for a job for eight months that weren't sure how they were going to put food on the on the table for their family, and found some solutions through that. But also, what has that done for me, since it's paid off in spades. It didn't do it for what it could do to pay off. But I saw what was wrong. And I decided to do something about it. Right? How often do we see what's wrong? And then just see what's wrong, or complaint. Right, right. But you can do something little about things to which you and I are both doing one to this podcast that you do. Getting the word out there letting HR know that you're not alone in this, yes, we're all facing this too. You're not in this alone. Having that sense of community is so important. Right? Right. And for me getting my candidates together, and they refer me to business all the time I barely have to sell at this point is, is beautiful,
 
Leighann Lovely  32:19
Right. And that's, I think that you hit it on the head, the most important thing. And it's not just, it's not just HR, it's not just in any business is the community that you surround yourself with, whether that be just the community at your individual company, but it I think that's what we all are truly looking for in a job, right. And you hope that when you accept a job, that that is that that's going to become your people, that's going to become your community. And by the way, you gave me goosebumps when you were telling me that story because it's it's beautiful. It's absolutely amazing what you what you do and how you help people. But the goal that we all I think most people I shouldn't say we all most people have is to find their, you know, find the right bus, and then hopefully find the right seat on that bus. And then have an awesome community of people that we can be part of. And for us serial networkers, our community of people or, you know, the people that we choose to, to surround ourselves with, you know, I have a wide variety of people that I mean, they're definitely my people I fit in I'm, I refer business, they refer business, and I've found my home with that community. And don't get me wrong, I have a variety of different communities within. But, I mean
 
Kistin Gupta  33:59
One of our presidents have rightly quoted this, okay, I'm gonna wrongly quote it because I don't remember which president said it, but don't ask what your country can do for you. But ask what you can do for your country. The thing that people look at wrong about networking, is they expect their network to work for them before they realize I have to work for my network. And so it's reverse. It's reverse thinking here.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:24
Yes, absolutely. And I, I was told when I first started networking, go in there and get as many business cards as you can, and don't come back out until you have a sale. And when I first started networking, I was like, God, I hate this. This is like the worst thing that I have to do. I don't know what I'm doing. I was I was just, I was like a fish out of water. I was floundering around just running around a room handing out my business card to trying to do my 22nd 32nd elevator pitch and I'm like, Why is nobody wanted to Talk to me. And then. So one day, I just got myself a drink. And I just stood at the bar and somebody approached me and they started talking to me. And I was just like, Screw it. I'm just gonna sit here and socialize. And all of the sudden, I started making friends. And I'm like, oh, like, Okay, fine. I'm just gonna make some friends today. And it started to dawn on me that
 
Kistin Gupta  35:21
That's not working.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:24
This is this is actually reading and writing. Right now, people want to actually set up a follow up meeting to learn more about what I do and who I am. And this is obviously years ago. And it dawned on me that maybe I was told to you know how to do this the wrong way. And so I completely changed the approach. And once I figured it out, and once I stepped into me, because it took me a while to truly and I think some professionals, it takes a little while for you to truly step into your whole self, right. And with, with the onset of the pandemic, I think there were a lot of people that just finally stepped into who they truly were. And once I did that, it was a game changer. Authenticity is a game changer. People want to know, you people want relationships, people buy from who they like, people ask advice from who they trust. And I know that people come to you, they trust, they like you. They come to me. That is the whole entire difference. But I also ask nothing of them ever,
 
Kistin Gupta  36:49
Right? Not doing something because the expectation is I will receive something, it's doing something for the sake of helping someone. Right, right? Again, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country right now you can do for your country, therefore your country will pay you. Right? What's in what's so interesting is when you do that fully, and you do something for others, you feel fulfillment, before you even get anything out of it, right? Because the giving of the gift is the thing that makes you feel good right now is not even the receiving but it's the giving in which that feeling is there.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:33
And I found myself more frequently trying to find ways to help my network. Yeah, because I'm at home. What if I could connect those two people? Would that make sense? No, probably not. And I'm like, why am I going? Why am I going out of my way to do this? And it's like, because it becomes almost an addiction of, of how can I help more? How can I do more.
 
Kistin Gupta  38:03
I still remember Leighann, and I'm so grateful that I did this, because it came back to me years later, even the first person that I set up with a mentor. So Shane Bonner, is a wonderful human being. And I did not know him well. But when I met him, he was the president at a company. He'd only been there three months. And I was helping him with his HR need. And I asked for a tour of the manufacturing floor, when I'm helping him with an HR manager that's sitting in a nice office next day is when he's like, Oh, that's a wonderful idea. Idea. Let me take you on a walk. And he knew the first name and something about every single employee on that floor. And I was impressed, because he'd only been there a short number of months. And you could tell that he's out there every single day. And you can also tell by the way his employees interacted with him, that he's not out there as the president lording over you. He's out there as How can I help you as a servant leader, and it stuck with me? So a year later, when I met someone like him that was burgeoning in their career, he was a business unit manager within manufacturing. And I was like, You remind me of Shane. I made the introduction. I've never done this before. But I was like, I feel like I need to introduce the two of you. And so I did. And he Shane mentored this individual for a year. Oh, wow. Three years later, his wife joined my board of directors to run one of the executive level groups that I run, and she provided so much great insight. She became a speaker for our organization. And it was just such a great opportunity to see how it pays back in dividends. On the back end, did I enter into that relationship? Knowing that this is going to happen, no. Did it feel good to see the fruits of that labor years later?
 
Leighann Lovely  40:06
Absolutely. Right. Right. And that has happened to me, throughout the years where, you know, a connection happens, where you're just like, oh my gosh, if I would not have done this, this never would have happened. And it's amazing. We live in a, in a huge world, a gigantic world. But I truly, truly, truly believe. I guess to put it simply, I believe in karma 100%, what you do, does come back to you one way or another, the people you run into today, you have no idea how that or how you influence them, could eventually come back to influence you a year from now 10 years from now. So hey, just think about the next time you're having an interaction with somebody, you know, is it compassion? Is it empathy that you need to remember to use because you have no idea one, what's going on in their lives. And now I'm kind of putting on my HR hat. You know, when you're dealing with employees to you know, you know, be careful, you have no idea what's going on in their lives, and you have no idea what the future holds on an interaction that happens today, and how that might influence your life down the line. And I've had it happen multiple times where something that happened years ago comes back and I'm like, wow, how could this possibly have I've come full circle like this. And that, that's amazing. It's an amazing story. It's just, but that that is such as the world and it's, I shouldn't say it's such as the world, because I believe that you have you have the power to influence your surroundings. And I just, I truly believe in being a genuine good person. You know, there are there are assholes out there that we have to, you know, and they're found out but you know, I truly believe that people who who run their lives and live their lives with true good intent. They have good things happen.
 
Kistin Gupta  42:30
It's easy when life is easy. Yeah. When things are. It's real hard when things aren't good. Right? Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:37
I know. But at the, into the
 
Kistin Gupta  42:39
Victimhood, it's so easy to slip back into. It's all their faults, and now owning our truth, and not owning. So we're not saying that this is easy, no,
 
Leighann Lovely  42:49
but usually hard for me is the other way. But having people like you, and networks, makes it easier to stay accountable. And be reminded
 
Kistin Gupta  43:04
In our community to remind us.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:07
Yes, Oh, God, yes. What Christian, we are coming to time, if somebody wanted to reach out to you for help with employment or help with filling jobs, or they wanted to learn more about your podcast. How would they go about doing that?
 
43:24
There aren't a whole lot of Kristin Gupta's out there in the world. Yet. When I got married to my husband, I was the second Kristin Gupta that I could find when you googled it when I googled myself, so you can find my LinkedIn profile. You can also email me at Kristen that gupta@lhh.com l H H stands for Lee Hecht, Harrison and Kristen by the way I spelled the right way. Which is k r i s t i n for those of you that spell en ny n and every other which way you're okay to we are all the same family. That's Kristin.Gupta@lhh.com. And for more info on our Defining Leaders Group, you can go to Kristinadvising.com.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:17
Thank you. Excellent. And I have one more question Question of the season and you did not get a preview of this question. I am sorry I normally give previous. So the question that I am asking everybody this season if there is one thing that you could change about your job, if anything, what would it be?
 
Kistin Gupta  44:39
I love my job and love what I do. That's a really good question then and I will say I wish I'd had this sooner.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:51
That's awesome. I absolutely love it. I absolutely love it. So for you out there who are considering jumping into a recruitment job. Hey, maybe the grass is greener awesome. Kristen, thank you so very much for talking with me today.
 
Kistin Gupta  45:09
Thank you. Yeah, great conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:12
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day
 
Contact Info -
 
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/kristin-gupta
 
E-mail - Kristin.Gupta@lhh.com
 
Website - kristinadvising.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, company, job, pandemic, business, talk, massive layoffs, employees, years, hr, gupta, executive, happened, kristin, acolytes, hiring, generations, world, podcast, leaders

Episode 24 - Leslie O’Connell - Empowering Greatness in Others

Season 2 Finale  
After 17 years at the same company, Leslie found herself looking for a new path, she is now the Founder and Principal of Team OC3, LLC where she is an executive coach working with C-suite executives and senior leaders. She is also an author, blogger and so much more. This was an amazing conversation with a brilliant, strong woman dedicated to empowering greatness in others.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling; our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:08
Leslie O'Connell ignites the purpose, potential and performance of leaders and teams. As founder and principal of Team OC three. Leslie is an executive coach, communications counselor, and catalyst. She works with C suite executives, senior leaders and rising leaders of progressive midsize and growing organizations to envision the culture they want to create, adapt and innovate through nonstop change and empower greatness in their people. Leslie coaches leaders to grow their emotional intelligence, amplify their competence, and break through barriers that are holding them back. Leslie built a successful career as a senior Corporate Communications leader for Fortune 100 companies and a large global agency leading teams as large as 45. In addition to executive coaching, Leslie is an author, blogger, workshop facilitator, and speaker on leadership and professional branding. Beyond work, Leslie thrives on power walks, working out yoga, volunteering, to fight food insecurities, and to adapt the arts and planning her family's next travel adventure. This is going to be an amazing, fun conversation, and I'm looking forward to it.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:33
Welcome Leslie, I'm so excited to have you join me today.
 
Leslie O'Connell  02:37
Oh, it's just a pleasure to be with you, Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:40
So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Leslie O'Connell  02:45
Sure. Well, I think of myself as a believer in best days at work and creating more best days at work for leaders for employees, for teams for companies. And what that means is both the experience of day to day work and the performance, the potential the purpose of organizations. I'm an executive coach and communications consultant. Today, I run my own firm called Team OC three. And I also work with a firm called Cavendish Vernal as an executive coach and consultant. However, my career has spanned more than 25 years as an executive communications leader in Fortune 100 organizations also with a large global agency. And I've led teams from a few people, to as many as 45. So I've been where leaders have been, and I bring that perspective to what I do.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:51
That's, awesome. And I love that you start off by saying, How did you say that, bringing best days, every day.
 
Leslie O'Connell  04:00
I believe there are more, there can be more best days at work, because when it comes down to it, you know, we all want to be productive at work. But we want to feel good about what we do. And you know, when we go home and talk to our partner or kids or dog, you know, we want to say hey, you know, I feel good that you know I did this today or we did that today or that this week we delivered that.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:27
What is that? You know, oh, it's it's Monday, you know, I It drives me crazy. Like what is it like the case of the Mondays? It drives me crazy when people say that, because I've never experienced that. I look forward to Mondays like I love my job. I love my I love what I do for a living. And I always wondered when people were like, God, Monday's coming work is coming and I'm like, Wait, do you not like what you do and if you don't know Why? Why aren't you changing it? Right?
 
Leslie O'Connell  05:04
Yeah, we have choice for sure. And I know what you mean, I have a former coworker who you know, had like the Sunday sads, you know, it would get to be five o'clock on a Sunday night. And he would, you know, sort of like, go into this slump of, you know, the work week is ahead, and you know, that would only then the work, the week would get better as it went on. But truly, if we are living into our strengths, living into our talents, if we're in an environment where we can grow and thrive, our workweek should be, you know, really good. And, you know, sure we have life outside of work, but it's a part of who we are. And let's make the best of it.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:48
Well, we spend how much time at work, right? And you would, you would think that people would thrive to try to have a second family at, you know, where they work. And I just, I don't understand the people who go to work and are miserable, because you spend 40 hours,
 
Leslie O'Connell  06:09
plus, or more, right? With the 60,
 
Leighann Lovely  06:13
right, doing that job with those individuals that you're doing it with, if you're in an office, or if you're not, on teams, meetings, Zoom meetings, on one way or another, interacting with these people. And if you don't like them, it's going to be a miserable 40 plus hours every week that you're spending.
 
Leslie O'Connell  06:33
Absolutely. And you know, a lot of that, to me comes from the tone that is set for a company and organization, the tone that is set from the top, the environment that leaders at the top want to create. But it also becomes very personal. And you know how employees in a team interact, how their leader sets a tone and sets a direction for the team to?
 
Leighann Lovely  07:04
Yeah, very interesting. So you're out on your own. You have your business owner, team, OC three. So when did you decide, you know, hey, I'm going to do this, I'm going to take the entrepreneurial leap. And I'm going to go out on my own. Was there a defining moment for you that but you knew or was it the progression of? Yeah, this is, this is going to work? I'm going to kind of dip my toe and what? How did that evolve?
 
Leslie O'Connell  07:39
Yeah, so at the end of 2019, my role was eliminated at the company that I worked for, for 17 years as a vice president. And for the first time in my career, since college, I had no place to go on Monday morning, that first Monday in January. And that was a big a big hit for sure. Because I love what I do. And I love work. I thrive on the community and the connection, the people and the impact that we all create at work. And so for me, it was a journey, there wasn't a moment that it was like, gosh, now I'm going to go and start my own business. I had worked for large companies for close to 30 years. And that was my second home. And so for me that first year became a year of reimagination. It was a year of exploring, discovering, I really committed myself to networking, getting acquainted with a new and broader circle of people. And those people were so instrumental for me in helping me recognize talents that I didn't fully appreciate in myself, and in how I could parlay those talents in a different way than I had in the past. I was also at a point in my career where I felt like I had accomplished really most of what I had wanted to accomplish in the corporate world, and yet, I didn't quite know how to open that next door. So that journey of reimagination took me to an international coaching program. I earned my ACC my associate certified coach credential through the international coaching Federation. I started on a coaching path with an organization and just kind of opened windows open doors along the way and so about a year and a half ago in early 20 21 I said why not. And this was based on the encouragement of friends, colleagues, others who had gone this path before me, and launched my own LLC, through networking started to build that core of clients. And it's just grown and unfolded from there. And there is no turning back. Leann it is the place that I am meant to be.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:30
That's amazing. That's, that's awesome. So it was kind of an organic growth. With intent.
 
Leslie O'Connell  10:39
That's a great way to put it organic with intent, it was sort of informed hunch midship to use a phrase that one of my bosses has used over the years is that you gather data, you gather information, you equip yourself, and then it becomes more clear where that path is leading.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:02
Yeah, yeah, it's like, walking in the dark towards the light. And the closer you get to the light, eventually, it becomes clear as to where you're going. Absolutely. That's, that's absolutely amazing. And, you know, I think that all of us have had those pivotal moments in our lives where we're, we're kind of in the dark as to Okay, where do we go from here. And I think that the worlds collectively together, just experienced in a kind of something similar to that we, you know, the pandemic hit, and we all went, Okay, this will be over in a couple of weeks. And then when a couple of weeks went by, during two months, and we're all kind of going, you know, we're walking in the dark going, Okay, well, it's not going to be a couple of weeks. Clearly, it's not going to be a couple of months. Now, we're, you know, we went two years to finally, like, Okay, well, the world's open again, now what?
 
Leslie O'Connell  11:56
Right, and, you know, it brings to mind an experience. A few years ago, maybe four or five years ago, I accompanied my daughter and her confirmation class on their, what they call their east coast road trip, the east coast of Wisconsin visiting different parks and camping, and that is very much out of my comfort zone, I am not a sleep in a tent under the stars kind of gal. And then the end of the trip was a caving expedition, where we went 40 feet underground in a real live cave. And, you know, we're at times, we were scooting along on our bellies in a wet and muddy cave. So, you know, damp, cold, wet, you know, I was game I knew what I was getting into, sort of, but by the time those two hours had elapsed, like I could not wait to get out. And, and it's a metaphor of, you know, like, the only way to it, the only way to the light is through it. And so I've used that metaphor of the cave experience as not only my own career and career turning points. But as I've also worked with people who are making career transitions, either by choice or because a choice has been thrust upon them. People feel very much at odds and in the dark at those junctures and, and so it is about finding those moments of light that lead you more into the light. And as you shared, the world has experienced a really massive, global universal cave experience. And we're coming back into the light now.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:54
Yeah, that's in Wow. I don't know that I would do the whole you two hours in the cave. That I commend you for that.
 
Leslie O'Connell  14:08
You had, I was surrounded by a bunch of 1617 year olds who are like, come on, you can do it, you know. And while they're not my peers, I was definitely feeling the peer pressure.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:20
Oh my god. Wow, that's and that, hey, and you, you're able to take that, that experience and utilize that and or not utilize, but I mean, everything that we experience, we're able to somehow, I guess, not everything but use those life experiences to explain or to, you know, give examples in some way of of the professional world or real world you know, examples of things it's that was just a great analogy that you trying to say that in a very bad way, there we go.
 
Leslie O'Connell  15:02
Well, I mean, clearly, clearly the it was the cave experience for me to, you know, to lose my job. And to then really think about how do I reimagine reinvent the next stage of my career? And so, yeah, it that cave experience was was a metaphor for my, my own career experience. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:29
Yeah, that's awesome. So speaking of your career now, tell me a little bit about what that is, what what are you? How are you working with companies? How are you? You know, tell me a little bit about what team OC three does?
 
Leslie O'Connell  15:50
Sure. So we've focused on executive coaching, and that's on a one on one basis with leaders. And that can be C suite. I have CEO, clients, senior other senior executives, but also aspiring leaders to people who are perhaps taking on leadership for the very first time. And of course, nobody hands you the how to manual when that happens. Or, you know, leaders who have been in place for a number of years who just know that they want to grow, grow their impact, grow their effectiveness, grow their capabilities. And so we do that, both with one on one coaching of leaders and executives, as well as through facilitated workshop and retreat experiences. The reason that team is in my business name is that I do team up with other experts in organizational development, learning and development, and who are coaches and consultants as well, so that we bring the right mix of skills and capabilities and experiences to each particular client.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:12
That's, that's amazing. So if you're, if you starting real world example, example here. So if I were to approach you and say, Hey, Leslie, I really want to level up. Can you help me? How would you go about beginning with with me?
 
Leslie O'Connell  17:28
Yeah, so we start with a discovery. And that can be as informal conversational to as formal as is appropriate or relevant for the individuals. So for some, that's just getting acquainted asking a series of questions to understand where they're at in their career, what kind of environment they're in what has changed in their organization, often what they see as an opportunity or a pivot point, many of the executives I work with, have recently made a change, take it on expanded responsibilities or a different role either in the organization are in a new organization. And as you said, want to upskill up level, their capability as a leader. Or it can be more formalized to Leanne, where we do a 360 assessment. So you know, having an individual select a group of 15 to 20, individuals who are direct reports, peers, or superiors, and have them complete a formal online survey, that then synthesizes the feedback and the themes from those individuals about what they see, as my clients strengths are and areas of opportunity or growth, that often reveals blind spots for someone both on the positive and on the constructive side. Sometimes people don't realize their strengths and how their strengths are having a positive impact. And they also maybe aren't aware or don't fully appreciate some of the blind spots that they have. And then there's some times in in between where I've done, you know, just one on one interviews with three or four individuals who work with my client to get a sense again of strengths, blind spots, opportunities, things that can help an individual gain more self awareness, and then determine how they want to use spread information to grow and improve.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:04
Interesting. So are you. So does the individual usually approach you? Or is it an organization, because because I don't like, for me, you're talking about, you know, interviewing, like, either superiors or people who report would report to me if I had, you know, a group of individuals report to me. And that's, that's so awesome that, you know, you could go interview them on a confidential basis and say, you know, I want to talk to you about, you know, LeighAnn lovely, and her management style, and the goal is to help her understand better, what she's great at, understand better what she's mediocre at, and where maybe some blind spots are, are that she's not aware of that we can help her get better at or, for me, I, you know, I'm a strong, confident individual, I'd be like, Yeah, do that, because that can only make me better. But I gotta, I gotta guess that there are some people out there, that would be like, No, you're no, you're not going to do that. Like,
 
Leslie O'Connell  21:10
yeah, and it does, it does take a willingness to be a bit vulnerable, to put oneself in a learning mode, and to welcome that reality check, if you will. And, and it's not always easy, even for confident leaders to hear what others have to say about them. And, you know, no 360 assessments are when they're done in a inappropriately professional way. They are very growth oriented, with a sense of kindness, of learning, of understanding how to grow and, and so, and that's really the role of a professional coach, or a professional organizational development consultant who is trained in how to do that in a way that is helpful and productive for an individual. But as you say, this isn't for someone who is really reluctant, because they're not at a point of readiness to grow.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:34
Right? Right, they're not going to anything, you say to them, they're there, it's going to be, they're going to take as well, they're gonna probably not handle the feedback, well,
 
Leslie O'Connell  22:45
they'll be defensive, and so, you know, it's sort of like, you know, working out or working on our health or physical fitness is that we have to be ready to be all in and to make the commitment that this is something that's going to benefit me. I'm going to stick with this because a coaching relationship does take a lot of work and commitment. And while there's a lot of powerful aha moments that do come in the midst of a coaching, conversation, a coaching session, the work happens in between it comes as an individual reflects on their learnings, applies new techniques, on the job or at home in what they do. So it absolutely needs readiness and commitment on the part of that leader or that employee.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:57
Interesting. Very, so. The people who are engaging you are individuals, they're not typically companies.
 
Leslie O'Connell  24:05
Actually, it's both. It's a both and so I do work with individuals. And often that happens when they're at a career pivot point, seeking to get more out of their career and wanting to understand how they can better grow and position themselves for the future. And I work with organizations where, you know, from the CEO to other senior executives, and that can be an individual basis, I met a CEO who came to me and just was taking on newly expanded role and really wanted to work with a coach to help grow her and her skills. And, or it can be, you know, a group I'm with the firm, Cavendish Bernal that I mentioned, we're working with an organization where seven of us coaches are coaching a group of 14 leaders in the organization. Each of us has two or three clients. And then we're also then able to distill systemic themes that are either helping or hindering the organization to. So so it happens on all points of that individual to organization.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:40
That's it. Okay, so now, you just touched on something that I, that I have to dig into a little bit. So companies, you know, obviously, culture, and you and I were just talking about this starts with managers, starts with leaders starts from the top, because everybody at you know, in, you know, they what, shit rolls downhill, right? To throw out something that's, you know.
 
Leslie O'Connell  26:11
That's right. Yeah, yeah. I call it the shadow of a leader. And so that's the shadow of the CEO, the shadow of the senior leadership team, the shadow of the team's manager, that shadow casts a light for better or for worse on the organization, the department, the unit, the team.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:37
So working with, you know, the senior leaders in the executive, the C suite, if you are, if you're a business, you're an organization wanting to make a true impact on the culture, you know, and I've seen this mistake happen, where they're like, Oh, we're working on the culture, we're working to change the culture, and they're working on. And I always use manufacturing floor, or they're working, and I shouldn't always use that example. But you know, they're like, Oh, we're out there, we're trying to rally the troops. And I go, Okay, that's great that you, it's awesome that you're trying to get the, you know, you know, the main population of your organization on board with this, but you still have, you know, a major problem with your C suite that doesn't want to engage with the employees, or, you know, they still are acting the same way that they were, before you took this on this initiative. Sorry, but nothing is going to change, it's going to default back to where it was over and over and over and over again, because of exactly what you just said, you know, the shadow of you know, that they're always going to revert back because it eventually just continues to come back through the Manage upper management, and they are the people who drive, ultimately, decisions, culture, attitudes, because everybody's looking to them for their leadership.
 
Leslie O'Connell  28:07
Absolutely, we all look up, it's human nature. And, you know, we're looking at what is what is the CEO? What is he or she doing? What is his or her approach? I'll take the example of an organization that we're working with, and there was a CEO change about a year and a half ago, and the previous CEO had very command and control sort of approach to leadership and management, it was about telling, not asking, it was about directing, it was not an environment of dialogue and openness. There wasn't a lot of transparency. And so the organization largely followed suit, there were pockets where where individual leaders were trying to create more of a servant leadership approach, but that is only going to take root you know, on a more segmented team basis, because ultimately the shadow of that command and control senior leader is influencing his or her leadership team and how they respond and are rewarded. And, and so on. And then a new CEO was appointed who has a vision for much more of an emotionally intelligence based servant leadership. Inclusive, egalitarian I kind of culture that she wants to engender, because she has done that at previous organizations. And she sees the value to the satisfaction, retention, attraction, growth of employees. And so it's a different way of thinking. Culture does not happen with a flip of a switch, it takes a very concerted effort across multiple levels, and needs to really filter through an organization over time. But she has invited coaching for herself for members of her leadership team. And she's introduced workshops for their leadership group at large a group of about 65 people who are learning leadership in a different kind of way.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:04
So, and that's awesome. I mean, that that is amazing. And, but so here's the, you know, the question that immediately pops into my head, which is one yes, how long, but to, you know, what is going to be the turnover ratio of because, you know, obviously, you get a new, a new person in there, who's going to flip everything on its head. Now, depending on how long that other person was in there running things, the way that they were running, you have a group of people who have gotten so conditioned to do it one way, right. And we are, we are our conditioning, we are, I mean, that is routine
 
Leslie O'Connell  31:49
Absolutely. So in this particular example, three of her leadership, team members opted to leave the organization, I, you know, they started their own job search, you know, by choice, not by invitation, just because they realize that, you know, this is not the way I've been conditioned, or the way that I value leading. And, you know, you can't say one style is right or wrong, they're different. And they have different purposes. And so, so in this case, you know, three of the 12, senior leadership, team members opted to leave. And that itself starts to create a regeneration across the organization, too.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:45
Right. And that's, and, and what you said, not one or the other, necessarily is wrong, if it's conducive to a healthy work environment. I would have to say that nowadays, people don't want the do as I say, not as I do, or the barking of orders, more and more people are looking for that more inclusive, you know, environment a, the world's been flipped on its head, they're there people are demanding a much help, you know, happier, easier work environments.
 
Leslie O'Connell  33:23
Absolutely. You know, and people are at a point of speaking up of voicing what matters to them in the workplace more than ever before. You know, certainly that has been a part of more progressive organizations, but you know, people really want more out of their workplace. You know, I, I talk about the five be used, if you will, that people want to one they want to believe in a vision in a purpose. They want to feel like there is a mission for their organization or their team. They want to belong, they want to feel that they are included and take pride in belonging to something that is bigger than ourselves. People want to be heard, you know, they do want to have a voice, and that that voice is acknowledged and respected. I think employees recognize that they're not always going to be the decision makers. The decision isn't always going to go their way. But they want to at least have their feedback, their voice heard. They want to be stretched. You know, I think we all want to grow and thrive and And, and expand our capabilities or take on different or new responsibilities over time. And then finally, and this goes back to that, you know, what makes the best day of at work is that we want to feel like we're, uh, we're the difference, we want to be the difference, you know that what we do matters that has an impact, it makes life better for our customers or our clients or, you know, those who are relying on us. And so, you know, that sense of believing belonging being heard being stretched? Being the difference? I think those are expectations today of employees?
 
Leighann Lovely  35:56
Absolutely. I mean, first, you don't go into management's? Well, some people get kind of pushed into management, and then they ended up being under trained and don't know what they're doing, which obviously, is the, you know, the cycle. What was it, I think I just recently threw this out there, this number might have changed, you might know. But it was like 8% of the people who move into management are actually trained, the rest, have no have no management, actual management training, that doesn't go for necessarily the C suite, but you know, just a general manage manager role. And the point that I'm trying to get to, though is that typically people who choose to get trained, move, and have an intentional, you know, drive to move into management, the goal that they have is to make an impact, try to make change, to make things better to be able to walk away at the end of the day and say, I've accomplished, you know, what my goal was to accomplish today, and I've made an impact in some way or another, right? It does, absolutely, and it doesn't matter. It's not, this is not industry, specific, it doesn't matter if we're talking about a service industry, or if we're talking about a non service industry distribution company, or, you know, manufacturing company, and you're in the management role, if you, you know, typically people who choose to manage other people, they, the goal that they have at the beginning, is that I want to be able to help the people that I'm managing to be able to lift them up to do their job the best they can do. So at the end of the day, we're all moving in the same direction. But it often happens with organizations, where managers are not being given the tools that they need to do that. And then you see, these cultures just crumble, they just they start to fall apart. And you see pissed off managers, who are creating volatile environments for the people that they're managing, because they don't have the answers. They're not being able to, to provide them with what they need. And it's just becomes this systemic issue and problem throughout many companies and in our society of, of, you know, people who are just not being treated the way that they should be treated, because even upper management isn't paying attention to the fact that they're not giving what they need to those managers.
 
Leslie O'Connell  38:38
Absolutely, you know, culture takes a lot of vision and care and feeding
 
Leighann Lovely  38:45
and absolute intention.
 
Leslie O'Connell  38:49
Intent for sure. And, and, you know, I've throughout my career, I have worked in across industries, my career started in manufacturing, at quad graphics, you know, a printing company here in Wisconsin. And I have to say that reflecting on the nearly 30 years of my career, the best leadership training I got was at quad graphics. Now that was under the leadership at that time of the founder, Harry Quadracci who was an enlightened leader himself. And he created in a egalitarian environment that was, you know, whether people were considered were management in the traditional sense of the office leaders or leaders on a press on a binder in the finishing area. We all came together for managment leadership training, to learn how to bring out the best in people. And he made it Harry Quadracci, he made a very significant and intentional investment in leadership development for his people. And he modelled it himself. And, and, you know, that's the kind of commitment and vision that it takes to really drive a positive culture.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:35
And that's great. And you hear about, you hear about these diamonds in a rough all the time in where you, you've got owners who walk around and personally think everybody at their company, from the person who cleans the bathroom, to the President, you know, of the organization, he treats every single individual, he or she, I don't like to say he, he or she, you know, owners of companies who walk around and they treat every single human at that company, the same. It's an it's you don't hear it often. But you do hear of these leaders from from the past, and those are the people that we should all be modeling our businesses, you know, modeling them against, you know.
 
Leslie O'Connell  41:24
Absolutely, there's great role models. And, and I do think that there are progressive, enlightened leaders and companies today that are are initiating positive culture, evolution. And it's a, you know, it's a super challenging time, as you started our conversation. We have come through a cave that disrupted life as we know it, and that has challenged and stretched leaders and companies in ways that, you know, none of us anticipated. But what I am seeing is that, as companies as organizations have regained their footing, leaders are taking advantage of this time to invest in their employee development and leadership development, recognizing that to attract, grow, keep talent in an ever competitive environment. That a positive culture, a good workplace, having good leaders really matter.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:51
Yes. And, you know, my day job, I'm in staffing, there was a time when. And this like, just shot me through the heart when I would have companies come to me and I, I was, you know, they would say to me, Well, we've we've actually stopped doing the employee onboarding process until the until the employees here for a week. And I'm like, what, what do you mean, you're not, you know, you're not grading the employee, when they start on their first day, like, no wonder they're not staying for more than a week, like, and they're like, well, that that was why we stopped doing it, because they just weren't staying here for a week. And then we were wasting all of our time. And I'm like, well, that doesn't mean that you need to stop crit. Like, you've obviously got something else going on. I mean, it's, but you're right, we are finally companies are finally really okay, that's not working either. Like, I know the things that I hear the things that I deal with. But I think that now we're out the other side of the pandemic. At least I've I've done with this. I've moved on, I think the most of the world has. I think companies have finally started to figure out this was eye opening. It truly was eye opening that they can't You can't be you know, you no longer can say oh, yeah, number two employee come over here, please. Number 22. employee, you actually have to know who they are. You actually have to put you know, stock in them, you actually have to treat them like humans. And when they say hey, I've got a family emergency, don't make them feel guilty about it. Because you know what, you make them feel guilty. They're gonna start thinking about going somewhere else. And right now, they've got a million different places to go.
 
Leslie O'Connell  44:42
Yeah, the environment today and for the future, you know, based on just demographic, the demographic wave of changes that was then only accelerated by the pandemic and how the pandemic caused people to think do currently about what sacrifices they were making or their families were making, that people do have more choices today. And there's not a line of 10 individuals waiting to fill that role. And so, you know, for the better, it's been a wake up call to organizations, to companies, that investing in people investing in leaders really does matter. And that it is a not only a competitive differentiator, when it comes to talent, it's a competitive differentiator when it comes to the performance and the results that an organization can deliver. Right, because how an organization treats its employees is absolutely mirrored in how those employees treat customers.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:56
oh, absolutely. And there was, and when I say, you know, a lot of positions, you know, there, there was a time when, you know, the only positions open were just, you know, the general laborer, those were lacking in that, but we're not just talking about positions being open at that level we're talking about is, you know, like, for controller position C suite level positions at, across the board, I mean, it's positions at every level within organizations, starting with President CEO, controllers, you know, tax we're talking about across the board. So, I mean, it's people like you who are going in and doing the leadership training is, is, in order for companies to retain and keep employees, if you don't have those, you know, that that level of culture, your, the companies are going to fail, they're gonna, they're, they're gonna lose great people, to other companies who are investing in their people. And it's
 
Leslie O'Connell  47:00
Right there, and then it also, you know, I think, it also becomes an oh, we're just going to have to increase wages or increase salaries. And, you know, there are countless surveys that show that employees will select a great leader, a great team, over salary when they have, you know, comparable offers, you know, when they feel compatibility, respect, the opportunity to grow, you know, when those qualities are present, they will take those kinds of opportunities over the, you know, the salary that might be five or 10%. More. I mean, I can I use myself and many of my colleagues over the years as examples, there are times where I made career changes specifically, and took a step back in salary, because I was motivated by the team, the opportunity, the long term growth, opportunity of the organization of my role of my potential. And so, to me, I saw that as an investment play, and in my experience, it played out. Along the way, that I earned more, I had more responsibility, I grew faster, you know, as I made those choices, too. So it's not always about the money if people feel that they're being compensated adequately.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:42
Absolutely, absolutely. I completely agree. Now, we are coming to time. So the question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Leslie O'Connell  48:59
Well, I'm all about like, start early, start often. So I would go back to myself at age 22. And, gosh, you know, try to pack, you know, three decades of wisdom into a sentence. But, um, you know, in short, I would tell myself, you know, be kind to yourself, and be bold. You know, I grew up with a type A father, who instilled in me, the desire to be a perfectionist, always get it right. And the reality is, none of us are ever going to get it right. And so in some ways that held me back from taking risks from believing in myself along the way, and you know, and then when we think about it, we often To say, things to ourselves that we would never say to somebody else, you know, the self talk that we have, is often often skews negative more than positive. And so that's where the Be kind to yourself. Lastly comes from is cut yourself some slack and be generous with recognizing the goodness in, in yourself and, and acknowledging the warts too. But balancing that self critique, and again, having worked with many different clients, we all have a voice on our shoulder that is talking back to us way more than it should be. So be kind, be bold.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:55
That's awesome. I love it. And yeah, I mean, absolutely. Because you know, what, 22 year old me a 22 year old. Most people could use that advice.
 
Leslie O'Connell  51:13
Well, I hope it I hope as I am able to, and I do work with some young people today too, as an aspect of my business I. In fact, I've recently worked with a young woman who is preparing for medical school interviews and you know, talk about a pivotal life moment. And another young woman actually who is preparing for grad school interviews, and it actually she's the performer and musical performer. So auditions too. But as I coach them, I am helping to encourage that idea of self awareness, self reflection and kindness to self.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:02
Yeah. Yep. Awesome. Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
52:10
Yeah, a couple of ways. Thanks for asking. Certainly visit my website, which is www.teamOC3.com. So T E A M O C 3 .com. Or my email, which is Leslie@Teamoc3.com. Or, lastly Leslie@teamos3. The it's L E S L I E.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:43
Excellent. Well, and that will also be in the show notes. So if anybody does want to reach out to you, they can find it in the show notes as well. But Leslie, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. It's been an awesome conversation.
 
Leslie O'Connell  52:55
And the privilege has been mine and thank you so much.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:58
Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Leslie
 
Website – www.teamoc3.com
 
LinkedIn – http://www.linkedin.com/in/leslieoconnell/
 
E-mail – Leslie@teamOC3.com
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, organization, leaders, employees, companies, individual, leslie, culture, grow, coaching, absolutely, leadership, career, executive coach, ceo, pandemic, role, management, team

Episode 23 - Claudia Miller - Sought-after career coach

Claudia Miller is a sought-after career coach, she is a brilliant woman. She has dedicated her career and focused her efforts on working with women and women of color. She has been featured in Forbes, MSNBC, Thrive Global, and Business Insider putting her in their top global list of Top Innovative Career Coaches. This is definitely a conversation you should check out!
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:08
Claudia Miller is a sought after career coach for women in tech, and she helps her clients land fulfilling jobs at a senior level. She also partners with companies and organizations in identifying rising stars within their organization, and providing strategic insight and support in developing a leadership and talent pipeline with a focus on women and women of color. Due to her efforts, she worked with top Fortune 500 clients and partnered with World Business Chicago in developing a workforce development strategy in coordination with the city of Chicago's efforts in decreasing unemployment rates for persons of color. She's also the creator, and host of roadmap to the executive suite podcast. Due to her clients success. She has been featured multiple times in Forbes, MSNBC, thrive global, and Business Insider, I put her in their Top Global list of top innovative career coaches. This is going to be an awesome conversation today. And I look forward to it.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:21
Claudia, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you here.
 
Claudia Miller  02:26
I'm excited to be here. Leighann, especially with some of the topics we'll be discussing today.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:30
Yeah, so why don't we jump right in? And, you know, why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Claudia Miller  02:36
I am a career coach for women in tech, and I help my clients land fulfilling jobs. And since COVID, I've been able to help clients get jobs within 90 days or less. And on average, my clients get a 56% in salary increases. So not only do I work with women, but I also work with organizations and companies that are looking to develop their leadership and talent pipeline, and primarily with more women and women of color in senior leadership roles.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:03
That's amazing. And, you know, obviously, with the onset of the pandemic, things have, you know, really affected women, especially women of color. So it's it's such an amazing thing that you're doing, have you always you know, had a pull towards, you know, the kind of that coaching aspect kind of that has it always been a you know, kind of a path that you've wanted to go on, or tell me a little bit about that.
 
Claudia Miller  03:32
Definitely around the mentorship, I wouldn't say necessarily coaching because what I didn't really know about coaching until later in life, but I just called it mentorship and helping people out. And I tend to be very resourceful. So when I don't know anything, I'll just say, let me find out. And then somehow I get, you know, the solution or various solutions and see, hey, let's test out to see what works. And you know, you mentioned you were struggling with A, B and C, here's some ideas that I have, you know, why don't we test them out and see how that works? later than I realized, well, that's a form of coaching and kind of once I knew about and I started mentoring people and coaching them, then that's where the birth of my company started from have more on the coaching aspect in relation to careers and leadership roles.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:22
That's awesome. That's amazing. And you're right, you know, coaching, what, it really became the boom of coaching I guess I've seen more and more of that popping up over the last couple of really like what the last five years and just in extreme popping up as more and more people have kind of gone out on their own and figured out that there's a definite need, you know, in the world, not only for individual coaching, but also for going into organizations and, you know, coaching on a large scale of, Hey, where's that need is there, you know, specific department needs is there Watching have of actual managers? Because what and I throw these statistics out all the time, but how many managers go into management positions and don't actually have any training? Right? So I mean, that's, that's amazing. So you mentioned, you know, obviously the women of color women being, you know, some of these, these individuals who are kind of have historically been, I guess, overlooked. And now, with the onset of the pandemic, unfortunately, women over men, kind of a large, a larger number of those during the pandemic dropped out of the labor market, right? And what statistically speaking, or I should say, not statistically speaking, but when you run down all of the reasons, there's valid reasons as to why so many women dropped out, you know, a lot of the homemaking duties fell on on some of the women. And then when you really dive into those numbers, it disproportionately hit women of color. Most. So I guess, how has that really changed your business and how you are helping these women level back up, or, you know, because some of them were struggling to even go back into the job market at what they were making prior to the pandemic? So, you know, I'd love to hear your input on that.
 
Claudia Miller  06:35
Yeah, and you kind of touched on a few things. So one of the things that I've noticed, definitely women and women of color have been the biggest population that has been impacted with COVID, when it comes to the workforce. And because of those responsibilities, I mean, the working from home plus kids online learning, I mean, I can't even imagine having a toddler and having them sit down in front of a laptop while you're still working in managing the rest of the housework. So it definitely fell upon women. And they've been the mostly impacted. But from what I've seen, and how I've seen the change since COVID, especially when it comes to my clients is they've kind of had that pivotal moment when they realize that their job could be done from home, or they're looking for more of that fulfillment, they started to realize, you know, without the hustle and bustle of commuting and picking up the kids, they finally had some time to realize that they can do their work successfully, while working from home and still take care of some of the house things that we tend to do, like, Oh, I'm doing laundry while I'm getting on the meeting. And I may be having some food in the crock pot for later for dinner today. And I'm still performing at the level I was already doing at the office or even more at this point. So there definitely came that reflection moment of them realizing, you know, what, I want more of a fulfilling job, I want to be challenged. And I want to be an organization that values me, but also my priorities. And my philosophy is, you know, we work but there are some non-negotiables, like family, like family is that, for me, at least is that's a non-negotiable. So if I can do the job successfully, and there's no need for me to go into the office, why do I need to go into the office, and it allows me to be flexible with my family. So it's really having that understanding from them and saying, You know what, I'm ready for the next step in my career, I'm looking for that fulfillment, while still having that flexibility where the output and the work will still be there or even higher levels, because I'm able to be more productive with it. And that's where a lot of my clients now are coming to say, Hey, I've been at this company for so long. They're asking us to work from go back into the office. And there's no need for me to go into this. I've been doing this job successfully for two years. And you know what, I had been passed up already for promotions multiple times. And I've come to realize that I'm ready for a change. I'm ready for something.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:05
that's awesome. And and I have I've heard that story. My day job. I'm you know, I'm in the recruiting, I'm in the hiring. I'm in the so I'm in the thick of it on a daily basis. And and you're right. It's one why are they being passed up to if we are we are capable the world has has now shown us that we are capable of doing work at home and yeah, right now I have you know, I have my child upstairs. I'm fortunate enough to actually have my husband upstairs with her so she's not running down here. Do you know Hey, Mommy, Hey, Mommy, and she's four. But we have shown that that we're capable of working from home men and women alike are you know, very much capable of working from home? Now, so here's, here's a question that I pose, you're you're working with these individuals, but on the company side, because you also go in and you've done work with, I mean top Fortune 500 clients and and companies and you know, so when these organizations come to you and say, yep, we think that we want to bring them back into the office, are we? What is the advice that you're giving to those organizations? What is the, you know, the reaction? Or the conversation, you sit down and say, Well, wait a second?
 
Claudia Miller  10:40
Great question. So when usually companies, you know, I work with them, they'll say, Well, how can we move more women into leadership roles? What do we need to do to retain our top employees? And how can we attract that top talent? So that way, they not only want to work here, but they stay here. So one of the things I look into as well, let's Is this an inclusive environment that we currently have for top talent that you're looking to attract and retain? Because there's a difference? And they're both costly? So if you're, I mean, a new probably knows from HR perspective, it costs this amount of money to try to hire someone. And it's even more cost effective to retain them than to always hire and fill that position over and over again. So then it's doing like an audit and assessment, do we have an environment right now that allows women and just overall touchdown to thrive it? Because if you're asking them to come into the office, why is that? Now I understand there's some roles and responsibilities that you do need people to come into the office, via the front desk office, and you need someone to check in or whatever, that it's there are professionals that are needed for someone to be there physically. Now, is this really needed? And if it's, no, it's not needed? Then why do we have that now we can offer that flexibility. I also have clients where they're like, hey, I need to leave the house, I cannot be there. I need to go, I'm an extrovert. I want to be around people. And sometimes I cannot get things done at home. Because Because my husband and my kids are all there, I need to go somewhere else to just kind of have separate both work and business. Now, we want to offer that flexibility. But that's not every not a job doesn't require for someone to be there. Let's really look into the assessment. Is this because you don't trust your employees? Then the question doesn't become should they come in? It's why don't we trust the employees? Is it because systems related? And if there's a systems and processes related? Let's look into that? Is it because you have not hired? Maybe their team is very green and very entry level? Okay, well, then how can we create this conducive environment for them? And maybe we need to do training beforehand before they even start their job. So there are other factors to look into to them just saying, well, we need them to be in the office. Well, if you just need to be in the office, because you want them in the office, then it becomes a different question, then your priority is not to attract and retain top talent, and make it easy for them to do and deliver the work at the level you want them to
 
Leighann Lovely  13:14
Right, sometimes it's just a mindset. And it's it becomes, well, you just want them in the office, because that's what you've only ever known. And you're not willing to change with the times, which means you're you're never going to be able to have the young, beautiful, amazing talent that is coming into the workforce. Because unfortunately, this is the new workforce that is coming up. This is because that's, that's what they are coming up in this is this is the new and I hate to say it, you know, I people hate this. This is the new normal. I mean, this is now normal.
 
Claudia Miller  13:59
Yeah, and even like I have clients, and most of my clients already managers, directors, senior directors, so they're between like, late 30s, but usually they're in their 40s and 50s. They're like I been working from home already from this previous company, and I'm looking to go into another company, and they're asking me to go into the office, there's no way I'm doing that. Or two, I've always worked it to the office, and now I've had a taste of the work from home lifestyle, and I'm not going back, there's no turning back. All the work that I do can be done remotely. And I want to be able to do that. And then you know, it opens up other aspects of it. But even like is that just even like the new generation is just overall wellbeing? And everyone like I said, Isn't a different point in their time in their life? And like is are they able to fulfill the job successfully? You know, while working from home? If so, yes, then it also opens up a higher talent pool. We don't just have to hire within our you know area or zip code. Now we can open up to other parts in the US and be able to attract that top talent that otherwise wouldn't be capable of. And now we have access to that. Plus it saves on personal expenses and operating expenses as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:11
You had mentioned I'm, you know, I'm an extrovert, I love the ability to work from home. But there are days where I'm working from home and I'm like, You know what, I really just, I'm gonna go into the office. So I'll work from home in the morning, and then I'll I'll finish out my day in the office, because I'm just going stir crazy and my my little lower level, you know, office, and I'm like, and, and usually those are the days when my daughter's in school, my husband's at work, and I'm sitting here with my crazy dog who's driving me crazy. Who was literally driving me crazy. I'm like, I'm going into the office, like, it's too quiet. But there are people and one of my best friend is one of them. She's she's an accountant. And she's like, Oh, my God, I hate going into the office. Like, she goes, I can do everything I need to do. Quiet. No disturbing, you know, notice urban, nobody coming up saying, Hey, what'd you do this weekend, she's like, it just it stops me from doing my work, I get distracted, I feel like I can get so much more done. And there is definitely a mix of that. And, and as a recruiter, I've talked to some candidates who are like, I will absolutely positively only work remote. And I'm like, Okay, I'll see what I can do. But there is a predominant number of companies out there that are still Nope, they have to at least come into the office two days a week. Like, we just we want that camaraderie, we want to be able to physically be in the same room with each other two days a week. But there are people out there that are 100% remote. So you know, there's definitely a mix. Now. You work with obviously women, women of color. And this, and I absolutely am intrigued by this topic, because speaking with dei experts speaking with it goes, it's so much deeper than just hey, we are we're a company that's diverse. And this is something that I think a lot of companies, a lot of individuals, not just company individuals who have this conversation, they don't understand what it means to have a true, true diversity and inclusive environment. And what that means to the healthiness to the benefits of being diverse, at every level of an organization, not just saying, Oh, we're a manufacturing company. And every you know, we have every buddy, you know, all races and ages and colors and on the manufacturing floor, but everybody in the C suite are white men. That really it doesn't it that really has no impact, you know, truly on the company. And so I would love to talk to you a little bit about, you know, how that impacts and why that's so important to work with women. And I'll leave it at that.
 
Claudia Miller  18:25
I love that you brought that Leanne, because yes, I mean, and even, there's a report by McKinsey called women in the workplace, and the most recent one is from last year 2021. And it shows that men and women both are hired at the same rates. Now for every 100 men that get promoted 86 women get promoted. And as we move up the career ladder, it creates a discrepancy and anomalies leads to a 75% drop in women in leadership roles. So safety, like you mentioned, on the metro, manufacturing floor and entry level positions, we may see that oh, yeah, we're we're very diverse we have look at our employee pool. And when you look at senior leadership roles, it tells a different story. And overall, not only because it's ethical and moral, and you want to have that diversity, but also the bottom line is it's good for business. I was reading a stat that for companies that have they need to have at least 30% women in leadership roles, but when you hit that mark, and increases 10 to 30% of revenue to your bottom line. So it is not only like I said important to be able to have that and also it it stems in creates more innovation because we have different points of views and allows companies to create different products, different services, offerings, different segmentations for companies or clients you want to attract and it can just overall increase revenue overall. But you know, those are the things that they need to be taken into account when it comes to that. So it's really creating a system that allows for women Women have colored diverse talent to be able to thrive in, but also giving an empowering the employees to be able to do so as well. So I do think that one as employees, we do have a responsibility to also advocate for ourselves. But we also need a company and a system that allows us to thrive. And that can set us up for success if we're willing to do the work. And usually, there is a mixed or there's a, there's a part missing, either the employee doesn't know how to advocate for themselves, toot their own horn and position themselves to start developing that executive presence. But I've also seen from companies where they've created systems that doesn't allow them to continue to be able to thrive and and they're always like, a good example is they're always hiring externally, but never looking internally. And then when that employee leaves, not all of a sudden, magically, that title they've been asking for four years out of medically is available, that salary increase they've been asking for, all of a sudden, it's like the like, there's just an open box that just opened up, and all of a sudden, there's that money. Whereas had they offer that to the employee beforehand, that employee would have stayed there, they would never even considered looking at other companies. And now you're having someone that's been at the company, you know, 510 years of experience walking out the door. And now they need to hire three people to cover that one person's responsibility. So like, those are just some like quick examples that I've seen both from the candidate side where they're like, I keep getting passed up for promotion, I know, I just found out being grossly underpaid. And I make 50k $50,000 less than my direct reports, and all these horrible scenarios that I've heard about. But when they get the job, all of a sudden, the money's there, the title is there, the upper mobility is there, the resources are there. So that's more of a systemic company issue that needs to be resolved. So when you have the two, that's like a perfect marriage.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:55
So you mentioned something about, you know, companies are able the companies are, are able to make higher revenues. And I'm probably saying this, I'm not saying it the way that you put it such, you know, eloquently, but, you know, so companies are actually, you know, higher producing, they're, they're actually running better when you have a diverse leadership team. Correct? Correct. So why is that? I mean, what, what is the, what makes up that secret sauce, when all of the sudden you have it, you know, and in the back of my head, I'm thinking Well, to me, it kind of makes sense, right? I mean, I can think of 1,000,010 different reasons. You've got ideas, that one, you know, but there's got to be statistics behind that right as to. And it's always in put the right people in the put, put the person in the right spot on the bus and they will thrive. Yeah, but it's like, why why have we not thought about this? Why is this just happening now? For God's sakes? Right?
 
Claudia Miller  23:07
Yeah, I do believe there's, there's there multiple variables, but sometimes it's the unconscious bias. And these are things that we always know, you know, or it's like, nobody tries to rock the boat. So for example, when looking to fill a job position, we think that the person needs to fill in every single thing, in that job description, they need to be already experienced in that role. So if I'm applying for we're trying to fill a director role, we're looking for other persons that's already done the director position. And then discounting that manager that's been working in that department, or at that company for five, seven years, who already knows the ins and outs, instead of promoting them, we say, well, you don't have that director experience, we're just gonna hire elsewhere. Whereas we could have already given instead of that person for success and move them up, but because sometimes we think black and white, we're looking for a director, therefore, we must hire a director position. And I know in HR, you're probably hear from hiring managers, like you are asking for the impossible, and then the pay doesn't even match up. Where do you want me to find this person? Right? So there are just so many things that it's very black and white that we think director position, where I'm coming from that, you know, candidate side saying, don't apply to jobs that you qualify 100% Because I already know you're going to feel bored and challenge once you get to know the company, and then you're gonna find yourself looking for another job, because you're looking to be fulfilled, you're looking to grow and learn. You're looking to acquire new skill sets, and you don't want to stay stagnant in your career. So just going into a job posting just thinking about it. There's just like I said, so many things, that unconscious bias of, well, this person has to have this previous experience in order to do this job. It's one thing to another conscious bias is, you know, maybe and then thinking of A kinda like a woman, or she had a two year break, because of maternity leave or taking care of a loved one. So who cares, she's still able to do the job doesn't matter if she took a two year break or four year break, can she do the job successfully? And is there opportunity for her to grow up in that role, because then that becomes a loyal employee. There, they're able to learn. And you also sometimes, we don't always want someone that's already done it because you want them to be innovative, that creates for more innovative solutions allows them to stay within that role in itself. And because of that innovation, that's where the revenue comes from, maybe they're doing this in a very productive way. Maybe they're able to do this in a short amount of time, because they're realizing how it impacts them. Based on the role, like, Hey, I used to do this job, and I know this pain points. Now, as a manager, director, let me kind of read, get rid of those challenges to make my team work more faster and efficiently. Because I know that used to be a big obstacle for me,
 
Leighann Lovely  26:02
You know, and it's, you said, loyal employee. So I know a company that hired a woman, she was pregnant, they were fully aware, she was pregnant, they hired her fully knowing that in six months from then she was going to go on maternity leave. I will tell you that that that individual was one like, oh, wow, you're going to offer me the job. And I'm, you know, first of all, that should be the way that it is, you know, being pregnant is not. It's not an illness. It's not a it should be a triumph, you know, period of your life. But of course, I hated being pregnant. I love the end result. But anyways, it should be a great time in a woman's life of Oh, my gosh, I'm growing a life in me. But many employers will, if they find out, despite the fact that obviously it's illegal to discriminate for that purpose. Just little caveat in there, if anybody's listening and digging, you know, you hire somebody who's pregnant, that employee will become an extremely loyal employee. Again, what you were saying, okay, yes, she took a break, she took a year break a two year break a four year break, raising her children that does not make that person, all of the sudden, uneducated and incapable of doing the job they did before they took a break to raise their children. And there's so many people out there that are so scared to do that, because they're like, Oh, I could end in my career, if I do this. It's like, really like this is things that drive women's decisions. But what I like about the society that we are now entering into is that we put an emphasis, a huge emphasis now on work life balance, and parental leave. And more and more companies are now saying not maternity leave, they're saying parental leave, because men are now saying, wait a second. Why is only the woman allowed to get an opportunity to enjoy the first couple of months of this beautiful new life? Can't I get a chance to bond with my child? I mean, it just seems like it was it's been so backwards for so long. And now we're finally going Yeah, men are just as important in the in a new child's life. And I'm sorry, I'm bringing up you know, this whole pregnancy thing, but and women have historically kind of been punished for Oh, god, you're gonna take three months off to bond with your child? Oh, god, that's such a horrible thing. How dare you do that? You know, and men are going wait a second, I want to do that, too. It's like, yeah, yeah, go, you can do that. Yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe society will stop punishing the woman for doing it, if the man does it. And it'll start to balance out. And something else that you said, promoting from within. Part of the reason that we have less women in leadership is because and this is, again, a systemic problem throughout our society, is because companies do mediately go externally. And because there are more men who have historically been in leadership, more men apply to the position with the said, skill level, right? Or said, director level experience. And so they continue to put those men back in those instead of promoting the possible woman who has the experience from within, thus not getting that additional training. Which is why women continue to leave the job that they're at To get more advancement, creating thus the problem that we have,
 
Claudia Miller  30:09
Yeah, I had, I had a client where her company got acquired. And usually when an acquisition comes whoever the acquisition body or companies, they'll put in their new leadership, so they'll put in a new CEO, the CEO brings their own CFO, their CMO, and everyone else. And all of a sudden, she used to have direct access to the CFO. Well, now she's four levels, below the CFO, yet she's training every single one of them, that department that she created the processes, she embedded into it. And now they're looking to get a reacquired, or they sold it off to someone else. So they're not. So she's been through like three different bosses in the past four years. While she's the one that created the department, she went on maternity leave her responsibilities, she was demoted. And now, of course, she's looking for a job, right? And she got a job offer. And they're asking her, you know, what can we do to keep you that, like, at this point, it is too late, right? Um, so there's just so many things that kind of you have to take into account. But, I mean, there's multiple reasons. But like you mentioned, even like, I have my own business, but even for my husband, I want him, you know, one of the things that dictates where he goes to is, well, we're looking to, you know, build or grow our family. So what are the, you know, offerings and benefits that come from it, because I too, need that partner. And then right now, he works for a really big company. So he's like, I am loyal to this company. If I can retire here, I would stay here. And those are like the really great companies because of the benefits that they offer the for the entire family. And now you get more of a loyal, devoted person. They're looking, I mean, he works extra, because he loves and enjoys his company. He's always promoting it, he's always speaking very highly of the company. Like these are things that come from it. That's free promotion, that's hard to buy. And all these things stacked up against each other is what creates a very successful company. That's where innovation comes in.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:16
I was yeah, that you're exactly right. I was talking to somebody and I can't remember which episode, but there is a really easy way to destroy your company. Treat your employees like crap. And they will go out. And not only are they going in, I'm not saying they're going out purposely bad mouthing the company, but they're going to have conversations with their friends. They're going to be in social settings, and they're going to be Oh, yeah, my job sucks, or where do you work? And they're gonna say, Oh, I work at XYZ company. And it's just all the culture is horrible. That one really bad conversation that somebody overhears, that can spread like wildfire, like I mean, it. Absolutely. And you can completely stop. I mean, and there's one company in particular, that I, like it's known in everybody who works in that particular type of industry, every, none of them will go work there, because they know that the working conditions are so bad. And I had brought it up, somebody, you know, in my network had said, Oh, if you know, anybody who's looking for this type of work, and I brought it up, because I knew somebody in that type of work, and he goes, Oh, God, no, nobody I know will ever go work there. And I was like, Oh my god. So on the flip side of that, if you want to spend very little on promotion and marketing, become known as the place that treats your employees, awesome. That really goes out of your way to offer good benefits, a good vacation package that makes your employees happy. I know a company that has a gourmet chef that makes food, you know, on on the lunch hour, makes fresh food every day for their entire staff, and that the employees don't pay for it. It's all included. So every day that employees come out on their lunch hour, the the gourmet chef is there making fresh food for them for their lunch hour, they have an hour lunch, they go back, and then they finish out their day and go home. And everybody raves about, wow. I mean, the work is hard. But wow, I love working here. I'm not gonna go anywhere else. I'm not going to get a gourmet meal for lunch every day.
 
Claudia Miller  34:32
And I'm sure that's every recruiter dream because it makes it so easy to want to fill those positions with top talent, right? Whereas at the other company, you would not want to be that recruiter. You're like you're literally scraping by like Where can I find someone? Because I personally I share with my clients I actually have a company or blacklist of companies have not to work for so when a client would say, Hey, I think I should work here. I was like You know what I do not recommend. And here's why. And I have different cases from past clients who running away from these companies because of these specific reasons. This company is just not set up for you to succeed, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  35:12
I mean, and obviously being, you know, in the recruiting world, I hear all the horror stories, I play, somebody plays a professional person somewhere, and then they call me six months later and go, Oh, my God, I need to tell you this. And I'm assuming that you didn't know. But you're probably not, I need a new job. And you're probably not going to want to place anybody else here. And it's and then, you know, as somebody who's putting their reputation on the line as being a premier recruiting firm, you go, Oh, yep, I don't care if I burn the bridge with the client. Because if that's really what's happening at this company, I'm not going to place anybody else there. Because I'm just going to end up placing somebody and having them come back to me six months later, and tell me that it's the most volatile place they've ever worked. And that's not you. That is not the reputation. That one I want to have, nor that my company that I represent wants to have, right. Yes, exactly. So yeah, I mean, companies need to one if they don't know what's happening. They're there. I mean, come on. You have a constant, you know, and I, it drives me crazy when people come to me and say, I have a hiring problem. And then I say, Well, how many people have you hired? And they say, Oh, 10. And I say, how many have left? Oh, eight. So you don't have a hiring problem. You have a retention problem? AKA you have a culture problem.
 
Claudia Miller  36:43
Yep. And what is happening now, that's a different strategy that requires different resources. Because to your point, I mean, you continue to hire and hiring, hiring. But if you're not fixing that back end, then what's the point and it costs, I mean, I forgot what the stat is. But it's like it could cost up to 40% of an employee's base salary, just to fill them plus the time you they need to get on board, which can be three to six months at a time, where as you had taken care of that employee, you save so much money. Plus, you're able to have the recruiter spend more time in other new jobs as opposed to refilling that position that just felt a few months ago.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:23
Right, and years ago, I think, I mean, this was years ago, the cost of training, the cost of onboarding, that it was anywhere from depending on the level of the position 10 to 30,000, you know, in just hiring a new employee to get them on boarded to get their benefits going to get their, you know, the work comp all of that up and running for each employee that they brought on. And then the training period, there was like a range depending on the date. That was a statistic years ago, I haven't really kept up on that. But it was like, so you're gonna waste like 10 to $30,000 per employee to get them up and running for them to walk out the door six months later, well, why are you doing that you're you're wasting, you might as well go and start a fire in the back of your business and just throw money on it, it would do better for you than what you're doing right now. Yep. It doesn't make any sense. Like, but if you want me to continue to just hire people for you and charge you a fee, and then take them back and place them somewhere better. Okay, I suppose. Let me just let them know that in six months, I'm going to be re, you know, placing him somewhere else. But I mean, no, sorry. That's bad joke. Okay, we've gone off on a tangent. So I want to talk to you a little bit about you, you're you have a podcast? Yes, I do. Tell me a little bit about that.
 
Claudia Miller  38:43
It's called roadmap to the executive suite. So I created a podcast with the intention of demystifying what it means to be a woman in an executive role and how to get there. So I felt that a lot of times when I was speaking to clients, they would say, Well, I don't know if I want to be the executive suite, I want to be able to spend time with family. I don't want to be always working. And I kind of want to test it out. I know I have some clients that are executives and like, I don't hear that. They're probably you're just as stressed as they are. But sometimes it might be the job or it's just the wrong company that you're at. And so I created the pockets. I bring in executives, I bring in recruiters, executive recruiters and really ask them to be transparent and candid, like tell me a little bit more how would you recommend and also helping them move through their career to help them get there if they even want to make it to the executive suite? Because it's not everyone's golden dream and I told her respect that but maybe you want to make it all the way to the senior director level or a director position. Well, then the podcast is meant to help you get there and really have a really true good understanding and that way you have the all the information you need to decide how far do you want to take your career.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:55
Awesome. And it's that's that's great. I love it. because you're right, people think that the higher level, the higher up they get, the more pressure, the more responsible it is, the more responsibilities that you have. But that does not mean that you're sacrificing. It doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice your work life balance, it just simply means that you need to work for a company that understands what your expectations are of the job. And if they don't match yours. Well, then you just you're, that's not the right role for you.
 
Claudia Miller  40:31
Exactly, yeah, I have clients that are the executive suite, and they tell their boss and whoever their employees, between the hours of two to four, I'm with my family, I'm picking up my kids, and I'm spending time with them. And I'll be back on it's between six to eight. And you know, that's how they make up their time. And everyone's okay with it, the company is profitable, they're still doing really well, and that my client is even more loyal now. Because their company supports them. And they're able to do this and have that flexibility.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:02
Yeah. Well, that's awesome. That's, that's absolutely amazing. You've also been featured on in multiple times in Forbes, MSN VC, which was in this was, you know, I do it when I did your bio. But I mean, that's, that's pretty awesome. I'm wildly impressed. So tell me, you know, when you start working with a company, what is the very first thing that you start off with?
 
Claudia Miller  41:36
Making sure what the goal objective is? What is the goal objective? Because that or the scope of work? Because that would dictate everything kind of to your point? Oh, we have a hiring problem. What is your goal? I'm looking to, you know, move more women into senior leadership roles. Okay, we that's the goal. Everything else moving forward is going to dictate that. Tell me what is your leadership and talent pipeline look like? Why don't have one. Okay. How many of your employees right now are in the management level that are women? We don't know what we need to collect that data. You know, who are how many positions out there? Do you have open fill positions? And how many of those have you looked into? Can the person right now in that role fill that role? We haven't done that we just post the job and put it externally and internally. All right. So it's just that goal dictates the entire strategy? And if sometimes they don't have the metrics, well, then let's get those metrics. That way we can fully evaluate. And again, the goal is to move more women into senior leadership roles. Let's start internal. Who do we have? And if they don't have the executive presence, but maybe they have the expertise, well, we could help them build that executive presence, we can help them brand rebrand themselves as leaders, because sometimes it's just a little bit of rebranding need it like, for example, I had an insurance company hire me because their IT department, they have a lot of people that the average tenure, or the least the youngest tenure will be 10 years, on average, most of the employees have been there for 1520 years. So they like to retain their employees. But they kept seeing a gap when it came to director positions. And ideally they like to hire from within. Now, they're like, We know that some of them can kind of sort of do it. But we don't know if because they don't know how to sell themselves, or because they truly don't know how to do it, can you coach them, and then we can help decipher that. All they needed to do was help them sell themselves and rebrand themselves. And this is for the IT department. So they're not salespeople. So of course, they don't know how to sell themselves, so worked with them, and helping them rebrand themselves as that leader, director position, show them how to truly sell themselves and how to communicate as a director. Now all of a sudden, they were able to fill in a lot of those director positions were very highly qualified people who now know how to sell themselves and portray themselves as leaders. And it was a win win scenario for both the company and for their employees. And now they started developing and growing that into kind of like their talent pipeline. So now they can go in through this training program. And now they have a good source of talent where they can say, hey, we have these positions available. We have these people or our employees that are already prepped and ready to go. They just need to be placed. And now they're even increasing their retention. And most of their employees now are even more willing to be loyal to them because they know there's upward mobility for them.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:32
Right? That's awesome. And it's obviously, again, I go back to I'm in the recruiting world in the hiring world, and there are definitely certain types of individuals that, you know, I'm a salesperson, I can go into an interview and I could probably sell you on the fact that I would be great in any role, even though I have no experience if I really wanted to That's what I do for a living. So, but then there are people who have an extremely brilliant background, but they can't seem to get a sentence out during an interview because now you've got nerves. They're, they're introverts. And you're putting him on the spot, and I'll have clients call me and be like, oh, oh, this interview didn't go well. I mean, it was it was horrible. And I'm like, Okay, wait, wait, let's back up. I'm like, Why didn't it go? Oh, well, he just, he or she could they just couldn't, you know, articulate anything. And I'm like, okay. But do you need them to articulate to that? Well, no. Okay. So hard skills. Do they have? Yeah, oh, yeah. He's got all the does this person have to speak to client? No. Okay. So personality wise, total introvert, but that's the job. Well, yeah. Okay. So what's the problem? Yeah, like, but and that's, it's true. I mean, there are some people that just that in there are some jobs and I remember my first two are through an accounting firm, all CPAs all tax all. And I'm an extrovert, I walk up to people and I shake hands, and, and it was the most uncomfortable. Again, I'm not trying to pick on him. I am kind of my best friends and accountant. But it was it was one of the most uncomfortable because here I am, like, ready to be like, Hey, hi. Oh, and everybody's just like, Yeah, hi. And then just goes back to what they're doing. And I'm like, Oh, my God, that's personality. Right? You know, we're not all we're not all designed to, and,  we can't be.
 
Claudia Miller  46:59
And I think you brought up a great point, because that's something that I always try to take into account. Because, one, I do feel like it's the employees responsibility to say, Hey, I know I'm an introvert, I don't know how to do this. But I do want to move up the career ladder, I need to start getting better those soft skills, whether it's presenting myself as a leader, or as that director, I need to probably rebrand myself, they need to come across and I need to do to almost speak at a different frequency. Because when you interview as a manager is very different how you interview as individual contributor, director and the C suite. So there's different frequencies and how you present yourself. But it's also the company's responsibility. And I think you mentioned this at the beginning, where it was not all managers have management training, we want to be able to say, hey, I want you to be able to sell yourself because I want you to communicate with us all the great work that you've done, not only so that we can promote you and take care of you, but sometimes that can be used for sales, marketing, that can be other assets that can be used to let's help each other help each other. So I do think that that's a responsibility of both parties. And ideally, like, you start to building that strong, robust, high performing talent, and then they don't have to be the best sellers. Because they're, you're not hiring them to become like the number one salesperson, you know, if they're like in other departments that doesn't require that but at least to be able to feel comfortable enough to sell themselves within the organization and showing them that skill set that allows your company to be even more successful.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:36
Yeah, and so across the board, and I'm not talking about C suite I'm not talking about but across the board, I think the number is 8% 8% of people who are promoted within to mid level management position, have management training, the rest are promoted and are not given management training. Right? That is, that was the number I'm not sure maybe that has gone up over the last year or two because of everything that has transpired. But at the time that I had last looked that up, it was only 8% of the people who are moved into management and I'm not talking again, this is not taking into account C suite or and that number is I mean, it's it's painful to even think that you leave them you're basically setting them up to fail. If you're getting no management training. You're basically yeah, I mean, no wonder you have so many individuals just kind of lay out Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do, but I don't know if I'm saying it in the right way or so. Yeah, okay. There is a definitely a great need for mentors and coaches and training to go into these organizations. And part of it is that there there is a lack of time for a lot of organizations, especially now we have a huge gap in in in employees to go into the open jobs that we have. Companies are struggling at every I mean, you go into a restaurant and even restaurants don't have the employees, the half the half the restaurants empty, and you're sitting there waiting for 15 minutes to get your table because they don't have the staff. So this is happening at every business across the United States, well, really probably in the world because of what has transpired. So it's a, it's an interesting world. But I love that you are working with women. And I love that you are working with women of color, because those are definitely two areas that are are in need of coaching and in need of, I shouldn't say in need of coaching, I should say. They need to be recognized. And people need to stop overlooking the fact that women are just as experienced and are just as capable of doing the jobs that anybody else is doing, or anybody else is capable of doing.
 
Claudia Miller  51:12
And they're bringing higher ROI.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:17
And that, so we are we are coming to time. So I want to ask you the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself.
 
Claudia Miller  51:32
I would probably go give myself advice. Maybe around 11 or 12 or so. And here's the kind of like a philosophy or model that I live by now. But I hadn't heard of that, you know, when I was 11, or 12. But it's like, do what others won't to achieve what others can't. So sometimes like, just because it's hard right now, doesn't mean it's not worth it. And sometimes if you want to achieve excellence, you have to put in the work. And sometimes it will require giving up some things but then you will get to achieve something that others just are not even willing to be able to get to. Because they're not putting willing to put in the work.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:15
And why that particular age.
 
Claudia Miller  52:19
I think that that's when I started kind of like, I think like that's the age that I started coming to like who am I? And what should I do now, I've always been a straight A student. And I'm an extrovert. So I would say I've always been like really good with grades. But that's when I started at the time, I thought well, I want to become like an architect or something. But I think that's like a prime age where I like I almost started being conscious of like my surroundings and what I wanted to be and who I was where I was trying to find myself. Now more of thinking of we don't find ourselves, we recreate ourselves. So who do I want to be? Let's create that person and what I need to do to create it. But I say that that would be the age and that would be my advice.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:05
That's awesome. And wow, you were you were an early I don't know the rights. You started at a at an early age trying to discover yourself because honestly, I didn't discover myself until I was probably in my mid 20s. But to be that driven and start to become that conscious of of things, at that young of an age is amazing. And you are completely correct. If there are any young, younger adults listening to this. What you said is that we don't you said not become ourselves but create. Yes, yes, that is that is absolutely. Spot on. Brilliant. I truly believe that the world doesn't come to me. I go to it. And I need it head on at every corner at every stop. And yeah, that's that's absolutely beautiful. So well. Yeah. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Claudia Miller  54:14
They can go to my website, Claudia t miller.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn, and Instagram, Claudia T. Miller, I post a lot of free career advice in there, as well as you know, some strategies on how to improve overall like what systems are set up for within companies that allow women to thrive and move into senior leadership roles but they can learn and hear more about me through those three avenues.
 
Leighann Lovely  54:40
Excellent. And that'll be also on the show notes. So if you didn't catch it here, you're welcome to jump into the show notes and it will be listed there. So Claudia, thank you so much for the conversation today. I truly enjoyed talking with you. You're a brilliant woman, and I know that you are out there inspiring other brilliant women. You No, so thank you.
 
Claudia Miller  55:01
Thanks for having me, Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  55:05
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day
 
Contact Claudia
 
LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudiatmiller/
 
E-mail – claudia@claudiatmiller.com
 
Website – claudiatmiller.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
employees, company, hiring, women, job, people, clients, coaching, senior leadership roles, director, position, created, work, day, organizations, recruiter, office, training, thrive, Claudia

Episode 22 - William Toti - Navy Veteran, Autor and Heroic Leader

William Toti is an amazing man that has dedicated his life to service, first the military, and now to helping others find a better way to transition out of the military into the civilian world. William made a profound statement, Stop Saying “Thank You for Your Service”, if it causes you to treat your veteran employees differently. Let’s be clear this does not mean to stop saying it, but rather take time to understand your employees instead of using a blanket statement. William is a hero, and one that continues to be one in many people’s eyes.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Captain William Toti, retired US Navy has more than 26 years of service in the US Navy and 15 years in industry cumulating in a role as CEO of a defense company. Today, he continues his journey as a sought after consultant and authority on topics of military transition into industry, the monstrous September 11, 2001 terrorist attack on the Pentagon, and the unforgettable stories of World War Two cruiser USS Indianapolis and her heroic crew. William, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have this conversation.
 
William Toti  01:49
I'm excited to be here Leighann. Thank you for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:52
So why don't you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
William Toti  01:56
Wow! Well, I joined the Navy at age 17. Wanting to become an astronaut that didn't quite work out. I ended up at the Naval Academy, after less than a year of being enlisted and graduated in 1979 went into submarines actually did make kind of a false move the astronaut thing I got nominated in 1987 and failed the physical. So I had to return to submarine duty, which was fine. I had a great career in submarines ended up commanding a submarine, USS Indianapolis was commodore of submarine squadron three in Pearl Harbor, and had a great Navy career made the transition industry in 2006. And boy, was it eye opening.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:39
Wow. So you went from wanting to be in space to bring in water
 
William Toti  02:47
Underwater years of my life underwater, it was very different. Wow, it's actually much more like space than you can imagine. I used to tease my astronaut friends, the ones didn't get kicked out that, you know, we we the differential pressure on a submarine is one atmosphere every 33 feet. So if you're four feet down, that's many many atmospheres. Space, only one atmosphere, you can't get more differential pressure than that because going to a vacuum to one atmosphere. So the submarine is actually in a much harsher environment than a spacecraft.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:23
Wow, that's a fact that I did not know. Yeah, that's very, very interesting. That's, that's absolutely amazing. So I I've always had this like, idealistic, you know, image of what it would be like to be underwater. However, I also have this like utter fear of being in an enclosed space. So you've got to walk me through like, what was it like your first time going? You know, under,
 
William Toti  03:52
I do remember going to sleep for the very first time and the bunks on submarines are very small, you got maybe two feet between your face and the hull above your top bunk. Bunk. And so two feet above you is the hull. And I remember on the other side of that bit of steel, there are hundreds of feet of water and all that pressure that's above you that, you know just I remember laying there thinking about that. But I was so tired. I just went straight to sleep. People who volunteer for submarine duties tend not to have issues with this stuff. So and it's all volunteer you can't be forced, right? So it wasn't a real issue for me. I do remember that one thought put it to bed and you know decade of submarine duty and never had an issue with it
 
Leighann Lovely  04:44
right. Oh my god that I don't know that I could even get myself to walk in a submarine when it was above water i that.
 
William Toti  04:53
We did have. I did have one experience when I was captain where we had a Senate staffer. come on board for Right. And as soon as we shut the hatches, she freaked out to the point where Mike Corman had had kind of drugged her and had to calm her down to get her to because she wanted to climb out the hatch. And we couldn't let her do that. So we had to turn around, go back in is out of Pearl Harbor, go back in and drop her off. It was the only time in like I said over a decade of submarine duty where that ever happened.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:25
Right? Oh, my gosh. Right. I I, as much as I'm sure that somebody can set themselves up for like, this is what's going to happen. You don't know how you're actually going to react when? When you physically are in that situation? Yep. Interesting. So okay, so you did you were in your in for 26 years? Is that correct? That's right. Awesome. And now I'm
 
William Toti  05:47
fast.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:48
It did. 20
 
William Toti  05:51
Went fast. I never intended to stay in the Navy, that long. Classes 79. Our commitment after we graduated from Annapolis was over an 84, 1984. And our kind of our motto was out the door and 84 we thought we would all be leaving the Navy as soon as our commitment was up. But I was given another really good assignment to go to graduate school. And it for free, right? And then another good assignment, and then another one and another one. And suddenly, oh, I'm Captain. Now I can't leave. Right. That's, that's really cool. And it just turned out where suddenly I was in my mid 40s. And I said, Holy cow, out of that go that fast? If I don't transition industry now, I won't have enough time in my life left for real second career. Right, which is why I decided, okay, this has been good. But I do want to have a full second career in industry. I gotta move now. And that's what caused me to jump when I did.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:54
So tell me about that. I mean, you spent basically, you know, two decades? Plus, plus, yeah, as a military man, in conditions that the majority of I would say, not the majority, almost nobody in civilian life could possibly understand because this is not the you know, the, the path you chose is not for the faint of heart. As I think we just kind of dove into a little bit. They're not extremely deep, but it's not for the faint of heart. I mean, you're living in, in a steel tube underwater,
 
William Toti  07:33
with a nuclear reactor in that steel tube. Right, exactly. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:38
You can't, you can't not be 100% aware of everything you're doing at every moment of your career. So now you're transitioning into civilian into the civilian world?
 
William Toti  07:54
Well, it was it was an enormous transition way more difficult than I thought it would be. The military gives you transition training, they're required by law, actually, to give you trans transition training, as you get out, and you assume I'll speak personally, I assumed that the transition training was valid and good. And it turns out, it was just short of horrible, it misleads you in a whole bunch of different ways. And this is why I spend so much time talking to companies and HR professionals these days. Because my point is, there are great attributes that that veteran employees going to bring the company. But there's a whole bunch of things, that the veteran employee may think they know that they really don't, that might set them up for failure, if the company isn't sensitive to it, and the strategy of throwing them into the deep end and hoping they can figure out how to swim is not going to work. And so what I try to do is help a company training teams, company, HR professionals, understand what the glue the military veteran will and will not bring to their civilian job, and help them understand how to close the gaps. And this is one of the reasons I ended up writing my book, from CO to CEO because in my 16 year journey in industry, I started out as a director ended up as CEO. I saw 1000s of military employees and I saw way too many of them fail. And the failures, I was one of the first to see, oh my I almost failed in my transition. And so the lessons were repeatable. I mean, this failures were occurring, for the same reasons over and over and over again. And so what I tried to do is write all those things down, starting with what I call the Great Lie. And the great lies is told to veterans as a leading military, which is in the transition trainers will tell them, you know, you've already been a leader in the military, and all your civilian company wants from you, is good leadership. And if you can provide that level of leadership in your future job, you'll do just fine. And that's actually very bad advice. Because what it does is it sets the veteran up with an inappropriate degree of confidence, number one, that the kind of leadership they might have exerted on active duty, translates to industry, and it often doesn't. And number two, the reason I call it the great lie, is, it's certainly not all your future employer is going to want from you good leadership. You know, and it's not even true in the military. If it was true in the military, I could take a b 52, Wing Commander and put them in command a submarine. And as long as he's a good leader, it would have worked. But we know that's not the case. Right? And, and in industry, you actually need to know something about what you're doing to succeed, and good leadership is not gonna help you,
 
Leighann Lovely  11:09
right? Well, I guess here's the question, who is training the veterans who are transitioning into civilian into the civilian world,
 
William Toti  11:19
sadly, people who don't know what they're talking about, they're going to people don't get me wrong, are the contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder. And just like anytime that happens, you bid teachers that you can, that will allow you to pay them a low wage, to win the contract. And those teachers are not going to have the kind of experience necessary to actually know what they're talking about.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:47
I mean, you would think that the people who are training those people should be people like you.
 
William Toti  11:53
But they couldn't afford people like me to contract. And so it's systemic, these failures. And that's the point I make. All of these failures are systemic, the military is required by law to give the training, but the law doesn't require it to be good training, right. So they check the block, and then they, and then the veteran, ends up joining the company. And they might exhibit bad leadership behaviors, in which case, HR is gonna say, what do we do about this now? And what I also find is, non veteran managers are afraid to have those difficult conversations with their veteran employees, because they think, Who am I to tell this guy who commanded a company and in the army, that he's not exhibiting good leadership behaviors? Right, right. He's, he's not going to take that well. So rather than have that conversation with him, they let them fail. Right? So it's easier,
 
Leighann Lovely  12:54
Right? I mean, if there's no denying that, that there are many veterans who have been left out in the cold, limited support, I have seen it in my career, somebody who is in staffing, we have veterans who come to us, I'm struggling to find a job, I'm struggling to find a position in the civilian world that translates to what I was doing in the military. I have a ton of experience, but I don't know what that role looks like in the civilian world.
 
William Toti  13:24
Because in many, MOS is in many military, you know, training qualification professional qualifications do not translate well, right to civilian industry. In 2011, I was assigned to a White House working group on certifying military, people for civilian industry. And it was President Obama's initiative, and is very proud to be part of this working group. But it was easy for some fields like it, and medicine for corpsman medics to get an EMT and paramedic certification, some of them translated very, very well. But then there were other disciplines in the military, there was absolutely no civilian analog for what are you going to do with infantryman? Right? What's professional certification is that person going to make so they're absolutely coping skills, you know, as we say, in the military, but people who've gone through our deployments, understand how to embrace the suck. So nothing the company is going to throw at them is going to, you know, faze them, right, you're gonna be able to put up with the hardship, there'll be fine. So there's great coping skills which are useful, but those skills by themselves aren't enough.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:49
Right? Right. No, and to your point somebody who's an infantry it's it's extremely sad that they were very well respected in the military and then you find them years later working for minimum wage at a factory and you're like, is this what we're, we're telling our veterans that is is available to them when they transition into civilian life?
 
William Toti  15:12
Yeah. And one of the things I started saying to companies to employers is stop saying thank you for your service. And that surprises a lot of people coming from a veteran, because frankly, I like to hear people say that. So why am I saying that? It's an empty, vacuous remark, with nothing behind it, it makes the person saying it feel good. And it makes the person hearing it maybe feel good, too. But it doesn't do a thing. And I'm saying this only to employers. I'm not saying this to the general public, the general public, please do say thank you for service. But employers, it doesn't do a thing to help that military person become a better employee. In fact, if anything, it draws a broader line between the veteran employees and the non veteran employees. So rather than, say, this empty statement, do something meaningful, meaningful, it's going to help them transition into a better employee.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:13
That's really well said, because you're right in here, this made me think of a story. And this was not one of my employees. This is actually I was having a conversation. Obviously, I have a lot of conversations about HR. Sure. But somebody said to me, they were telling me a story about an employee that was working a veteran employee that was working at a company and they didn't know how to coach her. She was she was doing okay, on the job. But the manager came up to her and said, you know, some of the employees, she was managing a couple of people, some of the employees are struggling to work with you. We'd like you to smile more. And she, she was like, Okay, well, you know, I'm just doing my job, you know, you know, I'm just trying to that was their response to how we're going to coach her. Why don't you smile more?
 
William Toti  17:10
RIght
 
Leighann Lovely  17:10
and again, eventually, they ended up letting her go, because that was the feedback they gave, we want you to smile, more people will respond to you better.
 
William Toti  17:23
This is exactly the problem. The company rather than treating, treating the veteran, just like any other employee, treats them differently, right? Would you say that to a non veteran employee, and then once so there's a differentiation in the kind of feedback the manager and HR gives to the veteran employee. And then there's a much higher probability that rather than giving them meaningful coaching, and feedback, like they would do with any other employee, and the performance reviews, they basically say, just gonna let them fail. And people wonder why the veteran suicide rate is so high and, and why there's so much stress and transition anxiety for veterans. These are exactly the reasons these things happen.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:16
Right? I don't know, if there's, if there is a assumed, like your, your, your military person, you, you should know how to do this. Or if it's a fear in the HR, what you were saying of? Well, I don't want to insult them, because they are because they are a veteran, but we're talking about two completely different two different disciplines. Military, which is an extremely structured, extremely, you understand you were not only trained in your MOS you were, you were trained in the disciplines of the military through basic training. And then you continue to get training and continue to get very clear, concise expectations of your job on a regular basis. If you just wanna, I mean, it's so when I'm assuming when this veteran and again, I say I'm assuming, because I don't know, some of my listeners know that I you know, served but I did not serve very long and that was over 20 plus years ago. So, I never experienced any of this I was, you know, so I am
 
William Toti  19:33
I mentioned that I almost failed in my first job. Happily, my, my boss, my boss's boss, actually, who was my mentor. Had that really difficult conversation with me. In fact, remember the words the exact words he used was, Bill, you're screwing this up. That was the best thing he could have ever said to me. And in the counseling that followed. One of the things he said was So I put this in my book, right? You need to learn how to live with ambiguity. And that was a concept that never occurred to me. I was a, I was a captain of a submarine. It was it was either, you know, it was black, or it was white, there were no Shades of Grey, we're gonna it's right or it's wrong. There's the chain of command, you follow the chain of command, I was Commodore, the same thing. Learn to live with ambiguity was a concept that was foreign to me. But that one simple expression, taught me so much. And reset my kind of frame of reference, in ways allowed me to turn it around and succeed where I'd been failing.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:44
I have, right that. And that's, that's an extremely powerful point. There is no ambiguity in the military.
 
William Toti  20:55
Well, there is, but we we try to pretend there is. I try to turn ambiguity into certainty. Yes. So we're gonna make a decision, what is you know, and it's kind of like that. The notion of in fact, I talk about, you know, situational leadership and the book, you know, in some, and I do, imply, in the book, I don't name which services are better than others, but some transitioning, some people transitioning from what some services, some military services, understand that, you know, situational leadership concept better than other military services, and let people let your listeners decide which services are more regimented, and which are more kind of flexible and adaptable. But there's truth to that. And when I was in the process of hiring people, I consider that, you know, and I would say to people who I knew, were coming from a background, whether it'd be excessively regimented, I would have that conversation with them. And I would say, you understand now that this is a different environment. And what you what worked for you a great book, I refer to every everybody to What Got You Here Won't Get You There is the title of the book. And I refer that book to everybody from the military that are higher. And I would say, your success will depend on your degree of adaptability, right? This is before I wrote my own book in order for them to my point, but anyway, but that is just absolutely. HR people, hiring managers, and managers need to understand that, that is, the biggest thing they can help their veterans do is understand the concept of situational leadership. You know, the need to kind of get immersed in the success profile of a company, which is going to be very different. And the need to help the veteran understand the mission, because veterans are always going to be very mission oriented. And when you're on active duty, it's easy to understand the mission defending the country, when you join a company, cynical veterans start thinking, Well, my mission now is to put money in my boss's pocket. That's not the mission, right? That is not the mission. But it may not be obvious to the veteran, but that's not the mission. And so company's goal can go a long way, by helping the veteran understand what the real mission is.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:35
And how many companies do you think actively try to understand and really help these veterans I mean, with the companies that you've spoken with it because again, I work with, and I will and I see all the time, you know, veteran friendly, or, you know, veterans wanted, but then often, and there's one company, and obviously, I'm not going to name names, but there's one company that oh, we're veteran friendly, we're veteran friendly, but they they don't make any attempt to do anything differently with those individuals.
 
William Toti  24:19
Companies that consider themselves veteran friendly can recite to you how many veterans they hire in a given year. So ask them, Okay, how many veterans that you hired are still with you after five years? And they fail open? They have no idea. And so they unless you can answer that question, and unless the number and percentage, it compares to the percentage of non vets that have are still with you after five years, you're not veteran friendly, and answer the question about which companies do a good job. The default wisdom would say, well, the defense companies because they are the closest to the veteran community. You're the Active Duty community. And the truth is, defense companies are more likely to pigeonhole veterans into business development like positions. And, like propagates like. So people think that that's where the veterans belong. They belong to those business development. I wasn't. I went into p&l, which was a high risk, high reward, right? Transition from active duty, but it worked out for me. It doesn't work out for a lot of people. But the defense companies tend to pigeonhole veterans in those business development positions. And then the veterans in the business development positions, think that other veterans that they hire ought to come into business development, and they end up like, not assimilating their veterans, often, as well, as a company that's not a defense company. It says, well, we got talent here. What? Where can we best use this talent? We're not selling to military. So that doesn't make sense. It put them in sales. So where can we best use them? And as long as they go in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the veterans that their employees are employing, which is why I recommend that company managers read my book as well, then they're going to do fine.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:21
So tell me about your book. Okay.
 
William Toti  26:24
The book is titled, from CO to CEO, A Practical Guide for Transitioning from Military to Industry Leadership. Now, because it describes my journey from commanding officer CO, to Chief Executive Officer of Spartan Corporation, CEO. And it when you read the book, it's written, as me talking to veterans are thinking of transitioning out of the military. When I wrote it, though, I had in mind that this would be a book that non veteran, you know, corporate managers, HR people ought to read. And when you read it, what you're, what you're going to the experience you're going to get is one, veteran counseling and other it's like you're listening into that conversation, and you're listening to me tell those veterans, here's what you're going to be good at. Here's what you're going to screw up, if you're not careful. And so I think it gives insight into corporate leaders who haven't served as to what the strengths of those veteran employees are going to be, and what weaknesses need to be mitigated. You want to make the veteran, a successful employee,
 
Leighann Lovely  27:33
Right? You know, this reminds me and I'm not comparing these two by any means. So please, I don't want anybody to think, Oh, she's comparing. But this reminds me I interviewed a while back some individuals who work with people who are previously incarcerated coming into society. And there's, there's similarities in the sense that obviously, not similarities, in fact, that one person was in prison, and the other person was in the military at all. But there are similarities in the sense that when somebody is coming out of the military, back into society, or into civilian life, and somebody is coming out of prison into civilian life, there there's you can draw similarities in the sense that military and in prison, you have structure that no longer have in civilian life, there are certain things that all of the sudden, you as an individual have to remember about, just daily living, moving from it, especially if you're, you know, living on a military base full time. And, you know, you're got your wake up call, every morning, you got your three square meals at the same time, every single day, you've got everything you need, basically on that military base, and then all of a sudden, you're thrust into just having to have an alarm clock hafting to do you know, and then from obviously, from prison, again, everything is, you know, completely designed for you those similarities, all of a sudden, you can you can draw some and you would think that, as a society, we would get smarter about that. We have groups for AAA, we have groups for why aren't we? Why aren't we setting up places where individuals can go and meet and be like, Okay, here's what I'm struggling with. I'm, you know, I just recently came out of, you know, active duty, just want to come and have a conversation with all of my fellow veterans who are in this area and talk about what are you struggling with? What are you struggling and be able to talk through some of those things on a personal level because it's not just about a job. It's also can be, what are you struggling with family issues because these things, especially people who have been deployed, people who have been in war zones, people who have, I mean, it goes so much deeper and so much, you know, psychologically, the those things too, you would think that we would have, you know, a landing pad that goes far beyond just, Okay, here's your walking papers enjoy life.
 
William Toti  30:27
And well, it's funny, you mentioned that because I did have a veteran once say to me, there ought to be a halfway house for people transitioning out an author. He didn't say we're like prisoners, but you know, the, the concept is the same. It's the what you're trying to say, yes, our local groups, the veterans administration tries to do this, but they're overwhelmed. They're way overwhelmed their local groups, the VFW, and groups like that will have gatherings that try to help people and there are other organizations like the Military Officers Association of America, and organizations like that, that do try to have gatherings of people that are in the process of transitioning to help them talk through issues. Employers can help to though, because, you know, when I was growing up in the mid 2000s, in my first industry job, we had these things called employee resource groups, or ERGs. And we had them for Black Engineers, and America, you know, we had one for American Indian, you know, employees, and things like that. Did not have one for veterans. Interesting, right. Right. We were not seen as one of those d&i groups. But in fact, we should be veterans should be thought of as a diversity inclusion group, because there is a transition, they have similar transition challenges. It can be aided by, you know, a kind of a transition process. And so I do encourage companies to create your GES for veteran employees, just like they would for, you know, other groups
 
Leighann Lovely  32:15
Right. Now. I absolutely, that's, I mean, that should be one of the first it frustrates me that the very people who are defending our country are the people who are thought of last,
 
William Toti  32:31
yeah, yeah. We get used to that, though, don't we? Again, and that's why, again, that's part of the message with stop saying thank you for your service, and start to saying something that's meaningful, right? So doing something that's meaningful, you really want to thank them, help them in their transition process. And so that's the message I try to leave with companies.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:54
Right. So you work with window companies typically engage you? And you know, how do they engage you and you know,
 
William Toti  33:04
The engine of intergroup interaction in 2022 is LinkedIn. So they find me on LinkedIn, and they say, Hey, look, we're trying to revise our veteran transition and training curriculum for new employees. Would you, you know, would you be willing to help that kind of thing? And I to date, I've been doing all this kind of work, pro bono. As my, as the demand signal increases? I don't know how much longer I'll be able to do, because just simply because of matter of who do you help the most? I mean, first, there's an inclination that I'll help companies with higher numbers, because he can affect more people with, you know, the same footprint or same engagement time. But But again, I haven't reached that point yet.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:54
Wow, you've this has all been pro bono, that you've been assisting companies? And
 
William Toti  33:59
yes, yeah, no, it's one of the things I I don't say much. But I wrote this book, at my own cost is spent years, two years writing it, and paid a lot of money. And it was a hybrid publication, where the publisher paid part and I paid for. And everything I'm doing is never not doing this to make money. Obviously, I'm doing it to try to give back. But the effect will never break even on the thing. But But it's so important, right? I'm trying to put my time where my mouth is and do give us give back. And I'm happy to help companies improve their veteran transition training. You know, if they're serious about it, and I do want to make sure they're serious about it before I'm willing to keep to engage because there are companies that are serious, and I want to spend my time what's going to do the most good,
 
Leighann Lovely  34:57
Right? No, that's and that's absolutely I mean, that is absolutely positively amazing. Because like I said earlier, like you've said, there are so many veterans out there. And my, my partner at my day job, her husband is a military man. She, you know, I've seen her travel around. Because he gets relocated, and she's, you know, and he is, he's navy. So he's, you know, out there and
 
William Toti  35:32
Family, my family moved 15 times that active duty career. Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  35:37
so let's do so she right now she's in San Diego. And she's hoping to actually make her way back to back around to, you know, this area where I'm at. But, again, she, because she has that connection, and she understands as a recruiter, she's able to help translate some of the military or veteran people. What they've done in the military to the civilian, you know, the civilian world, unfortunately, you know, after you do that step, it's, you know, you send them to an employer, and, and then you have to step back and say, Okay, I hope this employer is going to be, you know, able to, you know, help them and, and I've seen, you know, I've sent some people to companies where they had, they were, let me see, they had the automatic nail guns, the individual walked into the facility, and people were using nail guns, and I think he practically ran out the door, because, again, this person was in a combat situation. And I don't know if you've ever heard Neil guns going off, it sounds just like a sure it sounds just like a gun. You know, so I have, I've personally seen the effects of just sending individuals to interviews, or seeing individuals in jobs or hearing the stories of individuals looking for jobs, because they, they're struggling to find ones that translate to what they've done, or, you know, being fired because they didn't smile too much, or they didn't smile enough, you know, in my heartbreaks, because, again, these individuals signed up. And no matter what they did, they still signed up and put their, you know, potentially could have put their life on the line to defend our country. And now we're being left out in the cold with that limited amount of support when they're ready to transition back into civilian life. And that, to me, is not acceptable.
 
William Toti  37:46
I agree. I worked with a lot of headhunters in my industry career. And I found myself spending a lot of time with the head owners to train them on how to how to train the candidates that they were working with. And if I spent some time doing that now, as well, I won't say that I doing that pro bono for it, because I think Heidrick and struggles can afford me. But anyway, the point I'm making is my challenge to the headhunters, you've sent me a candidate, I heard him and then boom, you're nowhere to be found when they turn out not to work out. And I expect you to be invested in this in this candidate, right. And in order to do that, you need to understand how to truly measure how you know what they're going to their probability of success in the role. And so I'm happy to help you evaluate military candidates and help you prepare the military candidates for civilian life, because the government is not going to do it. And again, that's the way I pound the table. When I talk to companies, I'm gonna say you, you think you're gonna get somebody that's ready to transition to your company. And they're not right, the government is failing in that mission. Right? So it's up to you.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:12
And now is the time that we are lacking people to go to work, we're lacking skilled people to go to work, right. And these individuals want to go to work. And I gotta tell you, the military has a pretty strict policy about no showing your job. These are going to be individuals who show up every day. Absolutely. There. I mean, so if you want an individual who's going to show up, put forth the effort every single day, and really is hungry to go to work and provide for their family. This is the kind of candidate that you want. Now, are they going to come with maybe a little bit of baggage or a little bit of extra training? Because they're transitioning? Yeah, you may have to put a little effort in up Front.
 
William Toti  40:01
Yeah, I would characterize it as things that might need to be unlearned. Absolutely. But you're you've got to exactly right. They're gonna have wonderful attributes that you won't find when you hire somebody off the street. Right. Okay, that comes with a counterpoint that they may not, not will, but may add things that need to be unlearned. And as long as you understand that and help them online it, it's going to work out great.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:26
Yep. Yeah, no, I, and it, like I said, it's a, it's a pain point and a frustration for me. And obviously, for you, otherwise, you wouldn't be on this mission, you wouldn't have written this book, you wouldn't be, you know, talking about this. And so yeah, this is a great topic that needs to be talked about more and employers need to, to invest in an understanding what this means. So yeah, so again, the book is from CO to CEO, a practical guide for transitioning from military to industry leadership. So check out that book, I am going to check that out, too. So yeah, so we are we are coming pretty close to time. But I want to get in the, the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
William Toti  41:23
Geez, I think I would go back to my 17 year old self and say, accept the fact you're not going to be an astronaut. But your life is going to be terrific anyway. So just embrace it, and drive forward with as much vigor as you can.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:40
That's, that's awesome. Now I got to ask someone, you were 17 years old when you went in? Yes. Did you come from a military family?
 
William Toti  41:49
Oh, so not at all. Okay,
 
Leighann Lovely  41:52
So now I enlisted at 17 My parents had to send me away. So I got what what what made you decide that the military life was for you?
 
William Toti  42:02
Well, I mean, truth is in the 1970s. And the Vietnam War was still going on. My mother was dead set against this. Now the Vietnam War was winding down. And the draft had just ended. And she said, I've been worried all these years about you getting drafted and draft ends, and you enlist. So she went crazy. But the truth was, I couldn't afford any of the colleges I wanted to get into. Right? I wanted to high end college. And we lived in Youngstown, Ohio, outside of Youngstown, Ohio. I didn't want to go to Youngstown State that was all I could afford. And so the military provided, right. And so I was very happy about that. And, you know, in those days, that was the only way to become an astronaut to write you needed to be a military pilot. And so that was kind of part of the plan. So it all came together. And it worked out.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:54
So I What movie is that? I can't think I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here looking at you. And I'm picturing us at this young William with you know, dressing up, there's a movie and I can't think of what it is the the, the little boy who's you know, putting on the astronaut, you know, costume and staring at the stars. And you know, I'm sorry, I know i'm on a tangent.
 
William Toti  43:16
That's pretty much what the way I was right? During that tidy up description.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:20
Yeah, during that time, I think that was like the number one thing everybody wanted to be an astronaut.
 
William Toti  43:26
I was, you know, I think I was 11 or 12 when Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon, watch it live. And oil. Boy, that was a motivate. Thank God for that. Because it put a fire in my belly. I was a physics major with the academy, you know, to, to really do well in school, and to study hard. And, um, and it really set the stage for my life. So I think everybody needs something to motivate them. I'm sad for people who don't have that. Something that drives them. And for me, that's what it was.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:01
Okay, and here's one one more follow up quick show. So you go now you're in the deep, deep, I mean, how deep can you go and in a summaries
 
William Toti  44:13
It's classified but we say greater than 800 feet. Okay.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:17
So you had to have seen some crazy things. Right. So what is the craziest thing that you can you tell me what's the greatest, obviously doesn't have to be classified?
 
William Toti  44:30
Like craziest thing I can think of I cannot talk about. See, what's the craziest thing I can talk about? I'm not sure I know. As far as on a submarine, right, right. I was independent on a 911 Yeah, it wasn't crazy. It was very sad, right? Yeah. But you know, no, I can't think of anything. Crazy. The story I told you about the lady who went crazy after we shut the hatch. We weren't even submerged yet. That's probably the craziest thing. Because you can't tell. What's the hashCode shot you can't sell if you're underwater? Not, as far as you know, once you submerge it's not.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:10
I know, I have this idea in my head that like, oh, there's windows everywhere. No windows.
 
William Toti  45:15
No windows. Sorry. It's a worship. Glasses not good for worship.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:24
Somebody, hey, don't throw a rock, you might break the window. Yeah, that's terrible. And that's right. And that's to take this to a serious moment. You were you were at the Pentagon during September 11. My God, I don't even know how to. And this is the moment where I say, Thank you for your service. And, sir, I mean, deepest. Thank you for, you know, everything that you have been through and survived. And that's just I can't imagine the horrors of that day and and the people and every things that everybody experienced that is
 
William Toti  46:11
You do have a lot of survivor's guilt I lived in a lot of my friends didn't, but you get through it. And, you know, it was a tough day. And the days that followed, were equally tough. I was put in charge of the Navy's recovery effort on September 12. And so the days that followed were equally tough. But you know, I talk about it every year, around the anniversary, just so people remember, you know, I call the Pentagon, the forgotten 911. Everybody forgets that a plane hit us too. Because not as many people died. New York deserves the attention he gets. But to the families that lost loved ones in the Pentagon is no less. Project.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:54
Yeah, no. And that's, I'm, my heart goes out to do you and everybody that you lost and everybody that was involved in that. So okay, so wrapping up, if somebody wanted to reach out to you to, you know, talk with you about your book, or to reach out to you, you know, just how would they go about doing that?
 
William Toti  47:17
Well, they can, they can email me through my website and website is William toady, Tod, spelled t o ti.com. We am totally.com. And the book is available everywhere. It's an audio book, it's in, you know, Apple books, it's an it's on Amazon, Kindle everything. So it's easy to find. And you can email me via my website.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:39
Excellent. William, this has been such an amazing conversation. I think that you know, what you do and, you know, advocating for veterans is just an amazing thing. So I really appreciate that you took the time to come on and talk with me today.
 
William Toti  47:54
Well, thanks for having me. It's a very important subject. I'm so glad you're you're talking about it. So thank you.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:00
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
Contact William
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/williamtoti
E-mail – william@williamtoti.com
Wedsite – http://williamtoti.com  
Don't forget to check out his book - From CO to CEO, A Practical Guide for Transitioning from Military to Industry Leadership 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
veteran, military, people, transition, company, civilian, employees, submarine, understand, industry, book, navy, fail, employers, training, job, conversation, individuals, point, active duty

Episode 21 - John Robertson - Workforce Wellness Expert, Culture Alignment Specialist

Speaking with John not only made me laugh until I cried, but he also taught me a great deal. John is a brilliant man that founded FORTLOG Services. He is a coach, guide, and facilitator as well as the Author of Run Toward the Roar. John specializes in Workforce Wellness and Culture Alignment. This is a conversation that you should tune into!  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:07
I have the amazing privilege of speaking with John Robertson today. John is the founder and president of FORTLOG Services inspired and driven by his values, John acts as a facilitator, coach and guide for his clients as they trust, discover and expand what they can do, uses concrete, verifiable processes to help them achieve demonstratable solution focused results. remaining faithful to his passion and principles. John invests himself in his vocation without reservation, he provides spirit filled insightful guidance that his clients use to amplify their lives and their businesses. John truly provides leadership people can follow through storms. John, I am so excited to have you here to talk with me today. Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
John Robertson  02:06
Well, it's my pleasure to be here. And I'm looking forward to our conversation. And so John Robertson with FORTLOG Services. And one of the things that I do is, and I'm because I use personal examples. So I'm talking about what I do so that I can talk about the human being in a moment, but transforming traditional crisis response in workplaces and leveraging leadership that is trustable, followable, and respectable, even when they're not likable. And so one of the end because the event is never the real crisis, Leighann, this is becoming a huge significant impact on our well being on engagement, and so forth. And I've been doing it for 30 plus years, I got started in a small community, you know, I don't know if you know how small towns work. But everybody knows everybody, including some of the things that we shouldn't know. And a friend of mine called and said, My husband got really walloped psychologically at work, I need you to come and talk to him. And from there, it was just, you know, I like people, I care for people. And I'm not interested in fixing, diagnosing or stuff. So a little snippet of my background.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:26
So you said something that I find really, extremely fascinating is that the and I may get this verbiage wrong, but that the event is never the real crisis. Yes. So expand on on what you mean by that.
 
John Robertson  03:47
Well, perfect illustration happens in you and I are driving along in a vehicle and do you know what? Black ice is?
 
Leighann Lovely  03:56
yes
 
John Robertson  03:58
Okay, you and I hit black ice that that your pickup truck spins, you get back on the road, we carry on and you're well, that was kind of ugly, you want to stop for a coffee, and I still have both hands on the holy crap rail, because I'm still back where we started to spin. And, and most people react to things they think are crises, you know, somebody gets killed or job loss or so forth. But what about that beloved person who got diagnosed with cancer or that divorce or that that really, really, really well respected person and she's retiring. A leader, all of a sudden, now he or she is put in that position where they need to provide support to somebody for performance for constructive criticism. And it's not constructive feedback. It's criticism because some of the things that were done were wrong and you don't want this, I wasn't trained to do this, I was trained to productivity performance. And, and so the event is not the crisis.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:12
So it's, it's the, everything else that happens. Because of, you know, the preceding emotions the preceding reactions.
 
John Robertson  05:26
One and Leighann you're bang on a crisis is not over until the reactions subside. Okay.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:34
Wow, that and that's, I've never heard it put. So I guess, simply to make it more understandable, because you're right. You know, there are people who are still who are still in the middle of, for instance, just reached, obviously, we just went through a pandemic, there are people who are still, you know, emotionally recovering from that. So they are still in that, that we're still in that crisis, because people are still recovering from it.
 
John Robertson  06:06
And you've put your finger on a key problem, because a lot of people will think that quote, unquote, because the crisis is over, we'll go back to normal, right? Number one, normal died, when we hit Christ, a COVID. Whatever we were doing, then, is no longer what we're doing now. Things have shifted. But the second part of that is, while we're going through a storm, whatever that means to a person or an organization, 90% of humans will press through it, you know, the stiff upper lip, keep your chin up, you know, all this stuff that we we do to keep our head in the game to get through it. It's afterwards that we start as the things wind down, that we start to realize, you know, okay, this, this, and this, and I'm not going to comment on a woman's age, but I'm going to take a shot in the dark that you're over 21. And, yeah, and just my mom's voice is ringing in my head right now, John, don't ask a woman or age. So I'm not asking but, but one of the things that, you know, when you get to be over 21, the mind says, Well, you can play this game, it's not a big deal. It's the next two or three days that your body is saying, you moron. Why did you think you were taught you are so going to pay for this? It's the exact same premise that applies with significant events and crises. Change could be a crisis for some people.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:44
Right? Well, and it's, it's interesting, because usually for I guess, for me, when a crisis is taking place, depending on the length of it, usually, I go into an immediate fix, you know, fix what you can right now survive, survive, survive. And then when that event passes, it is when I feel the effects emotionally of what just took place. Because I'm in survival mode. I'm going you know, I'm trying to protect my family. I'm trying to figure out how to get through it. And then eventually, I feel all of the you know, the crushing weight of whatever that might have been or so and.
 
John Robertson  08:37
And Leighann, what you're putting your finger on is and I'm going to challenge your listeners to don't just focus on the emotional. Think about, and I call it charley horse effect, because if you've ever had a physical charley horse, many of us have had those coaches that say, oh, skated off, walk it off, you're fine. It doesn't hurt. If dirt on it. Yeah, drink more water, eat a banana, whatever. And, and Leighann, what you just put your finger on is emotionally after we come through that survive phase. Emotions are one charley horse area. But look around. Look at the relationship Charley horses that are going on right now. What was the term polarized is an understatement for what it seems to be happening right now. Murrell Charley horses relational turning horses psychological turning horses and of course spiritual and everybody's got a belief system don't go all get you know listeners don't go all getting religious on me. I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about spiritual beliefs. Like if Leighann if you're my boss, and I believe you're out to get me. I'm now a spirit trouble person, because I have a belief system, right? It goes way beyond just the spirit, right? No, I get what you're saying. So you can and what's happening is going through events changes, crises, like including COVID. But nothing, maybe that long lasting. Think about all these Wallops that are happening as we're getting through it.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:26
Right? Yes, absolutely. So you started fORTLOG nearly 25 years ago,
 
John Robertson  10:34
It was actually it was longer than that. But I was trying to sound younger. But yeah, we'll just we'll go with 25 plus 25 plus years ago.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:44
Okay. So tell me a little bit about, you know, some of the highlights of the journey. So far, you kind of touched on how that began. Real briefly touched on that. But I mean, this obviously, 25 plus years, I'm sure that you have seen countless. I mean, we've had some traumatic events in our economy. We've Yeah, I mean, tell me a little bit about how you work with businesses, how you work with individuals.
 
John Robertson  11:23
So a couple things, I call it the hot water tea bag of fact, if we want to find out what's important to a person or an organization, put them in hot water, just like a tea bag, what's inside always leaks up. So I was talking with this woman not long ago, and she was telling me about her daughter, and her daughter's favorite color is orange. And the daughter came to her and said, Mom, I want my bedroom to be done in orange. And what leaks out of a person is, well, no, you're not going to paint your bedroom orange, or in five years, 10 years when my daughter realizes orange is not really that cool or trendy, or whatever the buzzword is she wanna changed and therefore pick my battles. And, and so you also use the term that I like that you said, Well, I've never heard it put so simply, well, people have heard the KISS principle before. But for Robertson, I use the kisser principle, which is keep it simple Robertson. And and so one of the things that I love are those moments when people are able to reframe stuff and say, I never looked at it that way. Well, yeah, that that makes complete sense. So for example, if my this is true story, my son borrowed our car. Sorry, that's a lie. Our son borrowed my car. And he hit ice corner to corner, bounce my car off the curb. Brand new like it was, I don't know if it was eight months old, brand new. And so he drives it home. And it drives like an old horse and buggy kind of carriage. It has a flat spot on the rim. And so there's two voices going on in my head. There's the one voice my new car. But there's the one that came out that said, William, you okay, well, yeah, but dad, you know, I can fix my car. Yeah, that doesn't mean that he can bounce the car off the curb whenever he feels like it. But in that moment, I wanted him to know that you know what, I've done death notifications for people who were more concerned about the damage to the car, because they were in the wrong than they were but the person who got killed. And in the workplace, so a woman was off work. And she came back COVID She came back to work. And it was almost a dementia like, and and it's not a criticism of those who have that disease. It's a calling a spade, a shovel, symptom, description. And this woman came back and she was just like she had dementia. And so finally somebody said, Well, John, we're dealing with a performance issue, yada, yada, yada. And I said, Well, why don't you just ask, I saw this behavior before you left. I'm seeing this behavior now. What changed? What's going on? What can I do? What do you mean make it that simple? Yeah, cuz you're just describing the behavior. We're not judging what the behavior is based. It turns out this woman while they were off, slipped and fell, smoked her head on the ground and got a bad concussion. One of the side effects of concussion is dementia like symptoms. Guess what happens in the workplace? Now they laugh when she forgets, because they're not upset because she's a human being. It's it's a result of the side effect of a concussion. Those are my stories. It's never the, you know, we increased our profit $400 million?
 
Leighann Lovely  15:32
Well, if you don't keep your people healthy and engaged and appreciated and valued, don't worry about your profit. Because your turnover costs, we'll look over at look after any profit, right? But it's interesting that you can walk into a company. And that's not what and I'm not saying all companies, you can walk into a company and that is not their concern at all. Their concern is oh, well, hey, we need we need to figure out how to pump more product out the door, we need people who are, you know, just gonna come in here and they don't, they don't care about how their people feel they don't. So I was working with a company that they were so short handed, that they made it mandatory that all of their office, people stay late and go out onto the manufacturing floor.
 
John Robertson  16:27
Wow, Will that ever motivate them?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:31
Right? What do you think? I mean, this is, you know, what do you think happened to the office people? You know,
 
John Robertson  16:39
They might have stayed late for a few days, until another job came up.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:47
Right? They immediately pissed every single person at the company off and lost a mass quantity of their office staff. So not only now, are they short handed on the manufacturing floor, they now have nobody in the office to run the front end of the business. It's like you what you.
 
John Robertson  17:12
You actually just reminded me of a scenario because I had this discussion. It was in a media company. And I don't remember how many they had maybe 30 employees, 40 employees. So it was decent size, but not big by some people's standards. And Mike is the owner operators, namely C, E L, I think he was but anyways, I said, why should we do this work? And I said, Okay, Mike, no names, but think about the last person who just left your company 80% of the reason that people leave a company has nothing to do with the job. Did this person leave as a result of the job? Well, no, he didn't. Okay, so now go back to yours. And think about how much money you spent training and resourcing and equipping him to do that job. I said, I don't need to know what the number is. But do you have a number in mind? Yeah, when you word it that way, it's actually quite depressing. I said, Okay. So now, why don't you take that same amount of money, go in your backyard and just use it to light a campfire? Because that's all you've done? You've just burned it. Yep. His response was really simple. He said, Well, we need to because remediate, we really need to get things up and running. And I said, Yeah, and you just burn through 10s of 1000s of dollars on training. And now you got to spend the same amount of money to get somebody else out, but you're two years behind. And his answer was beautiful was so where do you want to start? Yeah. And to your comment with that company, you mentioned, office, people are the unique anomalies, because it's like custodial people in a healthcare setting. Many times they're not noticed. But I can shut a hospital down in minutes. If the custodial and administrative people say, You know what, I'm not doing my job, that everything's shut down. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  19:25
Right. It takes every single person at a job it doesn't matter what they do or not at a job at a company. Doesn't matter what they do. If if, if everybody is not doing their part of the work. A company can be shut down in minutes. And to your point at a hospital if you don't have those custodial people cleaning the proper way that they're supposed to be cleaning. Doing. You're right. You. I mean, you send in, you know the health department.
 
John Robertson  19:59
We have a friend of ours she works in a school. And all these schools were during COVID were at school at home. And then when they were allowed back in school and they had an outbreak, the school got closed. This one school that she worked at because of the custodian, never closed. He was one of those people that was so courteous, polite, even when a kid threw up the joke in the PA and the page system was protein spill in such a such a classroom and the custodial Peters is named Peter went and cleaned it up. The school never had an outbreak through the entire season.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:42
Wow. That's That's unheard of.
 
John Robertson  20:47
And, you know, it is, and Peter was one of those people that nobody would recognize typical custodial, he would wear jeans and all the normal work clothes. And one of the things that happens is and the way I teach a healthy workplace is teach it as a human body. When one part of the body is not doing what it's wired to do. Everything else goes out of alignment, including a sphincter.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:16
And it's and it's Sorry, sorry. And I find it I find it wildly interesting that companies don't that they don't get it. Put your office people to work on the manufacturing floor. You don't you don't already see that they're going to be I think it took four weeks, four weeks, for the VP of HR to be out the door. That's all it took four weeks. I mean, because this was not extremely long ago. So there were jobs everywhere, four weeks, and she was gone. She found a new job. She's and she had called me first. My day job. I'm in the staffing industry. Hey, Leon, do you know any? Do you know any jobs that they're looking for? Was she VP? Or was she I can't remember her title. But she I mean, she called me and I remember seeing her number come up on my phone. It was after hours. It was after it was like 515. And I'm like, I wonder why she's calling me after business hours. But you know, I picked it up. And she's like, I need a new job. And I'm like, What? What do you mean, you need why? I thought you were happy. She's like, Yeah, they just made a ruling that or they just made a notice of all in the employees that we have to go and work on manufacturing floor, she's like, I'm too old for this. I'm, you know, I'm, I can't my body can't even handle it. And I'm like, the fact that companies and that the higher ups don't have enough understanding and foresight to like to get that that's going to be the immediate reaction boggles my mind
 
John Robertson  22:49
But Leighann okay, but you use the key word. And that is foresight. And part of what happens. And this is where leaders are getting shot out from both sides. Because they got their productivity performance, they get all those demands of what they're supposed to be producing. And on the other side, they got all the people behind them saying hold it, we can't work all these hours, we can't do all these things. And leaders become a rope in a tug of war in and I'm talking HR as much than the C suite leaders because they're the ones responsible for executing on all this stuff. But the key in foresight is values. And I always always come back to values. And there's not the stuff that's posted on the website. And in brochures. It's the stuff that leaks out in hot water. Ideally, the work is done beforehand, so that when we're in hot water, the right stuff leaks out. But foresight can only happen through a values lens, because values are always short term costly for long term benefit. So my comment about that part of the body that has to function that you tried to get a grip when I use is when we're talking about all body parts have to work, right. And values mean, okay, you know, and that's like saying the heart to the heart. Okay, I'm tired of total total photo all day long. I want to do some breathing. I want to be like the lungs. I want to inhale, exhale, I'm done. I don't know. I'm just going to breathe. Nobody with any understanding of a human being would think that's a healthy sign in the human body. But we do it in organizations all the time, because our values are not clear. We're not sure why people are in the rules or in we're not clear on what they're wearing as their gifting is, what their passion is, or the personality, and as a result, we think we can shift the bladder to be the lungs and the lungs to be the heart. And we think we're going to have a healthy, thriving organization, right? It's the, it's the common mistake that that organizations make of, we've got somebody who's successful in this role, but we're gonna, we're gonna see if they can fit into this seat on the bus and be successful at it. Or we're gonna, we're gonna promote somebody into a management role, but we're not going to give them any management training, we're just going to let them figure it out on their own. Well, and, and to that comment, the old adage of we rise to the level of our incompetence, is my sister was a beautiful example of this. My sister was one of the best principals and I'm not bragging because she's my sister. In fact, there was many days I didn't like her. But that's a family dynamic, no. But she was one of the most gifted principals in a school context, because she went in values were really clear. And if you didn't step up to the plate, she found you another place to work. She got promoted to be a superintendent at the Board Office. And, and I remember talking with her one day, and she said, yeah, I gotta get out of here. Why? Cuz if I stay, I think I might be off for homicide charges, cuz there are some people that I'm going to kill. And, and, and she, she was promoted, like she wrote curriculums, she wrote leadership principles. But she couldn't be in the office where it was all politics, and not actually doing that stuff.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:50
And that's, and that is a mistake that happens all the time. Is that over correct. And then if you are the person that's accidentally been promoted up, and then you say, You know what, I want to step back down. In our society right now. They're just like, what it is looked at as, Oh, my God, well, no, yeah. I mean, what are you failing? How dare there, if there are just there's some times where we don't realize that we are in the perfect role. And I see this happen at companies where, especially in salespeople who are promoted to being managers, you're awesome, amazing producer, you are great at your job, you're and then all of a sudden, they get a promotion into being managing other people.
 
John Robertson  27:44
That you've probably seen, because I have is somebody who's really good in an engineering role, whether they're an engineer or not, but they're really good in their engineering role. And they get promoted to be the leader of the engineering team, and everybody hates them within a month. Now, one of the things that you just perfectly described is, there's an adage that in the book or row run toward the roar, but the premise behind it is, there is no greater failure in life, than to succeed in a way that does not matter in the long run. And so there are two ladders in life. There's the ladder of significance. And there's the ladder of success. And we're climbing these two ladders against two different walls. Sometimes significance will give us success. Sometimes success gives us significance. All of us are ladder climbers, if you're not growing forward. Basically, if you're not growing, you're dying. It's a really simple biology principle. However, what happens and where I work with organizations that have done the ladder climbing on the rung ladder, is we actually help reframe the communication strategy to say, You know what, we haven't failed. We just lost our way. We're reclaiming what success means for us, because we got motivated and steered by what people thought she was. Success should mean for us.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:23
And that you made a comment if we're not growing. We're dying. I'm not exactly well, some people assume that growing means that you are moving you know, climbing that ladder and continuously I disagree that you have to absolutely be climbing the ladder. Growing means so many different things. And I truly believe that you know, growing can just be learning new things every day and expanding your knowledge and it can it just becoming more emotionally you know, emotional intelligence plays a key role into that, you know? So growth can be so many different things. Expression.
 
John Robertson  30:08
Yeah, and your your right lamp. And when I talk about climbing a ladder, I'm not talking about the rungs of success. I'm talking about growing a tree that is growing as climbing ladders called height. Yes. And, and so like a child, you know, a child that is growing will stand straighter. But, but what's your perfectly describing? Is how am I maturing? Now I'm still working on that part of my humor gives me a way, you know, I'm getting older. Maturity is, is still a little bit behind on my you can be wildly successful and have limited maturity, as long as you have a little bit of emotional intelligence. I think those are two completely different things. You don't have to be mature to have emotional. Well, and the kid and I'm overqualified. And, and part of part of what happens is, it's a simple question. How do you how do I want people to describe me in a non physical way? Because at my, at my funeral, I'm probably not going to be in attendance, but at my funeral, how do I want people you know, John, dad, whoever loves his job, if that's all they can say about me, have I succeeded? And I also want people there, you know, for more than my will, dark humor alert from a funeral home director, Mike's comment was, Don't ever forget John, where there's a will there's relative and, and so one of the things that that I want from my journey, is I want people to say, You know what, he was such a stone in the shoe, sometimes. He was a pain in the neck if he was that high up. But man, I knew that he was in my boat rowing, even when I felt the boat was sinking. He was encouraging. And he made the adventure, and I am so glad that he helped me get on my path.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:24
So you had mentioned you and I want to briefly talk about this your book, run towards the roar, right? Yes. So tell me a little bit about that.
 
John Robertson  32:36
Well, the premise is really, it's the term I coined is Passio Fidelis. Passio is the root word of passion. Fidelis is the root word of fidelity, faithfulness, loyalty. When we define our refined double new norm, what we want to grow towards what our definition of success means. And for me, success is not about being the one with the most toys is it's about being that significance. So Passio Fidelis is what am I passionately faithful to and committed to that in spite of the storms, I will find a way to get back in the game and finish well, and the title is based on the old adage, the proverb, whatever it's called story of as a lion ages, his mane, his teeth, his muscle tone, deteriorate, all the lion has to keep his pride is roar. And so the way a lion hunts is he will go to one side of a herd of antelope. The pride will go to the other side. When the lion roars animal instinct is fight flight freeze appease, majority of those animals will flight will run away from the roar and aka run into bigger hunting have bigger problems, the hunting party, humans are the only ones that we can train to run toward the roar. Thus Passio Fidelis what you just described in that woman calling you at 515 is an organizational approach that was fight flight, freeze appease based and therefore heard a roar and as a result, everybody ran away and now they ran into bigger problems.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:33
Wow, that is that's awesome. I'm gonna, I'm going to I have not had the opportunity to read the book. I have a four year old at home. And you know, to get five minutes to myself to go to the bathroom is a struggle. So I am going to definitely read the book just based on that description alone. Sounds amazing.
 
John Robertson  34:55
So well and it's kisser based it's write a lot of us get stuck, keep it simple Robertson based, it's a lot of people get sucked into what I call the eddy effect. We have our emotions, we feel a certain way b, we behave according to our emotions. And all of a sudden, we end up with stinky thinking. When we define what our values are, and are we passionate about them, then we behave according to those values, which means our emotions follow. It's like going to the gym. I've very, very, very, very seldom have I ever heard anybody saying, Oh, I'm really looking forward to exercising, I am so excited to get to go to the gym. But almost everybody. So if we start with the emotions, we never go, if we start with the thinking that says, I'm going to go and then we behave and do it, our emotions follow and say, I'm so glad I went to the gym, exact same principle with our values. Right? If we if we constantly allowed our emotions to lead our, our actions, we would we would do much less than what we do, because our emotions are usually. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Yeah. And if you to vote Thumper out of Bambi if you can't say something nice, yeah, yeah. So, so But the premise is, is I mean, think about the term. How many times a day do we hear people say, Well, we're just evaluating our decision. Okay. What are the values that you are E-value ating. On?
 
Leighann Lovely  36:45
I absolutely. Well, first of all, I'm a salesperson, I hate when somebody says, we're going to evaluate, we're going to review this and get back to you. It is the most irritating thing I also in my personal life can stand. I'll get back to you on that. When somebody presents something to me. I make a decision immediately. I am one of those people that's, you know, you want to buy this. No, I don't do you? Do you need this? I look, no, I don't. I mean, it's it's hands down. I make a decision. Unless it's, you know, buying a house, you know, I'm not gonna immediately walk, buying a car buying large items, obviously. But when it's minimal risk things, people who can't make a decision. It it's just yes or no.
 
John Robertson  37:38
But make a decision. And this is part of the change that happened, the transformation that happened during COVID. Pre COVID. People saw busy as a badge of honor. Yeah. I'm busy. I'm busy. And in I used to spin people out to say, John, are you busy? No. Why? Are you not busy? No. Really. Not, I would clarify. I have a full calendar. But no, I'm not busy. Busy is determined by other people's values. Full is mine. Right? Post COVID. People are trying to figure out because they don't want to be busy anymore. What they're trying to figure out what's important,
 
Leighann Lovely  38:28
Right? And this is the rise of the virtual assistant. This is the rise of, you know, the delegation of duties. This is the rise of so many different ways of living life. And, and I absolutely love it, because for the first time people are going I don't want to work until 10 o'clock at night. Because I look at somebody and they say, oh, yeah, I I put in 60 hours a week and I'm like, What's wrong with you? And they're like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, You're you're saying that as if I should be like, oh, good for you. That's awesome. That's not It's not Where are you living your life? Where is your work life?
 
John Robertson  39:10
And I'm gonna be rude on that. Because part of the advantage of being busy and being away is my wife misses me. If I'm always at home, I've actually heard the expression of how can I miss you if you never go away?
 
Leighann Lovely  39:28
So yes, there's that there's it and I, I love the opportunity to, I mean, don't get me wrong. I work from home sometimes. But there are times where I'm like, I have to get like Mondays Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I have to be out of the house. My dog my puppies driving me crazy. My child's following me around my husband, you know, it's like, I know. I need to get away from you people. I love you. But I got to get away from you.
 
John Robertson  40:03
And that's, but isn't that the whole premise of balance and, and ironically, when I'm talking about Passio, Fidelis and other things for leadership and people to thrive, one of the first things that we do is exactly what you're putting your finger on. I just use it in a different context. Many times people think that unplugging from work will recharge them. That's the same thinking that says we can put our cell phones and cell phones on airplane mode to recharge them. Now I'm not an IT specialist.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:40
Yeah, no, right? No, go just put it on airplane mode, it'll, be ready to go and a little bit, its not connected, it's not connected to Wi Fi, it'll recharge. Right. Now one of the things that actually you just mentioned a term that I learned, so we have a cottage hunt camp property that has, it's off the grid, there's excetera, etc, no cell, well, there's cell coverage, but it's spotty at best.
 
John Robertson  41:09
If we leave our signal on, at or our Wi Fi on, we might normally get a day or two out of our battery. If we leave those signals on, or whatever that piece of technologies software is called. Our battery will not last half a day. Think about the human being that the things that are we're running minimized in the background, that if we don't plug into recharge, we're not going to have the battery to finish well.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:44
Right. And that's it's wow, that's really interesting. So the battery's being worn down because it's constantly being bumped with with Wi Fi on because it's constantly being beamed, pinged, banged, and constantly getting emails and notifications sent to it. So it's being linked on and blinked off, blinked on and blinked off, blinked on and blinked off. So when you put that as a human, the human being, when they are still in their own element, they're still living, you know, they're at home. They're, regardless of whether or not they are working, physically working or not. You've got TV, you've got social media, you've got all of these things happening, that your brain is still processing and intaking. And you've got your full life still happening around you that you can't shut off. Regardless, it's still an emotional draining on you. People think that, Oh, you have to recharge because you were on your feet running around all day. Sometimes people and this was a conversation my husband and I used to argue about he's like, Well, I'm more tired than you because I work a physical job. And I'm like, Whoa, wait a second, wait a second. You may or may physically be more, your body may physically feel more exhausted. But emotionally, that does not mean that I am not just as tired as you because all day long I've been, you know, I'm being bombarded with phone calls. And this and that. And I get irritated when people think that an office job is less exhausting than a physical job, or that they can't be at least compared in one way or another because it's,
 
John Robertson  43:30
I'm sitting here laughing, smirking. Because I was stupid enough to make that comment to my wife, because I was standing, doing training. And she works in an office and put it this way I was enlightened. By the time she was done. enlightening me. And, and, but to understand the neuroscience behind why this happens, is have you ever taken a holiday or cruise or whatever it is, you do? You have done. But you go on your holiday and you come back and you actually hear yourself saying, Jeepers, I took this holiday, but now I need a holiday because I'm tired from my holiday. Oh, yeah. What happens is when we go to a place that we're not familiar with, our brain doesn't go on to minimize. So for example, putting your coffee on at home shouldn't take all of our mental faculties. We should do a lot of it on routine. When we go away to a strange place. We don't have those routines we're focused on Okay, where's the coffee? What if we're doing a cruise or resort? Where do we get our food yada, yada, yada. And what happens is the brain is never on routine mode. So therefore, it's always on duty, which is why we come back tired, right? Yeah, and there's and my husband and I just went on a trip and it came
 
Leighann Lovely  44:59
I can I'm like, I need like two days to recover. I just want to crawl into bed and not get out of bed for two days and have somebody just bring me my meals. We went to we went to Colorado to, for a wedding. That was a destination wedding right in the Rocky Mountains. And it was just nonstop like all all the whole time. It was nonstop. You know, not to mention, we're also at, you know, altitudes, and everywhere we walked, I was like I might pass out. But, you know, you come back and you're like, there was an amazing trip. I feel rejuvenated from not, you know, from not working but physically exhausted from all of the activity.
 
John Robertson  45:38
I mean, and that's part of why, OK, what are those habits, hobbies and routines that we have to plug into, to keep recharging our batteries?
 
Leighann Lovely  45:51
So we are at time we've actually gone over, but I do want to get to the question of the season and let you you tell people how they can reach out to you, where they can get your book and all that kind of fun stuff. The question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
John Robertson  46:10
So I would go back to kind of the between college us between high school, college university and not listen to what people think would be success by clarify what my passion is, how I want to serve people, and then develop those skills. That's awesome. And easiest way to get hold of me is well, there's three, three things. So the domain is four. So the book is Run Toward The Roar dot online. But to get hold of me, the business is FORTLOG, because you got to have a fort safe place in the frontier, you know where you're going. A log is a journal to sail the seas because people are going to get seasick get going to the fort. And you don't want to go along fort log.co I work with people called a coach collaborator is Dotco. And just email me John at Fort log dot Cole. The other thing is the landing page is really simple. fortlog.co forward slash just like your website, let's dash talk. Dash HR.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:27
Awesome. John, this has been such an amazing conversation. I think we could probably talk for the next hour. But we are at time. And again, thank you so much for joining me.
 
John Robertson  47:40
It's been my pleasure and I really enjoyed the conversation and also the humor. It is very relaxed, therapeutic and energizing. So thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day
 
Contact John
 
LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/johnrobertson-fortlog
 
E-mail – John@fortlog.co
 
Website – www.fortlog.co
 
Book – Run Toward the Roar
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, called, values, day, custodial, crisis, passio, happening, roar, talking, john, person, run, job, recharge, long, promoted, emotions, charley horse, company
 

Episode 20 - Tom Manning - Hard Conversation, Create Growth

Creating real culture is about having an open honest environment that allows managers and employees to communicate with trust. Tom Manning the founder of The Pathway Academy through his own experience and growth created an amazing training and coaching program for businesses to learn how to break down walls and create better environments for people to work in and communicated in. This is one amazing conversation with an amazing person driven by a true desire to help.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned, and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host, Leighann. Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
This is going to be a great conversation today with Tom Manning. He is a specialist in emotional awareness and accountability. Tom is changing how managers and leaders approach accountability to get more consistent results in higher standards without anger, irritation, or avoidance.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:28
Tom, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you here.
 
Tom Manning  01:33
Thank you very much for having me Can't wait. It's gonna be fun.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:35
Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Tom Manning  01:39
Yeah, so my name is Tom Manning. And I sort of specialized in emotional awareness and accountability. And sort of got into that. We did a lot of business consulting for a long time. But, you know, went through a period of time. So read difficult relationships and stuff like that had to learn a lot about buying behaviors, and fear and insecurity and how that impacted my kids and my partner, and all that and how there's impacted me, and how you navigate all of that in a healthy way. We sort of started to a big part of that was taking personal responsibility. So how do I take responsibility for how I feel how I respond, how I process what's happening to me, how I react to an event. All these are my choices. And that's really where the accountability piece came from. As we started to more and more introduce what I sort of experienced my personal life into the workplace, we started to change how we approach accountability, so that we no longer need to avoid stuff, we don't need to rely on anger and irritation, we can deal with it in a different way, a more productive way. And an approach that just works a lot better to get more a more consistent approach. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:52
I totally love that. Because I think the hardest thing for any of us to do is to actually sit down look in the mirror and realize, Wow, am I the problem? And then one day realize that oh, okay, my behavior actually is, could be part of the issue. And but, and you and I talked about this, you know, prior to this conversation, when you have children, it's the true reflection of you, right? Because there's no lying to yourself, you know, you look in the mirror, and you see what you want to see. But when you have a child, you can't lie, when they all of a sudden start to reflect your own behavior and do something that you're like, wait, oh, my God, why are they doing that you go. Because I do that. You can no longer hide from it. You know that? The eye rolls that, you know, my husband and I do sometimes to each other? My daughter does. And I'm like, Oh my God. I do that, like all you can no longer hide behind the I don't do that very often. Well, no. Nope. Absolutely. So I love that, you know, the accountability piece is something that people really struggle with of, okay, I have to take accountability for my own reaction to a situation or my own behavior in this situation, and realize that I'm actually impacting the people around me, and creating maybe more stress of the situation. And then it's not always the other people in the room. That's the problem.
 
Tom Manning  04:26
Yeah, you're right. And like kids are such a mirror, you know, they just mirror they just mirror back at you and the amount of times that we can be so I think parenting is just the height of hypocrisy because we've shouted our kids and say, don't you shout at me? Like hello, you know? So it's the height of hypocrisy. We can get away with some of that more, I think in the workplace, but yeah, as it Yeah, it just ends up being reflected back at you. And if you're willing to look at that then it can be actually a bit uncomfortable, I think in the beginning because you start to realize, like I've, I've actually had a much bigger impact on these behaviors than I originally thought. And now I've got to take responsibility for that. And that's sometimes tough.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:19
Sometimes tough.
 
Tom Manning  05:21
Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, it's tough. There's no.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:26
Yeah, yep. So let's talk a little bit more about your journey, you know, you touched upon it on a high level. So talk about your journey. You your your business is, you know, pathway Academy. So, right. So tell me a little bit more about how you developed and, you know, a little bit more into what pathway Academy is.
 
Tom Manning  05:48
Yeah. So I think it all started where, well, a lot of that started, when I first started introducing these principles in the workplace. And I was sort of figuring this all out, one of the early things I did with a client was created this career pathway. And we wanted to sort of give, like, from when when we take apprentices on, we wanted to kind of give them a clearer way or route through that was the idea of these kind of roles. And one thing early on, I tweaked is we've got to be really clear about what the expectations are, so that they kind of know what good looks like. And it's easier for us to hold them accountable to those things if we need to, which we will at some time. Because one thing when in my personal life, my coach used to say clear sooner in our relationships, he will always go on about clear as soon as clear as soon as so if in your you've got tension between you and your partner, clear a sooner have the conversation sooner about what is happening, so that you can address it and be truthful about it and be honest about it and deal with it, rather than it just fester and just be this toxic thing in your relationship. So I used to go on all the time about clear as soon as I was like, well, if if we're going to start with this career pathway, we need to be start with clarity. What's the clarity around this relationship, this is what we're expecting from you. And in return, this is what you can expect from us. So we aligned it with pay. So and they just loved this, like these guys love this. And what I loved the most one thing that we'll always remember is we briefed out to the to this tape actually, it was sort of like some subsequent teams. But in the in the sort of rollout of this is one guy stood up. And we were asking for some feedback. And he said, What I love about this is I can take more responsibility. So now I know what the next level looks like and what I've got to do, I can take more personal responsibility for that, you know, because I understand more about what the next step looks like for me, so I can take more responsibility to get there. So I was like, bam, like, that's just amazing, isn't it? That's exactly what we have to do. So you started there, and, you know, sort of evolved into well, how do we now help these people to grow? And part of that is having on it, were more honest conversations? How do we accelerate the rate at which we can take them through the pathway, part of that is helping them to see their behavior more having to see the downside more, but doing all of that in a constructive, healthy learning based environment? And how do we take the fear out of this role? And how to take the fear out the relationships? So yeah, that's sort of where it all developed from, and hence why it's called pathway Academy.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:34
You know, it's interesting, because so many people that I've talked to, you know, it's about transparency, it's about understanding, it's about knowing how you get from point A to point B to point C to point and so on, and so on. Right. And I think this is what everybody has wanted, for years, you know, my, my grandfather just went to work, he punched a clock, he did his job and he went home, he didn't care about what the managers were doing. He didn't care about what the business was doing. He didn't that was just bred into him, that you didn't get to see your peek behind the curtain. But the generations that are exist now they they've had a chance to peek behind the curtain and now that they have, they just want the curtain to be open. Right? Yeah. They want to fully understand what is happening at the business. What is happening in relationships, what is that's this new, this new generation this new. And it's not even just the generation. It's the new thing everybody wants to fully understand. I guess the whys the what's the who's the Where's right. Yeah, and we all seem to function better when we have clarity and what we want need are expected to do and I mean, it's, it's, I feel like people feel more empowered when they are able to take control of their own. I guess Destiny And if you give them clarity on how they are capable of doing that, they feel empowered.
 
Tom Manning  10:07
Yeah, 100% like, like people just like to know where they stand. And I think when we did this pathway thing, what was great is like I used to say, we put all the cards on the table. So like, we put all the put all our cards on the table, there's nothing, there's nothing hidden here, we've made it super transparent, super clear, you now know, like, these are the behaviors, these are the soft skills, this is experienced, this is what it looks like, this is how you need. This is what the next year, if you're operating at the level above where you are now, that's what this is what that looks like. And we've spent in the time taking the time to articulate that in words, you know, even like, are you doing this more consistently? Is it that you're doing it to a greater depth? Is it that you're bringing a broader level of experience that you're able to anticipate things earlier? Like, what is it that's different about this level versus that level? And then as they they're like, oh, okay, I get a now I'm starting to understand what that looks like. And I can take more responsibility for it. And, and it's easier to have those conversations about where the gaps are. Because it's like, look, you know, you're doing that, but you're not quite doing it consistently enough, or with enough depth or whatever. And it helps with those conversations around the gaps. And it feels more of more of the relationship feels more like we're in this together to help you get to the next step, rather than some kind of confrontational type thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:32
And it doesn't that just seem obvious, like it should, right? It should just be like an obvious thing. Like, your manager comes to you and says, Hey, I have to write you up. And you're like, Well, why? Well, just because you know, you weren't doing you weren't doing well in this. And it's like, well, you know, I've been here for two years, you would think that you you have a conversation with me before we get to the write up period. But there are companies out there that don't do that. They just all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I'm being written up. But for what how? It's seems like it should be an obvious thing. Like, here's your job description. Here's what your responsibilities are, here's how you should execute it. Here's how you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there are companies that don't do that. They're just like, No, here's your job, go do it. And if you don't do a good job in six months, they'll write you up. And you're like, Wait a second. I didn't even know that I was failing. Yeah, like, Yeah, well, we gave you the job description.
 
Tom Manning  12:34
It's funny, she said that you've made me you know, it just brings up a really great point. And I talked about one of the biggest mistakes around accountabilities is a lack of clarity around expectations. Now, one thing that went through my head when you said that is, we have so many unexpressed on verbalized expectations that I've given you just like say, you've joined the company, here's your job, spec, whatever, I have a load of expectations of how you're going to perform, how you're going to behave, how you're going to react, how you need meetings, and then but I don't express them, you know, somehow you're just meant to know this stuff, without me telling you. And then I get really disappointed because you don't give me the things that I didn't even ask for. I mean, how, you know, that's just ridiculous, you do that,
 
Leighann Lovely  13:17
Right. And this is the same in a marriage or a relationship, you start dating somebody and you're like, you have this idealistic idea of, you know, like, oh, this person is going to be, you know, they're gonna do this, this, this and this, and we're gonna be, you know, happy and we're gonna love each other. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I'm not happy. And then your partner goes, What do you mean? What, why? You never told me that you wanted me to buy you flowers, or that there was ever an expectation of, and some people are like, Well, I just assumed you would know that. Well, wait, wait a second. Some women don't like flowers. Some women like to be doubted. Same and I'm not just saying women, some men, some men prefer and I feel like we should be at a point in our in the world where you just have to simply say, Hey, honey, I would love it if occasionally you would go out and buy me flowers and chocolate strawberry covered strawberries. Like if that was all it was? How many relationships would not fail or take out the garbage? I don't know. I it shouldn't be just be a man's job. It should be a you know, split equally and couldn't relationships if if we were just all instead of being stuck in our head of like, this is what I think you should do and in and I'll keep it in my head. Just verbalize that in clarity.
 
Tom Manning  14:48
Yeah, it's such an expectations are such a massive part of relationships because disappointment is always preceded by an unmet expectation. So all that disappoint then turns into resentment turns into toxicity. And like, you know, it's just so unhelpful. And one of the things like in our house we have like that my coach used to say is ask clearly for what you want. So like, my kids will say, Oh, Daddy, I'm starving. And I say, Right. Are you sweetie? And she'll say, yeah, no, I'm really hungry. I would say, Okay. Say, Well, can I have something to eat? Yes, you can. Yeah. What do you want? Like, so I weren't, you know, unless they're making a statement, you're making a statement. And I'm being a bit pedantic about it. But I'm trying to, I'm being pedantic deliberate to teach them that asked clearly for what you want. Because what we do is we imply what we want, without actually asking for what we want. And then we get disappointed because they didn't give the thing we didn't ask for. So it's such a just,
 
Leighann Lovely  15:52
That is so real. Oh, my God, that is so brilliant. And I have this conversation constantly with my daughter, and then she's just, I'm really hungry, mommy, and I'm like, okay, great. Here's an apple. And then she's like, I don't want an apple. And I'm like, Oh, my God, and then it turns into this, like events. So from now on, I'm gonna go, okay, great. And then I'm gonna just sit there and stare at her.
 
Tom Manning  16:14
Yeah, to begin with, they just yeah, they're like, they're waiting for something. I'm just like, I just stay quiet, you know? And they're just like, Well, can I have something? What do you want? Well, can I have a chocolate bar? No, you can't have that. Could I have a packet of crisps? No, we can't have that either. Could I have an apple? Yes, you can have that.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:35
Right. Right. That, right? Because you Oh, my God, that's so brilliant. Geez, I just learned something.
 
Tom Manning  16:45
But it's crazy. You know, I had this lady ring up the other day, or she made an inquiry on my website, she works for somebody else. She was inquiring about some emotional awareness, training and stuff. And anyway, I end up having a call with her because we don't necessarily do one to one work like that at the minute. But I just got into this call with her. And she's just what she's describing is all this toxicity and confusion in these relationships in our workplace. And I sort of gave her some advice and guide her through how to approach that in a healthier way, how to get rid of some of that toxicity. Because, like, this just isn't commonly understood. You know, like, it's like, everything I teach is not, you know, it's not difficult. We're not like a common reaction we get when we do the accountability shows like guy so obvious when you say it. So and it is obvious, and it's not difficult. It's not always easy to practice, like to do to do it in the moment. It's not always easy, but it's not. It's not confusing. It's not difficult. It's very, like you said earlier on, it's like, this just seems so obvious when we say it. But it's not commonly understood or practice,
 
Leighann Lovely  17:49
Right? Right. Now, when you say it out loud, you go, Oh, God, this should just be but you're right. In the heat of the moment. When you're dealing in a situation, you know, you go back to a work situation, or you go back, and, and it's not that easy to remember, you know, not to get frustrated at somebody's, you know, behavior or somebody's, you know, an email that's being sent or, you know, again, and I go back to my personal situation at work, you know, I have a two employees or two partners that I work with on a regular basis. And they both sometimes send things to me differently. And I'm like, oh, man, I wish they could just send them to me the same. And then I have to remind myself, oh, did I tell them that I wanted it to be sent to me this way? Where I'm constantly just, I'm like, Oh, it's just easier for me to fix it. And eventually, then I'm, like, just getting irritating that I have to fix this every time.
 
Tom Manning  18:44
We deny them the opportunity to learn. Yeah, and we weren't clear in the first place. So yeah, the I like and I have a slide and accountability training. And so whenever you're disappointed, that's a flag. When you experience the disappointment as a flag, the first flag goes up is was I clear about what I was asking for? Did I provide an example? Have I trained them properly? Like, have we been clear about what good looks like clear about what the expectation is? That's the first place to look, but of course, when most people look first is them. Why aren't you doing this? How I want it? Right. That's the know, the first place to look is me. Was I clear about the expectation? Is the expectation clear?
 
Leighann Lovely  19:25
Yeah, yeah. And as a manager, it is. Absolutely. It's really easy to point a finger. And I think that's for a long time that has Well, I think it still is, it's still easier to blame somebody else than to look internally. And that's I think that's a knee jerk reaction that the majority of the population has.
 
Tom Manning  19:47
Yeah, and it's taking responsibility for that choice and taking responsibility for that reaction, taking responsibility for that request or whatever. So yeah, no, absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:59
Why can we through when you start to really work with with companies, and you teach businesses, really walk me through how you start that work, and you know what you really start with?
 
Tom Manning  20:14
So basically, we start with the basics. So we've got like some basic accountability training, which is all about, like, all we spoken about today a lot about your clarity of expectations, understanding behavior, why do people get defensive? Why do people lie? What all this kind of other stuff? So we start with all the basics we talk about, you know, how do we have a more candid, honest conversation with somebody while helping them to feel safe, and they just aren't skills that are practiced or understood very well. And what we do is provide them just with this whole load of suite of tools, like, if this doesn't work, you can try that. If that doesn't work, you can try this, if you might need to combine a number of these different tools to get that result. And we really like and tried to make it super practical. There's like a whole load of different tools. I'll give you an example. One is like, I talk about deliberate ambiguity. So you might say, oh, like, I'm not I'm not saying this is what you intended to do. But this is what I've observed, you know, is that what you intended to do? So you're just giving them room to make an excuse and talk it off. And that's fine. And you might have one more conversation like that. And then you might introduce concerns. So you might say, oh, like, I'm a bit concerned, because we had those conversations. But you know, I'd still notice this thing. So what it did is it gave them to time to see the behavior, it gave you time to establish a pattern. And once you've established a pattern, it's much easier to start turning up the volume and addressing with it, addressing it, but so often we just ignore it or don't deal with the behavior. So basically, we you know, cover the basics, all that kind of stuff, breaking down silos, how you create more united teams, so teams aren't working in different directions and pulling each other in different directions and blaming each other and all that kind of other stuff. So yeah, so we sort of trained like that. Start with that, sorry, and then supplement that with coaching. Because when they go and do this, they're going to make mistakes, they're going to, you know, avoid conversations, they're going to have a situation like, Oh, they're doing this, what do I do? So you know, just coaching them through then using those tools and applying it. And then sometimes there is also some kind of consultancy, for example, a bit like the pathway approach, well, how do we develop a leadership framework? That's, that's clear enough, you know, that we're clear enough about what good looks like and read quite a lot of practice at doing that really well now. So there is a bit of an art to it. So there might be some consulting, there's definitely, you know, to begin with some training round some basic training what good looks like and then really coaching people through that, as they apply it. So that's yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  22:48
I'd say, so do you work with all the manager level? Or does this kind of trickle down into? Like, good question.
 
Tom Manning  22:57
Yeah, very good question. Yeah. So the accountability stuff that I just described, that is predominantly targeted at people, managers, it doesn't have to be some organizations want. Like, they'll have some people that are around a management team that don't necessarily directly managed, but they want to get them involved in it. So that's fine, but generally is targeted at people, managers, or leaders. But then we also do stuff with like a wider population of the team, where we help really to sort of desensitize to feedback, we help them to sort of see themselves a bit easier, a bit better, help them to understand other people's behavior a bit better. Help them to see that choices and how I react to something or have choices around how I react, do I want to get defensive this thing? Or do I want to do make a different choice? Or if so? And yeah, like we're, we're, we're often introducing methods by which we might have a more candid and honest relationship. So we can sort of supplement that with this with these types of sessions. So we can kind of prepare people for that, really, and help them to understand that it's not a bad thing. These are good. This is a good thing. It's a good conversation. It's a productive thing. We don't need to be afraid of it. And we can talk through lots of different ways in which people can start to process that in a healthier way and got some great quotes. People often say, one quote, the sixth, I had somebody this lady said, she said, it made me realize that it's okay to be wrong. You know, and I'm like, Yes. Like, that's amazing, isn't it? You know, she'll have been protecting yourself and you know, I can't be seen as being wrong and like now, it's okay for me to be wrong. Yes. Is it is what we're requiring of you is to just learn from any mistake that happens. It's okay for you to be wrong, and that's fine.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:47
Yeah, many leaders are afraid that you know, if they are if they are being designated as the person that's supposed to be able to have all of the answers all the time, and all of a sudden, you know, somebody finds out Oh, my Got you weren't, you weren't rites, you know, it's that oh my gosh, well, did I just feel my team? Many people when they when they're told or when they're not told when they are when they finally realize that they're not required to be perfect all the time? And that answer asking for help is okay. And when your company tells you that you go, Oh, I can stop putting this much pressure on myself and be human, like everybody else. Yes. Yes, that's, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal.
 
Tom Manning  25:35
It is a huge deal. Like, like, the so many of us, we spend most of our lives protecting ourselves. We don't want to feel the rejection or feel isolated, rejected, unwanted, we don't want to feel that. So we protect ourselves against that feeling, by defending ourselves or earning approval, you know, like, like, I was, you know, I needed praise and validation from people, that was one of the big things I need to heal around myself was needing praise and validation needs to earn that praise and validation, versus just being okay with the fact that somebody may not like you, or agree with you, or you don't, you know, all that. So, yeah, so we're protecting ourselves a lot of the time. And it's a big thing to put that protection down to put the sword down and the shield down, and be a bit more vulnerable and open and human. You know, that's a big step for some people. So and we've got to take them on that journey a bit written.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:37
And well. And when you finally do it, also, you also realize that you are more capable of learning new things, when you finally stop trying to know everything, right? Yeah. 100%, or I should say, pretend that you know, everything, rather has Yeah, right. So I have to assume that when you work with or when the company brings you in, they say I want you to work with not just the leaders, but more of the group that kind of falls underneath them. I would assume that that is a much more success story than it's when it's just with the leaders. I'm sure that when it's just with the leaders, there's a great success behind that. But I would, I would venture to say that when you're working with the entire group, that you're actually seeing that accountability, go all the way down through out and that there is just such a major impact that that really, truly has.
 
Tom Manning  27:37
Yeah, I mean, that, of course, from my point of view is absolutely optimal. You know, and it's depends on where the client is that but I think there's probably three things I would say like, like, what's the gold plated best solution is that there's there's senior leadership support for the approach, that there's good training of the management team, and that there's this, this wider support for for the wider group to help, you know, process all of this in a healthy way, like you're saying, and really kind of impact that wider group and help to show them what it looks like to have a healthier relationship with yourself and a healthy relationship with others. And we don't always know what that looks like, you know, we just If all you've known is a version of an unhealthy relationship, which lots of us, you know, that was where I was at. That's all you know, that's all you know, you know, sometimes you have to somebody who really does need to spell it out to you. And, you know, I know, on my own journey, I had lots of lightbulb moments, lots of moments when I was like, oh my god, I remember this, I remember my coach saying to me something like, you know, look, feedback is just information. It's almost like, you know, zero or one on a computer screen, you know, it's just information. But what we do is we make it about us, and we you know, make it personal. It's just information, somebody's opinion, is just their opinion, and it's information. I don't need to personalize it, necessarily, I can learn from it. I'm not saying it always feels like that. But at least knowing that's what it is helps me to then process it in a healthy way. So yeah, like it can be truly transformational. If if if the group goes on that journey together, because you're learning how to create a healthy relationships together as a group, and there's something very bonding around that. We teach people how to tell the truth about themselves. Look, I'm afraid, you know, or I'm nervous about this thing and I don't feel like I've got all the answers and I feel like I should know the answers. I don't know the answers and I less space for me to tell my truth and be a bit more vulnerable. And all that kind of other stuff. There isn't as much space for me to exhibit unhelpful behaviors over and over again and not learn from it, right, so we will hold you, we will hold you accountable to that. But if you do that, if you're willing to learn, if you're willing to self reflect, and you're willing to learn, there's a lot of room here, you know, there's a lot of room here. So it's very humanizing, despite being, at times very difficult, because you're really some people do not want to let go of their behaviors, right. And so, so at one end, it's like, you know, your feet to the fire, but at the same time, it's a highly humanizing environment. So and some people just aren't used to that. So it's quite a Yeah, it's like, you've got these two, what seem to be opposing things. But actually, they're not. It's a responsible, healthy relationship. And that's really what we're teaching them.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:49
Right? Well, and I guess, you know, people who are incapable of letting go of those behaviors, they may, they may still just have that. I guess, that old school mentality of I just want to simply walk into a job punch my clock, I don't want to know anything else. I I want to then leave and walk away and go home. And and that's it.
 
Tom Manning  31:17
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, though, I mean, the most where we've had where, where we've had where you have people who are exempt, maybe they're being evasive, they're not really taking responsibility for their choices, or they're not, they're just not being diligent enough in their work or something like that, and you've tried to address it, or you've or I can think of a number of them. But when there's a pattern of behavior that that we need to correct, it doesn't need correcting, but they just don't want to let go of that. They don't want to let go, they want to come they like the evasiveness because it gives them room to be irresponsible, and make up the rules and do what they want and stuff like that. Right? So the most common responses are, they voluntarily decide, Oh, this isn't the place for me anymore. They asked to step down. The least common response, oh, sorry, all they they change their behavior, you you keep the fire going until they go, they work out, you know, either change this behavior, or I may as well not be here, which is when they end up making the other choice. So the least common response is that you end up in some kind of performance, formal performance management. But if you do, by the time you get there using this approach, where you've got loads of evidence, because you really put the work in to make a difference, and to talk to about their behavior, and you put all that work in, and you were in there committed to making this better. So by the time you get to that point, you know, if you need to do any take any formal action, you've got plenty of evidence around what that looks like, and the work we did. So yeah, that's why we found that often they end up making sure that you're going to lead them to this choice, we don't get to control their choices, right? We're going to lead them to a point where they make a decision, am I going to change my behavior? Or I'm, Is this the place for me that's often or is this the role? For me? That's the question, they often end up asking themselves.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:17
And that's interesting that there are people out there that would choose simply just not to change and, and move on to find another role where they can continue those behaviors. But there, I mean, I know that there are people out there that exist that that just decide to stay stuck. And I guess that's the only I mean, the only word that I can come up with, they just they stay stuck in that same mentality of I want to go in, I don't want to mentally or you know, I'm not interested in growing beyond where I'm at. And they they're stuck in that. There's nothing wrong with me. It's everybody else. And that cycle just continues.
 
Tom Manning  34:05
Yeah. And there's a fairly large portion of people just sat in workplaces all around the world doing just that. People may have had to have may have tried to have a conversation with them. They may have tried to address it, but then they gave up. And because it didn't work. And that's really because and this is sort of like one of the other I talked about, or the other common mistakes around accountabilities there's no consequence. I can sit here and behave like this. And nothing really happens. Like nobody really there's no consequence to that. And without consequences. There's no accountability. And sort of the business end of this is we're going to apply a consequence. Like we will try we will be in this we will be with you we will we're we're fully committed to helping you get to where you need to get to, but ultimately if we have to, we will apply consequences also At least those consequences will lead you to a point where it's some kind of formal action. And we teach you the use of informal consequences that help us lead nicely to fall ones if you need to. But always the intention is to try and stop you and let you know the intention of each step is to stop us to stop moving forward, we don't want to move to the next step. But we are prepared to if we have to, and we have a method and a way of doing it. So so in this approach, you can't sit there and just be stuck, like and just go on your I'll just stay here and just be stuck. Because that suits me, you know, like, not gonna work here anymore.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:41
Right, yeah. And, and I've, you know, I think even on my podcasts that I've talked with people and referenced the, you know, where companies, they know, they have a, an individual, and they make excuses for that individuals behavior, like, oh, that's just so and so Oh, that's just, you know, Karen, or got across, I use that name. Oh, that's just Todd, he just acts like that. And you're like, wait, but that's not okay. Like, just because this individual has a crappy attitude, but they do a really, really good job at like, maybe something that's niche at the organization. It's not okay for that company to continue to make excuses for a poor attitude, or poor behavior or poor, something. But there are companies that continue to do that.
 
Tom Manning  36:37
Yep. undermines trust in the relationship.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:40
And it it, it tells that individual, that it's okay to act like that. It is okay to treat people crappy, it is okay to continue this behavior. And I personally, I think that they're, they're damaging that individual even more, because you're, you're taking away the opportunity, you know, especially if this is, you know, such where you're taking away the ability for that person to ever grow, not only personally, but in their career. If you just allow them to continue to behave in a negative way, well, they're never going to they're not going to get promoted, they're not going to grow personally. So yeah, you're if if a company just allows that you're taking away, you're taking.
 
Tom Manning  37:31
We do a total disservice, it's a total disservice. And you're right, I can think of this middle manager, middle to senior manager in it in a client of mine, who I did some work with little while ago. And I think that one massive light bulb was moment for her was I said, Look, we don't help them by not having this conversation. It's unhelpful. We are being unhelpful. By not having this conversation. I think this was a massive lightbulb moment for her. She was like, Oh, my God, like you could literally see in her face, almost like, I've got these people in my team who are behaving in a way that is unproductive. And sometimes that's only an aspect of their performance. Not all of it, but there's an aspect of their performance, that that isn't particularly helpful. And I've sort of tolerated it. And you know, to some degree, and I suddenly realize, I'm being really unhelpful, by tolerating that, and not addressing it and not having a conversation. And I'm only promoting a fear based relationship. The minute I avoid this, because it's more comfortable for me, then I'm afraid, and I'm not, you know, this is a fear based relationship. This is not a trust based relationship. If, if, if we trust each other, if I trust you, then pretty much you can say what you like, you know, right. So we want to move to a trust based relationship, like, you know, that's what we're trying to develop, not just wallow in a fear based one.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:03
Right? And if you have a middle manager who's who is affecting other people under that person, you're leaving a that is a risk at your organization or risk for losing people under her or him. You're I mean, that's not that's not you don't just have one employee problem. You have an employee problem with every single other person that that person touches. So if there's a bad apple right there, every every single other apple that is touched by that rotting Apple is at risk to start rotting.
 
Tom Manning  39:48
Yeah, and it affects other teams as well. I remember when I was in corporate, you know, we would have like another team and we're relying on this team and they're underperforming or then all those patterns of unhelpful behavior. I remember that one guy sticks in my head. He just wouldn't respond to staff he would he would respond really late, it was like it was so unhelpful. And this was something was really important needs to get fixed. And as the impacts, you know, the impact is huge. And, and imagine that when you when you roll up around a corporation when you've got 30, odd 40, odd 100,000 People 200,000 or whatever, you know, you you the compound impact of all of those Mr. conversations, and all of that poor accountability, and all of those behaviors that go and under duress, and all of a new compound that it massive.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:38
Right and here's the way like, okay, so you know, I have a team, I'm a team of three, like, right now I've got me I've gotten then I've got two other people, and we're expanding, we're going and we're fairly new, you know, we've came together, we've been together, not none an extremely long time. But when one of us goes on vacation, I just think of it this way, when one of us goes on vacation, it's horrific. It's like, oh, my gosh, I have to, you know, help manage this other person. So let's just imagine if you've got, you know, let's say we have a team of 10. And one person is just always not doing their job. Oh, my God. Like, that just wouldn't work. It just, it wouldn't work. Now, if you've got multiple teams relying on all of those other teams, and you've got one person who's just constantly never not doing their job. And then you think of what about a production floor? If you got somebody who's, you know, always behind on something you that that takes a mass? We're not just talking about a little that's a mass impact on a company. One. And I, I'm surprised that more companies don't get it.
 
Tom Manning  41:54
Like, yeah, and I think I mean, like, I do this taster session and what I asked them, first of all, I say, what is poor accountability look like? Can they say, oh, you know, miss deadlines, and all this kind of impacts of the business, and it impacts our ability to get stuff done if you got her up. Next slide. I say, do you expect your manager needs to hold their teams accountable? Yes, or no? And you vote? So of course, everybody votes? Yes. Like nobody says no to the question. Do expect your Haji. And then I say, Well, do you recognize any of these, you know, managing leaders avoid difficult conversation, particularly about behavior, monitoring managers and leaders allow people to coast? Well, yes, we recognize a lot of the symptoms. So it's like, do teach them naturally. Have you ever taught them how to do this properly? Not really. So we expect them to hold them accountable has a massive impact, poor, poor, poor, or Catholic has massive impacts for business? We expect them to do it, we don't train them how we're not we're unclear on what good looks like, like, all these skills are missing.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:52
And, you know, know, thestatistics on the amount of people. And I can't remember right now, but the amount of people who are who move into management roles, and that actually have management training, once they move into management role. The statistics on that are laughable. Yeah, people get promoted into manager roles with zero management training, zero, they get the, the, you know, like, this is how you do your job. This is the, you know, like day to day, what you're responsible for, if you need to run a budget, or you if you're running a department, here's your p&l, here's your this, but when it actually comes to oh, now you have three direct reports, or now you have five direct reports. Nobody actually sits down with them and says, Okay, so let's actually do the manager training. Let's actually talk about how you lead people that never actually takes place. They're just like, Okay, here's your new responsibilities. Yeah, nobody really says, Okay, so we're gonna go to this leadership training, you're gonna learn what it takes to be a healthy strong leader and manager of people. Like the statistics on that are like, only, I think it's like only like 15 or 20% of managers or leaders get some type of manager training. I mean, that's, that is laughable. It should it should be 100%
 
Tom Manning  44:25
Yeah, and the ridiculous thing is the crazy thing is that, like, some of the stuff that we teach is so easy to teach, like, you know, said earlier like, it's like, people come in here and say, Oh, like this is so obvious when you say no, no, it's our that deliberate ambiguity thing. I've got this like, like a micro learning course. It's like literally, it's like, you know, 10 swipes on your phone, you know, and his little video and it's like, you know, you spent 10 minutes on this, this is going to chat totally change, how your ability to address behavior where you need to in a productive and healthy way it's going to Transform your ability to do that, like in intense swipes of your phone, you know, this is like, it's not difficult to teach. It's just not being taught. Right. Yeah. So it's a bit of a Yeah, criminal sort of thing. But you know, it is what it is. And it gives me work.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:17
So that's awesome. I love it. I love it. And it's, it's what I most love about this is that it came from a personal development of your of your of you, you know, there was a time in your life where you went through a personal development and kind of went wow, this is this is something that other people could learn from. And I love that that's where the passion for what you do, I can clearly tell that you have passion for this. And that's what makes you I'm assuming so successful at it because you yourself, at one time went down the same journey that went down the same, you know, learning about this? Yeah, I'm trying to and I think at one point, we all kind of kind of step back and do that. We're like, again, looking in a mirror going oh, my gosh. But yeah, if you would, are open to sharing a little bit more about your, your personal journey. And again, I'm not asking, you know, details, but what whatever you're willing to share about that?
 
Tom Manning  46:32
Yeah, I have something. I have something I could say on that. I think one thing I was sort of reflecting on as you're saying that is a lot of like I some of the stuff we teach some of these tools, for me, was born out of an intensely difficult period in my life, like intensely that navigating some intensely difficult relationship issues that that were fairly horrendous, you know, and I had to learn how do I, how do I deal with this in a healthier way, and get a healthy result? And I made lots of mistakes in that process, by the way, right. But, but yeah, so I think that's where like my heart's in it. Because there's, there's my own sort of reluctant to say trauma, because that makes it sound that you know, that there's, there's, there's a lived experience here, right? That is meaningful and impactful that had a personal experience. So when I'm sharing this stuff, I know, I know that you do this, this will change your relationships, because it changed mine. This will change how you experience your life and your relationships. And it will reduce conflict and all this kind of stuff and help you to navigate this in a healthier way. I know that because it did it for me. So it's, you know, it's a lived experience. And I was lucky enough to have somebody who could navigate helped me navigate that at a time. And I remember him saying to me, he said this, at the start, he said to me, You're in so much fear, I could cut it with a knife. Right. So you know, like, I had to deal with this fear and this insecurity and this old pain. And then I had to go and deal with my relationships. And so yeah, so everything we put together, is born out of those experiences. And really, you know, when I when I really, in the early days, even before the pathway thing, it was like, Oh, how do I take this thing I'm talking about? How do I have healthier, emotionally healthier children? How do I have an emotionally healthy relationship? How do I how do I translate that into a workplace environment took me a long time to I just try I took years to translate the language I literally had to translate all this language I learned. And so I you know, now it's just rolls off. Oh, yeah. Well, it's accountability training. You know, it did I have to figure all that out. And along the way, or how we translate all its languaging so that it's meaningful, productive, useful. pragma, pragmatic, you know, like, we teach this, if you came along, you will be like, you think that this will always been like this? Yeah. So yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, that's, that's what I have to say.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:25
Well that's beautiful. That's absolutely beautiful. So we're coming to time, and I want to ask the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Tom Manning  49:40
So, I found this really hard this question, because I generally would struggle to know how to answer it, I think. I think the best answer I would say would be like relax, it will be okay. I think often I've been in a hurry to fix something to get something addressed and all that and and find the learning process difficult, you know, like, I want the learning process to just speed up. So I can get out this thing, you know, but But it's in the learning process. That was where the magic was. And I look back and I kind of think, you know, if I hadn't have gone through it, if I could whine back and say, Oh, no, don't go down there, go down here, well, then I'd missed the learning, you know, so and I wouldn't be here if I hadn't gone down there anyway. So I can't tell him not to do that. So I think it was more like, well, the best wisdom I can perhaps give him would be relaxed, it will all be okay.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:46
That's awesome. That's awesome. So if somebody wanted to reach out to learn more about you and learn more about pathway Academy, how would they go about doing that?
 
Tom Manning  50:56
So you can go on our website at the pathway Academy dot CO dot UK, we probably will come up with a.com site at some point, but right now, it's code at UK. I'm on LinkedIn, so easy to find Tom Manning on LinkedIn pathway Academy. You can email me Tom at Tom manning.co not.com or.co. UK dot CEO, email me. So yeah, just multiple ways you can get in touch login inquiry on the site, email me get in touch on LinkedIn, posting a lot all the time. So feel free to connect or whatever.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:31
So yeah, awesome. And that will also be in the show notes. So if anybody wants to reach out they can find that in the show notes as well. But Tom, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been an awesome conversation.
 
Tom Manning  51:41
It has Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:45
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Tom Contact Information –
 
E-mail - tom@tommanning.co
 
Website – thepathwayacademy.co.uk
 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tommanning0
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, behavior, relationship, conversation, accountability, unhelpful, bit, manager, pathway, healthy, responsibility, teach, training, expectations, leaders, company, easy, clear, approach, work

Episode 19 - Anne Jocoby - Creative Business Processes

Anne Jacoby is an amazing woman who started her career in the arts as a professional singer, actor, and dancer. As many of us know and have experienced, she reevaluated her life and decided to take a new path. In early 2000 she went into the business world, eventually finding her way back to her creative roots. She founded her own business that focuses on just that. This was an amazing conversation, with a talented person.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:04
Today is going to be a great conversation with Anne Jacoby. She is on a mission to cultivate creativity at work as the founder and CEO of The Spring Street Solutions, a workplace culture consultancy, she partners with leading organizations to build more connected, innovative and inclusive cultures, and was previously the head of learning development and culture at a global consulting firm and has over 15 years of operational experience building and leading teams. She has her MBA from NYU Stern School of Business, and was a professional singer, actor and dancer prior to starting her corporate life. I'm very excited to have this great conversation with a very brilliant woman. And thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation.
 
Anne Jacoby  01:57
Thank you for having me, Leighann. This is gonna be fun.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:59
Yes. So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Anne Jacoby  02:03
Sure. Well, I like to say that I am on a mission to cultivate creativity at work, something I'm very passionate about. I have an unconventional background. So I started my career as a professional singer, actor, dancer. And then I made a pivot to business, got my MBA and scaled a company from seven people to 1000s around the globe and kind of rode that rocketship for a while, really on the business side and then landed on the people side, because I was so passionate about seeing people develop and tap into their learning and their potential. So that's really what I've been focused on for the past five years or so.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:40
Okay, so let's back up you started with, say that in acting, and how did how do you start in that? And then ended up where you are?
 
Anne Jacoby  02:53
You know, it's a great question. And I'm sure we'll talk a lot about how creativity influences the work that I do now. But, you know, I was always passionate about storytelling and performing and I love to sing. So I was doing it, you know, ever since I was very small, just a little kid and thought I would make a career out of it. I really thought this is it, you know, I'm going to be a performer for my whole life. And found myself in New York in the early 2000s. And like many who were there during 911, I think reevaluated my my choices, and where I wanted my life to go and just thought, Gosh, I really want something more stable. And for me, it shows how naive I was at the time. But I thought that meant business and joining a startup, which we all know that startups are not very stable, but at the time that felt like a stable choice between performing or or being in business.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:50
Wow. Being in New York during that time. Rough first of all, but to pivot from Wow, okay, so it's take, and I and don't get me wrong in any career that you have, there's always some type of business aspect of that, right? You have to market yourself in one way or another in order to continue to be able to do what you love to do. I'm assuming that you had to go out there and, and market yourself to get jobs, right.
 
Anne Jacoby  04:20
Yes, and no, I'm a big believer in saying yes, as opportunities present themselves and the way that I ultimately found my job at this startup, I was waiting tables and had a really good conversation with someone who happened to be a recruiter, and she thought I just gotta get you out of this restaurant. You gotta be doing something better than this. And I was you know, babysitting and waiting tables and doing shows and performing you know, I had a million different jobs as you do in New York City in your early 20s. And and so I just said yes, and I gave it a shot and I found myself at the Start up and kind of the rest is history, you know, just really found that building a business is ultimately extremely creative. So all of that work that I had been doing to cultivate storytelling to cultivate connecting with an audience, or collaborating with other actors or performers on stage, all of those skills apply in the business world. So it was really just about making that leap and transferring a lot of those capabilities into a different environment.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:29
Right. Well, awesome. Okay, so you are the founder and CEO of Spring Street as well as advisors to dangerous ventures and twine. Is that right? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So you got to tell me, first Spring Street, but advisors to dangerous venture? That's very interesting. So you got to tell me tell me a little bit about, you know, what each you know, each different, I guess, discipline is for, you know, as an advisor, and also as a founder and CEO.
 
Anne Jacoby  06:02
Yeah, well, you know, most of what I do is in the service of helping companies to grow, to build cultures that they're really proud of, to achieve their business objectives in any way, shape, or form. So whether that's me being in an advisory role helping a company to scale, dangerous Ventures is an early stage venture firm. And their principle is really around cultivating entrepreneurs from underrepresented backgrounds. So, you know, we have a whole bunch of people who could be successful entrepreneurs, if they have the right support and skills and infrastructure to guide them through that process. So I'm really passionate about that kind of work. But my my clients was Spring Street really range from early stage hypergrowth organizations that are really starting to put shape to their organizational culture, all the way to Fortune 100 organizations that are very focused on programmatically transforming their cultures to be more innovative or connected or inclusive. Yeah. So
 
Leighann Lovely  07:11
obviously, there's, there's going to be one and maybe there's not, I shouldn't say, obviously, let's let's back up. So working with a fortune 100 company versus a small, very small company, he's got to have a different approach, I'm assuming. So how do you start when you you know, you meet a client, and they said, we really want to focus on the culture at this company, we really want to figure out, you know, how to do this, you know, how do you go in and start with within an organization?
 
Anne Jacoby  07:45
Yeah, I'll give a couple examples. So for the earlier stage companies, a lot of what we do is think about, okay, what are our values? What do we want to celebrate? What behaviors do we really want to bring out in our people and reinforce positively. So being really crisp and clear about what those organizational values are, and defining how we're going to bring them to life, throughout the employee lifecycle is a lot of the work that I do around building that culture, really building those behavioral norms. So that people are really clear, hey, I'm joining this company, this is what I can expect. And there are lots of ways to reinforce that. On the other end of the spectrum, companies that have more established cultures can feel like huh, there are pockets where we we know that we need to change. Maybe we want to build more inclusive practices across the organization, how are we going to do that. And so that really takes a different approach that might be you know, developing a specific program and might be designing a particular workshop. So there are different ways to address an organization of that stage. Probably those values have been defined, but maybe we need work refining how we're going to reinforce the right kinds of behaviors.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:03
Interesting. Do you find one more difficult than the other?
 
Anne Jacoby  09:09
Both the rewarding it's a it's a very different approach, I'd say with each of my clients, because every company is at a different stage. And ideally, they have unique cultures that they really want to feel differentiated to the employee. And so I try to pride myself on, on offering bespoke solutions that are extremely tailored to that particular organization.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:35
Right. So here's the question that I always you know, it's one thing to go when you talk to the upper management, you talk to, you know, owners or CEOs or HR people, and somebody who's wants to be the driver of that change, right? And they have all of these great ideas of here's what we want, here's what we want to do. Here's the things that we want to lay out. But how do you Well, how do you teach? Or maybe it's not teaching? How do you get employee buy in? Or how do you teach them to get employee buy in?
 
Anne Jacoby  10:10
Hmm. Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And so on point, I think a lot of it is about good listening, and finding multiple ways to listen. And what I mean by that is, you mentioned the word buy in, buy and can be achieved by understanding what really matters to certain employee populations. And that can be achieved in listening surveys can be achieved in listening tours, where you have, you know, small groups of people coming together to share their thoughts. It might be achieved in anonymous forums, you know, organizations like like all voices aware, people can, you know, share or, you know, offer their concerns in a channel where it's not going to be attributed to them. So I think having a multi pronged approach is really important. But that that key aspect of listening can't be stated strongly enough. You know, to your point, LeAnn, I think leaders get really energized and excited about a particular initiative. But without really hearing directly from the employees, it's, it's hard to create that stickiness.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:26
Right, it's every time I go to like a, you know, a retreat, or, you know, some seminar or something, and I hear about all these great ideas, and I walk into that room going, Okay, I'm going to implement this. And then a week later, I've forgotten that feeling that I had when I was there. And I haven't implemented anything and nothing changes. And I'm like, wait a second, why did I go there, if I'm not going to make any changes, and I and I, and I talked to individuals like you, the, the, the ones that go in and meet with the people who want to make those changes who want to make it happen. And I feel like right now, in the world that we're living in, so many companies know that it's necessary, know that in order to, you know, be what they need to be. They are trying to make these changes, but often, they fall short, when Yeah, when holding themselves accountable, or actually making these changes happen. Long term.
 
Anne Jacoby  12:36
Mm hmm. Yeah. And it makes me think of a really effective coach, where, yes, you could probably share a lot of wisdom and, you know, ideas, but ultimately, a really great coach allows the coachee to discover their own solutions. And that's what really helps move things forward. I think the same applies in this situation where, you know, the leader may have a ton of great ideas, but unless they're really born from the grassroots efforts, that the folks who can really carry the culture forward, you lose that connective tissue, you lose that energy that you were talking about, Leanne? Yes, I'm gonna go do this. Yeah, need to harness that from the very people who have the capacity to, to carry it forward and to implement it. So you
 
Leighann Lovely  13:29
go in and you create, do you create a, like, a plan, you create a step by step? Or do you how do you how do you lay this out for the company?
 
Anne Jacoby  13:41
Yeah, so again, it takes a lot of different shapes, right, but it, start with an assessment where we're really getting to know, okay, where are the pockets of opportunities to change and evolve our culture? Where are those, let's identify them, let's rank order them and prioritize them. And that's more of a strategic process. You know, there's those stakeholder interviews that I was talking about, and like, gathering the data, and then ultimately, deciding, okay, we're gonna pick these three things to focus on this is what's achievable, and let's go do that. So that might be one one phase of the project. Another might be putting together workshops around skill development. So you know, I talked a lot about my passion for creativity at work, but there are lots of different I'll call them power skills that organizations today are really focused on around building resilience, adaptability, you know, change readiness. Those are skills that really do take practice. And so I often put together really fun interactive experiences where people can try out the skills in a safe space before they have to do that in the real world, so to speak. So a lot of it is program design and and developing skills,
 
Leighann Lovely  14:59
Excellent and you know what I love that you said, you put together achievable and achievable. And often we, again, you know, I have and I only can, you know, look at myself of, you know, what I'm, I always have, you know, this idea of like, Oh, I'm going to accomplish this, I'm gonna go walk two miles and then you know, after a half a mile, I'm like, oh, oh my god, I really need to sit down and I'm like, maybe I should make my my goals achievable. And I think that many of us, you know, it's just just like the, you know, my eyes are bigger than my stomach kind of mentality of what's not bite off more than we can chew kind of thing. So I like that. You know, you have the first thing you do is achievable goals. Yeah, that's awesome. So I want to move to something else that you know, that you're you're doing right now you are not only, you know, obviously the founder, CEO, you, you get your hands dirty. You're doing all of this work. But you are also keynote, Keynote spokes, my goodness gracious. A key note, speaker, and you are also busy writing a book? Let me I know, I gotta know what what is? What is the book? What are we writing about it? Can I ask that? Or is that there?
 
Anne Jacoby  16:17
It's not top secret? No. You will be my accountability partner, Leanne. Yes, the book is in development. It is about creativity at work, but specifically around what sparks our individual creativity. So how do we personally Ignite and reinforce our own individual our own creativity? It's also focused on creative leadership skills. So how do we bring creativity out in others? And then finally, how do we address it organizationally? So how do we build that culture of creativity? So that ideally, our company can innovate? And most companies that I serve, at least want to innovate in some way?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:55
That's awesome. I can't wait. So do you have? Do you have you set a deadline for yourself as to when you're hoping to publish? Or?
 
Anne Jacoby  17:05
Yeah, my hope is 2023. So I will, I'll circle back to you when the book is about to be released.  Part two conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:15
Perfect. I want to know, I want to know, so now tell me a little bit more about your your speaking, you know, do you? Is this something that you do at certain times, or you you know, readily looking for speaking engagements, tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah,
 
Anne Jacoby  17:33
I've done a fair amount within corporations. And then also in the academic setting, so either executive MBAs or entrepreneurial programs, I speak a lot to help students understand this skill of creativity and, and what that means, especially when you're building a business, things like adaptability, or being open to perspective taking or, you know, there's so many things that accompany creativity. And it really is like any other kind of skill or muscle to develop, it's something that can be practiced, I think, you know, a lot of times you think of Elizabeth Gilbert and big magic, and, you know, this elusive creativity as if you're gonna get struck by lightning, yeah, some creative today. But really, it's like anything else, where if you dedicate the time to it, at you set certain conditions, certain parameters, certain creative constraints, you really can help train your brain to enter that space of creativity. So that's a lot of what I try to coach, both my clients and then also students to discover.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:38
And that's, it's so true, you have to work that muscle, you know, I remember in high school, I look back, perfect example, I look back to my drawings in high school, I love to draw, I love to do artwork, or sitting in a room where I have, you know, some artwork, drawings, you know, in the background, my podcast slash art room with my daughter, which we talked about just a second ago. And I look at the drawings that I did when I was in high school, because I was in advanced art classes, I loved all of that stuff. And they are so much better from when I was in high school than they are now. Because in high school, I was constantly in art class, I was learning new things. I was practicing constantly working that muscle, right? Working that creative side. And now, as an adult, I don't have time to just sit down and draw. I don't have time to just sit down and can I still do it? Yes. If I look at a picture, I can usually, you know, replicate it. You know, it's one of those buts. If you apply that to anything that you do, if you apply that to creativity in in your work, dealing with people coming up with creative solutions on how to, you know, manage people, all of that kind of stuff. If you don't do it every single day. Well, you're going to struggle on how How to do it right. Yeah, I can that completely resonates with me when you said that but you don't, I guess the normal person unless you remind them of that, won't think of that as something that you have to
 
Anne Jacoby  20:14
practice. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:18
I think a lot of people think of it as well, you either have it or you don't.
 
Anne Jacoby  20:22
Yes. And I love that you said that, because there is that, you know, just misunderstanding I think about creativity in general, or they leap to oh, gosh, I'm just not a talented artist, or I can't sing or, you know, actually, creative thinking is something we're all capable of doing. And you and I are both moms, you know, we see, you know, in our children, how innately creative they are. And they're making new connections and putting together, you know, new inputs constantly. That's how they learn. That's how they make sense of the world. And I think we need to also go back to those fundamentals of gosh, you know, let me see things in a different light and, and look at things from a new angle. And that's creative thinking
 
Leighann Lovely  21:08
Absolutely helps. And you say, you're a mom, too. There's times where my daughter and I will sit down, and we do these, we just dumped paint on a canvas and then slow it, you know, it doesn't mix, but like, and I realized that she actually just, she'll pick out the colors she likes, not the colors, she thinks that will look good together. And me, I am a logic thinker. I think, Oh, these colors will look good together. But then mind turns out looking just really block. Because they're just they're too much like, right? It just turns out looking very much like, oh, very, hers turns out looking like crazy. Cool, because they're not colors that necessarily go together. Yeah, it just, it's really bold and really out there. And you're just like, wow, that. And I'm like, how is she better? But she's better at it because she chooses not based on what she thinks. You know, she should it's based on purely what I like, right this second? Versus and that, I think that really is more becomes more creative when you're dealing with certain things. Yeah, and that, again, I'm trying to get to a point. But, you know, children, children, I think naturally, because they're still learning. They do have that. And I think as adults, we try to analyze and create logic and everything. And that takes away some of the creativity that we have.
 
Anne Jacoby  22:51
And also your daughter is fearless, right? She's not, she doesn't yet have the judgment, the self judgment that we all have. And think about how what you just shared Lian applies to the business world know that? Let's take a risk. Let's try something new. Because we like it, you know, because we we believe in it. I mean, how often do we, you know, we judge ourselves and we try to you know overanalyze things where you just try and experiment and yes, you need to gather the data and see how the customers react. Absolutely. But I think it's that that bold quality that you just described, that is often missing in the workplace, because we put so much pressure around, oh, this, we have to get this perfect. And this has to be just right. And it has to go together. Exactly what you said.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:37
Right, exactly. We overanalyze, you know, we also grow into being more risk adverse, because of experience, whereas, and it's hard to let go of that. But when you allow the creative side to come out, and you will, and you realize that, hey, if I make a mistake, and I fall, it's not the end of the world. And I think that a lot of adults are like, Well, no, but I don't want anybody to see right. I don't want anybody to, to notice that I might make a mistake.
 
Anne Jacoby  24:10
But yeah, yeah. And what you just said right there, that is a creativity culture is the safety to know that if you do fail, okay, you learn from it, you move on, but that needs to be supported, kind of top down. Otherwise, maybe it is the end of the world if you make a mistake if you're in the wrong culture. So I think really fairpoint and hopefully speaks to the kind of work that I do.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:34
That's awesome. Yeah. Okay, so now here here, here's the hard question, right? What if you're working with a bunch of accountants? No, and I asked my best friend as an accountant and she's she she analyzes absolutely everything. And I'm just like, cute. Sometimes your wound so tight, it's, you need the creative side to come out. A little bit. And I remember she asked me, When did she come over and we can just paint. And I remembered her sitting there. And she's painting and she's like, I just can you just paint it for me? And I'm like, no, like, she's so. Oh, okay, tangent. Like it.
 
Anne Jacoby  25:18
I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I do work with a lot of accountants. And, you know, and lawyers in particular, I mean, folks who may not self fighting with GAAP, but you might be thinking how this workflow happens, or, you know, are there better ways of approaching this process? And I think that takes the creative thinking that that I aim to inspire and strengthen people.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:43
And I see, and you just threw something in there that I didn't think about, because it's not just about pretty rainbows and paints. And it's creativity comes into so many different things. Yeah. And I was just having a meeting today with my, my, my two partners. Again, my, you know, I'm in staffing my two recruiters and we were talking about workflow, and I'm like, Okay, how can we be creative to make sure that this workflow is working properly, because it's not right now. So just sitting down and being able to come up with a creative idea on how to make it easier. And so I guess, creativity comes into pretty much everything we do, if you and you would think that it would be, it would be much more fun if we tried to take the logic side of it, and be like, let's be creative about this, instead of logical, my brain, my brain will hurt less, right?
 
Anne Jacoby  26:41
And maybe it'll be more fun. Who knows? It'll be a good byproduct.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:47
So I want to go back to the beginning. Now. You okay, so. And you kind of talked a little bit about how you, you know, you decided that you needed to change, you know, you experienced obviously, with, with the world, a traumatic event, and you decided that, you know, at that point you wanted to change, you thought that business going into more of the business side. So, what did that look like? I mean, for you, personally, when you went from being a actor, singer, actress, singer, all of that, what did I mean? That had to have been a completely different kind of lifestyle? I would assume.
 
Anne Jacoby  27:31
Yeah, it certainly was a transition. And I'm glad you mentioned traumatic event, because I feel like we've all just gone through a traumatic event, you know, with the pandemic, and, you know, all the things that folks are challenged by today in today's world, you know, this skill of reinvention, and you see it with the great resignation, or the Great, the great reinvention, I know, there are lots of terms being floated around, but people are wanting different things from their work experience. And so I want to just note that, you know, in in 2001, and today, similar things are going on in terms of, gosh, what else can I do with my life? Or what should I be doing with my life, these are catalysts, I think, to have these thoughtful moments. But for me personally, it was a lot of embracing, being out of my comfort zone. And that is a skill as, as a trained actor, that you're kind of trained to seek out, right, you're trained to be in, in these uncomfortable situations where you're in front of hundreds, if not 1000s of people, and you kind of need to, to bring bring your A game, you know, so that kind of getting out of your comfort zone. Lots of learning lots of listening, learn. It's almost like learning a new language. And especially since I was thrown into an industry that was highly technical in the legal field, it was speaking the legal language as well working with a lot of lawyers and attorneys. So yeah, it was, it was an incredible experience. And I call it highly creative, because we were given that freedom to experiment to, to try new things and see what works. We were creating this new category of firm. And it was, it was disruptive. There was a lot of reinvention happening in the legal industry at the time. And so that kind of primed the pump for me to then oh, gosh, if I had such an incredible experience building this, I want to help other organizations go through this change as well and help them get good at it.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:42
That's amazing. Yeah, it was fun. Right? Yeah. Wow. So So from there you, you know, you've now been, you know, running your own business. You've now experienced a nother traumatic And then in with the pandemic. Yeah, I would assume that because of that business has shifted dramatically for, especially for what you do. Companies are screaming, you know, hey, help me while the smart ones? Yeah, I should say, because in today's environment, it's an absolute necessity in order to retain people that you need to start offering a happy, healthy environment. Yeah, we see it across the board of individuals I being in you know, staffing, I, you know, help people find jobs. And the number one thing that, you know, individuals talk about now is while I want to, I'm looking for a new job, because the culture of the company that I'm in is one that is unhealthy, or it's volatile, or it's just not, you know, conducive to family life or work life balance. Yeah. So, how has that shifted for you over the last two? Three? Geez, is it almost been three years?
 
Anne Jacoby  31:20
I know, time flies when you're having fun?
 
Leighann Lovely  31:25
Or when you're drinking heavily because of that? No, sorry.
 
Anne Jacoby  31:31
I'm so I'm so appreciative of the question. When I launched Spring Street, I had imagined I would be doing in person workshops, and that it would all be, let's get in a room. Let's figure this out. Let's get creative. Here are some creative exercises to start to develop these skills, obviously, that was thrown out the window. So on day one, I had to reinvent the business model. And actually, I think, because all the points that you just mentioned Lian, people are craving for support around culture initiatives, and how to think about, are we remote? First? Are we hybrid? Are we in office? What does that look like? What's our employee value proposition? What are the cultural tenants of our organization? And how do we broadcast those for new employees? For current employees? What is this employee experience like? And so, yes, I think we have dialed up the importance of this kind of across the workforce. And so you know, whether it's me or someone else, having a partner to help objectively assess, this is the stuff that you're doing really well. And this is the stuff where we have room to grow. Let me help you with that. Gosh, people are craving it. So it's been a very busy time.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:48
And are you work? Do you work remotely with organizations, then?
 
Anne Jacoby  32:53
Primarily, I do. A lot of my company's clients are global. And so their team members are distributed. They don't necessarily work in office, or if they do, it's a hybrid culture. I am starting to see a lot more calls for in person retreats, and, you know, let's get together in a room, which I think is a great thing. So don't get me wrong, I love the chemistry and the connections that are formed when you get everyone in a room. But I also have clients with whom I work extremely closely, and I've never met them in person. You know, it's, it's really incredible, especially with video conferencing, what you can achieve in a distributed way.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:36
Right? Even in my business, I mean, there's, I've been working with some of my clients for and I've never met them in person, I've seen them 100 times on a teams or a Zoom meeting, and I'm just like, we should do lunch sometime. I mean, not like at separate desks, like at an actual restaurants.
 
Anne Jacoby  33:57
Yeah, exactly, exactly. But the
 
Leighann Lovely  34:00
virtual world has definitely shifted, shifted the way that we do business, and the ability to do business on a global level for a lot of individuals. But that need and that desire to be together is still still definitely is exists and wins out. When it comes to truly understanding of others. And when I'm at let me kind of back up and say ultimately, when it comes to creating a company's that true culture, and I'm not I'm not against remote working, I'm not against you know, hybrid, remote, hybrid, hybrid working. But in order for those individuals to actually get to know each other and spend time together. There needs to be at some point or another a gather range of those employees. Right?
 
Anne Jacoby  35:03
Yeah, I think it helps for sure. I think there can be an over, maybe not over, let me rephrase. I think sometimes people jump to the conclusion that if their culture is suffering, it must be because we're not all together. And my belief is, you can have a highly engaged committed, great chemistry working team completely distributed. I think that is possible. It takes different kinds of effort, it takes a consciousness and an awareness and intentionality to build that kind of culture. And I also think there's a belief that, oh, if we just bring everything everyone back, everyone's going to be engaged. And I don't think that's true, either. You know, I think disengagement can happen, wherever you are. So you want to be focused on the engagement levels.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:01
And I write I completely agree with that. If I mean, I have one employee that's 100% remote, she's out of California. And she is the one of the most engaged employees. I mean, I talk to her constantly, all day long on on via teams. I mean, because of the technology that exists, you can literally feel like you're sitting next to somebody with being able to just pull them up on your screen and be like, Hey, can you do this for me? Oh, did you need anything for me? Hey, Ken, I mean, it's, it's pretty, it's the technology is, is beautiful. But it is also awesome to be able to have those, you know, occasional get togethers, and you know, how you doing kind of situations?
 
Anne Jacoby  36:50
So nothing like sharing a meal with someone. I totally agree. Yeah, it's, there's a different level of bonding. And that's a chemical thing. You know, that's as humans that's, I think there is something special that happens when we're we're in, in good company, just, it's different. It's a different experience, it will be interesting to track and I'm no expert on this. But with virtual reality becoming more prevalent, it'll be interesting to see what's possible in terms of almost replicating that kind of feeling. And that experience, as the technology continues to advance.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:25
It's amazing, but it's also really scary. Have you ever worn those virtual reality goggles? Yeah. I mean, there's been times where I've worn them and I'm like, I think my husband got a he got a pair of those for for Christmas from work or something. And he brought him home. And the only thing that was like pre loaded on them was like some horror scenes or something. And I'm like, Okay, I'll watch it. It was like falling off a cliff. And I think I fell down. I'm like, Oh, my God, like, these things are insane. Like, it's, they're scary. And but I can understand wearing those and feeling like you're sitting at a conference table with all your co workers. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's, it's awesome. But it's gonna create the same time. It's, the technology is is is amazing. It's amazing when it works. But just imagine how frustrating it is when you're like, Oh, I gotta go to a meeting. You put your goggles on, you're like, Oh, they're not working. Okay, guys. 20 minutes later, you're like, Okay, we finally got it. We only have five minutes for the meeting. Okay, anyway. All right. So the question of the season, I'm gonna move to this. I think you had a preview of that. So but I'm going to ask, so if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Anne Jacoby  38:57
Such a good question. I would give myself lots of advice.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:03
Oh, me, too. This is why I never answer my own question.
 
Anne Jacoby  39:09
Truthfully, though, I can't pinpoint one particular moment in time. So I guess it's a little bit of a cheat. But I would say to myself, be open to possibilities. Because a lot of times, I was wired a certain way where I would get laser focused on a goal or particular outcome and stay really fixed to that outcome. So much so that I probably missed some other good stuff happening on the side. And I think, I hope that I can translate this to my kids as they grow and are met with challenges and I think challenges make us who we are. I think challenges are great. Those are learning opportunities, but I would coach myself to be more open to different outcomes and just see the good in them?
 
Leighann Lovely  40:01
Yeah, I am. So it's funny. I'm one of those people, my husband drives him crazy, you know, problem. And then there's me like immediate like Solve, Solve, Solve, Solve, Solve and he's just like, you don't have to do that right the second and I'm like, No, I have to I have to and I've gotten better at it. Yeah, I am one of those, you know, I'm like a, I'm like a cat with a mouse. I can't, I can't leave it alone until the thing stops running. Right? It's hyper focused. And I think I've, the older I've gotten, the more relaxed I've gotten with, but there's definitely something you know, add to the list of advice I would give myself, you know, my list is probably about 300 things right now. Be like, go back to me or so. Hey, just chill out. Take a chill pill relax. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. That would probably go on my on my list that's a mile and a half long. Every time somebody says something. I'm like, oh, yeah, I probably should give myself that advice, too. Right. Yep. But that's definitely a good one. Definitely a good one. So we are we are coming to time. If someone is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?
 
Anne Jacoby  41:23
Yeah, well, certainly feel free to check out my website, SpringStreetco.com or an jacoby.com. You can reach out to me there. I'm on LinkedIn. And I'm also on Instagram at and Jacoby dot author. So any of those platforms? I'd love to hear from you.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:42
Excellent. And you're going to be having a book coming out sometime in 2023. So people should be looking out for that as well. But this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time today. It's been really fun.
 
Anne Jacoby  41:57
It's been fun for me to Leighann. Thanks for having me on your show.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:00
Yes. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Contact Anne -
 
Website - https://www.springstreetco.com/
     https://www.annejacoby.com/
 
e-mail - anne@springstreetco.com
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, creativity, culture, creative, organizations, company, employee, skills, focused, business, question, achieved, world, learning, talk, building, lian, conversation, reinvention, cultivate