Let‘s Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation

Episode 18 - Lori Highby - Creating Culture -Some People Make it Look Easy

Owning and running a business is not for the faint of heart, businesses open and close all the time. Even if you manage to succeed you then have to manage the business, and the team, and then as you grow you have to create an environment that people want to work in. Lori Highby is a fantastic example of a successful entrepreneur, who puts a great emphasis on culture, growth, and education. This is and must hear episode.  
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Lori highby is a podcast host speaker, educator and founder of Keystone Click a strategic digital marketing agency. Using her vast multi industry knowledge gained from experience and education. She has the ability to see the potential of greatness within the already established good of a business. Through strategic actionable moves. She has worked with Fortune 500 Companies such as ABB and Syngenta, to micro business owners to achieve their marketing goals. Laurie carries her energy and drive into her professional engagement in order to empower and educate other fellow lifelong learners. Lori, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you.
 
Lori Highby  01:55
I'm excited to be here, Leighann. Thank you for inviting me to be on the show.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:00
So why don't we dive right in? Why don't you tell my audience Tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
Lori Highby  02:07
Oh, where do I get started? There's it's been a fun journey so far. You know, besides what you shared in the intro, you know, owner of Keystone click a strategic digital marketing agency. My background is in marketing, I worked at two agencies prior to starting my my company in 2008. I also am a huge advocate and Ambassador of all things related to education. So I'm a lifelong learner. I taught at the local university for a while and I continue to teach not at the university level but professionals nationally on topics related to marketing, which is something I'm extremely passionate about.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:50
Yes, you have to be if you're if you own your own business, right.
 
Lori Highby  02:53
Indeed and I do, go on
 
Leighann Lovely  02:57
I was gonna say or one would hope.
 
Lori Highby  02:59
Sure. Absolutely. Especially in the in the space we're in. I mean, digital marketing is changing so fast that we have to continue to educate ourselves to stay on top of it and really be in the know of, you know, the direction that it's going. On the personal side. I'm super active and you know, can't sit still the word boredom is not something I've experienced in a long time. Maybe since I was a kid. Travel, play a lot of sports, watch sports, adventures and experiences. That's what I'm all about.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:37
Excellent. And, you play hockey, right?
 
Lori Highby  03:40
Yep, I play hockey. I been getting into cycling. I'm working on right now I'm training to do a 100 mile bike ride and look at your face. And I golf, or pretend to golf, I don't know, whatever you want to call. And, you know, willing to try new things to Uber die.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:04
Okay, I want to go back to the the 100 mile the only way I'm going 100 Miles is in a car or a train or a plane. So what how did you decide to do that?
 
Lori Highby  04:17
Well, I probably I've been cycling for like, really focused on it maybe like three years now. And I there's just a big milestone in the cycling world of doing a century ride, which is, you know, centuries. 100. So, last year, I did a 70 mile ride and this year I committed to doing the century, right. And I've found that if I have a target that I'm working towards, and it keeps me motivated to get up and train which you know, I was up at 5:30am this morning to put 10 miles in so yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:55
And I envy the people who have the discipline to be able to do that because I absolutely know myself well enough to know that I do not. And I have a girlfriend who, who ran a marathon and she, she trained and trained and trained. And I remember her saying, you know, halfway through that I was like, What the hell am I doing? But when? Right when she and then she finished, and she's like, and it was the greatest feeling in the world that I was able to finish that I did it. She's like, but there were moments during it that I was going, why am I even doing this? Well, you know, and as you're right, as your body is just screaming at you going, wow, you know, Stop, just stop. But yeah, there is there's that that complete sense of accomplishment? I'm sure. At the end of that.
 
Lori Highby  05:41
Well, yeah, I mean, I made a commitment to myself to try to. So my word for 2022. I don't know if everyone does this or not, I always pick a word was health and I really wanted to be mentally healthy, physically healthy and financially healthy. So I started with the mental really focusing on the physical, and the financials in a positive spot. So I feel like I'm knocking it out of the park with my word this year. But it is a commitment that I made to myself, and I knew that, if I'm going to do a century, if I'm going to do it, I need something to target. So you know, I signed up to do it, and, you know, the, the third quarter of the year, so that it gave me time to really focus on the training throughout the summer. And it's the main reason why I get up at 530 in the mornings, right? Because I know I have to put the edit the time in so that I'm ready to go on, on game day.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:39
Right? Yeah. Well, and picking a word that is that's a real, that's an excellent thing to do. Not just for personally, but as you mentioned, there's there's three things in there. One, you have to be mentally healthy in order to really do anything. I mean, and I think a lot of people out there forget, like, Oh, I'm just gonna keep pushing through and pushing through and pushing. No, you can't push through your mental health, if anything, if you're not mentally capable of doing that. So, you know, kudos to you to, you know, one picking that word and then holding yourself accountable each step of the way. Because it's, it's, it's tough, it's hard thing to do. But that's, that's awesome. I mean, yeah, thank you. So you own a successful thriving business, you said, you know, financially, you're in a good spot. So tell me a little bit about how you started this. And you know, how you built your team? And tell me about how that's going.
 
Lori Highby  07:36
Yeah, well, when I started it, oh, there's so many different things that I can share related to that. But we don't have that much time on the show today. So up from a marketing standpoint, I literally sent a message out to every single person that was in any sort of contact address book email list, literally, like I direct mail, snail mail, quick tangent. I told someone about snail mail on my team the other day, and they're like, what is that? And it's about died. Anyways, like, I actually put physical letters in the mail, and emailed everyone whose contact I ever had saying, Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you're interested, or you know, someone who's interested. Here's my contact info. And that's how I got my first three clients.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:24
Wow. So okay, and you did this in 2008? You said? Yep. So this was during a time when obviously, the world is recession, you know, in a word, right. In a complete state of crap. I mean, this is. So I'm thinking of what I'm doing at this time right now. 2008, I am struggling to make ends meet because I've been laid off multiple times. And now I'm taking on contract positions. So did were you in that? Were you in that boat? Were you laid off, were you, I mean what?
 
Lori Highby  08:58
No, actually, I was at an agency that was doing really well. The short story is I was unhappy there and decided I was trying to find a new job. But because of the state of the world at that time, there wasn't really much that interest me if I was going to make the change of my terms. I wanted to find something that was best suited for me. And that's when I decided that I could, I could go out on my own. And so I took the big leap. And, you know, I would say a ton of ignorance, maybe a little cockiness. But I've learned a lot over the years and helping to share some of that too, you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  09:47
But sometimes that ignorance takes away the fear that we should have. I mean, now the things that I know actually puts up some of the the blockers from me saying, Oh, I'm gonna go start my own business because I know too much about all of the things that could allow me to fail? And I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do it. You know, I know too much about how many people actually fail. Now, if I was back in my 20s, I'd go, oh, yeah, I can do this. I've got this. I mean, there's no way I'm gonna fail, you know, if so, the younger you are, you also have a lot less to lose when you're, you know? Sure, a little bit younger. So, ideally, you know, and maybe that's maybe that naiveness maybe that, you know, kind of, again, like I said, you also have a lot less to lose, you know, I, now I would have a house to lose versus an apartment.
 
Lori Highby  10:42
Yeah, would you? Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's, I mean, I think no matter what, there's always risks. There's always challenges. There's always stress. I mean, regardless of how much you know, or don't know, and there's factors in this world such as COVID, that you can't control, you know, so when you decide to start it, it's, I would say, the sooner the better, because the sooner that you start to learn those experiences and how to make, how to make it it, what am I trying to say, learn from learn from your mistakes. I mean, at the end of the day, I think I am actually in a better position from an intelligence wisdom experience standpoint than if I were to just continue to have worked for other people over the last 15 years. Because of all of the challenges that I've faced running a business,
 
Leighann Lovely  11:39
Right. And 15 years ago, who could have possibly imagined that we were going to go into a world? pandemic?
 
Lori Highby  11:48
Yeah, nobody, right. Maybe some smart people somewhere, knew what was happening, potentially.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:53
But somebody's sitting in a, you know, a round in a circle going, huh? I have a psychic ability. And guess what? So tell me, you know, now you've started your own business, you have your first three clients. How did you, you know, where do you go from there? How do you start to do the work create a team?
 
Lori Highby  12:17
Yeah, so I actually started out with some contractors initially, and then one of the gentlemen that was contracting with me, he basically said, you know, it would be great to just work full time with you. And I agreed, so I actually got some financing in order to support. My first two hires. Were, which was one was an account manager. And then another was a lead developer. So my first two full time hires were with me, one of them was with me for about three years. The other one was with me for about 10 years, actually. Which is insane and awesome at the same time. But that's that's basically how I got started. And then over time, we've, as we grew, and there was more demands, continued to add new people to the team. One of the ways that I did that actually was I built an internship program. So a lot of my team members started out as interns, which is, again, this goes back to my my passion for education, and teaching. So I was able to share and educate with eager students how how the business world actually works, and also simultaneously kind of test them out before they officially were offered a full time position. So I'd say a good percentage of people that have been interns at Keystone click actually converted to full time employees and stuck around for another two years or so before they took the leap to their next big professional advancement.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:05
That's awesome. Wow, I'm so stinking you you clearly have a culture that and you don't see that a lot anymore. But and because of the fact that some of the larger organizations the culture is not one that drives people in and keeps people for the long haul. 10 years, you're basically your first employee, one of your first employees was with you for 10 years. And I mean, that's that says something about you as a as a manager as a boss, and then to have you know, people that you're willing to spend time to train who ultimately want to stay and have a what an average length of time at their first position in In a very competitive industry, for what two years, you said? Yep. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Because your industry is definitely one that is, is very competitive there with the constant, like you mentioned the constant changing the the variety of areas and disciplines that individuals can go in. That's, that's really awesome. So thank you, how do you? How do you nurture that culture? And how have you kind of worked with the individuals? And before I actually say, what is the total number of employees that you have now?
 
Lori Highby  15:43
Nine full time employees and probably about a dozen contractors that we work with on a fairly consistent basis
 
Leighann Lovely  15:50
Wow. Okay. So you definitely have had it? And I guess I don't know, compared to an agency marketing company, your ear, your a decent size, then?
 
Lori Highby  16:02
I mean, yeah. It's so hard to say that it's, you know, agencies are small and large agencies can be one person with a couple of part time people and some freelancers or hundreds of people. So yeah, I mean, I'd say, I think the average agency size is like around five or six employees, actually, yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:25
Yep. And that's what well, with the ones that I come across on a regular basis, that's usually over here. So yeah, you are definitely a decent, decent size. And I will say, every time I see you, I know that you are running around and crazy busy. So you're doing something right. So so how do you, you know, how do you continue to? And I've, I'm asking this question, kind of knowing the answer, because you have you have told me a little bit about some of the practices that you have. But how do you continue to be available and let your employees know that you're there to continue to not just only lead them, but also continue to maintain and manage that culture that exists?
 
Lori Highby  17:14
Sure. Yeah, that's great question, and I'm happy about our culture, it's definitely taken time. And I want to just emphasize that it didn't happen overnight. I'll share a quick story, then I'll explain kind of the evolution of how we got to where we are today. But in in 2017, my father unexpectedly passed away. And I was not in a really good positive state. And then I want to say about 10 months after that happened, I had three employees all quit on the same day. And I realized very quickly, that I was I was the number one reason why that happened. And it was because of how I was representing bringing myself my energy, you know, to the organization. So that was a huge reality check for me. But one thing I've always done over whenever anyone departs is an exit interview. And I really started to pay attention to what people were saying during those exit interviews and learning from from that while also doing some self education, to be a better leader. And to really create a culture of a positive, positive energy where people are excited to get to work and excited to hang out with their co workers and do do the work that they're doing. So some of the things that I've incorporated over the years. I have my annual word, every quarter, I have everyone on my team pick a word that they're trying to focus on themselves. And we talk about it every Monday in our Monday meetings. How did you live up to your word last week? Right now, my quarterly word is intelligence, because I'm personally doing research on artificial intelligence and how it's incorporated into the world of marketing. And so I want to make sure that I'm continuing to honor that word and show my team that I'm doing that and everyone's got their own word. Another thing that's really so we do quarterly meetings, and this is where I share the state of the business, I share where we are today I share where we're going, how we're getting there, the wins the losses that we've had. So it's a very open, transparent conversation. And I let them ask any question that they want to ask. within the group. I also have bi weekly one on ones with each team member, where the it's they're facilitating the meeting. And then everyone that I would say is considered a A junior team member, I do monthly mentor chat. So this is really where I'm learning about, what are their long term professional and personal goals? And how can I help them achieve those goals? And I open up those mentor chats every single time with the same question of besides like, is there anything that you want to talk about? What I say? Is there anything that I did in the last month that you have questions on, so that they can feel comfortable just talking to me when I want about, you know, is it why it took a meeting with a certain person or why I, I handled the situation a certain way, because I want to make sure that I'm elevating their experience. So that in the future down the road, they're going to be the best professional that they can be. My goal, and I'm very transparent with all of my team members is I know, you're not going to stay with me forever. But I want you to be the best that you absolutely can be while you're with me, but also in the future, and I want you to reflect back, may not realize it right away, but know that you are where you are, in that point of time. And I maybe had a step towards helping you get there somehow someway. So in addition, every quarter, they have a word, and they have a rock, which is like a strategic initiative that they're working towards elevating the business, but they also have a personal educational goal that they have to achieve on a quarterly basis as well. And that's where they're, that's part of their own, you know, professional personal growth. You know, sometimes people are reading a book, sometimes they're learning a new skill, or a software or program or a process. But I think a combination of all of those factors, and just being really transparent, and open to being available as often as I can has helps to create that, that culture, where the team knows, they can come to me with anything a question and idea, a challenge. And I'm gonna listen and do my best to support however I can.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:16
So something that that really resonated with me that you started off, you know, obviously telling a story of something that you really learned from you, we we all have moments in our lives where we reflect on and we go, wow, I may have, you know, failed at this moment. But you are somebody whom, you know, I aspire to be more like many should, you know, aspire to be more like you were you can reflect on a situation and go, I made a mistake here, how can I fix it, and you actively sought out a way to not repeat the same mistake, which is something that I continuously do, and try to make sure that I don't, you know, repeat the same mistakes that we continue to make. And you've you've adjusted something that I also the question, and I love that I love that you ask your your employees to basically kind of interview you. So that they they can spread their wings. Because yes, you're right. I get it all the time in my business of a while I want the the next hire that I bring in, I want it to be somebody young and hungry, that's going to come in and be with me until they retire. Well, that's great. We all want that. But it's unrealistic. Into this isn't, you know, this isn't the day of the baby boomers where they took one job. And they stayed up until they retired. It's just not we, we have a society where there are companies that offer certain certain things. And I've had, I've had employees that that left, because there was, you know, better health insurance at a different company. And there's just so many options that are available now. And the idea that you as an employer want to be able to set that employee up not only to be successful at your agency, but to possibly be successful at their next career is amazing, because most companies don't think that way. They think what can you do for me today? And how are you going to make me better? And it's all about me, me, me, me. You're giving you're you're giving yourself to them in in a sense of No, I want to help mentor you not just be your leader, I want to mentor you for the future. And that's awesome. It's not something that people do on a regular basis because you're not just coming in as a as a manager or as an owner of this as mine helped me here you're you're coming in as a as a true leader and mentor of people.
 
Lori Highby  24:46
Yeah, thank you. I've, I've got relationships with a number of paths, team members. And I've mentored a number of them over the years to you know, someone will reach out and say, Hey, I'm considering this out. Opportunity, can I talk to you about it, and I'm always open. And I've told them that, you know, as they as they move on to their next stage, you know, don't be afraid to reach out if you if you want to have a conversation or your, you know, need to just talk through something. Yeah, there's a handful of people that still reach out, or they've moved on to out of state and when they're in Milwaukee, they, they reach out to Hey, Laurie, let's grab lunch, you know, I'd love to catch up. So I just love that I love that they've, they've, I've built the type of relationship with them, various team members that goes beyond just, you know, boss employee, and it's, you know, that it's a trusted adviser. It's mentor, it's friend, you know, and I think that's really important to do.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:44
And here's a question that I love to ask some of my some of my team, I'll ask them, you know, is there anything that you need from me today? And then, is there anything that I did today that I shouldn't be doing? Is there anything today that I should have done? Or that I forgot to do for you? And I, I love to ask that question. Now. I am not there. I'm not an owner. I am not technically their their direct boss, I am, you know, in a kind of a limbo stage, I guess, as it will more of a supervisory role where, you know, I, I'm I providing a lot of the, you know, the stuff they need to do to their job kind of thing. But on the other hand, you know, there are so many times where you never know if you say it sometimes the wrong thing, it rubbed somebody the wrong. Hey, I'd much rather have them come back and say, Yeah, you know, you kind of said this, and it pissed me off, versus have them walk away and just be resentful for like, the next five days and have them eventually be like, oh, man, she's such a bitch. I just don't want that hanging out there. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, Did I do anything that that I shouldn't have done? Like, if I did just tell me because we'll work through it.
 
Lori Highby  27:02
Great question. Oh, that is a good question. And I've learned because most people when they first meet me, they're very intimidated by me. And I don't know why that is. I'm trying to figure that one out. Probably my super A plus personality of some sort, like type A, gotta go constantly. But I've told New team members, part of the onboarding, I say, This is my communication style. If you have a different expectation, or preference, you need to tell me otherwise, I'm going to be strong and direct and right there, and I'm not going to beat around the bush. So you got to tell me if you have other ways you want me to communicate with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:46
As I used to get this all the time. There are, I guess, I don't know that there's a name for this. I am a not a soft Walker. I am a I'm heavy footed. There we go. I'm heavy footed. And people used to say like LeighAnn I always know when you're walking down, like the row and they're like, it's, it's, there is no other person in this office. That sounds like you when you walk. And I'm like, I don't I don't get what that means. What do you mean? They're like, you sound like elephants coming? I'm like, Okay, it's somebody finally goes, it's just a determined walk. I'm like, Okay, let's go with that versus elephants. Because I'm very much like, if I've got something to do, I'm boom, boom, like, Let's go like I'm Yeah. But you know, obviously being destroyed. I'm definitely in a personality like, and I never really realized that. Yeah, I and I can't stop it. Like there's times at night, my husband sleeping, my daughter's sleeping, and I'm trying to walk and I'm like, How do I walk quietly? it those are just, you know, the intimidation. You know, there are people other people that have said, Yeah, everybody seems to be intimidated. But Brad herder. I'm gonna give a shout out to he says, everybody that meets me says that I'm intimidating, you know, when they meet me and I'm like, I can see that he's he has a presence about him. You have a presence about you. I think that people who have those a type personalities, those people who are determined those people who have there is a presence that exist man or woman, it doesn't matter. It just you have that authoritative, like, I'm gonna get it done. You got something to do. I'm gonna I'm gonna go and get it done kind of thing. Yet there are people that you would think would be more intimidating and I could throw out a number of names. They're not going to do that. Yet. They're not because I could I can actually list out some personality things that they do. There's one very tall individual, I think you probably know who I'm talking about. I don't know if you do or not. But
 
Lori Highby  30:10
In my head, I know, you talked about where you haven't even described him yet or her.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:16
When you talk to him, he actually bends over and crouches and gets a little closer to you, and talks a little softer, and he becomes immediately very comforting and kind. And he's no longer intimidating at all. But if you see him from across the room, he he is a very intimidating person. But the moment you start talking to him, he's just, he's a big gigantic teddy bear. And that's his charm is that he can draw people in and I'm sure that he could sell water to that's probably a bit ice to an
 
Lori Highby  30:52
Eskimo
 
Leighann Lovely  30:53
Eskimo, there we go. Because as soon as you start talking to him, he just, he kind of just pulls you in, and he gets to level despite the fact that he's ridiculously tall. And it's, it's very interesting on on, Okay, anyways, we went off on a tangent, I love tangents.
 
Lori Highby  31:12
That's okay. Me too.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:13
So, um, and, you know, you recognize these things when you're standing in a room of, you know, business owners. And, and it doesn't mean that, you know, again, once sitting down and having a conversation with you, or some of the other individuals, it's like, wow, I was because when I first met you, I have to say, I was like, wow, she's a little intimidating.
 
Lori Highby  31:39
From everyone, no, I know this about me. But thank you for verifying that it's still a legit thing that's happening.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:48
Because you, you have very much of a, okay, you said you don't know why. Because you are a wildly successful woman who people either want to be like, or fear they're not good enough, or at your level. Sure. But once you sit down and have a conversation with you, you're a very warm and welcoming person, but your intelligence level and your knowledge is through the roof. So you're like, Wow, can I keep up? Can I keep up with this person? So it's, it can be it can be hard to, to do that. It can be hard to keep up. And so especially people who have you know, the, what is it? Imposter syndrome? They're like, Oh, my gosh, she's gonna find me. It's it's one of those things that, you know, step push and pull constantly. Yeah,
 
Lori Highby  32:41
I've got impostor syndrome. Everyone does.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:44
I know, I know, every time. There's periods in everybody's lives, where they're like, Oh, can I do this? And am I right? I know.
 
Lori Highby  32:52
That's a whole another podcast episode. I was just about to go on a big long tangent decided we'll pause.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:01
Right? Yes, everybody has in the house. You right, that is a whole nother. So you also have a you have two podcasts now?
 
Lori Highby  33:10
Yes, I do, Social capital, which is, let's see episode like 370 something, I believe. So I interviewed professionals globally on the topic of networking, and how networking has really helped them get to where they are today. And my newest podcast, I have two amazing co hosts is called a broadcast for manufacturers. And worse, three broads. Talking about broad topics. Some of them may be a little taboo to some people and touchy. And others are just more like realistic related to the current times, you know, supply chain. People shortages and whatnot, but all focused around the manufacturing industry.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:00
Interesting. And you say some topics may be a little bit more touchy. And you don't have to go into extreme detail. But are we talking? I'm nosy?
 
Lori Highby  34:11
Well, sure. So I mean, we're three female and manufacturing is typically a very masculine industry. So that's really where we're talking about, you know, elevating women in that space. For sure. But, I mean, we're not it's not just a show for for women, it's a show for anyone that's in manufacturing, but I think it's important to talk about you know, the challenges that are being faced, depending on you know, not just you know, what gender you are but your sexuality and you know, your you know, people are discriminated often and in many different ways and, and unfortunately, you know, historically manufacturing is, is a white male industry and I think that And we're trying to say, especially from the people side of things, like there's a lot of extremely intelligent and very capable individuals out there, and they don't all have to be white males to work in that industry.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:14
Yeah, that's Wow, that's I'm gonna have to listen to that. That is a absolute great topic. And it's interesting. Last season, I had interviewed two women who wrote a book about Lean Manufacturing. Because both of them came up through the ranks and manufacturing, came together to wrote, wrote an awesome book about that. And talked about some of the struggles they had, as leaders in the manufacturing industry. And it was it's just, and there's a story that they go through and that they talked about, you'll have to, you know, anybody listening, you have to check that out. I don't even know what number episode that was. But because it's true there, you know, one of them how to get a membership to a, you know, Country Club, but it was like, areas of the country club that only men were allowed to go in. And she's like, how am I supposed to have meetings? Yeah, because it was usually only a man who held the, the position that she was in. So it's definitely, I mean, I'm seeing more and more women, I have a woman interviewing for, you know, a product management role. Yeah. And that's, and I get excited about that. Like, yes, we are seeing more and more women rise to the top in those types of positions. But it's, it's a struggle to see some of the women take on some of those positions, and you feel like you're still seeing discrimination in pay, you're still seeing discrimination and a lot of those things that that it's taken years to overcome. I had a conversation with a woman the other day who she says I want to be over the over the road truck driver, and she goes, and I just feel like, I won't be taken seriously, even in school. And I'm like, What? No, you you, if you want to do that you do you like that? Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, I don't know. I'm like, yeah, like, you got to stop thinking in the old way, or will never progress to a point in life where everybody else in the rest of the world stops thinking like that. Yep. So I love those conversations. I love the, again, you know, having conversations with dei experts on, you know, the, the psychology behind why our society still is struggling to get over some of them. I say get over, but it's not what I how I mean, it I mean, to evolve to evolve. Yes, yeah, I don't want to use a word that people are gonna, like, get over. Now evolve. And it's an understanding that, you know, psychology behind that is, is definitely. It's fascinating. It's also sad, when you really dive into it and go, Oh, okay. Because I grew up in Oconomowoc, in, you know, the 80s and 90s. And there was no black people living in Oconomowoc at that time. So I grew up very privileged, very blind to the world. And then I went to the military and got complete and total culture shock and started to actually experience the real world. Sure. Thank God. So, okay, another tangent. So that how many episodes are you in on that? And what is it called again?
 
Lori Highby  38:39
It's called a broadcast for manufacturers. I want to say we're at like, 10 episodes now. No, we're, we're in the double digits.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:48
It's amazing.
 
Lori Highby  38:49
Which is yeah, super, super exciting. Yeah, it's, great. It's I mean, the topics are broad, and that's intentional. The focus is manufacturing. So you know, we've talked about supply chain, we've talked about software and technology and manufacturing. So it's, it's a fun conversation, but we're not afraid to bring up the things and the topics that some people might not feel comfortable talking about.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:19
Right? Well, and, yeah, you shouldn't be you shouldn't be afraid to do that. This is a great, this is a great time for me to just say if somebody wants to listen to either one of your podcasts or reach out to you, and you I know that your business Keystone click also you kind of have a niche in that manufacturing space. Correct? Yep, yep. Yes.
 
Lori Highby  39:41
So if so, my contact info Sure. Lots of get in touch with me. Sorry. I'm used to being the host. Sorry. I'm like, I know what the question is. I'm ready to know Yeah, can you still click.com social capital podcast.com And I think it's MFG. You know, the podcasts you can find on all the podcast shows or Apple, you know, Google Play all that fun stuff. The best place you're gonna be able to connect with me though is LinkedIn. So just look for Laurie J, hi, V. And you can follow me I post daily information on marketing, plus, all podcast episodes get published there as well. Or just send me a message and say, you heard me on the on super awesome show.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:31
And this will also be in the show notes, too. So I'll put all your contact and everything in the show notes. And yes, my super awesome show. Okay, so we are coming to time, but you are not out of answering the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. So when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Lori Highby  40:53
That is a good question. You know, I would actually go back to my college years. And my advice would be to create relationships with the students that I was in school with, but more so the relationships with the professors that I had. And I think nowadays, it's so easy to do that, like you can, when I taught, I would just tell the students connect with me on LinkedIn, you know, and I, I can easily stay in touch with them. But when I was going to college, I mean, you didn't even have an email address. See, you would, you would either go to the scheduled open office hours of the professor, or you had their like home phone number, you would call them. Okay, that makes me feel really old right now. But that's because no one had like cell phones, you know, it wasn't common practice that everyone had a phone at that time. So it wasn't the same way you couldn't, you couldn't really foster a relationship with a professor back then. And I think I would do it more. So from a mentor standpoint, like I didn't really have a go to mentor to give me advice and counsel of my professional career, I really was all focused on figuring it out on my own. And that probably led to the whole ignorance and starting the business. Because I just was like, I could do this by myself. But I, in general, I think everyone should always have a mentor. That's probably why it's so important to me to help mentor, the team that I have now, because I didn't necessarily have one. And that was their age.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:43
You know, it's so I always think, Wow, I'm so far behind. I started networking so late in life. And then I realized that I really didn't I just kind of, I started networking right away. It just was done so drastically different. When I was coming. I mean, we Yeah, you still went to these events, but you just couldn't communicate the way that we do now. Yeah, like, I mean, I was on LinkedIn, when LinkedIn very first came out. I was, I just I always look back. And I'm like, why, why wasn't I doing this like this when I first started my career, and then I go, Oh, right. Right. Yeah, because we didn't have the ability to do this.
 
Lori Highby  43:25
Yet LinkedIn didn't exist. And we were going right on to college and right, first got started. Yeah. And actually, it took a while for LinkedIn to turn into what it is today, because it was almost like a phone book, you know, a contact book, to some extent for the longest time
 
Leighann Lovely  43:41
We used to, So when it first came out, we used to connect, we used to go to a party, it was called a LinkedIn party. We would meet people, then we would connect with them on LinkedIn. And that's how we that's how we made those connections. You had that when it very first came out? Yeah. I mean, I was like, on it, like, immediately. And then I was part of training people on how to use that. I mean, but that's how it wasn't like, go look somebody up on LinkedIn and connect with them and then eventually talk with them and build the relationship. It was no you met them first. You connected with them. And I mean, it was just it was really weird. Like, when I think back to the days of like, when I first joined, it was weird. Anyways, this has been such an awesome conversation. You know, we could have an entire like series of you and I talking about a whole bunch of different stuff. Yes, but um, thank you so very much for coming on and talking with me.
 
Lori Highby  44:52
Oh, this was super fun. I appreciate the invite and happy to go on tangents as many times as you want.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:01
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day
 
Lori Highby
 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorihighby/
 
https://mfgbroadcast.com/
 
https://lorihighby.com/social-capital-podcast/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, started, work, business, mentor, world, employees, team members, talk, question, manufacturing, conversation, linkedin, culture, women, word, agency, tangent, keystone, continue

Episode 17 - Randy Wilinski - Understanding People to Build Culture

Randy Wilinski, is someone who loves people and puts the utmost importance on customer service, thus making him the perfect person to speak about how to create and maintain culture because after all if we treated our employees more like customers and less like numbers we would find our employees as loyal as our customer. However, it starts with understanding and this is something that Randy speaks, trains, and coaches about. This is a fantastic conversation, don’t miss it!
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Randy Wilinski is a speaker, trainer and coach, he has worked as a Customer Experience Manager in several major corporations. As a speaker, he shows organizations how to build a culture of customer loyalty and resilience. Randy trains people in all occupations who interact with both internal and external customers. In his workshops, he trains leaders to build resilience in their workforce in order to increase their impact. He loves to mountain bike kayak cooking and restore classic cars in his free time.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:42
Randy, I'm so excited to have you here to talk with me today.
 
Randy Wilinski  01:46
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:49
Yeah. So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Randy Wilinski  01:54
All right, I will do that. So I am a speaker, trainer, coach, I also work in marketing. And I love people. I'm passionate about people. So that manifests in a lot of different ways. But because I'm passionate about people, I have found a niche and customer service. I've always loved helping people and being a solution and finding ways around problems and delivering you know, those amazing customer experiences. So that's where I found a niche. And then as I've gone on my speaking journey as well, I've had a great mentor Jeff Cordis, who he also speaks on employee retention. And then I've gotten into so much of working with him and seeing his speech. Sometimes I've even delivered that speech, which is really cool. But it's all still about people, right? It's all about people like retaining people is all about how you treat them good customer service is all about how you treat them. And so those are two areas that I talked about, and I'm passionate about. And then just individual people's resilience to problems to problem solving the problems and struggles that they have internally, to things that manifest on the outside which those can be employee retention problems, those can be customer experience problems, people don't realize to like, sometimes your customer is your co worker that you have to deliver something to. So you mix all that together, I'm passionate about people, and then I want to train with people and teach them anything that I can learn new that's going to help them do better at work do better in life.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:19
And this is why I love talking with you so much. Because you know, I love people, I'm passionate about people as well. So, again, prior to having you come on you and I had a great conversation. So I'm really excited to continue this conversation. But people are everything they make up all of our businesses they make up. I mean, if we can get back to that true customer service, whether that be talking like what you just said to our co workers and treating them like our customers, and that true customer service, when it comes to business to business wouldn't just be a better world to live in
 
Randy Wilinski  03:55
100% like that. That's the thing that I think I love most about it for people, as when I'm doing trainings with them is like this shouldn't just be how you treat this person or how you treat someone that reports to you. You should start going, Oh, this is how I should treat my spouse, oh, maybe I need to talk to my kids a little bit more this way. Instead of losing my temper. Maybe I need to think about things differently. I want this to transcend your work environment, because it is about people like again, that's that's why I think we hit it off. It's because you're so passionate about about finding people about putting them in the right place is about making them happy. Same thing, we're right there. We're in sync, I that's what I love to like the human interaction. Like I'm off the charts when it comes to like, you know, those tests like the Myers Briggs and all those stuff, but when you get into like the percentages, I'm like, off the charts for people, you know, like IV, we were talking about that. They're like, here's the disc we're talking about it at work and they're like, oh Randy, he Oh my God, he's, he's an AI like they there's no question about about you know, being extroverted caring about other people being attuned to people. And I think that that that no matter who you are, you need to learn those skills, you aren't going to get anything in life if you don't get the most out of your interactions with other humans.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:13
Right. And it's interesting that I just was having a conversation with somebody else about the younger generation struggling with that, you know, I, you and I grew up in a time when, you know, you have to pick up the phone and call people, right? Yeah. And you have a younger generation who you call them and you don't, they don't answer you.
 
Randy Wilinski  05:36
For that, that's rude. Maybe like, what do you call me out of the blue? Right, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:41
But you text them and it's like, instantaneous, they text back and you're like, Okay, you clearly have your phone in your hands. I just called you like, why can't I pick up the phone. So there's,
 
Randy Wilinski  05:54
That's a great, that's a great point. And that so we're elder millennials, I've heard that called before, I kind of liked that term. So I was like, and I want to ask your age, that would be rude, right? But we'll say an older millennial like me, if you're from like, 81 to 85, which is all cap off at my I was born in 85, you understand an analog world and a digital world. So we're actually in a really cool spot, because we can, like I remember having three channels on the television and turning it with the with the players because you don't know where the button went to. I remember that I remember, when pagers came out, like I had to have a paging so ridiculous, because I probably got like five pages on it, like I didn't even need it. But it was like the cool new technology. And then all the way to, you know, the instant gratification as I called dopamine drug dealer that we have, which is another huge problem that we're going to have to deal with as a society, because this thing is dinging bopping, begging all the time is a whole other problem. And those younger people, they're addicted to it, and then they use this technology to keep the human interaction like this, right, let's keep you let's keep you separate from me, this is my safe area. And not only younger people were people are straining people's calls, people are getting maybe a little less friendly than what they used to just because there's changes in technology, you're just seeing it so drastically with people who, like us can't even remember what life was like before, you could instantly connect with someone. So lots of shifts have happened. But it's definitely something that everybody needs to be thinking about and talking about. And even with their younger people, you got to you almost have to if they're unwilling to, you have to sell them on the concept that this human interaction, you know, we're, if we were in person, it'd be even higher, but we're having a conversation, we can see each other's body language, there's so much value in that as humans.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:47
Right, right. And so I was I was, I don't know where I was going, but I'm driving down the street, right? And I see people taking a walk and I'm like, wow, it's great. People are getting out taking a walk. But then you realize, no, wait, they're taking a walk that they're looking at, they're not looking up and looking around. They're looking down at their phone while they're walking. And I'm like, Oh my God. Like, even when you're out side, even when people are walking their dog, they still have their cell phones glued to them. And yes, I born at one. I'm 41 years old.
 
Randy Wilinski  08:26
Oh, you made the cut off. Right? Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:30
I used to pretend that I was not a millennial. I know. I know. But even when I got my first cell phone when I was 18 years old, and I I was one of the I used to get mad at my friends and be like, Are you are you kidding? Like, let's just go out and like if you're sitting and having dinner with somebody, you're really going to answer your phone. And so I guess I've become one of those like, old angry people when our conscience like don't answer your phone if you're sitting at dinner with somebody 100% 100% So I've kind of become a cranky like, old lady when it comes to that kind of now. I will admit, I have been guilty of that occasionally. And and then of course I find a way to justify it. Well, that one was important.
 
Randy Wilinski  09:24
My thing was important. What you're doing is stealing time from me. 100%
 
Leighann Lovely  09:32
Of course, you know, but yeah, I mean, even back when they first came in, and back then that was the black, you know, big phone with the Oh, the bag. Well, it wasn't that No, it wasn't no, it wasn't that but it was. It was still it was it just had the black screen and the green letters and if you text it took, you know, half an hour to make one text.
 
Randy Wilinski  09:55
Oh my gosh, yeah, there was no way you're gonna hit three buttons and then they came out with But it's funny to think about the technology evolution. But absolutely, yeah, the it stayed at this kind of contained level. And not everybody was doing it until it became just so easy. And now it's like we're integrated. It's like our, it's like our leg. If we're missing our phone, we like need it.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:17
Right, right. And my husband and I walk out of my house, I've walked out of my house and started driving away multiple times, though, without my cell phone. I'm like, Oh, crap, I gotta turn around and go get it. And my husband, How do you do that? And I'm like, because I when I get home, I don't want. I don't want to look at my phone. Unfortunately, I have to, because that's the only way anybody can communicate. There's been times where my dad has had to text my husband and say, you know, I've been trying to get a hold of Leighann all day.
 
Randy Wilinski  10:48
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things, it's now become such a norm. And it's become so like, if people get angry if they can't access you, or you don't get back to them. Whereas you think, obviously, if when we were growing up, you had to call someone on the phone, if you didn't get a hold of them, you left a message, and you didn't expect to have instant connection to people you didn't you didn't have these preconceived things that you put on them. While I text you while I do this, how come you didn't, it was just like, oh, they'll get back to me when they get back to me, right? 24 hours was very standard. And when you left the office, the office didn't follow you really. I mean, I suppose for some people, especially 90s time, they're getting bagged phones, car phones, that was the coolest thing that was giant blocks to walk around with, but in the world has changed so much so drastically. And we can't even keep up as humans, like we have to think about, not only can it potentially destroy communication, but it just changes our interactions. And so we got to have those conversations. So that's why the generational conversation has become so important. I love talking about it. Because it isn't your fault. If you're a young millennial especially, or a Gen Z, if you've had something like this your whole life. And then everybody's like, Oh, they're so stupid. They're so addicted to it. They are literally addicted to it. This is this is dingbat, bang, boom. This is the dopamine releasing, addictive. It's like gambling. It's like drinking. It's like any other advice. It's literally advice. And now you've given it to practically toddlers, we got toddlers that can't even speak on iPads. And there's, there's a thing to be said, like, look how smart we could make them look how we could do this. But they're not interacting with humans that are right, that's gonna affect that's gonna affect their development. And it's not their fault. That's what parents have to make that decision. Parents have to know about that, right? Lawyers have to know about how they want to have this relationship. Do you want to be a culture where you are always accessing your people, because that's the cool thing about millennials and Gen Z. They might like that they liked like the kind of the hustle and the move and maybe responding at 10 o'clock at night. Your older generations might go, don't call me on the weekends, don't text me about work. Don't call me about work. And so you can have conversations about boundaries, you can have conversations about what's best for the employees and work life balance. In the first program we ever made. It was called Making Millennials great, because everybody was hating Millennials so hard. And we were like, You know what, some of these things that are annoying you? I see. And we every time we'd have millennials in the crowd, they would be well, not me. And I genuinely believe it. Like they were leaders. They were moving. But like I've got friends that are doing those things. I've seen that I have employees that are annoying me with ghosting, give me a good example. You didn't get to find no baby boomers or Gen Xers ghosting employers getting hired and never hearing from them again. That's a new problem. Right? Not exist before.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:43
Right? Right. And the older generation is trying to figure out like, what I don't get it, but it is also a symptom of the way that some of these individuals have been brought up. 100% Which is exactly what you're saying. And yeah, it's a respect thing. When I was growing up, it was Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Or sir, or, you know, Mr. Smith, may I please. Some of these kids now I, you know, I'm doing you know, let me back up, because you hit a nerve. Some of these younger generations. It's like, they look at you like, you owe them something. And I just, I look at them and I'm like, how even employees even when they start a job, like, you will say something to them, and they're snarky, and they're like, and I'm dumbfounded when I started the job it was, I'm gonna follow the rules. I'm going to not that I didn't have, you know, chip on my shoulder and did you know didn't think that like, Oh, I'm gonna come in with all the brightest newest ideas.
 
Randy Wilinski  14:54
Because yeah, that's what young people do. Young people
 
Leighann Lovely  14:57
Correct, but I still respected the fact that I had a manager that I needed to report to? I would, you know, you don't know show your first day of work, you don't, you know, no show an interview and then expect to get another interview you, you know, if you're sick you, you call before your shift starts not what Yeah, two hours after. Right, right. And this is like a trend that you're constantly seeing. And it's it's insane. It's absolutely insane. Now before we continue, I love where this conversation is going. But before we continue I just so your role because we didn't really your role at some of these companies is you go in not only are you a speaker, but you are a trainer. And you are also a coach. Yes. So before we continue this, how did you like, how did you end up down that path?
 
Randy Wilinski  15:59
Well, two roads diverged in a woods. One was dark and scary, the other was bright and amazing. And I chose the bright and amazing road traveled now. So yeah, that's kind of an interesting story, even just to get into that. And that would have been a great thing to tell you. But this is this kind of a weird spot. So I was working in corporate America. And I really loved it. I was I was I was kind of a golden boy. That's always my goal. Whenever I work somewhere, to have everybody like me to deliver high on those things of like, what do they need? What do they want, I'll do whatever it takes. And so that's just a good way to climb up the corporate ladder, I was even thinking I should read a book about that, like, be in the Golden Boy, there's a way or golden girl, whatever, we'll figure out how to be made a goal. It's like, if somebody asks you for something, figure out how to do it. And there's nothing I dislike disdain or hate more than people that say that's not my job, or Oh, something something, it's like, okay, even if that's not my job, I'll never let those words come out of my mouth. It's like, let me find you the right person. That's the that's internal customer service. Oh, you need something, you need something that, hey, let me find the best person for that. Or oh, you know what, I'm gonna get that question for you. Now, I'm like the champion of solving that problem for them, even if I'm not the one that solves it. So I think that's just again, a key formula for climbing up at something is be open, be willing try things take on more than you feel you can do. And then you can always back down and say, great, you know what, I'm liking this I'm doing this, you know, I can be even better with if if we take this off my plate. But a lot of people want to push everything off and keep all these distances, and they're just not open to opportunities and things. Anyway, I digress. We could talk down that road if you want later. But so I was in corporate America, I remember I had a boss, I had a boss who it was like after work at like six or 7pm And we did have a chain it was in technology. So I was on a call list. And I think again, I was just exhausted from work. And I had fell asleep at like 637 or one of my is either one of my guys one of my girls didn't answer the phone for something got escalated I didn't answer until will say half an hour hour later I like woke up oh my god, I got missed calls what's going on? And you know, just got reamed out just got chewed out. And my boss before that was super great. restructured now I got this new boss, I don't have any credit with him. I don't want to ever he's got a different style. And he's just a jerk. I'm like, for no reason. Like, it's one thing to be like, Hey, Randy, you know, you know, I know this that you got to always try to be available, make sure that we get ahead of conversation just got reamed out and I got mad. And and I did the millennial thing too. With this. I said, I could keep working at this job with this guy who's a jerk. Or I could go do my own thing and own it. Because I'm never going to own this company. And most people, especially older generation, say Oh, super secure, great benefits, upward mobility, you know, put up with some BS for a little bit. And you'll you'll you know, who cares? And that probably in some respects, the right thing to do. But what I did instead is I jumped ship and I had my sister's family business that she had created with her husband out in Denver that like come to help us run it come out there and do it. And so I jumped ship I left Wisconsin I moved out to to Denver, and the quick synapses. We could go down this at another time. But imagine American Ninja Warrior meets American gladiator meets Wipeout all together. So you can picture that for small groups of people. So like 12 I mean, I guess up to like 300, 400 we've had in there. And there was a lot of team building opportunities. So that's where I first started learning that I love leading groups of people through obstacle courses, through hilarious challenges through through challenging things. And I like to adults, so like a lot of times you get a lot of the younger kids that would do these things with groups of parties, but I love the team building aspects. I could incorporate what I learned in the corporate world to this new environment. And it was super fun. And that was at least kind of the genesis of where I got the idea that I wanted to do more training and work with companies and help them and, and change their minds about things like that's where I started seeing it and getting really excited. And then just to cap it off, I had run into somebody who was a speaker and a trainer out in out in Denver. And one of the questions, of course, they asked is, well, you know, what do you want to be when you grew up? It wasn't quite that. But, you know, what do you want to do for your future? That's not I'm like, I want to do what you do. And so her and I had gotten to meet and I really liked what she was doing. She was an author, she was a speaker, she was a trainer, that kind of got me kicked off on it. And then what was perfect is a lifelong friend, and the father of a gentleman that I went to school with who has been a lifelong friend in high school, his dad was a speaker and a trainer. So like, he had talked to me about this, before I left saw the potential, I had this another experience out in Denver. And then I'm like, Okay, I gotta move back by family, I want to go reconnect back in Wisconsin, we came together and then created something out of that. So it's kind of a long way to like, it's a little serendipitous. Like, I just, I fell into it a little bit. And then I had a mentor that was really going to be able to help me and it's just been a, it's been a process. It's not been a it's not been a straight road, I'll tell you that for sure. But it's been a process. And again, it's still something I love and enjoy doing till this day.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:13
That's amazing. And you know, what, I think that the majority of people out there is some are extremely intentional, but a lot of us fall into, you know, our areas of expertise or passions in in some way or another. And that's quite a story. That's that's quite a story.
 
Randy Wilinski  21:34
It's yeah. Is it fate, right? It's like, if I would have stayed here, maybe I would have been anyway, because because Jeff, who I do co speaking with, especially the optimizing generations, he was telling me, I should be doing it before I left. And I'm like, Ah, yeah, you know, I could maybe, and then I go out there. And it's still pulling me even though it was like it almost was chasing me down. I'll say I like it. Like, it's like, I got a little more experience. And then I had that and I gravitated. And I told him that you were gonna go to the seminar. You know, we're going to learn about this, I want you to understand the business. And then when I came back, we've been speaking, I think that was like 2015 or something. We've been doing speakings and trainings together ever since. But it's like, it's like the dream chased me down. I didn't choose the game. The game chose me, or at least I hope so. I hope that's true.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:20
That's awesome. That's amazing. I love it. Yeah. So optimizing the generation for greatness. Yeah. Okay. So tell me about that.
 
Randy Wilinski  22:31
So you know, what's really cool, I'll tell you two, you only asked for one. And I'll give you more than you asked for this. This really started as making Millennials great. It was built on five pillars, I'll just cover them really quickly, because it evolved into well for bringing all the generations together, it's a little different. But what we were saying for millennials is vision, then this can be for employees, people need to know why what they're doing matters, and why their job matters. It's so important. It transcends generations. But it's what we said, like you could have gotten away with it with with baby boomers, where they're just like, give me my paycheck, give me a raise every couple of years, whatever. And I'll stay and I'll be loyal, you need to have a vision because Millennials have a higher expectation. They want it to be and younger, and Gen Z, they want to be connected with something that matters. Number two, growth. It's the number one thing for younger people, growth, growth, growth, they want to go somewhere that they can learn more that they can grow, that they can be challenged, you have to provide those opportunities, especially for younger people, again, older generations would be like, Yeah, whatever. If it's stable, if it's good, if I can take care of my bills, you know, different cultures, and like the Gen X, like you said, You're right on the edge of Gen X. That's the work hard party hard type generation. They want to work really hard, and they want to disconnect from work. It's just typical, right? And Baby Boomers, I want something super secure. I want to save for my future I want to provide, I want to be a hard working but growth it once they're established. They're not interested in it. So younger people growth, feedback. So this is the one that just kind of fun, because with younger people, a lot of people think that we're kind of whiskey, right? We can handle harsh feedback. And there is some degree that you have to use a little different tact with younger people, because if you try to hit them over the head don't like you would a younger or older person like a baby boomer, if they got cussed out by their boss, they'd be like, Man, Screw that guy. And they'd be drinking about a beer and complaining to their friend and then they'd go back to work. You cuss out a millennial or a Gen Z. You're never going to see them again. They are leaving time. Yeah, so So proper feedback. Okay, but you got to adjust it you can't use that way to talk
 
Leighann Lovely  24:41
And, and I just want to make a comment on the point where you so it's hard right now for because a lot of them managers are baby boomers, or Gen Xers. And they don't you know, again, it's hard for them. to manage the younger generation and understand that you can't give them feedback, the way that you get feedback, if you go and do it the way that you're accustomed to, or have throughout your career, and that's the struggle that I always come up against, when, you know, placing individuals and companies because, you know, I can't go to my client and be like, Yeah, so my, my employee called me today, and wants me to find him a new job, because apparently, you went out there and, and use the tough approach and said, You know, I'm gonna need you to, you know, and basically cussed them out. And you try to explain that to the older generation. They're like, well, I just told them, they needed to step up their game or whatever. And yeah, you should have, I guess, maybe held their hand. And, and again, I'm, you know, I'm being facetious. But.
 
Randy Wilinski  25:53
But there's a spectrum on that. And you're 100%, right, because like, cussing people out, it never worked, ever, but you could have gotten away with it, you absolutely won't. Even they're like, I'm as gingerly as humanly possible. And these people are just not resilient, which is another area I'm passionate about. They're just like, they're kind of what I always say these fun, like, what was one I heard in the south a hothouse Lily, like, ooh, it's gotta be everything's got to be perfect, or they're gonna wilt. Like, that's a great explanation. But so you're right. There's this, like, there's a spectrum, but then it's like, how, where are you coming from? Where are they coming from? How can we have understanding and maybe some of that is, there's a conversation a little bit about what feedback is gonna look like, and that you care about them. And people give you a lot of grace, if they know you actually care about.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:43
It's the it's, it goes back to something I've heard, especially over the last couple of years, more and more and more. Bring me a seasoned individual, because I don't have time to handhold somebody. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And I'm like I, you know, and again, then you have other people who are like, Oh, I really want a young individual who will fit into, you know, see, I've always, you know, my mold, right, right. You've got you've got companies who are, you know, on both ends of the spectrum. But I get that that term, bring me a seasoned individual. I don't want to handhold them. And I just cringe when I hear that, because I'm like, yeah, it's not all, all they're asking for is proper training and understanding you, as a company need to pivot to them. So that they and if you did, you would have you could have the best employees in the world.
 
Randy Wilinski  27:52
Super loyal, super loyal when you when you give back? Absolutely. You're 100%. Right. And I'll give you a very short example. So when I worked out there, in Colorado, there was one of the leaders out there that was talking about someone and they're basically like, oh, you know, we got to clean up after the night, make sure that facilities clean floors mop, like, oh, just let so and so go. Why should we let so and so go for the night, we still have stuff? Let's do well, they're not very good at mopping. And I just don't want to pay them to do that. And I'm like, and then it got to like, well, let's train them. Let's teach them how to do it properly. So you'll be happy with it? No, I don't want to have to pay them to train them to how to do that. Like there was this expectation that they should come in and already know how to do something. And if you they didn't, it was frustration, at the very least, and they didn't want to confront them about it. And I've heard that from a lot of people. They've said, you know, we've had big impacts when I was just annoyed that they would dress this way or I was just annoyed that I hadn't even tell them, Hey, you can't show up to work late. You know, it's not cool for you to do XYZ. And I always tell people is another good example, have the conversation that if you and I are talking. It's not I'm not multiday. Ah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know why we're not doing that? Because other trainers will be oh, well, they are multitaskers. It's totally normal, you know, don't get upset about and I'm like, no, because we're humans. And so that is a feedback opportune, hey, listen, I understand. I'm that way with my phone, sometimes kind of like what you said I'm guilty of it at sometimes, too. However, it breaks the interaction, it breaks the connection. And it makes it that that's more important than what we're doing here. And I don't want you to do that with anyone you interact with, when you're interacting with them. I want you to have good responses, and just explaining that to them. And if you tell them about that, and you're like, No, I want you to do this, I'm concerned with how you do things. I'm giving you feedback because I actually care about your success. They're gonna love that and they're gonna take that versus like, you know, off your phone. So as as another fellow ones, one of the most fun trainings I ever did. So we broke up the group of managers that were these were roofers. So these were like the foremen, and then we brought everybody in later and this was so fun. And they told everybody at the meeting, they were rolling out that you had to take all your phone and put them in a box, and they were gonna lock them for the whole day. And I'm like, Ah, oh, that just hurts me, that just means there's a problem that has spiraled out of control, and you don't know what to do with it. So you have to get authoritarian about it, which is the next point, which is autonomy. You don't want to have to be where you're an authoritative person, where you're lording over someone and controlling every step of the way with their life, because they're not going to like that you need to put into your culture we're going to get worked on, and I'm going to trust you. So that's just another piece of like, you see that same thing where they're not doing it properly, they don't even know what they should be doing, they're angry that they have to have the conversation. So they come up with like, we're gonna lock it down.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:44
And that's the worst thing to have to do is to where management allows it to get so far out of control, that then they come in with the hardline approach of, here's what we're going to do set up the expectations in advance. You have all of your have all your employees, and then if you have one person who's a problem, then you pull them aside,
 
Randy Wilinski  31:09
Deal with that one.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:10
And deal, right. But I've seen an n, right, I've seen and talked to too many companies who were like, well, we've got one bad app, we're gonna punish everybody. I'm like, yeah, what's, yeah, you're gonna have a whole lot of pissed off people.
 
Randy Wilinski  31:25
Exactly, it's just a way that they can avoid dealing with that uncomfortable conversation directly. So sometimes you have to have uncomfortable conversations, you have to tell people, like you can't be doing that. And other people might have let them get away with it or might not think it's a big deal. But if you have a good reason for it, you have a compassionate, crucial conversation with them. And you come to understanding,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:49
Right? So I, this did not happen to me. But I was talking with a friend of mine who was managing brought in an office as they manage, they hired an office assistant there, this is their employee. And she was in charge of sitting at the front desk, and you know, doing data entries, pretty simple stuff. Not not. But she sorry, this is hard to get through without laughing. You're young girl, really smart girl, but she would bring her iPad in and watch Netflix at her at the front desk.
 
Randy Wilinski  32:32
Tell her like, Ah, right. Like,
 
Leighann Lovely  32:36
I mean, this for me would be like, what do you what are you doing? You can't watch TV. You can't watch TV at work. I mean, to have this conversation, sit down with her and be like, Yeah, you can't do that. I mean, and this person was like, Well, why not?
 
Randy Wilinski  33:01
Yeah. Why is he frustrating? Not only were you breaking the rules, you don't even understand why it's a problem. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  33:10
And this, and again, you know, I laugh about that we laugh about this. Yeah. But this is truly a generational thing like, I can I and I, and I thought of this when you said, you know, multitasking, because there's been multiple times where I'm sitting and talking with somebody, and they have there were interviews, they were doing an interview with a phone in their hand glancing down and texting back.
 
Randy Wilinski  33:35
Oh my goodness, goodness.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:39
Right.
 
Randy Wilinski  33:41
See, it's funny, like somebody hasn't taught them properly. And here's, here's let me make let me get a little philosophical with you. And it's a belief. I don't know if I can 100% Prove it. But it's like, through observation, I can say that I do not have kids myself. But I have witnessed 1000s of kids interact with parents and adults. But based on what I did in Denver, because it was so much fun. We always get families in there. And so I understand, like, what kind of actions will produce what kinds of kids and resilient but one of the big things with this is, they weren't taught these things properly, because their parents were trying to be very nice. They're trying to be their friends. And back in the day, your parents weren't trying to be your friends. They weren't trying to be cool with you. They didn't maybe even care if you'd like them. They had rules and they had standards and you were going to represent the family in a certain way. So they would sit on you and be like, stand up straight, make eye contact, firm handshakes, pay attention, like they sat on and everyone's like, Oh, that's so mean. It destroys all this creativity and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's some truth of all arguments. You know, like there's a points of views that you can say, I get what you're saying, but we've lost the discipline for doing the right thing and teaching kids like No, no, this is highway is my way or the highway, you will show up on time. You You are going to follow through on this, you will do this. We're like, Oh, that's so mean, it's so authoritarian, I want my kids to love me. And you have to want them to be successful, more than you want them to love you as a parent, right? And so you want to do these things, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  35:15
I look back at my childhood. And there were plenty of times where I remember hating my parents, because they were on me about, you know, you need to do this, you need to do this, you have to do that. I mean, now, I grew up, I grew up as a very well adjusted woman who loves her parents, and it didn't break me it, it actually created a very, if I may say, successful woman who, for the most a wildly successful woman now. It's, you know, I'm, well, now I have a four year old, so I'm not on time, all the time, in the morning, because, you know, trying to drag a four year old out of the house sometimes is, but, you know, I have an understanding of, you know, I make my appointments on time, when I have a business meeting, I'm on time. When I, you know, my dad, when I work, you know, I put half my money in the savings and my you know, there were certain things. Yes, I just already told you. Yes, ma'am. No, sir, you know, that. Those were just things that you don't see anymore. And, you know, like for my daughter, she's four years old. She when she's on her iPad, and yes, she has, you know, her iPad that she plays, which she already knows all the technology of that, when I talked to her, and she doesn't respond, I will walk over and I will take it out of her hand. Because she's so engrossed in it, that she's not hearing me and I go up, okay. You need to remove the distraction and say, You need to listened to what I'm saying now. And then she looks at me, and she's like, I want my iPad back. And I'm like, then you need to hear me. And you do what I'm telling you to do. And let me tell you, she'll do that right away, because she wants her iPad back.
 
Randy Wilinski  37:06
Well, and so what's cool about like, she say, the iPad, we had Sesame Street, right, we had things that we'd watch on TV. So we're definitely I'm sure that the older generations are like, I would have been playing with a wooden toy. And I'd have been figuring stuff out and you stupid kids are in front of these screens, you know, so there's always like a thing, right? And now we owe these kids, they shouldn't be doing that. Well, the good side is you can make high touch high interactive, very smart things on an iPad, that are really cool and good for them. As long as you have some sort of balance and moderation. And it's not their digital babysitter all the time. Yeah, I see that. And I understand screaming kids, I've been around and I'm like, oh, man, if I could just get them to stop and I got five minutes to breathe. I'll do anything. Totally, totally get it. But you also have to have like, what you're saying is like, the device isn't more important than the human interaction, you can't be so engrossed by it, that you don't even know what's going on around you. You have to be sometimes meaning. And it's mean with love. It's actually talking about this. And Jeff talks about this, because he's all of his kids are millennials. And he's like, I kind of look sometimes the millennials, a little bit like they're my kids, because all my kids are millennials. So I understand it. It's that tough love. And we don't like the word tough love, because we envision just angry parents spanking, but tough love is I actually care so much about you that I'm willing to risk our relationship to do what's right a little bit, or I'm willing to push back and make it and that's what a good parent is going to do. That's what a good boss is going to do. Like, I care about you. So I'm not doing this for my own selfish reasons, because I don't care about you. And I just want you to get it done. And I want you to make my life easier, even though sometimes there could be things like that at play for everybody involved, because we're humans. But if they know you care about them, and you set something up, and you've built that credit with them, that they know this, they will respect you, which is also what kids have to do with their parents. Like that's good management, good leadership, right? You want to have respect, with compassion, you want to have discipline with grace, like it's both. It's never one or the other. And a lot of people are just comfortable operating. And either let's ignore everything until I'm so angry. I can't, or let's be these like dictators on the rules on running. I'm running a military operation with my employees to do as I say now, because I said it. That's even a quote we put in there. There's a so for autonomy. I have a quote from Patton. And it's roughly if I don't remember, but it's like, don't tell people how to do things exactly how to do them. Tell them what you want done, and let them surprise you with their ingenuity. Patton said that they get how old that quote is. And it's 100% True. It's more true today than ever. Tell me what you want to get done. Give me some guardrails. Now, some people are like, well, problem with millennials. younger people, they want to color all over, they want to do things anyway, they want to do them. And like, we've got some rules here that are hard and fast. And so that's an expectations. That's a boundary conversation you have to have with those people. Why are we doing it only this way for this? And then where are the areas that you can have autonomy, you can have those differences. So yeah, but you're right. Why have these lacked? Why have these gotten lost? It is, in my roughest assessment that parents don't want to be mean, they want to be liked by their kids, they wish they had a little more loving relationship, maybe with their parents, they wish they weren't forced to do these things. But then they don't realize why will they never enforce those things. They never had those expectations. So then their kids annoy them, because technically, that is their own internal standard, but they're not projecting it and putting it on them like they may be.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:52
And I go back to a story that I remember I was probably about, I would say was 22 years old, I 20, maybe 23, it doesn't matter. I was working with a an older woman who had think she had like six or seven grown children. Okay, um, the most of them are girl, the baby that the baby of the family that she had, I think was around 15 or 16 years old. And I remember her telling me a story about how they were struggling with her. And she was you know, she was skipping school, she was doing all these things, and they were trying to work with her and and force her to go to school. And this 16 year old or 15 year old came back to them and said, There's nothing you can do about it. Because if you try to make me to go to school, I'll tell them that you're beating me. And I went, wait.
 
Randy Wilinski  41:43
Clear a spot for me, well, I'll just beat you instead.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:44
Right? And I kind of went, Oh, wow. Okay, that puts a whole new spin on discipline. Huh?
 
Randy Wilinski  41:56
Yeah, so now we're talking about a societal problem and societal norm. Because if you went back 50 years, not only what your parents beat you, but every other adult that saw you missed it. We're okay with it.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:11
And I go back to the story, because we as a society has it things have definitely flipped on their head. And I'm not saying that every kid is you know, pulling the, you know, a lie. And I'll tell everybody, but I think that parents have lost a little bit of that one. If you tell it you know, your your friends, oh, I spanked my kid, you get that look, have you spank to your kid? Yeah, horrible. How dare you. But there are times that warrant a absolutely heavy hand of you know, my daughter was doing something that was putting her her in harm's way. And when I was trying to adjust her, or trying to adjust the behavior, she wasn't listening. And I'm not saying that I spanked her. But it took a little bit more than just, Hey, honey, don't do that. It took a you know, much more aggressive approach, because she was about to, you know, break her arm kind of situation.
 
Randy Wilinski  43:14
Yeah, absolutely. How are you going to negotiate with someone negotiate with a four year old right or, like something they have no concept over.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:22
So but I think that there has become a time and I'm not just speaking to parenting, I'm speaking also to the workforce where people have become so so happy people have become so. So you know, you can't you know, do this, or you can't do that. Because if you discipline them the wrong way, there is a possibility that this person could come, you know, back with a lawsuit. And I think that because the world, you know, has, I think it's settled down a little bit. But there was a time period that, you know, HR took a shift and kind of went, Oh, crap, we need to really be careful with every conversation we have. An HR really should be part of that conversation, if you're going to be disciplining somebody or doing some training with somebody because we don't want to get sued. And I think part of you know, part of that makes some of it. And, you know, the we'll just do the blanket approach so that we're treating everybody the same lockup, all the funds, then we're not just discriminating, then. Correct. And I, unfortunately, that is just part of the way that things have shifted, because we became a Sue happy society. Yeah, and everybody is afraid to death to get sued or to get or to be accused of discrimination because one person was, you know, on their phone at you know, at their job all day, and now Oh, you're picking on me? Well, I'm gonna sue you because you took my phone away because I was breaking the rules and you know, and of course it It's not that person's fault. It's the job that they're, it's their fault.
 
Randy Wilinski  45:05
We definitely have reversed that. Just to touch on that. And please continue. But this idea of personal responsibility, and what I brought to it and what how I created the problem, there's a lot of this, this is what you this is your responsibility, I'm not responsible for my own actions, you're responsible, you should have been doing something different. So I didn't do that, that goes into all kinds of suing things where people really do for that, but you're the one who did it stupid. No, they shouldn't have even given me the opportunity where that gonna happen. So I'm right there with you, we got a societal problem that you have to deal with.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:41
Right? I mean, it goes all the way down to, you know, I have a an employee scheduled for an interview, and they don't show up. And then when they want to reschedule a, well, they are not going to hire me because I'm a woman, or they're not, they're not interested in me, because I'm XYZ or whatever it might be. And it's like, Wait, what was it that they missed the appointment? It has nothing to do with the fact that you know, showed your interview, it now has to do with the fact that you're, you know, it's like, what? How are you avoiding personal, you know, avoiding the personal responsibility of no showing an interview, or, you know, showing up to your first day of work, and no calling no showing, but now, it's now it's the jobs or the company. That's discriminating against you because of XYZ. It's like, yeah, so and I see that constantly. Yes, constantly. Because, again, I'm in you know, my day job is in staffing. So, you know, and I don't want to take the cynical approach, I still I'm a true optimist, I still see people for, you know, the good. And I don't know how I continue to do that, after 17 years in this industry, but I do I truly do. I, I try to find the good in people, no matter no matter what. But there is definitely I mean, part of that is, and unfortunately, because of that shift, we as parents, and it comes down to that we as parents have those fears. So we've raised our children that way. And now, our children, or the you know, the new the youngest working, they just continue to perpetuates these behaviors. And, you know, in order to fix that, they're going to have to learn from the generation before them, which is always what happens, right?
 
Randy Wilinski  47:42
100%, you brought up some great points that like, the problem is so big in society, it's like we neither you nor I are going to be able to solve it. ourselves, the only thing we can do is that everybody we interact with we either we either explain, we preach about it, we bring out information to inform people, we talk about it, and we start conversations, the best we can do is making an adjustment with the people around us because it is a big thing, there's a been a big shift, and it creates obvious problems. And you, you some it gets to the point where people want to argue about everything being relative, and it's kind of this and that and oh, well, just this or you know, and we even talk about this and this, you know, you can go back to like we have a quote of I think it was Socrates or somebody pretending to be Socrates in a play. But you know, it's like from BC about how they know this generation is terrible. And they don't respect their elders, and they're lazy and like, it's been going on that friction in generations for a long time. But if you just look at it and reality, if you see some of these these end, things that are happening, you can say there's nothing good about that. There's nothing good about people making up frivolous lawsuits, there's nothing good about a daughter threatening a loving mom or dad that they're going to lie about them. Like there's nothing good about that ever, any time. And so we have to have very candid, very compassionate to things you always have to document because the reality of society is people are taking less and less personal responsibility. And and they put so much onus on employers to prove that they did everything possible. If you're a good employer, you did do everything possible. And you should be able to document that. If you're a good manager, you should be able to document that you gave this person every possible chance, and it just wasn't going to happen. And then if you personally show them that you care and you do really try your best, you're going to mitigate those things. You can't completely eliminate them. You got to do your best. It's a sad reality. Because in other cultures and other countries even today, and other times in history, it would never be thought of but then you also had people and it still happens today and it flies under the radar that people do discriminate for a variety of reasons like again, like not that they're specifically They picking on him, but they don't want to invest in them. They don't want to train them. They didn't like the way they did something they want to get rid of them. Well, that's not really fair either. So we just have a lot of stuff that we have to figure out. And that's where, again, conversations like this, when you go in and work with people and one on one when you work with those candidates, and you're the neutral recruiter, and you could say, no, no, they didn't discriminate against you, when you don't show up. It looks really bad. It doesn't matter who you are. That's gonna they don't want to deal with because that's your first impression. Number one first impressions used to be like you drilled in that you make a good first impression. Now, you know, you're gonna get another interview, if you screw up a first impression. Well, no, I think they don't like this. Why would they have given you an interview in the first place? Right? Like, this is illogical. This is nonsense. So take some personal responsibility, you know, maybe, maybe you maybe you also agree, like, I don't want to put this person in front of someone, because that's going to make me look bad. But maybe you said, You know what, I genuinely believe that something happens, they don't know you well enough. I know you better, I'm going to put you in front of a different whatever. However, if you like, you fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice. Like if it happens again, then we're done. Because you can't make me look foolish twice. I'm not going to allow it and you have to have maybe that level of candid thing like there are real consequences to this. And then they'll probably if they do it, then they'll go shit, they won't even abide.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:23
And I'm I am. All my listeners know that I am a true believer that life happens and life is messy. Things come up like kids get sick. Flat tires do actually happen. Not nearly as much as you know, I've heard and people have claimed but you better off let the air out of your tires make it good. Believe you mean flat tires do happen cars break down family members gets sick emergencies come up constantly. I you know, I have emergencies all the time in my feed the point, right, it's a fact of life, I am a true believer that we cannot separate work and life all the time there. There are times when they blend together. I get it, I understand it and compassionate about it. What I do not accept is that you cannot show up without some explanation prior to that. We carry as you have been talking about a a piece of you know, machinery and machinery a high tech computer. Yeah, in our pocket. Everywhere we go. So in this day and age, there is no possibility no excuse. And using Oh, my cell phone was dead. How often is your cell phone die? I mean, I don't think I'm pretty sure my cell phone has not died on me. In fact, I know my cell phone has not died on me in years. Yes. Because now I have a charger in my car. I have a charger at work. I have a charger. They now have, you know, banks
 
Randy Wilinski  53:17
to plug into. All right.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:19
So the excuse I'm so sorry, my cell phone was dead. Yes. It's just not. It's just not realistic.
 
Randy Wilinski  53:27
You're not a very good planner is what it sounds like no. Plan, no backup plan. No. Okay. But if that would even if that were true, it would say something negative about you.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:39
I mean, you can now go to a brewers game. And if you need to, you can pay to charge it at a birthday. I mean, so anyways, we are coming to time. Okay. Oh, I would love to ask you the question of the season. All right. It didn't land on me. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Randy Wilinski  54:10
Such a great question. I think people always have their like, I live with no regrets. I wouldn't go back and change anything. I think I could pick a ton of great things that I would go back. You know, I would love to be a time traveler and be like, hey, actually, I loved that for myself. But I could think of a few things that stood out that I have said before. I would say a couple of things in high school in college. I think in general a lot of things. The level. I went to a very nice high school but it wasn't that hard for me. If I showed up to class I could get by I could remember things. If I took notes, I will remember it. But I was like man, I was in school. I didn't really have anything else that was like absolutely had to do. There was a lot of people and a lot of knowledge and I think I I could have done even better than what I did. Like it was already easy for me. So I wasn't trying as hard. I'm like, but there was opportunity. If I was more disciplined, if I was a little more, I could have taken everything possible and squeezed it out of that. And even like, you know, like a slingshot, I could have pulled back leaned into, it's super hard and flung even further and faster forward. So that's one thing. That's something that it's just like, if there was opportunity, there was more opportunity, I could have squeezed out of that situation. And that's one if I can get to, I also think about it a lot. That even though like I was being a very millennial at that point that I left that job, because of that guy had this amazing experience, life changing, I built great friends in Denver, I would have done a little different, I would have stayed maybe another year, year and a half, I would have jumped that rung, but they were already like, I can't believe you're leaving, like we were just gonna promote you, like I would have got promoted that next level, I would have experienced a few kind of cool things in corporate, that would have been very good for my development. And then I would have probably left a year or two later. And then I would have went out to Colorado because I had such a great experience. I met so many great people. But then I ultimately didn't completely follow through with that I shouldn't say fell through. But like I wanted to do, you know, family businesses are tough. And people have different visions, and they have different things. So I'm like, I really enjoyed my experience out there. But it was never also going to be mine. I thought, Oh, this is gonna be mine. I'm going to take this over. And it's like, no, the entrepreneur who started it really wanted to keep it going that way, didn't want to give me as a millennial as much autonomy. So I'm like, Man, I love the experience. But it didn't go as I thought, and I came back to Wisconsin, anyway, why did I ever leave, but I was like, I can't trade that because I have, I have lifelong friendships from that. I have totally different experiences, I loved being out there. So I had to do it, I just want to change the time. And again, that would have been just a little better for everything in my belief, but who knows, maybe that would have ruined everything. It's like the butterfly effect. I don't know, maybe it would have destroyed everything, and everything happened the way it was supposed to. I hope that that's true.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:04
I truly do believe that everything happens the way that it's supposed to. And, again, I would love to be able to go back and whisper in my own ear about like, hey, it's gonna be all right, you're gonna get through this. But I'm one of those people that all of the the pains and all of the tribal triumphs that I went through have built me up to be who I am today. And I yeah, I don't know that I would change anything. And I've, I've had a rocky, I've had a rocky road. You know, most roads that are worth listening to have a lot of twists, and turns and some tears and some, you know, scream out loud, jump up down triumphs. So yeah, but thank you,
 
Randy Wilinski  58:00
I'm 100% with you on that. I love that you look at it that way. That really is how I look at it. And what I tell people all the time, it's like you need those bad things to give you perspective. And to appreciate the really good, you needed those hard times that fire to forge your character. Those are so important that you think you can take those out and maybe even as a parenting thing, just to wrap up the conversation we had from before. I'm going to remove all the obstacles for my kids. You create weak kids because they didn't have any adversity, because they didn't have those struggles because they didn't have those tough times because you wanted to make everything perfect. Well, how can you not create a less resilient population a less resilient group of kids, if you give them no hardships to struggle against struggle, hardships, pain, those are usually good for you. And I would say that the easy thing is if it doesn't break you and completely destroy you, but it's right up to that edge. You're gonna be really strong and be capable of doing so much more in the future. So don't shy away from those. Those dark parts of your past don't shy away from those hard times. Right because those forge character.
 
Leighann Lovely  59:09
You want to know how I learned that I could not fly.
 
Randy Wilinski  59:12
Jumping off your roof of your house with a cape. Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  59:15
Well, something similar to that. You remember the what is that rocket right? You sit on somebody's feet and they shoot you into the air?
 
Randy Wilinski  59:23
Rocket, ride? Yeah, okay, okay. Oh, you like you're laying and they like shoot you up and something like that
 
Leighann Lovely  59:28
tell you they're laying down. You sit on your feet and then they shoot you up. Okay, all right. A rocket ride. I learned that I could not fly I broke my arm. Let me tell you, I never tried to fly again. Those are the moments you know when you it hurt like hell. Yeah, but you know what, I'll never try to fly again.
 
Randy Wilinski  59:52
You'll never do something foolish like that. Because you have wisdom more experience. You know the threshold of your body? No A little bit more.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:00:01
If you if you wrap your kids in bubble wrap and send them out to the world, eventually they're going to grow up and they're going to be out in the world on their own, no longer wrapped in bubble wrap, it is going to be a hell of a lot harder for them to figure things out.
 
Randy Wilinski  1:00:18
Exactly. I tell him this, you can either be tough on your kids, or you can let the world be tough on right, you can let them struggle and Flounder and hit their head against and get discouraged. Or you can provide opportunities for them to grow. You can't do both. You can't be super nice, wrap them in bubble wrap. And pretend like that's what the world is like, because all that bubble wrap is gonna get popped,
 
Leighann Lovely  1:00:39
right? And think, think about their mental health. Yes, when they are out in the world on their own it I mean, they're going to be beat to shit in that first couple of years. And they're probably going to come running home to mommy and daddy going. I'm really depressed. I'm really sad.
 
Randy Wilinski  1:01:00
That's Yes, yeah. Geez, we could have we could have, we should have a whole other conversation to about just even the mental health crisis. Because when I do, yes, we have three programs on this. And one of this is a generation when we were talking a little bit about, I have that millennial one and then we have one of millennials and Gen z's. And there's a lot of things in there that statistically are going on right now. Like there should be every opportunity in the world. But But depression and and people medicating and things like that and feeling unfulfilled, like that's at an all time high. Even other countries in poor countries, people in younger generations aren't aren't experiencing this, what we're experienced from this, like access and from opportunity, but also what we've been told. And I think a lot of times younger generations have been told a lie, which is you can be do or have whatever you want for existence. And you you cannot, you can work really hard at something, you can have natural abilities that lend to that you can have experiences that make you perfect, and you can go out you can be happy, but it's not going to come chase you down really is not going to make it happen without you making it happen.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:02:09
You are not entitled to anything. reach it. It's in that the it's the entitlement generation. It's the well I exist on this planet for the world to give me something. No you don't. You are not entitled to anything. You need to get off your ass and make it happen yourself. And I am. I am so sick and tired of people like well, I mean, I went to college. Okay, did you have a job? Well, no, I'm trying to get my first job. Yeah, you're how old? You're 20 you're 24 I'm sorry. You've never had a job. I started my first job when I was like 11 or 12. No, exactly. Exactly. So okay, we could go on for another
 
Randy Wilinski  1:02:54
week. You will our right.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:02:58
But since we are a time if somebody wanted to reach out, contact you, how would they go about doing that? Randy?
 
Randy Wilinski  1:03:05
I think one of the best ways unless you always get to see a content you get to know me a little bit more. I love Instagram is one of my favorite LinkedIn as my other favorite, both of those at Randy wilensky, you can find me there aren't that many of us out here, easy to find, would love to connect with you. I do have a website, Randy belinsky.com. But I always love if we can get an interaction where you get to see a little bit of what I'm up to what I believe in Instagram or, again, LinkedIn, great ways to connect with love to have a conversation, love meeting new people figuring out what they've got going on. So hit me up on that.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:03:39
Awesome. Hey, this has been such an amazing conversation. I love just to have an awesome, great conversations with brilliant, intelligent people. So, Randy, it's been awesome. Thank you so much for joining me.
 
Randy Wilinski  1:03:55
I appreciate this opportunity. I appreciate you. I can't wait to have another conversation with you. I look forward to the future.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:04:03
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/randywilinski
 
Instagram – https://instagram.com/randywilinski?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=  
E-mail - rwilinski@fourevamedia.com
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, work, conversation, millennials, parents, kids, problem, employees, talking, randy, younger, cussed, phone, generation, opportunity, person, struggle, hard, world, understand

Episode 16 - Barb Waala - Following Dreams

What an amazing conversation with Barb Waala! Barb is a Coach who provides strategic support and accountability to help those clarify, pursue, and achieve their life and business goals. Those in HR and Staffing often take for granted how hard it truly can be to figure out, what you want to be when you grow up and then how to pursue those dreams. Barb found her passion for helping those looking for guidance and support.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Barb Waala is an entrepreneur, wife, mom and grandma, who has made a career out of helping others with their careers. After a career in corporate HR, she decided to turn her helping into a business starting part time, January 2019. And then leaving her corporate position. And starting full time, September of 2019. She has learned more in the last three years than she did in the 30 years prior.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:38
Barb, I am so excited to have you on today. Thank you for joining me.
 
Barb Waala  01:42
I am so happy to be here.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:45
So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself.
 
Barb Waala  01:48
Okay. I always love starting with us. I am a mom. I'm a grandma, which I'm going to put like I should have said that first because that seems higher priority right now. He's nine months old. I have been married to the same man for 35 years, which I see is a great accomplishment. I have been in HR for years and years was corporate HR manager. And three years ago, almost to the day, I decided to open my own business and use all of the knowledge that I had learned over the years to help people trying to find a job. How, you know, why can't I get the interview? Why isn't anyone looking at my resume? So that is my joy to try to help people figure that out and and find their career find their home? That's awesome. So
 
Leighann Lovely  02:40
I have a couple of things to congratulate you on first being married to the same individual for you said 35 years.
 
Barb Waala  02:48
Yeah, I'd like to tell everyone I was 14. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:51
Okay. As long as you say he was 14, too, because if you say he was older, then it gets weird. But yes.
 
Barb Waala  02:59
That is true. I was only 21. But you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  03:03
you're still a baby at 21. You know, you get to an age where you realize 21 You're still a baby?
 
Barb Waala  03:07
Oh, my goodness. Yes.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:10
Well congratulate congratulations on that. Because that is that. It's unfortunate, but it is a rarity to have been with the same and be married for 35 years. So congratulations on that. Congratulations for being a grandma to a nine month old. Is that your first grandchild? Yes.
 
Barb Waala  03:31
Okay, you know, because I'm so over the top. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:35
Well, that's amazing. Congratulations on that. So do you do you have one child? You know, how are you a mother too? How many?
 
Barb Waala  03:44
Hey, see, look, oh, I forgot about my children once I had a grandchild. So we were just blessed with two. So we have our daughter who is the oldest and she is the one that gave us baby Theo, while she and her husband, and then have a son who actually just got married. It'll be three weeks. So he and his new bride. Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:06
Wow. So congratulations on having another child basically entering into the families, you've got a lot to celebrate. Wow. And then another Congratulations on making it three years as a business owner and you know, entrepreneurs. So you've got a lot of stuff going a lot of a lot of celebration.
 
Barb Waala  04:27
Yeah, I feel very, very fortunate. Because when I used to work with financial representatives and hire them for their careers, I would always tell them that three years was the magic Mark, if you could make it three years because they were building their businesses, their book of business, whatever it was, you're good, you're golden, you're good to go. So I have to remind myself that I'm good now. Right? I'm good to go.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:49
Right. And you know, I'm training a new employee right now and I keep reminding her that you know, it's in the beginning it's going to be and again, this is in my profession. In all this, you know, this is my podcast, my side hustle. But in my professional career, I always have to remind her that it's going to be tough it's going to be, you're going to have really bad days you're going to but if you can make it through until you have that first really awesome win, and you feel that, especially in the staffing industry, it gets to be those heavy days where you like, oh my gosh, like, I just can't make anything work sometimes. But you're right for the financial industry? I would not, I wouldn't make it in that. No. I don't know how I've made it in the HR industry, though.
 
Barb Waala  05:41
Right? See, I HR is not what I planned for my life, but it's where I landed. And now I totally can't imagine myself doing anything else. Um, but yeah, that was not, you know, when I was 16 1718, trying to figure out what to go to school for HR was not on the list at all?
 
Leighann Lovely  06:00
Nope. No, I was what I was going to be an accountant than I was going to be a computer programmer. And I never and I figured after I made it through 2008. I was in it for life.
 
Barb Waala  06:14
Right? Oh, and the thing was, I didn't even know how bad it was, like, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't have a lot to compare it to. But yeah, you're right, you make it through that and but going through 2021. And currently, recruiting and hiring people, is has been interesting as well. So because I still do that not only do I help individuals, one on one, I've been fortunate enough to be able to continue to have contracts with small employers. So I still get to look at resumes, which I know that helps me with my one on one coaching. But boy, it's tough to find good employees right now.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:55
So let's, let's talk about that. Okay. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, your, the one on one coaching that you do, but you your business is is BW, executive coach LLC. And tell me a little bit about, you know, what you do and how you help individuals.
 
Barb Waala  07:21
So I have two sides to the business. So I tend to call myself a career journey coach, because I do help people professionally. So I have three clients that I work with that I helped fill roles that they have, I do all their recruiting for them from sourcing candidates to interviewing them, you know, in that whole gamut, which is what I've done for years. But then I also, which will, I will say this is my favorite part, I get to do the one on one coaching. And I always start the one on one coaching. And I know people don't like the assessments and the tools and all those things. But I start with those. Normally, we don't talk a lot about them during the one on one coaching, oh, email a little bit about him. But I always want to use them one on one coaching for like literally talking about what it is that they want to do. Make sure that they're following what they really want to be doing. What I have been finding is that I have had three younger gentlemen in a row, that find themselves in a transition where they don't like what they're doing, and they want to do something else. And when it comes down to it, they are doing what their family wants them to be doing. They are doing, like one of the gentlemen he's into photography and videography, and his parents, accountants, teachers. That's what they wanted him to do. So master's degree, worked in a law office miserable, just miserable. So I just helped, you know, get some clarity around what they feel like their purposes and then work with them on that. And if that involves redoing your resume and helping you on LinkedIn, and networking and interviewing, if you don't have the interviewing skills than than that as well, but the one on one coaching ends up being confidence building is what I normally find. And I, I just really, really enjoy it because I help people see the things that are already there that are already in them. And they know that it's in there, but they just haven't used it for so long or just are afraid to use it because that that old place is comfortable. So
 
Leighann Lovely  09:41
Right. And you know, it's it's so natural for somebody who has spent a career in recruiting and retention and employee relations to fall into that or not, I shouldn't say fall because it's not like you can just fall in and be perfect. It's a lot of work but you You know, become an entrepreneur, like yourself in coaching individuals. So AKA, fall into the coaching. Like, I'm not trying to belittle that, and make it sound like it's easy. But um, but to end up in, you know, on the path that you're in, because, you know, I get those all the time, somebody will come to me and say, you know, I have a niece or a nephew who don't know, or I have a son or a daughter who don't know what they want to be when they grow up, will you talk to them? And I'm like, sure, I absolutely can talk to him, I can talk to him about what they've done in the past, I can talk to them about where they see themselves in the future. But in order for you, that's not how I'm paid. You know, I can do it as a courtesy to people in my network, friends of mine. But there's only so much that I can do if I'm not actually spending a lot of time with this individual. I couldn't lay out the way the world is the way the world works, and, but for somebody to finally really get there on what they want to be when they grow up, you have to you got to figure out what, you know, what's wrong with what they're doing now? What do they like? And what they don't like? Where do they see themselves? And where do they see themselves in five years? Where do they not see themselves? You know, all of those all the ins and outs of those. So, you know, your your progression, your path that you have found yourself on is? I think it's it's a very natural, it makes sense as to how you how you've ended up where you are now, it's, and again, I'm not minimizing it is not for the faint of heart. Entrepreneurship is not easy. I work for another business. I am not, you know, I love to talk to entrepreneurs and dream about one day maybe doing that. But so you had made a comment about, you know, obviously, with the pandemic, the onset of the pandemic, it's been tough, there's been changes. And with that, we have seen individuals more than ever decide, I don't want to be a lawyer, or I don't want to be an accountant, or I don't want to do what mommy and daddy always envisioned me doing. I want to do what I want to do. Do you think that a lot more people are finally deciding that because they've either had the time to sit around and realize I'm not happy? Or because it's just the shift that the world? You know, it's just what is happening in the world?
 
Barb Waala  12:42
Yeah, well, I think that unfortunately, all of us had like a little smack in the face of people were dying. And if this happens to me, is this. What I'm doing right now, does this matter? Does this matter to my family? Does this am I making an impact? You know, in my community, or in people just, yeah, they're just seeing things differently. And it's, that's been fantastic, I think, because people are being more intentional. And I love that, I want you to be more intentional. Think of how many hours you spend, you know, in your career, in your work day, do something that you love to be doing, because that's a horrible situation to be in, because I've been there where you're in a toxic work environment and the world around you isn't great. And let's just take a step back and see what I can do to make myself happier, make my family happier, you know, so? Yeah, it's been a lot of that and, and what you spoke up with the helping the niece and nephew, and can you help me, that is exactly how I got into this. You like set up? Because, you know, when someone's like, Can you just help me with my resume? And I did it for years. And then I started just charging a little bit. And then I was like, You know what, I think this needs to be my career. So.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:08
Right. And because of the because of the position that you held because of correct, because the respect that people had for you in your network, you found people more and more people are coming to Hey, yeah, and again, you, like me are the kind of person that's if, hey, I'll extend an olive branch, but there's only so far that you can meet. There's only so far I can take that where I go, Okay, well, this isn't for me revenue generating unless you want me to find you a job through my you know, company, you know. Now there have been times where I've said, I am more than willing to be your mentor. But you have to take the initiative, the young generation, however, they don't take the initiative. I have started to realize that I have said to multi Well, people, if you would like to regularly call me as you're working through this, call me. They never call back.
 
Barb Waala  15:07
No, they don't. Why would they Tech with? Yeah, would they text you? They don't want to call big fear.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:15
But even even the text message, you know, I'll have a an hour long conversation with somebody go through their resume, talk to them about what they said, Hey, do you have any other questions? I'm always available to talk to you. Do you think that? Why do you think that is in the younger? If, in my younger days, somebody would have offered that to me? I would have been all over that.
 
Barb Waala  15:40
Yeah. I. So I'm, I'm not a boomer. I'm very close to being a boomer, but I'm not there. So I'm the Gen X. I don't understand the disease, that all Millennials I can understand. So like the younger millennials, I just had this conversation with one of our friends. And I said, they were just asking about the market. And if you look at the numbers, two to 3 million people took early retirement with COVID. And we knew that that was going to happen a little bit later, though, years down the line, because you could look at the boomers and you were like, how are we ever going to replace the works force with what we're going to lose? Well, it happened earlier. And now we're still down a million. And people are like, what's going to happen where, and I think to myself, we didn't birth enough babies to just have, you know, cover it, right. So that's just, that's just the fact of life. And and this new generation where they want to be on YouTube making money or influencers, or they sell a product, or whatever it is, and they don't want to go to work to, you know, they don't want to go into a retail store. I mean, I think back to when I first did get married at 21. And I worked full time at a bank and part time at a retail store. And I just can't imagine, and I know that's I don't want to make a blanket statement ever. Because there are people out there young people who do want to go to college and have that, you know, nine to five job with flexibility, potentially working from home, because people see you know how good that is. I don't know about the returning calls. Or, you know, when I'm interviewing someone, and I think they're such a great candidate. And they're 20. And one of the companies I work for, he's a distributor, so I need truck drivers and merchandisers and things like that. And these are great jobs for someone who is just starting out, and they don't want to go to tech school or to college. And I think I have this great conversation. And they don't show up for the face to face interview, or they don't. And that just didn't happen. 20 years ago, when I was recruiting, it just did not. And somewhere we failed to teach. These young people just come and respect. It is just really how how do you not show someone respect someone like you who took an hour to talk with them? And yes, I will do all these things. And then you hear nothing? Yeah, so it's I wish I could figure it out. Because I think if I could figure it out, I'd make a lot of money. Because it's the question everybody's asking me. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  18:47
Well, and I, you know, there was a time that the only way that you could communicate with somebody was through a phone that was hanging on the wall. And I'm old enough to remember that. You know, the generation that exists now, they never experienced that unless their grandparents still have a phone hanging on the wall. And even the majority of grandparents do not have phones hanging I pretty sure that no, I mean, even my grandma and my grandpa, Pa eliminated phones, they no longer had a house line. They even they even then went to cell phones. So I'm quite certain that the younger generation do not remember a phone hanging on the wall. But there was a time that that was the only way to communicate quickly or write a letter. And you know, I their email was not a quick way because you still have to go home and then have your phone dial up.
 
Barb Waala  19:54
All that noise just as you're saying and I'm like, I can hear it in my head.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:00
Right, right? And then and then get access to your email. So you weren't actively and I didn't have my first cell phone until I was 18. And you weren't text messaging, because you know, you had to hit, you know, the 123 button like three or four times to get, you know.
 
Barb Waala  20:27
And you couldn't afford it because you had limited data.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:31
Correct. I mean, it was like cap your data, like, I text like, five, or what I had, like 30 text messages a month or something. And then if I went over, so there was, I don't know that it was respect, it was it was more like, well, I have to go here to talk to this person, or I need to call them and tell them. And so it was more of a ingrained. Like this is the way that the world communicates. Now we have a generation that's coming up, and the way that they have learned to communicate is through. Hey, how are you doing?
 
Leighann Lovely  21:09
Good? Well, okay, good. What do you mean? What do you what does that mean? You're, you're, you're good. Like, you're anything else you want to you want to write and you have collaborates? Right, and you have, and I'm guilty of this, I'm sitting in my lower level, my husband's on the upper level, and I'll text him and be like, hey, what do you wanna do for dinner? I am guilty of that. Okay, it's sometimes I don't feel like getting up and running upstairs and having a discussion. But you have people sitting in the same room texting each other. And it's like, okay, wait, this is not a form of communication in my household, there is no technology at the dinner table. You know, so we have, as a society, lost the human, I guess, that human side of communication. And a generation has come up living in technology in a way that is a little different for me, for you, for anybody who's of the generation that grew up with dial up and phones hanging on a wall. So I guess maybe along with that, some of the respect and some of the etiquette. And speaking of etiquette, I read a book on etiquette growing up, when you get a president, you write a thank you note? Yes. That's, I'm quite certain that that is just not the way that these younger generations thing. And you can't criticize if they've never been taught. Right. And that's the difficult thing for, for people in our position, right.
 
Barb Waala  22:56
And, that's why I said, I feel like we failed them. And I said it that way, because how did you learn the etiquette and to write the thank you so much. You know, like my mom, it was, ironically, my son in law's mom, when the her kids were little, they had to write thank yous before they can play with the gift. So she would like they get their birthday presents, they would be lined up, and then they had to write a thank you. And if they wrote that, thank you, they could have that gift. So of course, my son in law at the time, he would write thank you for that one gift, and then he played with it for a while. That'd be like, Okay, I'm bored. I think I need to read a thank you for the next one. Right. So I can have that. But you know, what, who who did that? It was you know, so that's why somewhere along the line, that respect of someone has done something for you, you need to, you know, show them the respect and and then I don't know, it's, yeah, right. Are they getting? Are they getting unemployment? Are they still living at home and their parents aren't making them pay for things? I don't know. Because I would have at at 2021 I would have needed to have money to pay for things. So.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:14
And that's another thing is that there was no free ride. And if at all, I mean, starting from the day that I could go to work. And I started working when I was like, I don't know, like 12 Maybe, yeah, about 12 I was mowing three lawns. I was getting a paycheck, not a paycheck, you know, cash, my dad would take that money from me, he would put half of it in my bank account, which I did not have access to. And he would give me the other half and I could spend that money or I could save that money. Then then as I got older, I would get a paycheck from you know, when I turned 15 or whatever the age is 16 when you can actually work and I would be required to put half of that in my bank. could count, and I could have the other half. And I got a job as soon as I could get a job. I mean, there was no, oh, you don't have to work until you go to college or you don't have to work through college, I'll pay for everything. Where's the workout sick? Right? Where's the responsibility? And I will tell you that when I look at resumes, of people who have never worked a day in their life until they graduated with a degree I go, Wait, what was? What do you mean? You've never, you've never worked? Not one job? How am I going to pitch you with a degree, but you've never walked into an office environment and worked a day in your life? Yeah. I mean, again, this is not their fault. How do we blame that person? If that's the way they were raised? Right. And this is the generation that we are raising. So it's an interesting conundrum. We've gone on a tangent. So let's go back to you. Let's talk about your let's talk about your coaching. So tell me about some of the individuals, you know, what did they come to you with? What are they looking for? Help with? You know, you kind of talked about one individual? How do you help them find their path?
 
Barb Waala  26:24
Yeah. So just continue with that gentleman. The, the one that worked in the lawyer's office for so long, so his, he's extremely creative. So yeah, he has his master's degree, and he can be very organized, but he loves to do photography, he paints, like, you know, beautiful paintings and does drone footage. So he does the videography, and just very creative, which is the total opposite of sitting in a lawyer's office, you know, doing work together, putting, putting, you know, doing paralegal work, doing just a host of things. So anyway, I worked with him for months for him just to see that what he is passionate about, he can make money doing. So I've been fortunate enough to have the networking group that I do, so I could set him up with someone who has her own art studio, and how did she, how did she take those paintings that she had? And how is she making a living, and someone who does videography, and now he actually has his own studio, and he does videos for entrepreneurs and different things like that. But it started out different and how, you know, how did that go, and he does drone things in different. So I can't speak to it, I can't tell you how to because no one would want to purchase anything that I paint. But um, I, you know, have had the opportunity to meet these people so I can connect them. And, you know, slowly he was getting into his stuff is getting into art galleries, and he's setting stuff up at festivals. And somebody asked for something and realized, it's just little bits, and he's making money to does he maybe need to go get a part time job to help, you know, to have a little bit of a cushion, probably. But choose where you want to have that part time job. So is that part time job in the studio, you know, making enough so that you can make your mortgage payments and all the things because I never want someone to be foolish. Unfortunately, the job that he had, I wouldn't say he was terminated. They they did a big change. And he knew it was time to go. So he kind of left before he was it was a host of different things. But so it just gave him the opportunity to like either, are you going to go back into it just so that you're getting the paycheck? Or are you going to start to do some of these things that are giving you joy? You know, so? So yeah, so he's probably going to have to do something. So that was that instance. And then I've had just recently, a young lady who was positive she was going to have to leave the company that she was at because she was managing people and hiring people in to do her job while she managed them, you know, because she was going up a level and hiring them in at a higher pay than she was making and managing them and then managing them. I just wish you guys could see Leanne space right now. But yeah, so she was like, I'm going to have to quit so we started down that path a little bit. But then in reality, she absolutely loves where she worked. She loved the people that she worked with. There was like a stockholders and board meetings and different things and I'm like, did you bring this to The committee did you. So she did all that. And she got a fantastic raise. She's living her best life. She's just beside herself, because she's so it totally took a different turn. Yeah. And
 
Leighann Lovely  30:12
You know, I've heard those stories before where all of a sudden management goes, Wait, I'm sorry. You're not making this? And the person goes, Well, yeah. And they go, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Well, we'll just increase your pay. Yeah. Well, sometimes management doesn't really, especially when you are when you are in like an HR type role, because HR managers that stuff. And they don't, they don't realize like, Oh, we're severely under paying the person who's managing all of the levels of pay. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's embarrassing.
 
Barb Waala  30:56
Right? Well, and when she brought it to their attention, and she said, I can't, I can't continue to do to do this. And I, she could just quit, because she was fortunate enough to have a spouse who, you know, they could do that not everybody can do that. Right. But she, she was like, I very much enjoy what I'm doing. I can make 30,000 more doing what I'm doing, if I just go so I could quit and go someplace else. Right? And then I could come back, and you would hire me for the pay that I want. So why would you you know? So yeah, so it turned out that she was able to stay, that doesn't always happen. You know, I have two other people that I'm working with, and they both want to leave where they are in the company knows that they want to leave. So really, it's just, they haven't done any interviewing and not real good at networking. Ironically, they were like, both of them separately. You know, I'm an introvert, I'm really not good at networking. And I said, Okay, well, you need to stop thinking that because I'm an introvert. And I love networking, because it's one on one conversations, that's the thing. Conversation, you have to stop thinking of it as networking is opposed to relationship building, I want to build this relationship with this person. And, you know, I was taught early on that when you're talking with someone, find out what you can do for them. And then the conversation always goes, and then they'll say, Well, what can I do for you, instead of you going into it, like, I'm coming out with five names so that I can, you know, get, I can get coaching clients, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that I just never go into things like that.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:42
You know, and it's funny, it's funny that you say that, because that's what the pressure that bosses that didn't do networking used to say, Okay, you're gonna go to this networking meeting, and you're gonna go in there, and you're gonna bring back five leads. And that's how they would set up these people who had never networked before. So you had these, these people who would walk in like a bull in a china shop and be like, Okay, I'm gonna get five sales from this, and they'd walk around the room and just be like, Hi, I'm LeighAnn lovely, and I have stuffing services to sell, I really need you to buy my stuffing service. And, and everybody be like, run away from that girl she's trying to sell. Right? Right. away. Right, right. And then. And when I first started going to networking meetings long, long, long ago, that was how I thought you were supposed to go into a networking meeting. Nobody told me like, here's how you network. And then when someone excuse me, when somebody finally said, like, no, no, no, stop doing what you're doing. The light bulb went off, and I went, Oh, like, I can just come here and be like myself and just talk with people and build relationships and, and maybe make a friend here and there and pass leanza and connect people and like, it doesn't have to be this horrifying, horrifying thing that I'm doing. They're like, yeah, like, Oh, that makes it so much easier.
 
Barb Waala  34:19
Yeah, it's like a cocktail party. Right? You can just go you know, have a conversation with someone. Right? Yeah, much easier.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:26
Right. But there are there. There's people out there that, you know, especially especially managers, who are managing a team, and they don't know what networking, and I've seen this happen, they don't understand the idea of networking. So they're like, go to this networking meeting and bring back five leads. And I just, I just, you know, again, I've seen it happen and I just kind of shake my head like, oh, that's gonna be disastrous. This person's gonna this person He's gonna burn out really quick. And yeah, hate networking really fast.
 
Barb Waala  35:04
Yeah. And I worked with a gentleman who still owns the company, and he's still, he's in his 70s. So, um, he didn't understand networking at all, he firmly believed that if any of his employees were going to a networking event, it was because they were trying to get a job. Oh, he did, he did not allow us like to belong to different groups where we could go on our lunch hours or do different things, you know, like that. It was very, he's a little, he's, he's a little bit of a control freak. What I am going to say about him, though, as I'm talking about this, and thinking back to the conversation with the texting people in the same room, at the corporate office, we were not allowed to email each other.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:55
That's nice.
 
Barb Waala  35:56
We had to get up and walk to that person and talk to them. When I first started working for him that was so foreign to me, because the other office that I had been in, I could be sitting in one office and the other person could be across the hall, and I would send them an email, you know. But yeah, it wasn't allowed, you weren't allowed to email the people? And can I tell you, some of the places some of the corporate places that I've helped, or small businesses that I've helped the miscommunication between an email when everyone's in the same office, and then and I would see it, because I'd be copied on it, and I'm like, get off your butt and go talk to the person. Because this whole employee culture thing is not working, when you have 25 people in the office, and you guys are emailing each other. So I am going to give him credit for that one thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:52
You know here's what I hate. And I'm guilty of this. Occasionally. You email somebody in the office, then you stand up and walk over to them and say, I just emailed you. Did you read it?
 
Barb Waala  37:11
What do you think of my email?
 
Leighann Lovely  37:15
I used to be guilty of that all the time. And I remember one of my bosses finally saying, Yes, I was sitting around waiting for you to email me so I could read it immediately. And then I kind of went, Oh, shifts. Yep. Yep. Oops. Okay. Gotcha. I'm gonna go back to my desk now. Yeah, um, yeah, I don't do that anymore. But yes, if you are working in the same office, like unless it's you're forwarding an email, or you're just stand up and go over and say, Hey, do you have give, like two minutes? I just have to go over something with you. Yes, like, what, why are we? But here, here's another funny one. I, I have two offices away from my boss. And yesterday, I'm sitting in my office, and I look at my phone and my boss is calling me. And I pick it up. And he goes, I said, Hello. And he goes, Oh, you're in the office, aren't you? I said, Yep. Oh, two doors. So, you know, there are times.
 
Barb Waala  38:25
Well these days, you never know if someone's gonna be in their office or not. Right. He was hearing the echo, echo,
 
Leighann Lovely  38:31
echo. And then he's like, Well, now I'm on the phone. So I'm just gonna continue to stay in my seat and talk to you, but I could hear him through the phone and my door. So anyway, okay, sorry. I just thought I would throw that in there. But yeah, communication. I am my I remember, you know, there were days where I was on the phone constantly. I mean, I had a phone glued to my ear. You know, I used to do phone interviews, right? And then my brother would call me and I'd be like, hey, like, I love you. But can we not? Like yeah, let's not talk on the phone. Let's let's schedule a time to do lunch, and be in person. Like, I just, I am 100% an in person, person. So obviously, you know, this whole COVID thing like drove me crazy. However, with the onset of COVID came technology that changed all of our lives. It existed it just wasn't used as much, right? That's zoom teams and all of these things where you don't have to hold the phone up to your like, you and I are sitting here zoom. Having a conversation looking at each other in the face and being able to communicate in a way that is still got some human ness to it because you can see facial expressions. So how did that I mean, did that well, first of all, let me back up. You started your three years ago, we established that, which I mean, that was in like, what? Right before? Yeah, it was great. Yeah.
 
Barb Waala  40:11
Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:14
And you were still working part time. When you started your business? Is that correct? or No?
 
Barb Waala  40:20
No, when I actually started it, where I was actually charging people, January of 2019. Okay. And September 29 2019, not that I represented for any reason, was my last corporate by. So yeah, I had a good six month run of having a majority of one on one clients. And then everything kind of hit the fan. And, you know, it was hard, because it was like, it wasn't gonna feel sorry for my self, because there were so many things worse going on. And but it did, I was able to get the corporate contracts, or the small business ones, where people still needed to hire people, because they, they were still all working, which was fantastic. And then, once people understood their transition of maybe they're not going to have their job anymore, or they didn't like their job. Probably took a good year, before my one on one picked up to where I was comfortable. Like I was having, you know, a couple here and a couple there. But yeah, because people were just like, they stayed where they were, they weren't going to look for anything, because nobody knew what was going to happen. Right? Like, am I still going to have a job? Am I not going to have a job? You know, what's, what's going to happen? And I think, a lot in a lot of businesses. Not a lot, but businesses did close. So, you know, that's understandable. And actually, I'm seeing some businesses are closing now. And it's still the effective COVID. So Right. But fortunately, for those people who want to continue working and not retire, there's plenty of jobs. Right? So
 
Leighann Lovely  42:11
Oh, yeah, there's gonna be plenty of jobs for the years to come because of what you what you mentioned earlier, which was what the 3 million of retirees but I think that this statistically speaking, they they determined that over 5 million people left the job markets during and I'm sure there still are. So that number is probably even higher now. But over 5 million people dropped out of the job market. And I'm sure that some of that accounts for deaths. But some people decided not to go back to work. retirements, early retirements, a lot of women at that time, decided not to go back to work because of the state of the school systems and not knowing what they were going to do. And all of you know, I'm sure that some women now are. But women and women of minorities were the highest impacted in in all of that. So, I mean, there's going to be a lot of vacancies for AI, in my personal opinion for years to come that Oh, yeah. Companies will continue to hire and or try to hire for. So
 
Barb Waala  43:32
Yeah. And people. Back in the day, when I was looking at a resume and you weren't staying somewhere for two to three years, and you were hopping around. I really dismissed the resumes. We can't anymore. People are moving around. And and you know, I have older people who and by older I mean 50s 60s, who owned these companies, and they're like, oh, they they skip around too much. And I'm like, it doesn't matter anymore. The hard part is when you bring somebody into your business, there's always a cost. I mean, there's the cost of the interviewing and the hiring, but it's the training once they get there. And all of those things and we no one wants to invest that time in you and then have you leave in six months. But these employees are like this, I can go down the road and I can get $1 more so then they just leave and they just don't care
 
Leighann Lovely  44:29
Companies don't understand that they have to it is now on them. It is now their responsibility to retain that employee. And they have to they have to change with the times. If we don't have a we don't have a you know, people say I have a hiring problem. No, no, no you don't. If you are interviewing people, and you are seeing traffic, especially if you're working with a staffing agency or your Working with a consultant, independent person who's helping you and they're finding people for you. And you are saying, you know, I have a hiring problem, you know, people come in, they work for me for four months, and then they go away, you don't have a hiring problem, you have a culture or retention problem. And retention problem directly means that you have a culture problem. Companies don't realize that if they are not retaining employees, that has nothing to do with a hiring problem, and has that's related to, and companies constantly are saying to me, Well, you know, we just can't pay more. So we can't keep people. No, no, nope, no, sorry. But employees do not leave jobs. Majority of employees do not leave jobs for money, employees only start looking for new jobs, if they are unhappy for some other reason in their current job. Right. And I have heard more and more benefits is, you know, a driver, I talked to a lot of, or a lot of employees that that, hey, my benefits are just too expensive. But again, people don't start to you know, they don't open up the hood, and start looking, you know, into the all of this stuff, is they are extremely happy. It's just they don't know, people will make sure Yeah, you don't you don't you don't open up the hood and start poking around at your engine. If your car is running perfectly great. You only open that hood. If there's, you know, if it's making noise, right, then that's just not right. And then you start looking at how much am I paying for benefits? How much am I getting paid? How much vacation time do I have? And then, you know, if you ask them, Why are you leaving? Well, you don't? That job is gonna pay me more. But it's on the company's responsibility to say why did you originally start thinking about looking? Yeah. And how many companies do you know nowadays that do an exit interview?
 
Barb Waala  47:13
Oh, we, the last company that I was at, we weren't allowed to do exit interviews correct. Because he said, I don't care what they have to say, anyway. They're disgruntled, they don't want to be here. But I have the story of one of my friends who they always got a bonus every year, and the end of 2021. They didn't get a bonus. And then at the beginning of 2022, they were all asked to refer people to come work there. And that the people that they were referring, they should let them know that there was a hiring bonus. They weren't giving the employee who worked there. But they were going to give the new people that they were hiring. Not only were they going to start them at more, but they were gonna give them a hiring bonus. So guess what? She's not there anymore. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  48:05
That's a kick in the teeth. And she had been there for 12 years. That's a big FU I don't care about you.
 
Barb Waala  48:12
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're right, when these when these employers are so upset, because their employees are not happy. You know, and they're leaving, they need to look at themselves. And you want to have as many positions to fill. If you are treating the people that you have well, because guess what happens when you have employees that you've had for a long period of time, they know more about the company than just their job, they always do. And you get faster at your job over time. It just happens because you know better and you can always take on more responsibilities. So pay them well, right. And then they don't mind the extra responsibilities. Right? So that's my TED Talk. Yep. Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  48:58
I completely cheese. Some of the things that companies do, I am flabbergasted. My boss, my boss once said to me, he said, and this is a great learning experience is a great, this is something that any great boss knows, he says, You always spend the most time with the best employees. He says you don't you don't go and spend all your time with the employees that are struggling. And he goes obviously you spend time with them to coach them and but you always make a point to dedicate the most time to those who are the most important because they need to know that they are important to you need to let them know like you are important to me. And so often those people who are excelling at the company are forgotten about because their manager goes well they don't need my help anymore. And then all of a sudden that An employee that's excelling feels like well cut, you know, my manager never really talks to me never rarely. And they they become forgotten about. Well, and and eventually, they're so forgotten about because everybody's like, Oh, he doesn't he doesn't need us anymore. That that gives them time to become unhappy and eventually leave. Yeah, if you have an awesome employee that's doing a great job, and you know, just rockin it, you should be checking in on that employee and making sure that if do you need anything from me? Is there anything I can do to help you be more successful? Or is there anything that you need? You know, is there anything I'm doing? That's pissing you off? Like? That should be like, number one, you want to retain the best employee? That's fine. I just don't understand why more managers don't get that.
 
Barb Waala  50:56
I don't know. And when you when you sit in on a meeting, when I used to sit on the meetings, you know, corporate they were always talking about let's look at our numbers, who's in the pipeline, what candidates do we have blah, blah, blah? Why do we never talk about our current employees? What is this one doing? Oh, look at, you know, she just brought us this great thing, how can we, you know, show her that we appreciate what she's doing? When is the last time she's had a review? Who, because I'm gonna tell you one of the companies asked me to do an employee engagement surveys, and when I started them, because I always do those face to face. I cannot get over how long some of the people had been working there, they had not had a review. And they hadn't had a raise. And I'm like, why are you still here? I didn't say that out loud. But a lot of the reason they were still still there was because they liked everyone that they worked with. And it was close to home. So you know, those were big things. But those employee engagement surveys, I personally don't recommend sending them out like a Survey Monkey or something. I like doing them face to face, because you get the facial expressions, you can find out, they're scared to tell you something, because they think you're gonna go back and tell the boss and all those different things. That's probably one of my favorite things to do for companies is the employee engagement surveys. But anyway, yes, appreciate your employees, people appreciate what you have, you know?
 
Leighann Lovely  52:25
Well, Bob, you are a wealth of knowledge. And I could continue to talk to you for the next two hours. I feel like I've been on a tangent this entire time. Yeah, HR. Let's see, I love to HR
 
Barb Waala  52:44
The HR tangents.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:46
So I want to get to the question of the season. Yes. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Barb Waala  53:02
That is a good question. I'll start by saying I'm always a firm believer that the path that you're on, there's a reason that all those things happened because it, you know, helps and gives you the knowledge for for where you are right now. But if I had to go back, I would probably tell myself as a young mom, that it was okay, that I was only working three days a week, you know, 18 hours a week, whatever it was, at that time, because my husband worked second shift. So I could, it afforded me the ability to actually be an office manager work for an accountant, you know, do the different things that I did, when my kids were little. And it was okay that I didn't work full time. It it was perfectly okay that I didn't work full time. That was the choice that I made. And I would just because I was I was panicked back then, like if I don't work full time now. And then the kids get older, what am I going to do and what it all it all worked out? It all worked out? Well. So that was that's the thing that I would say. I so that's the end of that answer. And then I'm gonna just tell you that I had such an extra. I'm trying to think of the word just appreciation for those mothers that were making the hard decision to leave their careers to stay home because during COVID Because it would wreck me that somehow their job wasn't as important as their husbands. But at the end of the day with the people that I talked to it came down to who made more money. Who who was bringing in the majority of funds and who was it easier for them to leave their position Why that? You know, 95% of the time turned out to be the women, that's a whole different conversation. But though they'll be okay to, if they, you know, if they want to go back, especially in this environment, you know, having a gap in your resume is not a big thing. It never was for me. I don't know if that's because I'm a woman. So then I would see someone would have, you know, a couple years where they stayed at home. Let me tell you, when you stay at home as a mom, and you're running your house, hello, that is CEO, see, oh, you know, you want those women having having a mom who's working, best hire her. Because she knows how to coordinate all the things.
 
Leighann Lovely  55:45
Right. That is the one and I tell people that if that's what you were doing, that's you put that as a job from this day to this day, stay at home mom or CEO of household or what however you want to list that that is yeah, that's the hardest job in the world. And I used to laugh before I became a mom, about people who are oh, that's the hardest job in the world. Yeah, right. Yeah. Then I became a mom and I went holy shit, this is the hardest job in the world. Yes, like ask because you can't manage a four year old or a three year old or five years? My daughter's four right now. So I referenced four year old you can't actually manage them. I mean, in any way it doesn't. Because their brain is not actually making any sense. Like, Mom, I want a milk and then you give her milk and she goes, Mommy, I told you I want a Gatorade. Well, no, you actually did. Fine, I'll get your Gatorade. Like there is no, there is no rhyme or reason or sense when it comes to. So all of the things that you have ever learned about trying to keep things coordinated and organized, throw it all out the window. It is complete and utter chaos, and no sense of the word all of the time. And if you get in the shower, the for your husband or significant other or if you're a single mom, you might as well just drag her in the shower with you or him in the shower with you. Half the time my husband was you know, just wearing shorts in the shower. You're lucky because, hey, it is the hardest job in the world. I only have one. So yes, there are people out there right now. My, my recruiter, one of my recruiters that I work with, she's she is got five kids on vacation. Right?
 
Barb Waala  57:38
That's not vacation. That's what someone says. It's like just living somewhere else. That's just because you're not on vacation. You're right, just like doing all the things you do at home, but you're doing it in a different location.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:50
Who said there's there's vacation and I can't remember what the phrase was. vacation and a trip there's read the difference between a trip and a vacation? Yes, and the vacation or a trip is with your children and a vacation is without your children? Yes. Something like that. Yeah. Anyways, okay, so, we are like I said, at time we were Yes. Okay. Um, if someone wanted to reach out to you to learn more about your business more about your coaching services, or all of those things, how would they go about doing that?
 
Barb Waala  58:33
They can go on my website, barbwaalacoaching.com, it's easy to find. And I have a little link on there that you can click on it. And then it emails me and we can set something up. I always if you want to be a one on one client always have at least a 30 minute discovery call. We call it so then I can find out what it is that you're looking for. And you can talk to me a little bit just to make sure we're a good fit. It's it's the same thing. I tell candidates when they're recruiting, it's like this isn't all about us hiring you, you need to make sure you'd like to so. So I do that. And if it's anybody that needs help with their HR if they need to hire an HR person, I have done that many times hire you know, I'll work in their HR for a little bit and then hire my replacement and move along. Same thing. Barb Waala coach. Yeah, you can you can find me.
 
Leighann Lovely  59:27
Excellent, Barb. This has been such an amazing conversation I adore talking with you. It's just it's so much fun. So again, thank you for joining me today.
 
Barb Waala  59:39
Thank you for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  59:41
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Website – https://www.barbwaalacoaching.com/
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/barb-waala
E-mail - barbwaalacoach@gmail.com
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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Episode - 15 - Whitney Rekowski - W2 employee to Owner

Whitney Rekowski went from a W2 employee to owner, followed by her husband, and has not looked back. This is a great story of two people following their dream, not to say that they have not had bumps in the road, like many entrepreneurs. But like many Whitney joined the great resignation in 2021 and now runs a successful business offering others office space to create the perfect place to run their business.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:07
Whitney Rekowski worked a corporate marketing job for 12 years while juggling a hobby real estate investment side hustle with her partner, she finally joined the great resignation in 2021. Whitney now has her real estate license but mainly focuses on managing and simplifying their real estate portfolio. She founded Office Leasing Simplified in 2021. To help other business owners cut through the confusion of terms and potential hidden fees other companies charge. Their goal is to simplify the leasing process. So business owners can focus on their business and grow their profitability. She now manages office space primarily in Brookfield and Greenfield, Wisconsin. The transition away from her W2 job allows more time with her family, and trying to squeeze in some self care. I'm so excited to speak with my guest today because it shows both sides of the coin, business ownership and a W2 position that many of us face while trying to have our own business.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:27
Whitney, hi, it is so awesome to have you on today. Thank you for joining me.
 
Whitney Rekowski  02:32
Thanks for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:34
So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself.
 
Whitney Rekowski  02:37
So I have been in the corporate W2 world for quite some time different roles. But on the side, my partner and I have invested in real estate, working on residential fixing them up. But my husband and I now lovingly refer to me as the exponent, which he jumped into his kind of interested in music, let's just maybe add one more property. And then we jumped in looking at commercial space and lots of podcasts and videos and just books. And so now we have transitioned from more the residential B2C side of things into the B2B side of things. And we've launched our brand called Office leasing simplified, which we really try to cater to working with other business owners and entrepreneurs making the perfect space for them. Because we realized that commercial they have a lot of acronyms and phrases that the common person just doesn't know. And we want to make it easy so they can focus on their business and be profitable.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:40
That's awesome. And so you mentioned that, you know, my next question was your husband and you decided to become business owners. And now you have Office leasing, simplified. But what I find really intriguing and not that. So obviously, during 2021 interest rates were, I mean, they were awesome for that, right? They're awesome to go and buy a property. But there's also something else that's going on during the economy. A lot of businesses were remote. So I got to ask, what, what's going on at this point in your head when you're thinking, Yeah, let's buy a commercial building and lease out space was that you know, what was going through your head at that time?
 
Whitney Rekowski  04:28
So we were actually under contract to purchase our first office building in which was to close March of 2020. And then the world flipped upside down. Okay, and the building was 50% vacant and we're just like, is this a sign were we supposed to take this? You know, it's not really the move we should do because there's a lot of fear around commercial office space, and a lot of risk, you know, but a lot of reward as well. So we decided to jump on in and ironically because most people were working remote and businesses were shut down those entrepreneurs I finally had time, they finally had time to say, You know what, I've outgrown my space. You know what I need to reduce, you know, pull in my expenses. And we filled the building within a year. Partially because Al is able to renovate the spaces perfectly for the tenants, partially because of the networking. And you know, just we're working with business owners. So we've wanted to be a perfect time. So let me borrow another building in Brookfield, certainly, you know your later.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:29
Wow. And, you know, most most people will go that you're, you're crazy. But while you so it was you said 50% vacant, and you filled up every space within a year. Yep, that is that is amazing. That's absolutely amazing. Congratulations on that. And so you bought another building. So now you own two buildings, you own one, I believe from your bio in Brookfield and one in Greenfield.
 
Whitney Rekowski  05:57
We have a few other properties. So we still have a few stragglers of residential. And we have another commercial building up north, that's a single tenant. But these two office buildings have multiple tenants in them. So one is 15,000 square feet, the other ones 45,000 square feet. So pretty big buildings. But we found also by those buildings were unique that if someone is growing, they can grow within our building and don't have to necessarily change their whole address. Or they can reduce and kind of pull in their expenses. And so we're kind of unique in that size and that opportunity.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:30
That's, that's great. So you, and you mentioned you are a W two employee. So when did you take the leap from being a W two employee to then being that sole entrepreneur and saying, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk away from that, that I know I have a paycheck, I know that that money is coming in. And now is your husband still? Is he still a W2? Or are you both now 100% on the business.
 
Whitney Rekowski  06:58
So it I think 2020 burned me out. Because in reality, I was working full time, I then had to take care of our one in our three year old at home mostly by myself, because no one would help. And I was also we just closed on that commercial building. And I'm learning and I didn't give myself credit, but it was learning how to do commercial real estate. I mean, we've done it before, but there's just different. There's, it's a new job, how to market it, how to do the leases, all of these things are different than and negotiate it compared to residential. So I think that burned me out. But then later on that year, I decided to get my real estate license. And we kind of like I said, we dream big, like, my husband's not a gold person. But what if we sold all of these and just bought another one, you know, I think you'd like this, you know, B2B side of that real estate. And so in April, we bought the Brookfield building, April 2021. And then I left my w two, after I signed two good leases, I want to just to kind of prove myself that I could do it. And so I left in June of 2021. And then now al actually, it has left in May of 2022. So he's a few months out himself. And he's just told me last night, like, I didn't think I was going to be this busy. But I continue to sign new leases, and he's doing the build outs form and just general building maintenance. We definitely have buildings that the previous owners thought this would be easy. And it takes work, right. It is a new job. It was a lot of effort. And but we love it new hurdles every day, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  08:33
So you for for over a year, you were out of the W two world your husband was still a W two employee. So you had that income coming in a little bit of a, you know, security. But now you're both out and running your own business and making it work and doing the thing. That's, awesome.
 
Whitney Rekowski  08:54
We're both part of the great resignation. I didn't know that was necessarily a thing and that we were going to both jump in at the same time. But we just learned that we were spending money on having other people do the role. And in this day and age, it's very difficult to get contractors. So you know, he has the skill set, he loves swinging the hammer, you know, I couldn't get him back into joining me full time fast enough. So I'm glad that he he's made that transition.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:19
Great. So you Okay, by trade, your background is in marketing. Correct. Okay. And by trade, what is his background.
 
Whitney Rekowski  09:29
He was an electrician, he is a boiler steam fitter, he you know, all of the random like sprinkler fitter, all of the randomness that you need for commercial space, that is him. So that's why it was really amazing when we made this transition to like, This combines both of our skill sets. And so we both you know, are needed to run our business and we're allowed to stay in our lane. But now we're kind of managing each other right now. We're kind of hey, did you get that done? And it's interesting because you're used to having more are coworkers. So we continue to evolve and work through it. But it's been awesome.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:06
Right? You're holding each other accountable at your work, as well as at home, I'm assuming for now, it's not just at home, you're holding each other. Because you mentioned you have children as well, you have young children. So now you now you have to hold each other accountable for work and work life balance, and life at home. That's got to be an interesting dynamic.
 
Whitney Rekowski  10:31
One of the things I've started for the accountability side of things is, and this was while he was still working, because it wasn't a mean comment. But he's like, I don't really know what to do all day. He just kind of curious of how do you fill your days. And so what I started, because the whirlwind happens, the whirlwind of the days, the chaos, something's darts on fire somewhere. And so things just happen so I can get, you know, distracted in the whirlwind. So I started texting him every morning saying, Hey, these are the three things I'm going to tackle today. And just so he was kind of aware, and he said, hey, don't forget to do this lease or this resigning, and don't forget that. It's like, okay, but and also, I could look back and say, Oh, that's what I wanted to do today. So with him, we've kind of started the similar system, because otherwise you can easily get, you know, things that aren't focused on the business, the biggest goals for our business, and, and kind of just dabble, if that makes sense. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  11:27
Ya know, and that's, I think that in any business, you have to have somebody, either an equal or if you are managing a team, you have to have some, some way of holding each other accountable. In a non I want to, I kind of want to say non managerial way. So it's a, here's what I'm going to do today. And you're setting your own goals, right? Here's what I'm going to do today, I'm going to deliver this to you today. And it can be at any, you know, you couldn't be working in any type of job at all. But you set your own goals and tell your accountability partner your account, right. And then at the end of the day, if you haven't accomplished that the only person that you have to blame is yourself. And yes, we all have explosions happening. Trust me, you know, that I we were talking prior to even starting lists of hey, is, you know, how's your chaos happening today? i And I mentioned that, you know, I, I have a chaos free at this moment. And that's a good feeling. Because it's happening around us at any given time, all the time. But we have to have, you know, that that moment of right now, this is the the task I'm going to tackle. And that's great that you guys can you know, hold each other accountable. Or really, it's a matter of holding yourself accountable. But by speaking those words out loud. It makes all the difference.
 
Whitney Rekowski  13:04
Yep, there's I would love and I joke. Often I say I would love to have clean closets like to have them perfectly organized re everything is just perfect and beautiful. And but in reality, and now especially switching I think a lot of people realize when they were at home, they're like, Okay, even when I am home, I'm not organized, you know, even I'm forced to be in my own home, I can't do it. But for me, it's that wasn't making us money. And as a business owner, you know, we try to have just distill it down to basics is, does this make us money? Does it save us money? Does it simplify our life? And if we're at least tackling items that fall into those categories, every single day will move our business and our forward. And I think for every entrepreneurs identifying, you know, really, it's focusing on profitability, but there's a much a lot of different elements of what that means for everyone's individual business. Or for if you're working for someone else in a company, how are you going to make the company more profitable.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:58
There are a ton of things that have to be done every day. But there are only a certain amount of things that have to be done that are revenue generating tasks. And those always have to go at the top of the list. Everything else needs to be at the bottom of the list. And if you can get to those things great. But the ones that are revenue generating tasks, those are the ones that absolutely have to get checked off first. And, you know, I wish that I could say that, yeah, I'm brilliant. And I created that tagline or, but that's just a, that's just a fact. I mean, if you did everything else, all of the easy stuff first all the time. You would never ever get anywhere, right? And usually the revenue generating tasks are the ones that were like, I wish I could push that one off, because they're not always the easiest thing to do. Unless you're an absolutely love your career and that would be great. If we all 100% loved every single aspect of what we have I have to do. But the majority of the time, you know, I'm in sales, I hate the busy work, I hate the paperwork, if I could hire somebody to do just the paperwork, that would be great. But I don't make enough money to hire somebody to do just the paperwork. It's just a, it's a fact. Those are revenue generating thing, I have to write contracts, I have to you have to sit down and sign leases, I'm sure that you would much rather be in, you know, helping them lay out how they're going to design something or you know, I'm not in your brain. I don't know what your favorite aspect of things are. But, you know, there are certain things that we love, but often those are not necessarily the revenue generating tasks. So, so here's, here's a great quote, like, what do you think that the greatest challenge that you have had, since becoming an official business owner and moving completely having you and your partner move away from being the W two employees? Both of you, what do you think that that greatest challenge really has been?
 
Whitney Rekowski  16:03
Obviously, it's going to be the unknown, right? We don't necessarily, we know that we're both very employable, if are really fearful, we always could go back and get jobs. And that's, you know, not worst case scenario, but it's an option. For us. It's all of the risk that's on our shoulders, right. And I think that's with anyone who's an entrepreneur or small business owner, because, for example, you know, we went to our and we have to have good partners. So we went to our insurance agent, we said, hey, poke holes in our policy and make sure we're good to go, we're about to take this leap, we want to look good, you know, and make sure that we have everything buttoned up. And then there's construction in front of our building, they didn't divert the water correctly, and then we had a flood. And now six of our tenants have water in every single unit, and we're fooling the building. So we have nowhere we can move people. And so all of that came on to us. And then insurance didn't cover it, because the insurance agent didn't do his role. And he didn't reality, we could get stuck in the trenches and get upset that and for a while, you know, it takes a couple of weeks, and we're going to try to get tenants running as best as they can. So they can be profitable, but it's on our shoulders, and you just have to navigate, but the what we've done, we just had something similar happen again, but looking up and out and kind of having the 10 year mindset helps, right? It's like, okay, and this is the whirlwind of today. But this is just short lived. And we know we'll get through it. And we're, we're healthy, we're capable. And it just had a shift of like, this didn't happen to us, it just happened in our business, if that makes sense.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:41
Right? When you when you don't look at yourself as the victim, yeah, you take the mindset of, it's not, I'm not the victim here, I'm just, you know, part of the circumstances of, of the situation. And then you it's much easier to push through to make the next right move in order to get I guess, through the day, because I'm sure that there was hard days when that was taking place.
 
Whitney Rekowski  18:11
Well, and we take it very personally, because we want our tenants, you know, we keep it small intentionally, because we do like that relationship with and we don't want to have, you know, millions of square feet and a bunch of you know, we're not a corporation. That's why people like renting from us. But it's just, uh, you know, we're problem solvers. And every day, there's going to be problems and things that you can't predict. But instead of going to formal training on commercial real estate, we just kind of jump in, because you'll learn on the job. And that's with anything that people do, you'll figure it out. And as long as you're passionate about it, you'll overcome it. And I think that's just kind of our mindset words, everything is solvable, you just have to figure it out one way or the other.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:55
That's awesome. So now that you've been through this experience, I am assuming that you have reassessed your insurance agent and had somebody else, you know, go through and try to poke holes in that policy again, learn from your mistakes and push forward.
 
Whitney Rekowski  19:12
Exactly. And honestly, you can't insure yourself out of everything, right? It's not or, Hey, if I pay a million dollars, insurance, everything will be fine. It's just now making sure having reserves and knowing that everything we're doing we're not overwhelming our schedule. So when something does happen, we can pivot, right? Hey, you know what, this, we have our goals for the year, but we'll have to push those to q3 q4, and that's no different than any other business or personal goals. It's just having that mindset of this is acceptable, and this happens and you know, we'll get through it.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:49
So what do you foresee? You know, obviously, I think that there's no secret that everybody is looking and seeing a shift in the the world the UK To me right now, you said that you're looking at the 10 year goal, right? So what do you what do you see here in your two years, in your five years in your 10 years as far as how things are going to be, and you don't have to get specific? I'm not asking you to lay out your life. But I mean, when you look out at that, what do you what do you see?
 
Whitney Rekowski  20:23
So what's interesting enough and interview questions, especially when you're looking for a job, they always ask them, Where do you see yourself in five years? And what? What, but it's such a common question, and they always want to see, you know, what would you? Do you have a brain in your head? Are you you know, would you want to become the CEO? Do you realistic? Are you just fine, where you're at? But I don't like that question. And the reason is, anytime I look back in my life, two years ago, five years ago, I never could have predicted where I'm at, I never thought I was going to leave my w two this soon. But I never thought you know, we both would be focused on this. But we are. And so I love the quote, that is pessimists complain about the noise, when Opportunity is knocking at the door. And I love it, because it kind of encompasses what we're just gonna lean in, you know, we kind of put ideas out there, opportunities come up, and like, you know, I don't really know much about that. But hey, why not? Let's jump in. And we'll figure it out. Because we just always will. So, you know, as we transition to the commercial side, we love it. And I think that's where, for us, it's the you, where do we see ourselves, we're gonna keep mastering our capabilities, but if a new opportunity comes up, we're gonna jump on it. And we always say, We're done buying real estate, but I think we're addicted to it. Because when you find a good deal, and you know, you can make a difference and help more people. It's addicting and difficult to say no. So yeah, with that, I mean, the world, you can't control the world, you can control yourself, you control what's going on, there's always going to be new people who are successful, and no matter what economy that's going out there, and what's going on in the s&p 500 is not what's happening in the small business world, you know, it's different challenges. And so, again, it's remaining optimistic, like, we're gonna get through it, people are going to be successful, someone's going to make money, hopefully, a lot of people make money on it. And I don't know, like I said, positive mindset, I guess it's kind of our mind, where we're gonna keep leaning in. And the big shift now is to actually enjoy life, because we only get one body and one life and young kids. And so we're going to try to schedule in our time for once, because we didn't do that for the last, you know, eight years.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:47
You know, and it's something I heard actually today that you can't, you can't control what's going to happen. But you can, and you do have the ability to influence your immediate surroundings and your immediate project, you have the ability to influence it, but not control it. And that's all that you can do. And, and I completely again, I am, I am a recruiter by trade. So am I asking the question that, you know, yeah, I didn't even realize I'm asking an interview. But you know, it is, you know, people do they want to know, like, Hey, are you going to do this for the next? But you're right. It's it's one of those unknowns like today, where do I see myself in the next wall, I would see myself here. But if somebody were to come up, or if I were to win the lottery tomorrow, obviously, my entire world would probably, maybe not me, because I'm not one of those people who's like, Oh, I just want a million dollars, I'm gonna quit my job, I'd probably invest it, nothing in my life would change. But for some people, they'd win the lottery, quit their job and go on a major vacation, and then in a year from now, they'd have no money. So that you're right, that question is not necessarily a valid one, but I loved your answer. Because you are a true entrepreneur. You're the true. You know, you have the spirit of a true entrepreneur of I'm going to lean in, and I'm going to ride the roller coaster of whatever comes next. And you've got the itch of an entrepreneur, which means that, Hey, I found the passion. I found what I love doing, and you've become addicted to it. And that's awesome. I learned long ago, I tried to leave my industry. I tried to leave the staffing industry. I'm like, okay, kind of done with us. And it just kept wooing me back and wooing me back and I just can't, I'm addicted to it. I love it. There's aspects of it that there's some days I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I can do the grind anymore. But then for some reason, you you know, once you find your seat at the table, and you're like, Yep, this is the table I'm supposed to be sitting in. Sometimes it's really hard to leave it. Because you're like, yeah, these are my people, this is where I belong. I have found my circle. And then other times in life you go, No, I'm ready to, I'm ready to try a different food. I don't know if that analogy made any sense. But that's awesome. I, you know, I applaud you for digging in. And, you know, taking control of what you can control in your life and enjoying what you're doing. And finding a work life balance that that works for you and your family.
 
Whitney Rekowski  25:39
We're still getting there. I don't know if there's ever truly the balance out there, especially, you know, the saying that entrepreneurs work 80 hours a week, so they don't have to work for someone else. 40 hours a week, right? There's a lot of weeks like that. But at the same time, you know, the it fills your cup, right? Like you're saying, it fills your cup, even if you're working hard, and there's chaos, and there's busyness and you're like, Well, I don't like this part. But overall, you get that sense of satisfaction.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:05
And when I say work life balance, I don't necessarily mean that you're balancing Hey, here, I'm working. And I have this great time where I'm, I'm with my family, and I'm not thinking about, I'm talking, you know, work life balance means whatever it means to you. Doesn't I mean, for everybody, it's different. And you know, there's other people I've talked to the season, who have a completely different understanding of what that means to them. And hate. I'm not here to judge, my husband yells at me all the time, because, you know, I bury myself in my podcast, during my, when my daughter sleeping is really the only time I have she's for so. Otherwise, it's mommy, mommy, mommy. But I mean, that's, it's my happy place, right? As long as you have a happy place, and you've struck that with your husband and your kids. And there's some sense of, and I'm gonna go back to the first episode of the season, when Andy wines talked about alignments, as long as everything in your life is got some form of alignment, and is lining up where you can have the things that you want. And there's going to be weeks that you have to shove the dog in the crate and go, Okay, I'm running away from sorry, that's a reference to what we were talking about, you know, before we started this anyways.
 
Whitney Rekowski  27:29
Well, one of the things you mentioned, though, like we are, where do I see myself, I am not a fan of the goals. He doesn't like the word he doesn't like the concept of it. So I say, Okay, let's put crazy ideas out there. And then just write them down. Because I love the idea of the power of attraction, and you put it out for the universe. And it's probably just a mindset where you're now ready to receive all of these different concepts. But we just found a notebook of please six years ago, and we had something like self pay off our house within 10 years, and buy a lake house and do X, Y, and there's like three or four things. And we looked at him like, oh, my gosh, check, check, check. And when we wrote this down, I was like, Okay, who's gonna do that, like, this is all not going to happen. But we put it out there. And so our subconscious mind is extremely powerful. And without even looking at the notebook, because we're just cleaning up the base. And we're like, yeah, it happened. And so those type of big crazy ideas, I love putting them out there, and just, hey, now that we've built the work, though, you know, a life that neither one of us have to count our PTO days or our vacation days. Now we need to live it now. We need to fully take advantage of it and go on trips with our kids ourselves, you know, and just go play tennis on a Tuesday. I don't know we we need to schedule that into our lives and make it happen.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:49
And that's I'm a full believer in what you put out there that you need to put out there, what you want into the universe verse, that. And again, I think I've already said this, that when we were talking about, you know, accountability, that saying it out loud, that that makes it that makes it real, even if you were looking in a mirror and you're saying it to yourself, it needs to be spoken it written down. Because you're you're I almost feel like you're you're not trying to trick your brain but you're telling or you're conditioning your brain to say, this is what needs to happen. This is what I want. This is what I hope this is what I plan. And it's it's it's reinforcing the things that you want or that you think about in your own head. But now you're you're saying them you're throwing them out there to the universe. That's why people have one of those boards, dream boards or goal board vision boards. That's why people have vision boards because it's, you know, you you're putting it out to the universe. You're making it real you're making it you know, something that that you can physically see time And remember, now I don't have a vision board, but I definitely regularly will say, You know what I'm going to do what I'm going to accomplish on a daily basis. I'm a true believer in that kind of thing.
 
Whitney Rekowski  30:16
I have a funny story about vision boards. Now, I'm a real estate agent on the side, just for friends and family and for ourselves kind of helping them save money. And because it is my passion, navigating the chaos of real estate acquisitions. And so our team, we did vision boards, and I brought the magazines home as an analyst, you have to do one, two. And so now they're hanging up, you know, upstairs, or we see him every morning. But the placement, I put up certain things of place I wanted to travel, spend more time family game nights, one of them was Bora Bora. And I wrote why wait, just the concept of like, why wait of like, just do you take action?
 
Leighann Lovely  30:55
Well, then now we're going to
 
Whitney Rekowski  30:57
Bora Bora this fall. So it was like just because of the placement of the words like Well, that's not what I meant by it. It just fit nicely in the board. But maybe my subconscious kept seeing it. So it's booked this fall, and we're going to make it happen. So.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:11
Right, again, subconscious or not, or whatever it might be. It doesn't happen unless it's at the forefront of your mind. Right? It just doesn't like it's easy to forget things my husband mentioned, like we should book this trip. And six months later, he's like, we should book this trip. And if we don't do it, another six months goes by and I'm like, Why didn't we ever book that trip? Yep. Because we just kept forgetting. And it's, but it's the same with, you know, Hey, did you schedule our daughter's dentist appointment? Oh, no, I forgot today. And then a month goes by and I'm like, Oh, my God, she's due for a month ago, she was due for her dentist appointment. And again, I'm minimizing it a little bit, but it goes with everything. So now we have a list of like, schedule this schedule this and every day we check off. Even the little things like I need to get my car into the dealership, I need to do this. Well, why not with the big things. I want to go to Disney World.
 
Whitney Rekowski  32:16
And you need a time block that and I think that's where time blocking or having like, what are your big things, do them the first thing in the morning, the concept of like eat the frog in the morning, because that's the worst thing that's going to happen to you all day. Because the Mark Twain quote, and that's where focus on those big things, not just for your profitability of your business, but for your life too. And maybe that's where you have kind of what's the, hey, this is important, but not urgent, and it's gonna completely fall off the radar if I don't do it now
 
Leighann Lovely  32:47
And that's, and that's, you just completely hit home with me on that one. Business owners, individuals like you, brilliant when it comes to you know, you, you are a true entrepreneur, I can tell because you have that you have that drive, you have that passion, when you talk about it, when you when you are excited to leave your W two job and jump in talking about leaning in. But business owners get so wrapped up in I need to make the business work, I need to take care of my customer customers, I'm passionate about my customers, all of those key terms. Those are where all of the sudden, in a year from now, when I talk to business owners, they look back and go, Oh, crap, I forgot to take care of me. And so the number one mistake that you see in really successful business owners, or entrepreneurs, or not just business owners, but really successful employees, even w two employees is that they become wildly successful. And then two, three years goes by four years goes by, and they go, Oh my gosh, I'm so burnt out or their mental health is waning because they are taking such great care of all their clients and everybody loves them. And all of a sudden, this person drops off the face of the earth. And all their clients and their friends are going what happened I mean, this person was was burning at both ends. But that person forgot in the world when have been wildly successful, to take care of themselves, because they were so wrapped up in making sure that everybody else was happy. And you hear about it and you see it too much.
 
Whitney Rekowski  34:25
I'm definitely guilty of that, too. And I think that you know, that's why I said 2020 burnt me out you know I was working all hours the night trying to just fulfill every all of these different roles that I'm trying to juggle and I didn't even know the amount that I'd put on my shoulders. And a lot of people it says that I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. And I'm like I just do it. I don't have an option like that. There is what other options are there. And so I think that's where now I'm still terrible about you know, personal care and time and whatnot, but we're trying right it's always progress not perfection. And I think that's, you know, it's taking probably a little bit more time to get into a good groove because I don't want to burn out in this role I don't I'm trying to set those boundaries and those that, you know, the the limits, so I have time to be a person because you only get one body and one life, right? And I teach my kids that and you say it all the time, like eat healthy to your body tree do well, so you can do all the fun stuff that you want to.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:28
And I'm doing the same thing. I've given my daughter fruit and vegetables, and then I'm realizing that on lunch, I'm, you know, oh my god, I haven't eaten anything. And I'm grabbing a pizza and I'm going, what am I doing to myself? Like, yeah, I'm shoving healthy food down my daughter's throat and she's fighting me and fighting me. And I'm going well, you got to eat your carrots. It's good for your eyes. You got to eat your. And here I am grabbing pizza for lunch. And I'm like, I am not showing her. I am preaching to her. And no, no wonder she's fighting me on it so much. The whole idea of work life balance is we preach we don't show. But and I'm not blaming companies, there are a lot of companies out there that just let their employees do it. Just continue like, Oh, you want to do it? Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. And then when that employee finally says, Man, I gotta take, you know, a week or two off the the company goes, whoa, what do you mean? No, sorry, I can't give you two weeks off. Well, yeah, but I haven't I haven't really taken much time off. Yeah, but we really need you around. And that's all of the sudden become this. Now we have a new world that people are going, Nope, I'm demanding it. I need at least you know, two, three weeks vacation time, or you have companies who are going to unlimited vacation time saying, Nope. Take care of yourself. Because I don't want you around. If you're gonna burn yourself out. It's awesome.
 
Whitney Rekowski  36:55
Yep. And there's something to be said too, about like sabbaticals, because there are companies who did that I had maternity leave twice. And I was off for medical for reason, too. And you come back, and you just come back with a clear head. And it's, you know, as long as you take a long unification sustained way, where it's similar to when we're in the trenches with our business, now, you're in it, and you're just trying to turn away. And it's like, well, when you're gone for a while, it's like, oh, that stuff didn't get done, but it wasn't that important. So you just reset of what actually is important, because there's always going to be a million things to focus on any sort of business or company. And taking the vacation just helps you reset and be more productive and, and spend your time more wisely. I think that is a big shift. Now with people going to the office some days and working from home some days. And that's why for the office space, people don't want to be in their own same four walls anymore. They like to be in their home and have the flexibility, but they don't, they want to go and communicate with other people and talk to someone down the hall and, and have that dynamic because we are social creatures, that's just how we are and maybe you limit it a little bit, maybe you don't have to do it every day. But just be also collaborate and have ideas. So a lot of good, you know, original ideas and new ideas or just from casual conversations.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:14
So tell me a little bit about that kind of let's let's circle back to your office space, I've had the opportunity to have a tour of it. And it's you have a well have the one in Brookfield it's a beautiful space. And you've showed me some of the updated spaces that you've just recently, you know, done for, it's an absolute beautiful space, and then you also have a very large conference room. Tell me a little bit about you know, if somebody was looking for space, you know, how you're able to kind of pivot to remodeling that for them or tell me a little bit about that.
 
Whitney Rekowski  38:53
Yep, so some tenants come in and you know, they know I want individual offices so people to be able to work in it. But conference rooms, you know, we have a lot of lawyers, insurance doctors in our building. And they'll come and say, Hey, I need a conference room this size can be tear out this wall or build this here. Or if they wanted a little more modern and having more of the glass walls that can easily be put in. We even have a podcast studio in our building. And you know, just everything is possible. And Ella is fantastic at making it happen. And sometimes, you know, I say hey, put your hopes and dreams out there. Let's see how much it would cost and then you know, you can pay for upfront or we can build into your lease. But a lot of times it's an amazing location right across from Brookfield Square Mall. So easy access to the freeway and you know Moreland and blue lounge area. And we're a little bit different. We're not the building that has fountains in the lobby. We are not ones that are going to you know, because they're expensive. You know, we're focusing on other business owners who say hey, I need a space that is you know, Easy for my customers to find me. And I want to be perfect. So we can run our business. But I don't want to pay 25 to 50% more for these other things, you know, they're just in there are people who can, you know, there's a place for that, right, the a plus beautiful buildings with the pawns. That's not who we are, we're a little bit more, hey, what do you need, let's make it happen for you. And focus on running your business. Because similar to what you're saying, with burnout, if a business isn't profitable, it's not going to stick around. And so if you can get your expenses under control, that's, you know, step number one to finally actually paying yourself and taking home a, you know, some profit at the end of the year, hopefully, for these businesses. But we have suites anywhere ranging from, you know, 400 square feet, all the way up to over 3,000. And it's, it's fantastic, I have a little joke that I definitely net, the next Brookfield chamber I need to bring it up is, you know, you can go first, you know, for maybe you were looking at your credit union statement, these are all people in the building, and you realize that someone's been sent betting too much on shoes or you know, hunting gear. So then you go to marriage counseling upstairs. And then if that doesn't work, then you go over to one of the divorce attorneys. And then you have to redo your title insurance with one of the people in the building. But first, maybe you hired a private investigator just to make sure. And then you refinance your loan with the mortgage guy, like there's so much cross mingling. Oh, and the final one is, maybe you have a tattoo with their name on it. And now you need to you don't want that on you. So you can go to the laser, metal spa downstairs and get their name removed from your tattoo. So like, it's just a really cool building, we are very particular about who we put in the building. Because we want there to be that cohesiveness. You know, we want people to work nicely together. We don't want to have that kind of tension or frustration or competing businesses in the sense of being extremely loud, or, or that so, but it's fun, because similar to how you get to talk to everyone about their own world and their stories, similar for the business side, and I think that's why we've really gravitated towards it.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:16
Excellent. So you've, you've got everything. Wow, you've got a wide variety of different individuals in the building from you. We're talking about lawyers, you're talking about laser removal.
 
Whitney Rekowski  42:30
Yeah, that's like a med spa. And then there's counselors and insurance agents. So there's quite a variety inside the building. And really, it's a quiet building. I mean, we're getting to almost fill up that space as well. And eventually, I'm going to be kicked out of my office suite probably soon. But that's a good thing. You know, it's an we're getting people who are similar to, and I say, like our people, I mean, they're kind of people, they're positive people, they're, you know, just trying to live their life as well, if that makes sense. People who come in, and they're just not happy people, and they're mean, and they're kind of aggressive. We don't need that, right. If you can not have that in your world. Don't have it in your life, you know, you don't need someone bringing you down.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:21
Right. That's awesome. Awesome. Well, hey, I would love to talk to you about the question of the season, we are coming to time. And so I want to get to that I know that you've had an opportunity to preview that question. But if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself.
 
Whitney Rekowski  43:47
So I'm going to have a caveat that, you know, I love where I'm at today. And I don't know, if I change anything, what the rippling effects could be. All of the hard times we continue to face and have face made us who we are today. But some of the basic things would just be going back to high school, probably and be like start your Roth IRA, read the book, Simple Path to Wealth, learn about you just so you can be more confident in finance, right, just so you know, and kind of take control over that. Because they think that I wasn't taught a lot of that. And I think I'd be even further along, you know, on my financial independence in my world right now, if I had done that earlier. But really, it comes down to you know, I think a lot of people feel the imposter syndrome, especially when you're starting a business of Well, someone out there is a professional and does it better than me and why should I even try because they're just doing it and I can never get to their level. But it's just to have the competence that everyone has days that they feel like an impostor and you are doing it you're doing it well and encourage other people on their journey to become As we're all just doing the best weekend, every single day, and sometimes you need someone to kind of pick you up and bring you along on the journey.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:08
You know, I think that, and I agree, this question is not designed to say that, you know, you would change anything in your current life, but rather, you know, maybe make it a little easier in a in a certain aspect now, but I think there are a lot of people out there that would go back and say, hey, when your dad and your mommy say, put some money in the bank, now, you know, do it and invest in your Roth and your IRA accounts. That is the exact advice that I would give myself, like, hey, hey, when your dad says, Put your money, you know, save your money, do it. That is, that is definitely something but for some reason, that advice gets lost on a lot of or at least my generation, your generation seemed to be lost on a lot of, of individuals. And then when we hit, you know, this age, we kind of went, Oh, how am I so you know, I'm not so but how am I under invested? Why does everybody keep telling me I'm underinvested. Anyways, I have enjoyed so much having this conversation with you today. It's been an absolute pleasure. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, whether it be just to connect with you talk with you more, or to reach out to you about some office space. How would they go about doing that Whitney?
 
Whitney Rekowski  46:35
So you can always find me and LinkedIn, Whitney Rakowski, or we do have a website office leasing simplified.com. And I do have to have the caveat is even though I'm from Marketing, and that's my, you know, past life, definitely of the culprit of the cobblers children have no shoes. And my website is not nearly to the level I want it to be at because we focus on everything else, but it's there and the contact information is there. So either officeleasingsimplified.com, or LinkedIn.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:06
Excellent. Well, again, Whitney, I really appreciate your your time today. It's been a really fun conversation.
 
Whitney Rekowski  47:12
Sounds good. Thank you so much.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:15
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/whitney-r-a5681826/
E-mail - officeleasingsimplified@gmail.com
Website – Officeleasingsimplified.com 
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
building, people, business, day, business owners, happen, world, entrepreneur, space, life, insurance agent, leases, brookfield, job, w2, question, home, husband, vision boards, commercial
 

Episode 14 - Amy Beacom and Sue Campbell

Amy Beacom, Ed.D. and Sue Campbell are two amazing women that authored The Parental Leave Playbook. They have been leading the charge on rights for parental leave and helping businesses understand that a shift needs to happen on how we think about parental leave. This is one fantastic conversation that you should not miss.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
This episode is sponsored by practice law, the law firm that puts professionalism in legal representation. Their attorneys have 49 years of experience behind their work if you have questions or concerns. They are the attorneys you can trust with expertise in litigation, real estate, criminal defense, family and divorce, business and real estate planning. You can count on them. Practice moves legal services forward, you can contact practice at 414-988-9596 or 262-269-9140. Or you can inquire on their website, www.praktesslaw.com. That's www.praktesslaw.com.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:13
This is going to be a great conversation today. Dr. Amy Beacom is the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership, the first full service consultancy in the US to focus exclusively on parental leave, she conceived of and began developing the field of parental leave coaching and consulting in 2006. Drawing on her over 25 years in executive leadership development and coaching. Amy consults with Fortune 100 companies, international organizations, working parents and more to transform the way companies and our country engages with the parental leave transition. Amy is also the co author of the parental leave playbook 10 touch points to transition smoothly strengthen your family and continue building your career. We will also be joined by Sue Campbell. She is a writer, author and coach who has worked with the center of parental leave leadership since its early days helping communicate the transformative impact of their core mission. Her writing often focuses on issues important to parents. She has been published in many outlets, including prevention, Good Housekeeping scary mom and Mama lobe. Sue and Amy, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Both of you are such amazing women with you know, the your your topics and your book that you recently. Well, not recently, but with your book that you wrote. So why don't we jump right in? Sue? Why don't you start off by introducing yourself?
 
Sue Campbell  03:51
Sure. Thanks so much for having us. I'm Sue Campbell, and I'm a writer and a coach. And I've worked with the Center for parental leave leadership where Amy is the founder and CEO for about eight or nine years now. And really fell into this work because Amy offered something really unique, which was that we have a broken system. This is not a parent's job to fix when it comes to parental leave. And we can fix this in large part through employers while we're waiting for the country to get its act together. So after my first parental leave experience, I was all on board to help with that in any way I could.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:31
Excellent and Amy, why don't you introduce yourself?
 
Amy Beacom  04:35
Sure. Thank you for having us here. My name is Dr. Amy Beacom. I am the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership. We are the only full service consultancy in the country to focus exclusively on parental leave and we do everything from policy work to what our true love is coaching coach certification around parental leave and manager training the practice side of it.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:05
That's awesome. It's such a unique topic, because it's so strange because I just recently heard somebody say to me, Well, how it wasn't presented necessarily this way. But she's somebody said to me, Well, they're having a baby, and oh, my gosh, they're taking their full three months of leaves. And I'm like, yeah, well. I said, I mean, isn't that isn't that, like, kind of part of what you get to do? And? Well, yeah, but how does that impact everybody else? Like, yeah, that's, that's, you know, part of what you get to do. When you have a child, you know, that's part of. So it's such a great time for me to actually have because that's such a fresh thing in my fresh, right, that a conversation I just recently had, and what a topic to discuss, because one of the most impactful moments, and I remember my dad always telling me, there are there are only a couple of things in life that that literally can stop anybody in their track, and that everything else should wash away. Death life. And I can't remember the other one, but the birth. I mean, those are the two really huge ones. Right? Right. If somebody passes away, obviously, you need to, you need to stop and remember that person. The other thing is life, that should be the number one most important thing that anybody celebrates having a child and it shouldn't just be about the woman having a child, it should be about the dad, also having a child, you're never going to get to experience that again. Right? So what I mean, you can't just have a baby and run back to work, you need to be able to experience something you're never ever going to experience again, ever with that. That's child right.
 
Amy Beacom  07:10
Here, here, we and you know, we are on board with that message. Right. And I think the important thing to for your audience to really understand is that is while that transition, that massive personal and professional transition is happening to that individual who's becoming a parent, to your point earlier with that, that story of that conversation you had it is also happening to those around them. And so what we do in a lot of our work is we help hold space and make a process that is clear and supportive for that new parent that also considers those around them. So I don't I just don't want your listeners to think that those are mutually exclusive. Because a lot of what we are trying to shift people's thinking around is these can be mutually beneficial.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:06
Awesome. And that's not something that I thought that definitely I mean, again, I'm not the expert, you You guys are the experts. Right? You know. So you the you guys collaborated on writing a book about parental leave, obviously. So tell me a little bit in Tell me a little bit about this. Obviously, don't know, spoilers, you everybody needs to go out and buy the book. But, you know, tell me a little bit and tell me the story. How did you and you're both parents. So tell me the story of where this originated? And why you became so passionate about this?
 
Amy Beacom  08:41
Sure, I guess so I should take that one. This is Amy. It started with me becoming a parent almost 16 years ago. And like many people who get into any kind of parents support or birth support work, they have a, an experience themselves. And for me, it was a very, I'll try and give you the short version. I was living in New York, I was getting my doctorate in Organizational Psychology at Columbia focused on executive education and coaching, specifically women's leadership advancement and how to create more space for women in leadership roles within companies. And so I'd been doing that work for a long time. I'd been in that field before going back to school, and I was consulting to some of the biggest companies in this country around work life balance issues, women's leadership issues. And I was very excited to become a mom. And I thought I would I knew it right thought I could pull it off. I thought oh, I'm an expert in this area. I'm going to be fine. And then I had my child and was knocked off my feet by the experience. And for your listeners, this was T men a half plus years ago, right? So it was a very different environment. And there was no awareness around this time being a transition being an important thing that was happening being something that could be valuable. And it's leadership lessons to bring back into work. None of that was at all part of the conversation. It was you women only had children, they went away, had them talk about it, like came back. And that was it. Right? They fit back right in, they weren't changed. That was it. And so when I had my child, I had a very different experience. I was like, Nope, that's, that's not really going to fly. And more importantly, we are completely missing one of the most important moments in a woman's career lifecycle. And if we can support that well. And back then I was only thinking about women, because I was that's that was my focus. I've since expanded that to all genders. But if we can really support that time, well, both at home and at work, that will transform our work, work cultures, that will allow for more of the things that I was working towards more equity in, in our organizations, better culture is more family friendly cultures, just more humane Places to Work that were also hugely effective. Because as we know, mothers are hugely effective. So that's what started it, I changed the focus of my doctoral research and began to create a field which at the time I was calling parental leave, or maternity coaching and consulting and now is parental leave coaching and consulting. And I have been fighting for that to happen ever since. And that's taken lots of forms. See, PLL is one, the book is another. Our coach certification program is another we've just started this year to train coaches external to our organization. So some of those are internal HR within organizations leave navigators within organizations. Some of those are doulas therapists who work with new parents already, but want to expand their knowledge. And, and then a lot of them are coaches who are expanding into the parental leave support timeframe. So as long answers, Sue anything to add to that.
 
Sue Campbell  12:50
Yeah, I'll just add a little bit about the book itself. The book itself, we wanted it to be like having a parental leave coach in your hand, because we know that very few people are getting parental leave coaching. So we wanted to really distill the the essentials of our work with clients when we coach them and be able to put that in the palm of any new parents hand. So it leads you through these 10 touch points that can have this outsize impact on the success of your transition. And it's broken into three phases, right? People think of parental leave as just the time that someone is physically out of the office. And that is not the case, as Amy referred to it's a transition there is before you go on leave, when you're preparing to step out the door and handoff your work, there's during leave when you're bonding with your new child and your family. And then there's returning from leave where you're trying to incorporate your previous worker identity with your new parent identity into a working parent identity. So this transition can take a year or longer. And it's really important to recognize what is broken in the system. And what you have control over so that you know the avenues where you have a chance to improve and you can lead your own leave because a lot of organizations, they're still a vacuum. And they're sort of recreating the wheel with every new lead. But we also recommend the book right for new for anybody in an organization, who is in HR who wants to understand what a good transition can look like, right? When actually the publisher wanted it to be just for parents. But we wanted to do the you know, when you were a kid and you had a book on one side, it was one book and then you like flipped it over. And it was another one. So we wanted to do one side is for the new parent and then you flip it over and it's for the manager, right? Because managers can absolutely make or break the parental leave experience. And when we go into an organization, we're not just coaching that new parent, we're also coaching the manager so they can understand how to get the benefits out of the transition, how to use it to grow your team, etc, etc. So it's really important to create that common language and that's what this book can do.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:58
You know in this This is really interesting. There's a common thread in one hearing what I'm hearing here because in bear with me here for a second. So manufacturing back in the day, and this is still a struggle, still struggle, manufacturing floor, there was this brilliant CNC operator who knew how to run his machine. And all of his notes, were in a little black book that he kept in his locker. And he didn't tell anybody, you know how to run this machine, because it was, well, if anybody else knows I could be expendable kind of thing. Well, nowadays, you know, we want to spread the knowledge, we want to cross train everybody. I mean, it's, it's kind of runs on the same premise, right? You know, hey, you have somebody who's going to be going on leave, this opens the door for more cross training, more understanding of why it's important to cross train. So, I mean, this is not a new concept. But it's just a concept based on now you have somebody who's in a transition in their life where, you know, you have to be some maybe sometimes a little bit more sensitive. I remember when I was pregnant, my boss once sat me down, and he goes, You know, I don't want to be rude. He goes, but am I talking to Leighann? Or am I talking to pregnant Leighann, he goes, You seem a little wow, is I don't know how to take that.
 
Amy Beacom  16:30
So we might do a little coaching around that.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:32
And I and I know I have, sometimes I can be, I can be a little bit of an explosive personality when I get my, you know, my, like, determined mine on and I know that when I was pregnant, I was like, hyper, like explosive in certain sort. So I he and I had a really, really strong, solid relationship where he could say that to me, I wasn't offended by it. Now. I know that out there, there are women who are going, I would have sued him. No, no, we didn't. It was we have that relationship. But I mean, going back where was?
 
Amy Beacom  17:10
Just it's not a new concept, right? It's a, what we're doing. And much of our work as you're picking up on, is we're just saying, this is a really good time to learn all this stuff. This is an experiential learning opportunity that is free, it's already happening in your organization sees it, right, that is cross training, if that is learning how to create more family supportive supervisory behaviors, how to have better communication to your story, how to understand where that line is, and where your trust levels are. So you don't cross it. You know, all of those things come up during this time there, right. And we, we want people to walk into that instead of what not only walk away from it, but like, lock it up in a black box and put it up on a shelf of something that can't be touched or talked about, because you might spurs a gender discrimination lawsuit, or you know, to your point I want, you know, let's do them. It's all very, you know, it's all very bright. Live time.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:23
Yeah, very, it's very interesting. I mean, wow, very interesting. And so this kind of leads me into my next, you know, my next question. So, why do you think so many people still fear taking time off for the full length of time? I mean, we we are now talking about, you know, how this transition people are becoming more open to this, but there's still this fear around, oh, if I take off my full three months, a job may not be there. But we as a society are looking at this even more, as you know, yeah, you you can take time to bond. But yet, I still.
 
Amy Beacom  19:08
Were sending two messages. So sorry, I don't want to interrupt. But I just that's such an important point. You're saying where people are fearful of taking time off, because there's the overt message that they're being told you get three months, and then there's the subtle penalizing that they experience or they see around them for those who do take that time away. So there's still navigating a climate in which and culture in which we haven't shifted. We're in the process of it. Some organizations have done it beautifully. But the larger messaging and the the subtle messaging and not so subtle, sometimes write is you will be penalized if you take that time.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:54
You're right. And that I guess goes back to how I started this when I had account when I have that comma recession of oh, you know, I can't believe she's taking this time off. How is this going to affect me? And I find it interesting. There are other countries out there that give, Hey, go and take a full year off. Yet? How is it that here in the US, we are so far behind in something like this, yet other countries are so far advanced?
 
Amy Beacom  20:25
Well, so in part that is a misconception, there's too, and the way to think about it is between if you separate policy and practice, so many, many countries, all countries except for the US, and for five small little nation states offer paid leave. So paid leave is a policy, that means you're getting your pay for when you're away from work. And some, as you mentioned, go up to a year some we have nothing in the US. So that's a horrible, it needs to change, right? It should have changed. It was part of the build back better act this last year that was not passed, we would have had paid leave as a national policy for the first time ever. So for your listeners who aren't aware FMLA is and I'm sure they are their HR wanks. But you know, FMLA is unpaid job protection is not paid leave a lot of employees think that FMLA also means they get their pay. So there's always a wake up call around pay. But policy and pay are one thing, practice is another. So in most of those other countries, they also have issues around practice and culture. And how do we do this? So we, I just caution, because we think, Oh, well, so and so does this so beautifully. And it's not necessarily true. We started our work. After I created the parental leave coaching program, the it's an evidence based program that I created as part of my doctoral work at Columbia. And that is, our country wasn't ready for it yet. So we ended up piloting all of that work in Australia, which has a much longer paid leave policy. And what we found was the US actually was much further ahead in some of the cultural pieces in some of the support advancement, organizational pieces. And so feel free to pop in if you have any examples of that, because I mind is blanking at the moment. But that was just a really eye opening time for us where we had gone into it thinking oh, because they have paid leave, they must be doing everything right. And they were actually looking to us and saying, Oh wow, look at how you guys have milk, stork breast milk can ship with you, you know, now there's nannies who can fly with new parents who travel and of course, these are only in the organizations that are doing it really well. Some of the enterprise level companies, but I just want your listeners to separate out those two, there's policy and a strong policy is critical to support a strong practice. But they you there are things you can do in the practice level if your policy hasn't caught up.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:36
Interesting. So if I'm understanding this correct, policy versus practice, we are which one are we ahead on?
 
Sue Campbell  23:49
Behind on policy, we don't have a paid leave policy.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:53
Right. Okay.
 
Amy Beacom  23:54
But there are some elements of practice where we're a little bit ahead, right, we get more creative, we've had to be more creative with practice, because we don't have the policy.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:03
Interesting. Very interesting. Now, and you mentioned something in there that that triggered me when it comes to, and I'm sure that you come up against this regularly. Because when when a woman is transitioning back into the workforce, and this has been something that's and I remember the first time I ever saw this and I was like, Oh, what is this room that has a a chair in it and you know, a nice lighting that I'm not allowed to go in because I'm 20 and I don't have a child. So, is this something that you talk to companies about for women who are transitioning back in an actual room where they can go and pump?
 
Sue Campbell  24:49
Absolutely.
 
Amy Beacom  24:52
In many places you legally need to provide that
 
Leighann Lovely  24:55
legally need to provide it something that's other than the dirty Bathroom, I'm assuming.
 
Amy Beacom  25:01
Yes. And for your listeners, I, you know, just to put a name on it back in the 90s, when I was talking about these issues, they were called lactation stations, the rooms and where the, the breastfeeding person would go and pump, pump their milk. So now there's much more, you know, there's many nicer names, but it's, uh, my, some of them get really funny.
 
Sue Campbell  25:31
What's my first parental leave, when I came back to work, I asked for a place to pump. So they gave me a conference room with a broken lock on the door. And just there was just a table, right. And then after I was all done breastfeeding, shortly after that, that room got a major spruce up, it got a water source, it got like a little locker, it got a fridge, it got like, it just got the treatment. And I walked in there and I'm like, All right, I'm not going to be jealous, I'm just going to be happy that they move forward.
 
Amy Beacom  26:13
So to answer your question, that is something we do talk to organizations about because we're what we're trying to do is help them understand how to support this timeframe for that new parent to feel genuinely supported, and that they matter to their organization. So parts of that include, how are they going to return in a way that allows them to show up at work. That means if they are a nursing mom, and they need to pump while they're at work, they need to do that regularly. Or they will start leaking milk all over the office, right? Like so you can't, you need to make that possible. That means considering how long meetings go building in breaks, if you have a nursing mom on your team, you know that there's just some basics that most people don't consider because they're not in that position. But for that new parent, it's their entire world. And if something goes wrong in those three months on their return three to six months is they're shifting back and trying to navigate both this entirely new way of being in in their work person. If that's supported, well, you have a loyal, dedicated employee who will help you with all future parents, you know, there's there's so much to be gained from it. For very, very little give. Just basic consideration. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:43
And this is this is all extremely fascinating, because one I when I had my child I want I didn't have to. I've failed as a as a breastfeeding mother. I lasted a month, and then
 
Amy Beacom  28:01
It's not a failure.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:04
It just it I got what is it called? Status? Yes. And I went, yep. No, I'm throwing in the throwing. Yep.
 
Amy Beacom  28:16
Well, Kozma status is a horrible, horrible, incredibly awful infection and derailing out support in our culture to do these things that happens to most moms.
 
Sue Campbell  28:28
Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:29
So I threw in my white flag. And I said, one month is I feel as a success, and I was happy with that. And so I had no feelings of I failed. I actually felt like one month was a great achievement.
 
Amy Beacom  28:46
So in our culture, it is yes, it's fantastic.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:49
So by the time I went back to work, I didn't I didn't need to. And I did take my full three months, and I had no guilt over it. I had a I had a good employer who was like yep, take your time. And then I was one of the lucky ones that never had to do the daycare I never had to do but I if I would have had to do daycare, I mean I I can understand how parents are are just so nervous and nerve wracking about I'm dropping my child off with a stranger and then I'm gonna go to a job and can't check in or I'm not able to you know, I just I completely get it I completely and totally understand I was one of the lucky ones that didn't have to do that. I had family members who but I forgot my point I got stuck on the word mastitis and couldn't remember. Um, however, I also now work in an environment where my daughter regularly shows up at my office and hangs around and everybody comes running out and I want to play with her I want to play with Skylar. I'm like, oh my god, this is insane. We have Netflix on our TV. So that The kids just show up they can, they can sit and watch. So we have an extremely kid friendly environment at my office. So I'm just not used to having conversations about what Wait, what do you mean, you don't talk about your kids? What do you mean, you don't, that it's not acceptable? Because my employer is just one of those employers that let me preface this, my boss has four children. So I guess he gets it, you know, he gets it. Yeah. So to have a company. And he also hired our office manager while she was pregnant. Knowing that shortly after she, you know, came on, she was going to be taking maternity leave.
 
Amy Beacom  30:46
And think about the message that sends to your, all the employees in your organization, right, just that choice to hire someone he paid, or not he by your organization paid for that leaves, I'm assuming you're in a state that doesn't have paid leave. And Wisconsin doesn't. That message, you could not pay a communications team, that amount of money that that salary equated to, to send the message to your employees that they matter, and that they matter throughout their life events? Like, you can't pay enough for that message. Anyway, that's I, I just wish more managers would understand that.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:28
Right? I mean, it's just it's, and again, I know that there's, you know, out there, you can't discriminate, oh, you find out somebody's pregnancy, choose not to hire, that's discrimination. But come on, I live in breathe and the hiring and firing industry, I'm in the staffing industry, you can find any reason from here until, you know, to not hire somebody, it doesn't have to be that. The point being is that I have been lucky to always see the really good side to hear some of the the negative side of how some of these people, men and women alike, are discriminated against because of family because of kids.
 
Amy Beacom  32:12
Most of these people, right? It is jority in this country still. Yeah. And and the ones that are doing it well are the outliers, and they need to be more vocal about more visible about how they're doing it, because other companies did. They don't think it's possible. And then we were like, yes, it is and not just possible, it is the best ROI you're gonna have.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:43
Right? Right. And, and obviously, you know, I talk nonstop about creating a great culture at a company and this is 100%, all about creating that great culture. Now, I want to shift this a little bit. It started out as maternity leave, which is 100% focused on women. When When did it become parental leave? And have you seen men finally standing up saying, Hey, why can't I take the time that just because my body didn't go through it? Why don't I get the opportunity to bond with my child?
 
Amy Beacom  33:21
I'll just say real quickly, it started as maternity leave, because that's where my focus and attention was, as soon as I started to dig into what actually matters and what is going to make this better for the women in this country. It it shifted to include dads. And so what we now know and what research has shown is until we have equal leaves for dads and moms, moms will continue to be penalized for taking leave. And so when the when the floor expectation is no matter who becomes a parent or how they all take a minimum of three months of leave, that then becomes the standard, nobody's penalized. It's just the way that we do things. If it's inequitable across gender or type of family way you become a family, job role, length of employment and accompany you know all of those pieces. If if that is not equal, there will be inequities. So do you want to add to that?
 
Sue Campbell  34:35
Yeah, I think that's just a great point. It's not even just moms and dads. It's also any type of family formation gay couples, gender nonconforming folks, right. As we look at that dei lens, we really need to apply that to the parental leave timeframe to and we've seen so many businesses come to us for a policy help and they have good intentions. They just haven't thought enough. Big Picture about it. So they would have, you know, birthing parent gets this much non birthing parent gets this much. But what if you have two non birthing parents because they have adopted a child do they not get as much bonding leave with their child like, this just doesn't make sense. And it needs to be equitable for any type of family, any type of family formation, because it is good for the parent, it's good for the child, it's good for the organization, if someone's mind is off with their kid, because they had to come back to work way too early, that they're not providing as much value for your company as they could be. Right, we just need to really, really widen the lens on this issue and think in terms of what we want our long term outcome to be. And that's always to retain good employees. And the retain way you retain good employees is by letting them know that they're supported and valued, and they can get their personal needs met as well as their professional needs.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:57
I've never thought of it that way. And I do hear regularly that the birthing parents gets X amount and the non birthing parent gets that but you don't. And perfect example, grandparents, and grandparents don't necessarily have to be of non working age grandparents ended up with sad, you know, child, for whatever reason, it might be, if that becomes a new family dynamic, you would think that, you know, hey, it takes some time for that child to possibly become, you know, transition into a new, this becomes a new family. I mean, so how would that take? You know, can you fall into that, and there's many different ways that families can be formed and.
 
Amy Beacom  36:44
And we encourage the broadest definitions possible, we're, we're the Center for parental leave leadership of what we're doing is family leave. So if that's kinship leave, if that's caregiving leave, you know, that is where we would want organizations to get to, we just focus in on the parental leave timeframe, because it's the most common, it's the most understood 80% of employees, at some point become parents. It's a, you know, it's a it's a good opportunity.
 
Sue Campbell  37:18
Yeah, and it sets the organization up so well, right, Amy was saying, this is an experiential learning opportunity that your company can use to its full advantage, or it can shoot itself in the foot, right. So you if you know what to do for parental leave, you know what to do when someone has to go out on a family leave, or someone has to go care for an aging parent, right, all of the same tools and concepts of our 10 touch points that we cover in the book apply to any type of leave.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:47
That completely makes sense. Again, families form in so many different ways. And you shouldn't penalize one family because of the way that that family formed. Exactly. Just because you are the one that births that child, whether that be a month, three months, it's still about bonding, it's not necessarily about the recovery, because the recovery comes with. And again, I what I think that when I had my child, and I keep going back to because we all pull for my own our own experience. Within a week, my husband was back at work, because that was his, his company policy, he had to take vacation, it was his vacation in order for him to stay home, he was back at work within a week. So regardless of the fact that I had a C section, I still had to be on my feet by myself, and capable of taking care of that child by myself. So
 
Amy Beacom  38:43
Oh my gosh, it's just too common. I and I just have to let out some outrage around that. Because you say it in as everyone does in this country as if that's normal. And it is not normal. That is a massive abdominal surgery, you're recovering from a tiny human that you are fully responsible for. And you're having you're supposed to be doing it all at once. Like it's outrageous that that is the way we are set up in our country. And I think when you said a second ago, we all pull from our own experience. We also normalize our own experiences. And so I just would encourage your listeners to just step out of that for a second and two ways one to just notice. Is that the way it should be there is a moral piece to this, you know, there is a an element of that. But also, there's very few things in our life where both can be true. It can be a good thing to do a human thing to do and a wise business thing to do. This is one of those places. And then when we all pull from our own experience recognize that either If you're a person going through leave yourself, or you are somebody who's managing it or interacting with it, those are you're just trying to put yourself into the other people's shoes for a little while, ask them about it. How is this going for you is, are there things we could do to help make this easier? What can we do to help improve this experience for you, you are not supposed to know what that other person's going through without training, conversation, communication and understanding. And I so often we talk with managers or new parents who are like, while they're doing their thing, I don't want to interrupt or if I say something, I'm going to say the wrong thing and hurt their feelings, or, you know, those kinds of pieces. And a lot of our work is pure communication skills. How? Anyway, I'm just going on a little bit of a tangent there. I love Yeah, but it just to pull from our own experiences.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:09
You're right, and whether that's right or wrong. And, and I totally agreed that because I remember my husband saying, you know, two days before he had to go back to work, he says, You're gonna have to stop taking your pain medication. Before I go back, because, you know, you, you fall asleep, like, right after you take it. And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my god, how am I gonna? How am I going to stand up, you know, and walk around without taking this medication. But that is the reality for so many, for so many people. And remember, my daughter's only four. So, you know, many of my listeners, I you know, I mentioned my daughter occasionally because she's insane. She's for the need for Eurostar. Um, but that is that is, you know, the reality is that, you know, for so many people.
 
Amy Beacom  41:59
I don't want to make any assumptions about your relationship. But I will say broadly, when we set it up that a dad is going back to work one week after his wife gives birth, that sets up home dynamics where that mom is the primary caregiver to use that term. But usually the sole caregiver with some dad helping in quotes or dad's babysitting in quotes. And that is not a sustainable way to set up a two parent partnership where both parents are working. It doesn't, it's just not. So just from a purely practical standpoint, we need to give equal length of leave so that both parents are equally set up to be equal caregivers at home, equal employees at work. And it's just the way we do things, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:52
Yep. And, and now, he only works. He works three days a week, I shouldn't say only he works 312 hours. So he's home with her by himself, Thursdays and Fridays, which you can see the stress on his face when I walk in. So you know, he is definitely, definitely a full time dad full time work full time, everything. Same with me, you know, you're right. It definitely sets that precedence early on as Mom's going to be the, you know, full time worker, it's going to be, you know, the the sole caregiver. It's. So I think that what you guys do is is absolutely amazing. And we, yeah, I mean, we need we need to have a change, we need to have a shift, we need to make sure that companies understand what's important. And we have seen this so much over the last couple of years, that people are starting to finally stand up for what they want. And they're telling companies that, hey, I mean, I remember going into an interview and saying, Look, I want to work here, but I need you to know right up front, that the most important thing to me is my family. I come to work so that I can I can live to be with my family. I don't I don't live to work. I mean, that is that is the way that I look at it. Now do I love what I do? Absolutely. I love my job. I love my professional life. But there is definitely a point in which I will shut down my computer and say now it's family time. And I think the world needs to look at it that way. And companies who are figuring that out where the importance is and if they allow them to have those moments and help them have that time with their family and be successful as parents, they will do and work harder at those companies.
 
Sue Campbell  44:47
Absolutely. So there's there's nothing to lose. There is literally nothing to lose by supporting your working parents. Well there is every thing to gain. And it's just that really short sighted thinking, because we've been thinking a certain way, this is the way things have been done for a very long time, right. That's part of our message of getting the book out and doing I don't know, we've done like, over 100 podcasts since the book came out last September, because we want to get the word out of like, there is a way to do this that you can step into, we already figured so much of this out, and you can benefit it with a very low cost, and a very high ROI. You can retain employees, you can make them more effective, you can make them happier. And in the process, you can make us a stronger society, because we'll have stronger families.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:43
Yeah. So we are coming.
 
Amy Beacom  45:46
I was just gonna say on on Sue's point, the book also has a whole host of resources that we use in our work that we've offered up for free with within it, there's a link in it, that it action planning templates, templates for leave planning, reflection, workbooks, manager checklists, there's so many resources in there. Because our goal is to change the way our society does this. And you were saying a second ago, Liam, that we need to change it. We are in the midst of it as a country. And I think that the only people slow to catch on are the corporation, right? It's the people already are there that are having children right now, the ones who are older, who maybe had my age children, they don't really understand that the expectation has shifted. This isn't about an organization allowing their employee to have the this is an expectation, that's a floor, they expect it. It is about how they support around it. So yeah, I just wanted to underscore that.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:03
Well, excellent, we are coming to time. So I'm going to ask both of you to answer the question of the season. And just so you guys know, I will be putting your contact information in the show notes so that people if they want to reach out to you, if they want to get a copy of your book, I will put a link to where they can do that. So you know, if anybody's interested in reaching out, they can also find you, I know that you have a Facebook page, if you want to, you know, give a shout out to where they can reach out to please do so. But before we do that question of the season. Sue, why don't you go first, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Sue Campbell  47:50
I think I would go back to when I was pregnant with my first child. And I would just say girl, you have so many more choices than you think you have right now. Right? Like everything feels very binary. And especially when we're going through something for the first time we're waiting for someone to tell us what we can have and what we can do, right and what like how this all works. And in this country right now, because there is a bit of a vacuum around this, you have a lot more power and choice than you think you have. And you can use it in a way that it's going to benefit everyone.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:24
Excellent. And what about you, Amy?
 
Amy Beacom  48:27
That question is making me emotional. Yeah, I was thinking what Sue said, right that that going back and really saying think outside the box lady, because this world that you've created, where it's right here, in this little square walls, isn't it? There's so much more. But I think instead I would go back to me when I had my son 15 and a half years ago and tell myself this, too shall pass. That what you are going through little young Amy with postpartum depression and horrible breastfeeding issues and not understanding that your career can survive. This will turn into something that will help change countless people's lives in this country. And then every tear and heartache that you persevere through will be worth it.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:29
That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank you both for taking the time to talk with me. It has been such an amazing opportunity to talk to two brilliant women in about such an important topic. So thank you both so much for your time.
 
Amy Beacom  49:48
Worse. Can I say one last thing?
 
Leighann Lovely  49:52
Absolutely
 
Sue Campbell  49:55
Classic Amy
 
Amy Beacom  50:00
Well, what I said to my younger self make reminded me perinatal mental health is such a huge part of this timeframe. And what we do and one of our partner organizations is Postpartum Support International. So if anyone is listening here, who is either within an organization or experiencing that themselves, please reach out that we can put you in touch, they can put you in touch. One of the things we do in our coaching work is we do have the first perinatal mental health screening to be used in a workplace setting. So we're bringing that conversation and normalizing mental health within workplaces. And I just think that is an incredibly important thing for your listeners to understand and and then in terms of your question earlier about where to follow, we're on all the socials, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn,
 
Sue Campbell  50:49
The best thing to do is to sign up for the email list. And that way, you'll get all of the latest stuff, whereas social you're going to miss it because you know, they're gonna screen it and you're not going to see it on the email list, if you want the good CPL leadership.com and you'll get a prompt to join the email list.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:12
Perfect and I will like I said, I will put that in the show notes so that it is easily found. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
parents, parental leave, child, organization, transition, people, companies, amy, support, book, leave, coaching, birthing, country, family, sue, women, employees, policy, understand
 

Episode 13 - Paula Rauenbuehler - Emotional Intelligence

Paula Rauenbuehler is an amazing woman with a well-rounded background that crosses years of experience as well as countries, giving her a unique ability to understand people's behaviors, needs, and wants. Along with this, her areas of study are in emotional intelligence and now as a coach and speaker, she spends her time working with companies and individuals helping them find their true potential. She is also a Distinguished Fellow Coach with BetterUP  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Paula Rauenbuehler brings over 30 years of experience in human resources with service based organizations, to coaching clients on leadership development, having experienced a variety of cultures in the US and in the Caribbean enhances her ability to meet people where they are and take them where they want to go specializing in emotional intelligence. Her work with clients, helps them create their chosen legacy, clarify their goals, and challenges them to reach beyond their comfort zone. And certainly above and beyond their job description. In this realm, her clients explore the neuroscience of leadership and get to what really makes those legendary leaders, you read and hear about what inspires Paula most is tapping into the unique talents of her clients and working with them to make the best use of their strengths. While building confidence and competence. I call strength and weakness aces in spades. The goal is not to fill in the spaces, but to play to your aces. Well, Paula, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you on the show.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  02:21
Yeah, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Excellent.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:25
So why don't you tell me you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself? Sure.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  02:29
Well, I think the current terminology now for people that are kind of going off on their own is I'm a recovering HR director. I spent about 30 years primarily in the hospitality industry, in HR, a few years also in healthcare industry, but really working with the employees. And that's really where I thrived. And you know, you think of hotels really, as a front desk, and housekeeping and that type of stuff, but there's an incredible amount of opportunity to work with employees, and help them be the best that they can be. And that's really what drew me into kind of a service based business is it really is all about the experience, which is gives you a lot of creativity, and a lot of opportunity to help people really bring out the best of themselves. So spend about 30 years, you know, in the hospitality industry, a lot of people they grow there, they grow their career by working at different properties. So it's a little bit like a military, other than we get to work in prettier places. You know, that type of thing. So I did, probably about 10 years and the Wisconsin market, then moved to California and lived in Southern California, northern California. From there, I went to Jamaica and spent about 18 months from there, went to Boston, returned to Wisconsin did some Chicago time and then came back to Wisconsin. So what I found was really, that with each location, it was it was slightly different, but the people really are the same. And they had the same needs and the same aspirations. The culture of the hotel was slightly different because each area kind of brought their own spin to hospitality, you know, so in Jamaica, they're very musical. And so you would walk down the hallways, and the housekeepers would just be singing to themselves. You know, you know, Boston, certainly much more city centric and much more formal, you know, those types of things. So it was it challenged me in that way. But each time I moved, I kept looking for that perfect job, and thought that maybe this would be the one that would allow me to do what I enjoyed most which was developing people. And, and it would start out great. But then, after a while, it came to be the same thing. And HR, I think a lot by necessity is turned to be more about compliance than it is about really developing people. And and with each move that that lesson came sooner and sooner. So the point I think the shortest time was probably about three months where before it would have been like a year. or two, before I kind of realized, okay, this is it's the same thing. And I've always liked that developing people. And so about three years ago, I decided for a couple of reasons to strike out on my own, so that I could have that quality of life that I wanted, and so that I could give the best of myself more often. And doing that in a corporate environment, I realized that that just that probably was not going to happen. So that was 2019. Left for for that reason to start my own business, but also to help my mother live more comfortably in her home in the last months of her life. So I had an opportunity to spend time with her, and really give back to her what she had given to me throughout all of my years, and then be able to spend enough time to be able to create my own business. And so I did that about three years ago, and have been working with clients on things like emotional intelligence, and how does that relate to leadership? How does that relate to problem solving, stress management, all those different types of things?
 
Leighann Lovely  06:05
Wow. So before we dive too deep into what you just mentioned, I want to go back to you know, a little bit of your experience with, you know, the hotel industry. And one you it sounds like you had an amazing opportunity to experience a lot of different cultures, because you lived in a lot of different areas that were clearly different. Obviously, in Jamaica, you have, like you mentioned, you know, that even the housekeeper is just the the cultural differences there were everybody was singing versus Boston, or here in Wisconsin, I'm sure that's drastically different. What were some of the challenges being moving from one state to another, with just that piece of the different mindsets from one place to another?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  06:51
I think the you know, the opportunity was is to really take the time to learn their culture, before trying to make any changes is that seek first to understand, rather than to be understood, and it's not so much if it's not broke, don't fix it. But to really better understand what the challenge is. So in Jamaica, for example, that property in particular, was one that typically was used to help leaders come develop their skills, and then they would move on. And so most leaders spent two years there. And so one of the challenges with the employees were that they knew these leaders were only here for two years. And then they would switch to a new leader, and they'd have to adjust to a new leader. And so it's not that the employees were not loyal, it's just that they had experienced so much change, that they, they didn't necessarily invest that much, because they knew in two years, which goes by like, like lightning, they'd have to learn somebody else's style.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:53
And you know, that's hard. I mean, that's ridiculously hard when you're constantly, why would you state your roots, you know, it's like a kid in a military family, why make a whole bunch of friends if you know that you're going to be leaving in two years, or leaving in a year from now? Because you're, you know, sure, well,
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  08:09
yeah, and for the leaders, you know, they want to come in and make their merch, because this was a way to kind of get their name out there. And so they did want to come in and make changes quickly. Right? Because they wanted that reputation. And, and that's not easy to do. When you don't even know what the problem is, right? You're bringing somebody else's perspective in there, and not really taking the time to get to know the team members, because you're so some of those leaders are so concerned about their own reputation, and they wanted to have that legacy. And they're like, wait a minute, you don't even you haven't even you don't even know my name, or how we do things here. So working with the leaders to help them understand how to navigate that, so that they could still build that legacy. But not just be a flash in the pan kind of a thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:58
Right. Interesting. Very interesting. And so then you worked in place, you mentioned Boston. Right. Right. So how was how was Boston versus a market in Wisconsin? You know, different.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  09:11
Boston was different. Certainly, you know, I worked in the, you know, in the heart of the city, you know, so certainly a lot of activity. That's that location that I started with, had a very strong union presence. So I had worked in Union properties before, but unions weren't quite as strong. And I pretty sure it was local, local, one or two, so was one of the very first hospitality unions. So they had a long history. And I think they had just finished contract negotiations. So there was quite a bit of emotion tied with that, and us versus them, you know, the things. So it was, you know, I hadn't worked in a union property for you know, that 18 months that I was in Jamaica and And the one in California wasn't all that aggressive. So adjusting to that. And the key that was really having strong relationships with the union stewards, not to have them do things my way. But again, to be able to understand where they were coming from. So they we didn't have so many confrontations, and we have more conversations, and really working with, with those employees to Okay, what do we do here? Because we're both in this together,
 
Leighann Lovely  10:26
Right. And so now you made a comment that, you know, you quickly started to realize, you know, instead of being a year, being three months at times, that while I'm not so much the head come in and be the people leader, rather than that HR person who is laying down those policies and procedures, and, I guess, being the, the gatekeeper of the company, and making sure that they're protected, right. And that is, unfortunately, where HR, where human resources has kind of gone. We've seen it evolve over time, and many of us, you know, legacy, HR people. I don't know if I'm considered that quite yet, I think of getting up there. But, you know, I originally went into it into human resources, because I wanted to be a resource for humans at a company and help people. But quickly, you know, even in the beginning of my career, because I started really, in 2008, I quickly became, wow, this, this is not fun. I'm laying people off, I'm being laid off. And all of a sudden, it was, hey, we need somebody to come in and change policies. And I'm like, wow, everybody hates me. And I'm not saying that that's for every, you know, there are a lot of great HR leaders out there. So tell me a little bit more about that kind of eye opening moment where you're like, Wow, this is really becoming apparent for me. And I guess what drove you to then say, Hey, I'm going to be my own business owner. And I know, you also mentioned a personal drive for that. Right. But sure.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  12:04
Yeah, and, you know, I mean, the compliance is, is critical. It I mean, HR, I think one of the primary functions of the HR function is to protect the company. Right? And so the harassment training, you know, now, currently the DEI training and those things are all important, right? Unfortunately, I think when, when companies need to make a choice of what they what they need, they need to protect the company from lawsuits. And so the push is to do compliance training, and do these policies and procedures. I think I heard somebody describe an orientation is, these are all the ways not to get fired in your first 90 days. Yeah, that six makes me want to attend orientation. But it's true. You know, it's how they, you know, cya. And I get that. But it was interesting. So now we're hearing people leaving in companies, you know, they're experiencing a lot of turnover, and losing top talent. And so a lot of focus is on keeping the talent. And I had seen a graph, within the last week of where training dollars are spent. The top one was training new hires critically important. Second one was compliance. The last one on the list was developing people for succession planning. And so you have these people that are, you know, they're compliant, and you're getting new hires up to speed. But I don't know that I've ever looked, when I've considered people for promoting, I don't think I've ever looked at whether they did compliance perfectly. I look for their leadership skills, relationship building, are they engaging their team, and if companies want to keep their leaders, and development is what I'm hearing is what is very important, if not most important for employees is that they have developmental opportunities there, they're not going to get it by sending them to compliance training.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:04
No. And I remember seeing a statistic and I, it's lost to me right now off the top of my head, but it was like, I think it was like in the 70%, somewhere of people have managers who, who took a, you know, a survey. And it was like, 70% of them were saying, you know, did you ever have management or leadership training, and none of none of them had, they were offered a management role. They were moved into management and none of them and had any type of management or leadership training. Now, and obviously, you know, man, those are two different things, management versus leadership, but Right, both of them are vitally important depending on the type of role that you have. You can't just take and you can't just take an employee who's been, you know, their whole career, a follower and then say, hey, we want you to now be a manager or a leader and navigate that. It sure It's not, it's not an easy thing to do. No completely different mindset. And then companies wonder, why are you failing at this?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  15:09
Right? Well, and what I've seen with those, those people that have been pushed into that situation is since they don't know how to lead, they know that raising their voice will get results, it's not the best way to get results, because then they're, you know, managing or leading through command and control. But they know if I enforce the policies, if I write people up because of this, that or another thing, that's all that they know to do. And we don't really teach people even in you know, in my MBA program many, many years ago, maybe it's changed. But I had no leadership classes, a couple of HR classes, but that was more about policies and procedures. But everything else was about productivity and that type of thing. So and maybe that's changed. But even in the organizations, we might do a leadership program that was maybe 12 weeks, but there was no follow up after it. Right? How are these people actually implementing these things? Do they even know how to do that? Right. And, you know, to your question of what made me finally decide is, you know, with the last property, you know, it again was another we, my very first day, I get there at nine o'clock, I think by 930, I'm in a cab to go to another hotel, because they're having one of their union negotiation meetings. So, and most of all, my interviews were by phone. So I hadn't even met any of these people, I don't even know how they what they look like or anything like that. But my very first day, usually I walk around, I want to meet people, you know, that type of stuff. But I'm in a, I made a cab down to another hotel, to meet the rest of the HR team, and then going into a negotiation meeting, which at that point, they were fairly well along. So they're getting to those points where it's really the meat of the contract. So the meetings are much more serious toned, those types of things. But that's also how I met a few of my own union stories. You know, that was their first experience with me, and I didn't talk or anything, I was just there to observe. But, you know, that was the introduction to that property is, you know, how does this union interact with HR people, and probably the most contentious time that you would is in negotiations, you know, that type of thing. So with that property, it was in, they've recently taken it over. So we had to redo it nines, and you know, that type of stuff. So that was my introduction, rather than that person, like you said, to be a resource for people and help people. My introduction was, and I think we were also implementing a new HRIS system. So transferring that which was fraught with problems. And so it was, it was kind of a perfect storm. But even after that settled down, even after we kind of got things under control, it still was about that compliance. And managers wanting to, you know, what can I do within the contract? How can I discipline people and not have aggrieved and lose the grievance? That type of thing, rather than how do we reintegrate this team, after they struck, get them back on the team create those relationships and those types of things, there really wasn't much time to do that. And at that point, with my mother's health, like, you know, what, if I'm ever going to do this, now's the time to do it. And I don't want to miss that time with her to be able to do it, and I just, I just knew it was never going to turn around. They had an outsource training function. So I knew those things, were never going to come back to me, where I could participate in it. And they had their system set up, you know, those types of things. So it's like, you know what, let's do it. I've been thinking about it for a while, you know, what, let's just watch off, walk off the end of the pier and do what I need to do, to be able to bring out my best self, right, rather than continue to go to work in a zombie state and go through the motions. And yeah, it was successful, but not my definition of success.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:02
Right. And that's, that's the most important thing. And I think that's, that's a powerful statement, a very powerful statement that you just made. Yeah. And they didn't get the best of me. Right, your definition of success. And I think that that's the the key statement there. Because there are many people that I look at, and I think are brilliant and wildly successful. And then I find out a month or two later, and they're like, Oh, I made a major move in my life, and I go what, but you were so great. And they're like, Yeah, I was, but I wasn't happy. I wasn't home for my children, or I wasn't. And you go oh, well, good for you. So good for you for for, you know, having enough emotional intelligence to be aware of that. So tell me now what is your you know, your you're a business owner you tell me now, a little bit about that. And I'm sorry, I is your mother's Oh,
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  20:00
No, she passed away about nine months after. Yeah, I'm very glad that I was here. I was here at the most important time so yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:08
And I am sorry to hear that. But it is, but it's wonderful that you had that time with her. And then you were able to do that. So, yeah, definitely.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  20:16
Yeah, definitely
 
Leighann Lovely  20:17
Tell me a little bit about, you know, what you're doing now. And, you know, how you're how you pivoted to, to, you know, run your own business and what you're doing?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  20:26
Sure, well, for me, you know, the difference between training and development is the follow through. So I kind of use the analogy is, you know, when you get your driver's license, you know, how to drive, but you're not an excellent driver. And I think leadership development is the same thing is, yeah, they got their leadership training, and they know, the policies and procedures, and, you know, all of those different types of things, they know how to schedule people, but it's, it's after that, that they actually develop their leadership skills. When they come across, I don't know how to address this employee, you know, their performance, you know, they're always, you know, reactionary, how can I make sure that they stay in the conversation, you know, we don't teach those things, and they don't follow through with those things. And so my, my business really is working with leaders to develop those leadership skills. I mean, you hear, uh, you know, you read all these books of excellent leaders and all these how tos, but then they're practicing somebody else. And they're, you know, kind of trying to be, you know, like an Elon Musk, or an Adam Grant or, and they're doing it their way. So again, they're still putting on an act. That's not truly them. Right. So you know, I do a lot of work with strengths management, some of the Clifton Strengths finders use an EQ tool, which marries well with that, because the EQ tool is behavioral, where the strengths or personality more is fixed. And taking a look at that to say, Okay, how do you bring your best self? But how do you use behaviors, because behaviors you can change, but that they're authentic? They may be new to you, you may never have had to do this. But how do you do that, so that it so that it worked well for you. So a lot of my work isn't necessarily like in your face emotional intelligence, like today, let's work on the composite of stress management. Unless that's the topic that they're bringing in. We talked about flexibility. And we talked about being an open minded and you know, how that can get in their way on either end of those spectrums. But the more and more I work with emotional intelligence, the more and more I know how it impacts and has a play in literally everything that we do. And particularly for leaders, just to help them understand what it is. Because most people I think when they think of emotional intelligence, they really think in terms of empathy, and empathy. They see sometimes as a weakness, because empathy, often they see is that's me giving up my responsibility and my authority. And it's not
 
Leighann Lovely  23:03
Or they think that if I give too much empathy to my employees, they're going to turn around and walk all over me. Right?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  23:11
Yeah. And interesting. I was on a, on a call yesterday, and we were talking about emotional empathy. And the other people on the call, really kind of thought it only came into play under stress. And you need to be aware of your emotions, so that you don't say the wrong thing, when under stress. And it's that limited belief that I think, holds leaders back. Because they only apply it during stress, or when they feel like they need to show empathy. And every other time, they're not really cognizant of what it means to attend to social responsibility, what it means to attend to interpersonal relationships, right? What how does it impact decision making? And really kind of taking a look at you know, say taking a look at their results to say okay, here's, you know, this is where you are, you know, where you see that helping you or hurting you, because with emotional intelligence, it's not so much about more, you know, it's not an attempt to get a score to 100 It's really more about what's needed. Now. It can because sometimes flexibility is benefit. And sometimes it's not, you know, so how do you be firm, but not, you know, Stonewall somebody, but how do you do that and maintain your relationship? Right, you know, when you have to tell somebody, no, we can't accommodate that request. How can you do that with empathy, maintain the relationship and, and have them understand, rather than coming in as that new manager who knows nothing else to do? The answer is no, because I said so. You can leave now. It's, you know, how do you how do you bring that all into play? Right, and we don't take we don't really don't teach people that?
 
Leighann Lovely  24:57
No, no, and it's a. Often it's hard to or and I'm actually thinking to myself, like I, I'm going back and thinking back to when I was my younger self, right? My younger self when I was a rigid, don't move anything on my desk because I'll have a meltdown of Who touched my things of you know, in in those younger days where I couldn't handle like, I had a boss, I had an amazing boss who recognized this in me. And so she would do the most horrific things to me. I thought they were horrific. But she was actually, she actually helped me a great deal. If somebody came in, and I moved anything on my desk or anything, so she actually made a point and I wouldn't go out to lunch, I had lunch every single day that I ate at my desk. And so she made a point to be like, Okay, today, you're going out to lunch? And I'm like, no, no, I can't go out to lunch I have this is my routine. And she's like, Nope, you're required. It's our environment. We're having a working lunch at this place. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Then she went as far as to say, Okay, I come in one day, and she goes, we're moving your desk somewhere else. And I'm like, what? And I mean, I literally almost had a breakdown, like, I can't do this. Well, she started doing it on a regular basis to me. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding, like, but it actually started to get me comfortable with the fact that change happens, right? So now, years later, as I've you know, kind of been in some management roles. It's hard for, it's hard for somebody to come in, when you when you're all of a sudden hit with that. Oh, my gosh, I'm in a situation where I have to say no to somebody I have to roll with, you know, I have to roll with this. At that moment, when you're in that moment, you kind of go wait a second, how do I how do I handle this? And and you you do you have to pull back from? You have to take that breath that moment and go okay, wait, I can't just simply say, No, I have to give them a why I have to give them an understanding. Otherwise, you come off as being that on empathetic, unemotional on. But you also, what I found is that it's the same with a four year old and I have a four year old that if I just say no to her, it's about mama. But Mama, but Mom, it's the same thing. And I'm not I'm not comparing, you know? Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. But it is, if you have a no, but here's why. Or, yes, if it can be done this way, or that. That's what every human needs and thrives for. Right? It's a simple explanation as to know, but we can do this, right. And I was kind of a fumbled example. And the reason I gave the example of the manager who kept doing that, to me, was because she recognized my weakness. And she helped me overcome that without me even realizing to the point where I was like, Okay, I don't really care where I said anymore. And that was over the series of a couple of years. Sure. And now, I'm able to roll with that stuff, I'm able to not saying that I'm a great leader, or a great manager, by any means, you know, we've got a long ways to go with that. But by having those people who are constantly pushing you, who are constantly, you know, helping you along, that it's an amazing thing to have.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  28:19
Sure. And that, you know, just kind of brings up for me the importance of transparency. And, and I think that's, that's something that people kept asking for, is we want you to be transparent. And again, I think that that concept is, I don't know if it's misunderstood, or not clearly understood. Because the transparency really comes in and to just use your examples of, you know, of even a four year old and you know, the people is helping them understand what went into the decision. So, you know, you don't necessarily need to get into all of the whys if you needed to lay somebody off, because that's gonna freak people out, that the company is losing money, and, you know, that type of stuff, but be able to let them know, you know, what came into this decision? And why were they impacted and got a master's from MSU. It's not Michigan State, it's an Israeli state, but we've got a master's and making stuff up. I think, depending on the client, that language is a little bit more colorful. But we all make stuff up. And when people don't have the information, we make up our own stories. So we make up a story that they don't like me, that's why they laid me off, right? And they don't like me, because I'm friends with the boss or I knew or, you know, for whatever reason, and then you have to deal with that. That's right. No, that's not this was a business decision. But if you do that upfront, it does a couple things. It helps control the MSU but it also keeps them out of their fear based brain. And because when you're in that amygdala Some scientists say you literally cannot hear. So if you've ever been just like so angry or so fearful, you really, you've got tunnel vision. And you don't see anybody reaching out to help you or anything like that. And when we can have honest conversations with people, even if they're uncomfortable, it keeps them in that executive brain where they can still hear, understand, comprehend, it doesn't mean that they agree, it doesn't mean that you get hug at the end of that conversation. But at least they don't hopefully feel that it's personal. Right, and that it's arbitrary. You know, it helps them walk out of there feeling like they were respected? Because it's not no, because I told you, because I said, so. It's no, and these are some of the reasons why. And that's where managers struggle to because they think transparency is let's open it, all of it. And let me show you the p&l and, you know, all of those types of and that's not what it is,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:01
Well, there's different levels of transparency, depending on the on what we're, we're talking about, you know, transparency of how the company is doing financially transparency of, of a decision that's being made in internally transport. I mean, there's definitely different levels of that. But right, you're, I mean, I've been told, by numerous people that the brain fills in what it doesn't understand, right? I mean, if you're, if you're given only half the truth, the brain will fill in what it believes the rest of the truth is. Sure. And that's where you get gossip, all of a sudden, you've got rumors flying around, and it's only half or partial truth. But there is a little string of the truth in it. So it's just enough believable that it spreads like wildflower fire. So it's so if you just go Come come out with here's why we made a decision. Here's why we're doing this. Here's why. It's so much easier to squash rumors from going around. Because then all of a sudden, if you're given the, I guess, quote unquote, boring, real explanation, it's less likely that people are gonna go, Well, let me tell you what happened. Because it's not as interesting. Your brain all of a sudden, fills in a much more colorful story usually.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  32:18
Yeah, yeah. So for your leader who was testing you is what would have been different had, she said, You know what, I see this as a challenge for you. And as you grow your career, it's going to be important that you get comfortable with change. And so I'm not going to tell you, it's gonna be like a fire drill. But I'm gonna push you a little bit. You know, you may say, it would still have been uncomfortable, but at least you would have understood in the moment, oh, this is what's happening. I still don't like it. But I get it.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:46
And it did kind of become a joke. I came in one day, and I told her that I was going to superglue my chair to the floor so that she couldn't move my stuff. I mean, it did end up becoming, you know, hurt mental joke of Leon can't handle change, which, again, in my early 20, I was incapable of handling change. And eventually, it got to the point where I was like, Okay, I just, I'm gonna have to roll with this, I'm gonna have to deal with it. And it did. It helped me immensely. Now, I that I no longer have any problem with that. You know, this was I think it was like 2324 at the time. And she was an amazing boss, an amazing boss. She was also very young in her career. Her name was Carol, and I won't say anything else. And if she listens to this, I'm sure she will remember who she is. Sure, but yeah, so All right. So beyond, you know, beyond that. You You do a lot of coaching, you are also a member of so you are also a member? Of better up? Yes. So tell me a little bit about that.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  33:55
Better up has been, for me a wonderful experience, because it's exposed me to individual clients that I wouldn't have had access to before. So they contract with an organization. And then the members as we call them, rather than clients, they go onto a platform, they read three profiles and select a coach. So I've had been able to work with, with people that are in multinational organizations. I've one that's now in bliss, she's in Ireland, and now she's in Europe, people in Mexico, people from industries that I typically I probably would not have thought to engage, because because of my service industry background, that's 10 that tends to be where I you know, look for clients. But it's been such a great way to to meet with people from all these different industries and again, like the hospitality, they have the same challenges that my leaders did confidence. How do I talk to my boss, but I said Today's topic, man, I don't think I can do this, how? Man, they promoted me, and I'm not sure I can do this. You know, those types of things without, you know, for this model without me needing to do marketing, so I just they pick me and we just jump right into the coaching. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so you know that as a business person, you know, you know, that takes a lot off of me to then not have to find them and I can do what I enjoy most and where I think I have an impact on them. So it's been, you know, for me, it's been an enjoyable experience. And in really being able to touch so many different lives, and have an impact on them, really has been, I think beneficial for them. Because there's some clients that have rehabbed and you know, when the end of the contract, they talked with their employer, and we're able to kind of extend the engagement, you know, those types of things, but to see their growth, and where they came from, and what they were able to handle. Because I truly believe having an outside source is really helpful for employees. Because there I never talked with their manager, there's there's no interaction. So there's no expectation, and there's no, I guess, tie in with the organization, I don't get tied into the politics or into the drama, those types of things. I'm, I'm totally detached from all of that. So we can have some truly honest conversations and dig deep. And the member knows it's never going to come back. That's there's not a chance of anything like that.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:38
And that's great. That's the way that that's the way that should be. So is the organization requesting you or is the individual requesting you the individual. Okay, well, that's, that's awesome. So you're also the CEO of bias, correct, that that's more recent, that you've engaged in that.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  36:58
Yeah, just, you know, for the for the MPP piece. Because that, you know, again, that empathy piece, really is that misunderstood that it only comes into play when somebody's upset. But I also think empathy is important when somebody is celebrating something is that you truly understand why somebody is so excited about this opportunity. And do it genuinely, Britain, rather than, you know, congratulations on getting promoted, or congratulations, you're having a baby is empathy, I think is is so critical. But we only talk about it when somebody's upset. And I'm sorry that you feel that way. How can I make it better? Sometimes empathy is really just listening and letting somebody get it off their chest. And it's not about solving a problem. Right? It's about sitting there with them by their side. You're not in this alone. Okay,
 
Leighann Lovely  37:54
What does that phrase were the quote, I am not your problem to solve. There. It goes on more than that. But and that's, that's so true is there are times I'll and I talked about my dad a lot. Because my dad is my best friend. He's my greatest mentor. He's my sounding board. He's, you know, anyways, but there are times where I will call him and just rant about my day. And he was a manager for many, many years. And sometimes he'll he'll listen to me, he's my empathetic ear, and he'll go, do you want me to give you advice? Or do you just need an empathetic ear? I'm like, yep, just an empathetic ear. Yeah. Like, oh, okay, I feel better. I think so. And it's a safe place, right? It's not, you know, I'm not calling my boss and, boy, I better not be calling my boss. If I'm, you know, complaining, no, I don't actually complain about my boss. He's actually a great boss. But, you know, and that's, that's what it's about. That's sometimes he's also the one who taught me that the most important things in life, birth, death. Those are I mean, those are two of the most important things. In you know, no matter what, if somebody is dealing with the death in their family, if somebody is dealing with a birth in their family, you know, there are certain things in life that that trumps everything else, right. And it's not always tragedy. Sometimes it's its birth, sometimes it's the celebration of something and we need as managers as employers as to understand that I have one of my my partners that work. My employees that just recently she says why she's going on vacation. And she asked me, she says, Do you think I can work from home tomorrow? And I said, No, I really need you in the office. She's still training. She's brand new. So they really need you in the office tomorrow. She's Yeah, but I'm going to be working all night tonight. And I said, Wait, wait, what do you mean, you're going to be working? I said, when you leave here at the office, why are you working? Well, I've got these deadlines I have to meet. I said, your training deadlines? She's yeah, I've got to make sure that I get the I said, No. I said, when you leave here, you're supposed to go home. And be you. Do you spend time with your husband? I said, if you have training deadlines, you do those here at the office? You're paid to? You're paid to do your training. Yeah. You know, and, and I wasn't hearing her. And it took me until all of a sudden, she's like, well, you know, I, I was not understanding that she thought she had to go home and do her trainings. Okay. And all of a sudden, I was like, What, wait a second, why are you? You know? So sometimes it's a matter to have a manager of Wait a second. What are you talking about? You're going to be working into the all hours of the night to get your training done? What do you do? You know, anyways,
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  41:03
While I'm seeing the whole picture, you know, because, you know, we really, the best workplaces allow people to bring their entire self. So a lot of managers will say, check your emotions at the door. That is physically not possible. No, it just isn't. You know, you know, you know, hopefully they don't interfere, but we need to be able to help people, because that also means those good things, that also means in them not telling somebody, Hey, I got engaged this weekend. Don't leave your emotions at the door. Right? And that doesn't make sense.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:31
Oh my gosh, my, the company that, you know, I work at we, we laugh, we cry. We my boss pulled me aside to be like, Hey, you, you okay, I know that you had a rough week, I know that your power was out for 24 hours. And you had a tree fall on your I was a mess. Yeah. And that's the way for that. Right there. That's the way that every company should be. Yeah. All right. You okay? Do you need? Do you need Yeah, day off to take care of your personal stuff.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  42:00
Yeah. And more than once, you know, because as you were talking about grief, and I think, culturally, we're not quite sure how to handle grief, we think three days should be enough. And you come back as your happy old self. And we don't know how to continue to be empathetic as people process their grief. Or say the, you know, the stress and the happiness of a newborn or a marriage is, you know, even after that time, Thanks, Colin, you know, and just remember that they are a whole person. And none of life is in a discrete timeframe. It's, it's a, you know, it's a spectrum that we experience. And I think it's the best leaders that understand that and realize how important that is. And how it doesn't really take all that much time.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:50
I just got a puppy. And I don't, for all you people, individuals, people out there who who've experienced having a puppy, it's like having a baby that bites you really hard. And I'm going through a very wide range of emotions up and down. And, you know, I also have a four year old so I, my, my boss sees the, you know, the bite marks all over my hands. So even just having that come into your life, all of the sudden, you're like, oh, my gosh, dogs keeping me up at night barking all night long, like, Yeah, any, it doesn't matter what life is messy. And if you're not an employer, allowing you to be yourself at work, and understand that life is going to get messy. You're you're going to miss out on great employees, because there are companies that are willing to understand that Yep, life happens if you're coming to my company, and you're producing and you're doing a great job. Hey, we'll roll we'll roll with you. Obviously, if you're, you know, got drama every single week, there's an issue but sure, you know, life happens all over the place all the time. Right. Yeah. But you know, people that are able to manage that get their job done, do it well, and still have production, you know, and a life and
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  44:19
Yeah, but think about what happens to that employee when they're not seen as a whole person. Right. And so now, I mean, some people call it wearing a mask. Some people may call it hiding. Eventually that weight wears them down, right? You just can't do it anymore.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:34
The stress of that is a goal. So I've spoken with individuals, not I haven't spoken with individuals but I spoken with Denise Shannon's I go back to a conversation with her she is the de shamans and Chelsea booty because they run a not for profit organization called good friend Inc. and they bring in information out to the world about neurodiverse individuals, okay, and one of the number one things that they talk about is how hard it is for somebody who is on the spectrum or a neurodiverse individual to go and work. If, you know, at a company, if there are not special accommodations, special accommodations set up for that individual, because they process information differently. And so part of that is that it is exhausting for some individuals. And I'm not just speaking to neurodiverse, it is exhausting for some individuals, to have to constantly pretend to be something that they're not, or constantly have to shape themselves or try to fit themselves into an environment that is uncomfortable. And I bring up, you know, Denise, and Chelsea, because they talk about neurodiverse individuals constantly trying to mold themselves into what society believes to be the norm. Right? Nobody should have to do that. It's, it's completely emotionally and physically exhausting, we should all have the right to be able to be who we are all the time. And if people out there can't be that because they're assholes, well, they're going to be found out anyways. Right? And, and the good people who want to go to work, do their job, want to be able to go home, and be with their family and be happy. Those are the ones who are going to rise to the top and shine. And I went on a complete and total rant.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  46:32
No, but I think it brings up a good point. Because yes, it is I think it's more obvious with people that are neurodivergent. But I think the best leaders already do that. But in, you know, maybe a less dramatic way. You know, so for me, you know, with the housekeeping background, you know, the the best housekeepers knew how this housekeeper liked to have her cart. And so they made sure that you know, that I happened, or, you know, let's, you know, let's put her she doesn't like to be moved around. So we don't need to move her. Let's do that. Because, you know, like you with that change. It kind of upset the day and she's not as productive. And she doesn't want to go home feeling unproductive. But I think the best leaders already understand that, that that that individualization, because it could be, you know, if you celebrate with birthday cakes that you get the flavor that that person likes, rather than just some random cake that you picked up at the grocery store. How much meaning would that flavor have to that person? Oh, you remember that? I had like, you know, marble cake versus, you know, pull chocolate. Or you remember that I like cheesecake instead of, you know, a regular cake. That can be such a nonverbal expression of appreciation and respect. That, that counts a lot. For things like retention engagement. You see me you hear me? And it takes nothing to do that.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:01
Yeah, absolutely. The little things, the little things are the ones that impact people in such a profound way often. So, alright, we are coming to time. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. Okay, if you could go back to your younger self and give advice to your younger self, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  48:27
It's interesting, and I'll pick this age for a reason. Around 30. Because I think around 30, I was just having a conversation with a niece who's turning 30. She said, Why do you think the 30s are better? You know? And I said, because I think we find our voice then. And we've worked through a lot of the expectations and figured out where do we really want to be, and where we don't want to be those types of things. But you have to go through those experiences to know what you don't want, and where you do want to be. And I think I would tell myself to to listen and act on my intuition. Rather than, you know, kind of say, that's never gonna work. Or I can't do that. Or no, I just need to toe the line. That next job, that's going to be the perfect one. I think I would have had myself listen more closely. And, and I may still have stepped away when I did. But I think I would have better directed my career and probably would not have taken the same job over and over again, at different places. Maybe I would have gotten into a training function where I would have been more fulfilled and and satisfied and still being able to do my best work rather than because of compliance work I can do. You know, it comes easily. It's not what I enjoy, but I can get it done and so people appreciated that and so I got recognized for that. But it wasn't what felt my soul, you know, fed my soul But when you get that recognition, and those accolades, that feels good, but not good enough, after a while, it just wasn't good enough.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:07
You are very similar to the advice, the age that I would give myself advice, because you're you're really right. You. I think 30 is definitely the age where people find that voice because you're your 20s is truly that experimental of what do I want to be when I grow up? Where do I want to be? What company do I want to work for? And you learn so much in that 20 to 30 year span of 10 years of, of really gathering as much knowledge as you can you believe that you know, everything? Oh, sure. Yeah. It isn't until you all of a sudden look back and go, Wow, I really did not know very much. Yeah. But that's great. That's awesome. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  50:58
Probably the easiest way is find me on LinkedIn, connect with me. You know, I post quite frequently on there, and I try to interact with people on there. And then email at Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com is another way to get a hold of me. But yeah, LinkedIn is where I spent a good deal of my time creating relationships and posting content and just helping people. Just to give them little tidbits here and there.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:22
Perfect. Well, Paul, I really appreciate again, you taking the time to come on and talk with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
 
Paula Rauenbuehler  51:29
Yeah, thank you. No, it's been a nice experience.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:31
Thank you. Yes. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin - Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com
 
E-mail - Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com
 
Website - leadingupcoach.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, leaders, employees, understand, training, compliance, manager, hr, conversation, type, empathy, day, hear, clients, jamaica, life, company, helping, sudden, individuals

Episode 12 - Dr. Jim Kanichirayil - Understanding People

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil is a student of people, with his Doctor of Education in Ethical Organizational Leadership. Jim has built, managed, and led teams, with most of his experience focusing on understanding why people join and leave companies. He also has a podcast called Cascading Leadership, which you should check out! This is a conversation you should check out, Dr. Jim is not only brilliant he is a fun interview and an educated one at that.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If your are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Jim Kanichirayil is a full out talent strategy nerd. Jim's been in the staffing and or technology space, where the biggest chunk of his career. Typically he's helping clients solve end to end talent strategy problems either through technology, service or coaching. He spent most of his professional life trying to understand why people join and leave organizations and taking those learnings and helping organizations become more effective in attracting and retaining their people. His passion for talent led him to complete his doctoral research in organizational leadership on the topic of leadership style and leadership training, and its influence on employee retention and turnover is not pure theory, though. He's taken the knowledge and applied it to start up accelerating growth in revenue organizations. He's worked on New Project launches in tech and then built an IT staffing organization from zero clients and zero revenue to an $8 million organic growth business. He's currently at circa the leading end to end talent strategy solution in the marketplace. It makes so excited to have this conversation with Dr. Jim.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:27
Dr. Jim, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. So thank you.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  02:34
Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me on Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:37
So why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about you in your background? And yeah, go ahead.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  02:45
Sure. Well, first off, I do terrible, Dr. Evil and impression. So the details of my life are quite inconsequential. So that's that's all the impressions that you'll get. But in terms of kind of who I am, and then what I'm about and all that good stuff. I'm currently one of the management leads at circa we are an end to end talent strategy solution, we actually happen to be one of the only ones that take a holistic approach to an organizational talent strategy, leveraging technology to help you build diverse, elite teams. And you know, we can we can talk about that at some point. But like, when you're thinking about, or when I'm thinking about, you know, my career in general, you know, I'm a huge talent nerd. And specifically in in all areas of talent strategy is really my wheelhouse. I've basically built my brand and my career around that topic. And if you look at the last, I don't know, 15 years or so most of my career has been spent in or around the talent space, whether it's acquisition, whether it's development, whether it's building technology, efficiencies for organizations in in talent acquisition, building, recruitment organizations. So there's this deep thread of my career, that's, that's talent focused. And, you know, a lot of people will throw around the term nerd about all sorts of things. But, you know, for the people that know me, I am a bit extra. So I actually completed this was several years back, but I'm so passionate about this stuff that my doctoral research was actually on why people join and leave organizations and more specifically, what role leadership style and leadership training has on employee retention and turnover. So that's the long and short of kind of what I'm about and where I've operated. Hope that helps.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:47
Yeah, absolutely. And you and I have, you know, a couple of things in common. I'm a complete HR geek, I use the term nerd I use geek I, I love this stuff. I I love talking about this stuff, why this is why it's a perfect match to have you come on and talk with me. But you and I crossed paths. What many years ago when I had actually what I believe, applied and interviewed at an organization that you were working at at that time, and, you know, it wasn't the right fit for me, for you, whatever, doesn't matter. And now we find ourselves yet again, kind of in the same space, where you now have a podcast, I have a podcast, and we're kind of talking about the same things, you know, culture, building this, you know, employee retention. So tell me a little bit about your podcast, what led you to that?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  05:44
So, I mean, I think, one of the things and and I'll put it in terms of common problems that sales professionals deal with, so you know, everybody was encountering all sorts of stuff during the pandemic era. And at that time, during the, the period of lockdowns, one of the things that I think everybody observed was, it's becoming more and more difficult to get in front of people in any sort of meaningful way. You know, I noticed, you know, there's only so much calling and emailing that you can do to get people to respond. So you need to be approaching that entire effort differently. And one of the things that that that comes up and I actually built an entire practice that's that's focused on it was, you know, if if you want to take a long term view, into your network, and your relationships, well, you have to apply some long term plays. Fundamentally, from a sales perspective, you have to get people to know like, and trust you before you can advance any sort of selling conversation, right? So when email response rates, call response rates all went down, I started thinking about, well, what are some of the other tools in my arsenal that I can leverage to get in front of people, and I've always written, I've always, you know, shared out, you know, content, and that sort of stuff. And this was just another way for me to, you know, potentially advance it. But I think the big trigger point was, when I had actually left staffing and gone into another organization, this was an organization that was focused on, really, a services play into the market. And in order for people to actually understand the role that you play in this space, and it was a coaching organization, you really have to build rapport, trust and credibility in your audience. And I was making a push that, hey, our entire sales effort is highly transactional. And for this sort of service, you can't sell the service, like you sell tacos, you can't just message random people and say, hey, you know, spend a boatload of money with us, because we're asking you to the world doesn't buy that way, the world doesn't work that way. So we got to do something different. And that's lean into content as part of our demand generation strategy. So my marketing counterpart, and I had actually built out, you know, an 18 month roadmap with a week to week cadence that was broken down into the day in terms of what sales and marketing activities look like, but it didn't get any traction. So I just kind of went rogue and said, okay, all right. So if we're not going to apply company resources to get in front of the people that we need to get in front of and and engage them in meaningful conversation. I'll just go rogue, and Google the hell out of what I need to do well and figure it out. And that's the, the genesis of the podcast, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:42
And I think that a lot of people felt those pains of during, during the pandemic of I'm dialing the way that I've always done it, and I'm getting, I'm getting nowhere. So the the people who were had an understanding of what was happening during those times pivoted the proper way. It's the people who were struggling to get it and push that content in a different way that are still struggling to this day, even though now people are starting to pick up the phones again, a little bit. There's still people who are in Wait, I don't have to pick up the phone and I can still run my business. And they're still not picking up the phones. It's but a lot of companies started to pivot and figure out that we need to push our content a different way. And the world has decided that in order to make a decision a buying decision, a everything that you said there's there's has to be a foundation of a relationship. I was talking to somebody the other day and I said hey, when somebody calls you and you don't know the number, do you pick up the phone? No, not anymore. I mean, I I have a cell phone that now that actually tells me scam likely that's what it says on your phone. Are you going to answer this? You know, it's So the only other way to reach a proper audience, and then actually build up exactly what you said, which is that, you know, the rapport, the the ability to show them. Yeah, I know what I'm talking about, I have the knowledge there, I am the expert in my field. So awesome. That's great. You, you were one of the smart ones who pivoted with the times and said, Hey, I'm gonna push the content out. So that's excellent. That's, that's absolutely amazing. So tell me a little bit more about, you know, what, what is the content?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  10:34
So, Yeah. So the, the genesis of the show, or the origin of the show was just pure need. But my co host and I, Lawrence Brown, we've known each other for, you know, 20, some odd years. And we've, we're a couple of Gen Xers. So we're old. And we're not supposed to be like, aware of all of this newfangled technology, or whatever. And, you know, for those listening, I'm probably going to tell you to get off my lawn at some point, too. But the, you know, we've had this conversation for years about, hey, you know, there's so much stuff that we were indoctrinated on throughout our career, you know, work hard, be a high achiever outperform, and you'll naturally get recognized and rise to the top. And that's true to an extent. But that has its limits. So we kind of we kind of benefited a lot of our leadership throughout the years. And, you know, our conversation was our ongoing conversation, the Lawrence and I had was, wouldn't have been, wouldn't it have been great if we had sort of a cliff notes version? That's an old person reference right there. That's these little books that would give you like the cheat sheets of like these big ass novels that you didn't want to read when you were in school. That's what a cliff notes is. That's like old people, Google for those listening. So we, you know, when it it'd been great if we had a cliff notes, career hack, that allowed people like us to move their careers further faster. And that was really the why of cascading leadership. We wanted to talk to women, people of color, immigrants, who have risen to senior leadership, and have them share their stories of how they got to where they were, so that we can actually democratize that knowledge and push that out into the world so other professionals can actually move their careers faster. Instead of like grinding like a schlub for 20 some odd years without getting any recognition for it, and then wondering, well, crap, all these people are getting promoted before me and I'm outperforming them, what's the deal? So that's really the the ethos of the show. So when we look at, you know, we're getting close to launching season two, when we look at what are the areas that we play in, we have a heavy theme of our show, that is sales effectiveness, marketing, effectiveness, HR effectiveness, organizational effectiveness, and then we'll do other nerdy stuff like book reviews and whatnot. But, you know, we've had author spotlights where we've had published authors come on the show, Sue Hynek was one of the more recent ones that we've had. So it's, it's really interesting. And for me, I'm nosy. So I like talking to people and finding out getting all up in their business. That's totally off brand. But, you know, I it's, it's an outlet for me to, you know, really understand people at a personal level, and, and build a stronger overall network versus, you know, 5000 people who barely interact with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:43
Right, and most podcasters, I mean, I know me, mine is pretty much 95% curiosity. And I guess the other 5% is, Hey, maybe I can entertain some people and get some clients. While maybe it's more on the client side of, you know, hey, maybe somebody can see me as the expert and say, Hey, how can she help me in the area of my business as well? But, I mean, most of my most of the time, I'm, I'm a true geek, I truly have the curiosity. I truly am interested in the people that I talk with. I mean, how could you How could you sit, you know, do this all the time? If you're not if you don't truly have that curiosity? Right.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  14:27
Yeah, I mean, the the intellectual curiosity bit is important, and I don't think you should necessarily shy away from the whole client acquisition aspect of it, because think about it. It depends on how you're leveraging it. And this was one of the big problems that I had with staffing because staffing as an industry talks about how their relationship business but they actually treat people both internally and externally as disposable. Like if you're not hitting some metric, or if you're not converting clients fast enough, you're out out the door. And when you think about it from a personal professional brand perspective, your network is your client base for life. So if you're taking a long view, they might not be a customer now, but they might be a customer or referral source at some point down the road. So what are you doing today? To invest in that relationship? And that's something that very few staffing organizations, you know, really pay attention to. It's all about, you know, Hey, your results, aren't there, email and call harder. All right. That's effective. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  15:34
You're right. And there are in historically, staffing companies are transactional based businesses. Yeah, there are a few companies out there that are the diamonds in the rough, me being a very relationship based person. And here's another statistic that's that's, there are feet, how many staffing agencies out there have a podcast?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  15:59
I don't think there's any that I'm, that officially have a podcast, I have people like you or me that might be running around rogue, but then we're always probably dealing with the question of well, how is that impacting the business?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:10
Right, and my entire philosophy, and the reason that I have left companies and turned down positions, is because I am not a transactional based seller. I have I build relationships, I create relationships. And I have now come in, you know, to people that I have known 15 years ago and said, Oh, it's great to see you again, because of the fact that I build those relationships. It's extremely important. And I want to talk to you a little bit more about your current role and how that how your philosophy on that relationship building. And if that philosophy and your relationship building ties into where you're currently at?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  16:55
Well, I mean, the the relationship focus in terms of how I approach the marketplace has always been consistent across, you know, all sorts of different roles in my career. It was the case even when I was early in my career and worked at Enterprise across two divisions, it was even though it was a highly transactional b2c business, I focused on the experience and building that customer for life. And that's, that's, that's a different mentality. You can approach the world as if you're engaging with it with the intent of building a customer for life in multiple different capacities, or you can look at it as hey, I'm, I'm approaching the world, and I'm engaging the world from the perspective of this as a customer. And they're not really any different from any other customer, at any other point that I might be in my career. So this isn't new, the relationship focus isn't new for me. I think when you're looking at having that relationship mindset, the current state of how that should be applied, you should have a pretty strong visibility or pulse, or cents into how are customers buying today. And that's critical. The reason why it's critical is we've all been there. People aren't responding to emails, people aren't responding to phone calls. So the solution can't be, let's do those things harder. Like I've said, I've said it before. And now the question is, well, why are those mechanisms Not, not not yielding the results? Well, it could be one of two things it could be both of them are related to whoever sending one, your messaging could be complete crap. And you could be just throwing out a bunch of stuff that nobody cares about, that's either focused on you or your company, that doesn't work. Or you don't have the right orientation and have a sense in how people are buying. So your customers. The experience that a customer has, its income, incredibly noisy. Steve watt is the Director of Marketing at seismic and he talks about it and he actually lays it out really effectively when he's talking about the buyers world. They have 800 people that are reaching out to him on a day to day basis, telling them about how their solution is the best thing since sliced bread. Nobody cares. This is why your your three paragraph emails that you send on regular email or LinkedIn never get responses. Because they don't know you, they don't like you. They don't trust you. There's no relationship there. And then you're acting as if you're like God's gift to whatever agenda that your customer is trying to pursue. So you have that
 
Leighann Lovely  19:38
Delete. It's an immediate, here's the three paragraphs Delete.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  19:42
Yep. So you know when you look at that relationship, focus your relationship focus should be particularly zoned in on. You know, you should have a good understanding of the problems that you solve, but your messaging and your outreach should be really focused on understanding where your customer is at in a given point in time. And you can approach it a couple of different ways. If you're just spraying and praying and you know, Steve calls it pitch slapping everybody. Well, your hope is that you get the 3% of the marketplace that might be in a position to buy right now. And, you know, I know the kids say it this way, that's dumb AF, because you're spending all of your effort to capture 3% of the marketplace and have a transactional thing that serves your purpose, which is driving your commission check. Does it make more sense to to find the 3%? Or does it make more sense for you to outreach in a way where you're interested in capturing 100% of the market that might be a customer for you at some point in the future? What makes more sense? So, you know, that that is the critical question that people have to answer. And sellers have to answer when they're going out in the world. Who do you want to be as a seller? Do you want to be that greasy person that, you know, is just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks? Or do you are you really committed to establishing relationships in an authentic way?
 
Leighann Lovely  21:22
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting that you say that, because the things that are coming to my mind that the moment that I became wildly successful at being able to, and I hate the word sell to my customers to be able to close business down, I mean, and it and that's what I mean, it is and be able to all of a sudden, be successful, make those, you know, commission checks come in, it was when I stopped being selfish, stopped, going in going, I'm gonna get this person to buy for me, it was when I started going in and just saying, Hey, today, I'm not going to sell today, I'm going to learn something about this person. And I'm going to walk out fully understanding everything I can about this person and their company. After I started taking that mentality, it was all of a sudden, instead of trying to sell to them, I just became the expert on them. And if I couldn't get them to buy from me today, they became somebody I knew. And all of a sudden, they were sending me referrals, they liked me, they just simply like to I was they enjoyed the time that they spent with me. And I found that they were telling me everything about themselves and everything about their business. And we I've now made friends, I have people who originally were prospects that have become friends that have become clients that have become referral sources. And this is a book of business, or a book that I have built up over years and years, that people that I've known now for 15 years that come back to me and say, Oh, Leanna, I've got a great referral for you. Now, that was, like I said, this is 15 years in the running where, you know, since I've been in the business, and and when I explained, you explain this so much better. The way that I explained it to people was when I finally lost my, when I finally got rid of my pride, of coming back to the office thing, I got one I sold one. Instead of walking in thinking I'm going to do that I started walking in saying, Hey, I had a really great conversation with a company today. And somewhere down the line, I'm probably going to work with that person.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  23:31
And that's, you know, I think that I think the caveat, or at least the addendum that I would I would throw into that. Having a focus on what relationships did you build today, that's critical. But I think when you when you look at, you know, the mindset that you need to be in, to orient yourself the right way the focus shouldn't be in, in, listen. But let's be real here, I'm not going to I'm not going to like kneecap anybody there and say, Hey, we should be ashamed of selling. Let's let's let's take a look at the world. The entire business world is either in sales, or in service to sales. So at some point business is being done, because if it wasn't, the lights wouldn't be on. So I don't I don't shy away from the selling aspect of it. And I want to say that out loud. But people buy from people who they know like and trust. So the mindset and Stephen Covey talks about this, it's really applicable to sellers is your number one responsibility is to understand before trying to be understood, seek to understand before trying to be understood. And that's how you should be thinking from an orientation perspective in terms of how you go out in the world to really build those authentic relationships. And that's critical because it's going to have downstream impact that mindset is going to Have downstream impact on everything that you do from your talk tracks, to your emails, to how you engage on socials, all of that sort of stuff. And it's with the intent of capturing 100% of the marketplace into your network versus cat, like throwing stuff against the wall and hoping you fall into the 3% that might be interested at this given point in time. So when you're looking at a what is my mindset need to be? It's it's seeking to serve seeking to solve seeking to understand. And I would say this is aspirational. But you should care more about the initiative that your buyer is trying to drive than your own commission check. So the closer that you are to being that person that can give them a recommendation, understand their situation, and then give them the recommendation to somebody else that might actually solve it better than you. That's really the space that you want to occupy because that's what's necessary for you to earn that business for life, versus being like everybody else who's coming in and talking about their solution as the absolute best thing in the marketplace. Because Newsflash, nobody's the absolute best in the solution for everything. So stop trying to be a Swiss army knife, which does like a crappy job of like, 20 different things, and just be excellent at the one thing that you saw that
 
Leighann Lovely  26:19
Yeah, that's a great analogy. That and Swiss Army knives kind of suck. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Great analogy. So I, the statement that rings in my head constantly is that I have worked at companies and my husband will tell you all the time, he goes, God, I hate salespeople. And like, you know, honey, you're married to a salesperson, right? And he's like, Yeah, well, I don't hate you. And I'm like, Well, God, I love to hot, we're married. Sale sales, the sales life had this cycle that, at least for me, it has drastically changed it, it is no longer the and I and I use this term lovingly to all of you car salesmen out there. But it is no longer the car salesman sales. And if you're still doing it that way, you're not going to last long in the sales world. It is truly the relationship in order to be successful long term in any role, set it up numerous times. Now, it is a relationship based selling. But what I would love to learn a little bit more about you is that you you're an advocate for training, retention, you know, all of that you went to school for understanding, you know, that at organizations, and I would love to have you talk a little bit about that. Are you open to, you know, telling me a little bit more about the coaching aspects of in what what you've done with that?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  27:49
I mean, that's,  a long runway. Yeah, I mean, I think I think in general terms, I think in general terms, when you're when you're looking at being effective from a talent, strategy, perspective, and, and really being tight across it, you know, you have all of these different elements in the talent strategy, roadmap or continue, you have talent, traction, you have onboarding, you have development, you have upskilling, rescaling and you have retention, and then you know, on the back end of it, you might have an exiting process. So when you look at that entire roadmap, if if you're looking at what are the biggest things that impact your bottom line, it's, it's not just your ability to attract talent, but it's your ability to retain it. And there's a lot of different factors that influence talent retention. I mean, obviously, one of the biggest factors is, you know, who is the leader of the group that you're hired into? Because when you look at the biggest reasons why people leave organizations, high on that list is, you know, manager alignment. They play the biggest role. But there's other elements that play into a stay or leave decision as well, you know, you have the diversity component of the organization itself. If I'm in an organization, and I don't see people like me, not at not just at the peer level, but at all levels of the organization, that's going to impact my stickiness to the organization. So that's one aspect. But diversity is different from inclusion and equity. So the in belonging, not only do you have to have, you know, a representative population in your organization, but you have to make sure that you're being intentional in making all of those groups feel like they belong. And again, that ties to does my organization look, the way that I look at all levels of the organization. So I'm a brown guy, so you know, if I don't see if I only see brown, brown people at the individual contributor level and then I look Get my career progression and see that, you know, the rest of the organization is pretty monochromatic. Well, I'm going to, at some point come to the realization that there is no path here for me, I might not ask. And it's actually when you're talking about underrepresented groups, they're actually the most likely to not ask and not advocate, that was one of the reasons why we actually launched cascading leadership was to, you know, kind of short circuit that tendency and and have people take more agency in their life. So when you're looking at a talent strategy, in general talent retention, in particular, it's not enough for you to constantly operate on the attraction spectrum, you have to have solutions that, you know, once somebody is in your doors, you have to have coaching and training at the manager level, you have to have upskilling and rescaling as as a component of your talent strategy solution. And you certainly need to make sure that you're being intentional in terms of creating an environment where people feel like they belong, because you can have a diverse workforce, but have an organizational culture that is toxic to diversity, either overtly or covertly. And you're going to stay in that in that talent attraction hamster wheel is what I talked about
 
Leighann Lovely  31:23
What you just said that is, and I have spoken with, you know, I've spoken with other guests this season, as I've been, you know, recording season two, and it is really you made a such a valid point. Because I've spoken with, you know, diversity, inclusion and actual trainers who own she owns her own business. And that's which, that's all she does. She does. She does coaching and training. And she's a speaker about, you know, diversity, inclusion and equity. I have spoken with a couple of people this season and something that I guess I they may have said it and it kind of went over my head sometimes during a conversation, there's so much that is said but something that I did not pick up on was that yes, you can have diversity at a company. But if you're not, at all levels, representing that diversity, that the different, you know, individuals within that organization, then yeah, you're you're, you're gonna really damage against your, your organization, because you're right, if somebody is, you know, somebody who's black, but all of them are on the production floor, what, how do they see their path into management? How do they see their path into leadership? I've never considered that. And that is such a valid point. So if you were talking with an organization at that is in that situation? What is the solution? I mean, in my head, I can think of a valid solution. But how is that a coachable moment for you?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  33:04
Well, I mean, I don't think there's a single solution. But I think I think part of this starts at a at a very fundamental level, like when, you know, and I'll draw an example out. So I recently, I post constantly on LinkedIn, and one of my colleagues had an email exchange with a potential customer where, you know, he's trying to bring them into our sales ecosystem. And he sent an email on diversity and hiring. And the customer responded, and said, you know, whatever happened to hiring based on character skill, and you know, a couple of other things, likability or whatever, instead of hiring based on race, and that hints that that points at a fundamental lack of understanding that might exist in the broader world about what diversity actually means. So that person, you know, distilled or defined diversity down to a single category, and that's race. And a lot of people will define diversity down to a couple of categories might be race and gender. But that's not actually what having a diverse workforce means that diversity means exactly that you have representation across any number of groups. So it's not just race. It's not just gender. It's you know, sexual orientation comes into it. Neuro diversity comes into it. Age comes into it, veteran status comes into it. There are so many different factors that create a diverse workforce. And the ultimate intent in terms of how this impacts your ability to retain your talent is that the more representative your organization is of the broader population, and the more people feel like hey, there's somebody of me and people can occupy multiple categories. So this is a check the box sort of exercise the more your organization and represents what the actual world looks like, the better you're going to be when it comes to being able to keep your people once you've gotten it. So it's not just a simple function of coaching. And I'm not a DIY expert. So there's that too. I think one of the things that, that Maya Winston who is an actual di, coach, and she's the head of the onine solutions, which is a pre IPO stage startup, and she's embedded di, in a tech company from the startup stage. What she says is that, you know, the biggest piece of advice that I can give organizations is that don't be performative about your di efforts, it's not enough to throw up a rainbow flag or throw up, you know, whatever the DI initiative is of the month and put a PR statement about, you know, this is what we're doing for for Dei, you have to work at embedding that across the organization, not only in terms of what your organization looks like, but also how your organization behaves. So that means how are you engaging your entire workforce? How are you creating the the culture necessary to have meaningful conversations about you know, one thing or another, there's a recent story that came out where I think I can't off the top of my head come up with the exact company, but I think is a is a it's a well known tech company. And one of their employees asked the question of, you know, do we get Juneteenth off? And the leader, or one of the their internal employees said, Well, you get Martin Luther King day off. So no, you don't get Juneteenth off, you get MLK day off. So and when I talk about, hey, you can you can be performative about your DNI efforts. That is an example of an organization that outwardly says we care about this stuff, but internally has a culture that is toxic to a diverse workforce. So it's not like a single piece of coaching, we're talking about a structural change in terms of how we're defining some of these things, because a lot of us have backwards definitions of things based on our understanding at a point in time. And I think the key thing that I will point out is, you know, the worst thing that you can do if you're on the other end of that conversation, I mean, you know, my colleague that that got that email about what happened to you hiring based on skill, you could have easily flipped out and said, you know, you're so ignorant and uninformed about stuff. And that's fine. But I think that's an opportunity to educate like my philosophy, from a diversity perspective, especially when it comes to talent strategy, we should be bringing as many people together to have these conversations versus automatically defaulting into the position of your right, I'm wrong, because what does that do? It's actually in conflict with one of the fundamental things that I talked about, when when we're engaging as salespeople our responsibility is to seek to understand, so if somebody says something, or somebody has an opinion on something, you're responsible, unless it's like completely and obviously, like off the wall, crazy, you should be engaging to understand, hey, tell me a little bit more about where you're coming from from that, because you guys, I'm curious. And that should be the basis of of your interaction.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:33
But who is the judge on crazy? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  38:40
To answer your question, if if the comment comes after hold my beer and watch this, it's probably a crazy idea. So I think if you can use that, that that as a litmus test, that's, you're probably on safe ground.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:53
Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. Probably 30 years from now, the kids that are coming up, are going to be way more sensitive to all of the things that you and I are having conversations about now. Which is it's an absolute beautiful thing. But you and I have lived for so long in a generation of individuals who, who do struggle and time when my grandmother was sued for referring to people of color in and actually using that term when referring to a black person. And she was sued for for that. But that is how she grew up. That was the terminology that they used. So in and again, 30 years from now, they're going to be using different pronouns in reference to individuals, they're choosing their own pronouns. Now they're choosing. So as time goes by, you know, things are evolving, and we're changing. But yes, as far as the sensitivity on an understanding of all of this stuff these conversations need to have so that We can continue to educate the people that are currently in the workforce that are currently growing up and coming into the workforce. And we can only hope that things will continue to evolve, and that people will open their minds to, to what is happening and the and, and the push to have more inclusion and diversity and understand what that means. Because no would have asked me 10 years ago, what that means I would have said, well, that means that you hire people of different races, I didn't know what, for instance, I didn't know what neurodiverse individuals were, I didn't know that that was even a thing. I mean, now we're coming out with odd people who are autistic, they are now considered to be neurodiverse. And that there's a huge spectrum. And, you know, so this is all an education piece, and an absolutely, but definitely conversations that need to happen. And I continue to educate myself, it's just a matter of these individuals being open and willing to learn. And unfortunately, there are people who are like, I don't want to learn.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  41:07
I mean, I you know, I'll the one thing that I'll say to all that is I don't think it's it's a 30 year runway, I think this is going to actually be impacted pretty significantly in the short run. And in the short run. The reason why is because you have millennials and Generation Z, who are building and advocating for these changes out in the open. And that ties into some of the buyer Centricity stuff that I talked about from a sales perspective, is that those sellers, who are not only leveraging content, collaboration, to build stronger relationships, but are actually talking about their journey. And this could be as anybody, as a professional, I encourage anybody, whether you're an accountant, or whatever, if you're on some platform, social platform, you if you want to build a career that has lasting impact, you should be building that out in the open, and being transparent and vulnerable to an extent because that's actually what's going to drive your brand out faster. So you see a lot of people doing that across multiple functions. So this is where I, I challenge the idea that in 30 years from now, the world is going to look like this, actually, I think it's probably going to be like 234 years from now the world is going to look a different way.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:28
And I agree that the world is definitely going to look different in two to three years. And the reason that I said in 20 to 30 years is because in 20 to 30 years, you and I are going to be retired, much of the this our generation is going to be retired. And we're going to have the generation that is coming up and learning all of this and out and speaking and telling their story. They are going to be running these companies. And it's going to be second nature, it's not going to be let's talk about this let's let's do training. It's going to be second nature on that. I you know the same thing with emotional intelligence, we have emotional intelligence training. Well, by the time my child, my four year old is in the workforce, there's not going to be training on emotional intelligence, it's going to be something that was in ingrained in her from the time that she was little, because I'm learning about that. My you know, and I'm teaching her different things about that. So anyways, we are coming to time. I have the question of the season, and I would love to hear your response to that. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  43:42
Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Okay, so this is gonna be contextual. So when I was graduating high school, I was accepted to both Brown and Stanford. And, you know, I'm a generation zero immigrants. So like, not born here. And from another country, so we didn't really have a big network in terms of how you're supposed to, like navigate this stuff. So I got a partial scholarship to both of those. But even at that time, you're talking about a tuition bill on a yearly basis that's like beyond anything that I could wrap my head around at the time. And I asked my high school counselor like, hey, how do you navigate this? And his first question was, how you're going to pay for it? Which is absolutely the wrong friggin question to ask somebody that doesn't know anything, because it's already my question. So your job as a counselor is to like open up a view into what's possible versus the limitation that that's that you're currently dealing with. So my advice would have been go to Stanford. And the reason why is that it's that same era at Stanford, where you had people like Sergey Brin, and all of the big tech companies that exist now they're in startup mode at that At times, so I would have been in that same ecosystem. And who knows what that would have created in terms of just the network alone would have been fantastic. But it was the network at the point in time where you had all of these companies that were starting their acceleration mode. So that would be one thing. The other thing that I probably would we might do is, you know, early on, I would have probably advised myself to focus on building your brand and building multiple revenue streams in terms of your professional life, and see what you can do to monetize that early, so that you're never relying on like a single job, you to drive your main balance sheet. So those are two different areas that that that I might consider, I don't know exactly which one I would I would stack higher. But that's, that's what came to mind.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:59
Awesome. So you went to you went to Brown.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  46:02
No I didn't go to either I went to East, I went to Eastern Illinois and full followed my girlfriend at the time. Because my reasoning at the point was, I can easily afford directional Illinois School. And the plan was to go to law school after that. So I knew I was going to spend a ton of money in law school. And that ended up going a different direction, because life happened, and my parents bought a business and I ran that. And then by the time they sold it, I was like, Well, I gotta catch up to all my peers. So let me you know, do like a real job versus this, this side business that they they bought, and I ended up running. So you know, you you look at in the point in time, you look at the biggest opportunity possible. And you go after that, versus the practical option. Like I've, I spent my 20s and late teens taking the practical option with the intent of pursuing the next thing. So the lesson is, the next thing might not ever happen, and you don't know what's going to happen in the next year in your life. So go for the biggest shot. And here's the practical application for people that might be listening and are navigating, like career searches and all that sort of stuff. You'll always have employers that come back and say, Hey, I know you want this director role or VP role. But right now, we want you to slot in at this lower level role, and work your way up to it. My advice in that practical scenario, is tell that employer to go eff off. Because if you believe that you have built a track record to get that top spot, you could literally drop dead tomorrow. And the company will replace you. So go for the moonshot versus the practical, earn your way up. And you'll be better served, don't slow your career down because somebody else is telling you this is where you slot in. There's plenty of companies that are looking for great talent. And there's plenty of companies that will hire you at the appropriate position. The whole earn your way there is a sucker's bet, so don't do that. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:17
Well, Jim, this has been an amazing conversation. If somebody wanted to reach out to you to connect, how would they go about doing that? And then where can they find your podcast?
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  48:28
So you can find me on LinkedIn, that's my most active channel. You so I'm all over the place. I post daily on that. You can also follow me on Tiktok. Under the cascading leadership handle, were casted cascading leadership, which is the podcast we have a LinkedIn page there too. So you can find us that way. podcast is available on all major podcast channels. We also have a YouTube channel under the cascading leadership tagline. If you're big into communities, I'm in a bunch of different communities. So sales cast is a community I belong to. So is the sales enablement collective. Those are slack driven so you can find me there so I'm not difficult to find.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:15
Excellent. Well, again, thank you so much for your time today and you have an awesome rest of your day.
 
Dr. Jim Kanichirayil  49:20
Thanks, Leighann It was great being on the show. Looking forward to chatting some more.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:25
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
E-mail – jim@cascadingleadership.com
 
Linkedin- linkedin.com/in/drjimk
 
Podcast - cascadingleadership.buzzsprout.com
 
Company Website - circaworks.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, building, organization, talking, talent, diversity, business, biggest, relationship, terms, career, conversation, point, customer, company, world, leadership, question, solution, cascading

Episode 11 - Karley Cunningham - Creating Culture and Brands

Karley Cunningham is a business owner and an adventurous and beautiful human. This was such an amazing conversation with a true entrepreneur that has an amazing spirit, she helps her clients understand how to create an internal and external culture in order to accelerate their business.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:07
Grand strategist and Business Growth accelerator. Karley Cunningham, takes businesses from competitive spaces out into Blue Ocean Territory, where they can confidently stand out and thrive as brand leaders in their sector, who are international client based benefits from accelerated growth, profit and stability as her innovative surefire method provides them with a surefire strategy and toolkit that enables them to charge a premium, attract ideal clients and outpace their competitors. Karley entrepreneurial success story is featured in the awarded book, the wildest net by Pam Slim, believing deeply in the practice of givers gain, she's developed a global network and rarely goes a day without making a referral or connection when not focusing on the business or expanding her network. She can be found somewhere in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest with her wife and dog in their four by four. Karley, Welcome to Let's Talk HR. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.
 
Karley Cunningham  02:21
It's such a pleasure to be here.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:23
Well, why don't we start off? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
Karley Cunningham  02:27
Where would you like me to start? You want me start business side or professional side?
 
Leighann Lovely  02:31
Wherever you want to start?
 
Karley Cunningham  02:32
How about the business side or professional side? How about personal side or as well? It's off to a good start. There we go. Yes, I have the memory of a goldfish. All right. So let's go personal since I completely skipped over that the first time. I am in North Vancouver right born and raised about an hour southwest of Toronto in Ontario. So I have North border from you and I moved out here because I have an absolute passion for the trails in the mountains and I spend anytime that I'm not at my desk and having great conversations like this on the trails, trail running and mountain biking.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:11
That is awesome. And just a moment ago you showed me your your your little companion that you have your your puppy or your pets not so much a puppy a dog does he or she ever join you.
 
Karley Cunningham  03:23
He is now retired because he's 10 and a half but he was definitely because he's Border Collie Springer retriever cross who's a phenomenal trail dog and I so miss having him at my side on the trails. But he gets to enjoy his his time now going at his own pace.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:38
That's awesome. So, so why don't you tell me a little bit now about what you do professionally do.
 
Karley Cunningham  03:47
During the day, I work with agents of change the disruptors, the innovators, changemakers makers, those who whose business purpose is to make this world a better place for all of us. And in particular, it's interesting, I was having conversation yesterday and I said, you know making positive change? Well, everybody has a different opinion of what positive changes. And so I'm I'm thinking of reverse revising that to saying those who do no harm. So change makers, innovators disruptors, who are changing the world so that we do less or do no harm.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:25
That that is, hey, that's awesome. Because yeah, you're right, everybody. Everybody who believes that they're making change, most people think that they're doing it for the right reasons. But that may not necessarily be the same or be in line with what the next person thinks is the right reasons.
 
Karley Cunningham  04:51
Yeah, are there right reasons. Right. Right. Thank you Supreme Court.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:56
Right. And and I suppose that going back to do an episode you haven't heard this episode, it hasn't actually launched yet. But going back to something that I heard on Episode One that will soon launch that I spoke with Mr. Andy wines, he said if it is legal, moral or ethical, and it can pass those tests then. Okay, but we have to have a referee of what those things are, right? Well, absolutely. And as he would say, you know, when it comes to legal that's, that's somebody else that's deciding that, but the moral and ethical thing, there has to be a referee of, of at each individual company, or I suppose the things that you are the people that you are working with, you decide on what and who you want to work with, when it comes to on to those things, correct?
 
Karley Cunningham  05:50
Yeah, definitely.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:51
So tell me a little bit more about how, you know, how are you helping them? How are you helping those influencers of change? Change things, you know, what is your what is your business? What is your model? What is your?
 
Karley Cunningham  06:05
What's my thing? What's your thing? What's my thing? So for the past 20, something years, I have worked at the intersection of visual communications, sales and business development, marketing and branding. And so where I really fell in love in that journey was with developing company brands. Because it's easy to say I develop brands, but that could be a personal brand, that could be a product brand. That could be, you know, a brand name product. But what I really enjoy doing is working with business owners and leaders and their leadership teams to get clear on who they are, what they do, the value they deliver, to the right audiences for them, and how to differentiate themselves in crowded markets to effectively push themselves away from red ocean out into Blue Ocean Territory.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:02
Awesome. So you are you're self employed, you're the business owner, correct? have Big Bold Brands, and that you've been running now for that business has been in place for what, 14 and a half years? So you go out you work with them to figure out how do I either rebrand myself were properly brand myself or market myself. But there's, when we when we spoke, there was something that you had originally when we originally spoke you and you'd said something to me, that really resonated with me. And I know this because I wrote it down. And when I talk with people, I write down these things that like, all of a sudden, it's like a light bulb goes off. You said, it's not just about branding your business for, you know, externally. It's also branding your business internally. So tell me a little bit you know about that, because this really goes to, you know, you can you can tell people, Hey, here's who I am. But if you don't hold it close to the chest, or tell your internal employees, this is who we are. Are you really what you're telling the world you are?
 
Karley Cunningham  08:12
Often not? Right, right, because there's there's a gap. And I call that the brand gap. And it's always hard to illustrate with your hands on a podcast. But if you imagine, you know, holding up both hands, palms side down, and they're flat, you imagine one side being one side of the gap. And the other. The other side of the gap is, you know, what stories you want and believe your company to be and you want people to be telling be at your employees, be it your clients, be it your clients clients, you know, and what they're actually saying, How far is that gap? Is it a little Is it is it? Is it there no gap? Because everybody is doing so consistently? Is there a little gap? Because you know, there's always the telephone game, so to speak? Or is it a Grand Canyon sized gap? When we tell you having just done the Grand Canyon, that's a pretty big gap. So when we talk about in internal versus external brand, there's a couple of layers to that. So the internal brand is what it what is everyone internally believe the company to be? And I'm sure because of your background and what you do, you are well versed in the term HR brand. Well, here's the interesting piece for me. So I've worked in the if we're talking bigger organization, I've worked in the marketing side of things. And so you know, if you imagine circles making up all the departments, we're kind of in often times in opposing places on that larger circle at the company. And so typically what happens as a business grows, the brand gets formed either by an external party or by the internal party because someone's been brought in and marketing the company grows, someone like yourself gets added in an HR position, looks at the Glassdoor description goes, Oh, okay. So we need to work on that. We need to build an HR brand. That challenge I have with that is we've got to siloed brands and congratulations. Now we've got sometimes some polar opposite things going on. And in reality, when I talk about building a company brand from the inside out my methodology puts it in the leadership house and brings the leaders into the company to agree on. Why did we start this business? What is our purpose beyond making profit? What are our guiding principles? Right? Okay, our values, you know, what, what tools and measures are we using to determine that everybody's acting in alignment with the desired behaviors, and the guiding principles of our company. And when we talked about the business owners, and we get that tight in, when we're talking small to midsize businesses, especially people leave other businesses for their passion, much like I did. And for reasons of I left my business because I left the company that I was working for great agency, love the people. But quite simply put, I was starting a mountain bike race career, and my boss wouldn't give me the time off that I needed to improve my Canadian standing. So I was like, Well, this is interesting. And so I quit to follow my passion. And I started to freelance and then it's effectively led me down this path to building my own business. But the understanding of that is, I left for certain reasons, I bring myself to the business, I bring my own beliefs, my dreams, my passions, my ways of being and doing to the business. And if you simply take a business owner, or partners, or a leadership team, and you allow someone externally to brand them, like you would a product, we're going to do the market research, we're going to figure out where the gap is in the market, we're going to figure out how to how to, in a way manipulate the differentiation of this, and we're gonna wrap you know, the new beverage can in pink, because it's going to be for girls, 14 to 17, yada, yada, yada, right? The problem with that is, you can't do that to people, right, or you can't just find a gap in the market and tell them this is who they're going to be. And this is who they're going to work with. Because those those dreams, that passion, the ways of being and doing, they need to be that live that for them to authentically show up. And also for them to be able to actually do it. Right. So if you just wrap them externally, from the outside based on market statistics and data, I call that the itchy sweater, because you can sell it to them for a little bit but eventually having to live it becomes uncomfortable, it gets itchy,
 
Leighann Lovely  12:35
Right? Absolutely. How does one I guess then get them to choose to want to wear and I guess I'm going to take a tagline from the company I work at want to wear the company jersey. I mean, and show up in it every day, and play on their company team and do the rah rah
 
Karley Cunningham  12:59
Question. Yeah, great question. Well, we start with the leadership, whatever that looks like solopreneur like myself, moving into I was in a business partnership for a while. And ironically enough, the reason our company dissolved, even though it was growing was because we were values misaligned. So bring that leadership team or person to the table, and you go through the exercise of taking through in our method, it's called the surefire method. What's your purpose? Thanks, Simon. Sinek start with why. You know why, why? What gets you out of bed in the morning about this company, even on your worst days, you know, when the kids have had you up all night, or you've just felt I can see you smiling? You've been there at all? Have you ever had that happen? You know, in my case, the dogs had a rough night hate something on the trail. And of course, it could not come up at seven o'clock at night. It's always three in the morning. But on those worst days, you're feeling crappy. It's you know, I live on the west coast or the west coast, it's raining and you're just like, I really don't want to do this. But what why why get out of bed why go serve your clients, why go serve your customers why go make the widget the thing the whatever it is that you produce or service and we start there, we start with the heart of the company because the head can justify anything but the heart will always tell you you're wrong. And then we define the guiding principles we get into what is the character persona of the company and how do we want it to make people feel and I say it being almost this personified body beyond it's the agreed upon agreements of what is this company and I always tell character as describe it as imagine that we were going to send the company into it becomes a person you know that a little bit of Disney magic and it walks into the into the client party, the anniversary party, the whatever the trade show, how would it show up? And so then the other piece of that is the three to five year vision like where is this company? and going so talk to us about your dream, and then come back to three to five years, which is a neurologically, our brains can wrap itself around, it becomes real, be unlocked on the timeline spectrum, we can't really imagine anything beyond three to five years. So scientists say. So, we refer to those as the fundamental beliefs and truths of the business. And there are some other ones, but those are the real, intrinsic pieces. And so then when you say, okay, so we get clear on those. And then you say, Okay, well, how do we attract other people? Well, effectively, you're using those tools, as filters to hire your people. Do they believe what we believe? are they passionate about art? where we're headed? Does that get them excited? Do they believe in our purpose? Are they values aligned with us? Right? And do we feel like they could personify the character and make people feel the way we want them to feel?
 
Leighann Lovely  15:50
Well, and if you do everything that you just said, well enough, you have then created an entire workforce of people who are out advertising on your behalf. And I'm not talking about about the widget that you're creating, or the product that you're creating, I'm talking about advertising to come and work for you. Advertising that when you have an open job, and they're saying, you know, and you say, hey, and this is just an added kicker of, you know, we'll give you a $50 gas card. And right now, I could definitely use a 52 card. I could use a $2 gas card or anything to get that gas price down. Anyways. I mean, if a company would say, hey, we'll give you you know, a referral bonus to anybody. And now you've done everything, all of what you just said, properly, your, your employees now become your greatest asset, to finding people to come and work for you. Because if you are treating them, right, you they understand your vision, just as much as as you understand your vision, your path, your passion, all of all of the things, all of the things, then all of the sudden, it is that much easier to hire, because the people, your entire workforce has now become the advertisement of why they should work at that company. And you have 20, 30, 150, 1000 people saying, oh, you should come work at this company. It is awesome. The culture is great. They treat us like great people, they don't treat you like a number. And and then retaining people is that much easier because people aren't running out the door because they have, you know, they feel like a number. This is my area of expertise of, hey, treat people the way they should be treated. You want if you I'm so tired of people saying we have a hiring problem. Really, you have a hiring problem. How many people have you hired in the last six months? Well, we've hired 10. Okay, how many people have left? Oh, well, only three of them stuck, you don't have a hiring problem. You have a retention problem. And if you have a retention problem, you better be looking at your culture, you better be looking at your management, you better be looking at all the things because that hiring problem is not the problem. If you're hiring people, and they're leaving, you have a retention problem. And if you have a retention problem, you most likely have a culture problem.
 
Karley Cunningham  18:23
And a brand problem and a brand brand and culture egg chicken and egg. Yeah. And here's the other interesting piece, I'm just going to a couple things I want to pull on there just so it doesn't get missed. So it's not just enough to put those words down on paper. When you develop your purpose, your guiding principles, all those elements, you need to take them off the page, you need to put them into action. We call it integrating them within your systems and processes and activating them within your people. That's where the rubber really hits the road. And you're absolutely right. When that happens and people all It's so cheesy metaphor, put them all on the boat, and they'll all be you know, sitting in the right direction, rowing in the right cadence and know where they're going. Right? How many companies get siloed simply because they all believe something different about where they're headed, and what the what their purpose is that contributes to the bigger purpose. Yeah. And I agree with you on the retention problem part. What I'm starting to hear companies are doing is they're doing stay interviews, because people are throwing money around willy nilly right now because all I hear is oh, so and so is paying this much more and so and so is giving this amount of bonus just to get people to stay. Well, we know that after a certain percentage, because studies have shown that money isn't everything. Now money does talk but it's not everything. So what if you sat down with your staff if you have any fear of any one leaving or even maybe it's just your A players really like oh, if I was going to scoop them up because we know there's a lot of employees feeling going on right now. Do a stay interview that is going to give you that as the litmus test for is your brand what you believe it to be, hire an outside person to do it, even if it's someone, even if it's a VA make up the questions, have someone do stay interviews with your rockstars with or maybe with a sprinkling of people throughout each department and just read it, they'll tell you,
 
Leighann Lovely  20:21
Right, if in here that I am. So I've been in the industry, you know, my listeners know how long I've been in the industry and beating a dead horse and you know, a long time, a long time. And during my time of corporate HR, and when somebody came in and they gave notice, it was hands down, it was okay, we'll schedule your exit interview, figure out who you know, is going to sit in on that it was hands down. Because, again, I understand there was also this was before you know, 2008 when when the world decided that all of the sudden your team of you know for HR people is now only one HR person and that HR person has to do everything and it's like overwhelming for that person. And we've never recovered from that, ever. i It drives me crazy that we never The world never recovered from that. It there was a complete shift. Everybody got laid off that was in human resources. And departments never rehired those numbers back up to where they should be. Because there's way too much responsibility put on one person that is supposed to and then those people get burned out. And then they become mean. Not all of them. Not all of them. There's my little my little
 
Karley Cunningham  21:43
but it gets you but here's the other thing. One person can only handle policies and procedures and like the the admin stuff that is the eye drying, want to scratch my eyeballs out work well who's actually working on the culture? Right? And if your people are your greatest asset, hmm, expense or investment?
 
Leighann Lovely  22:04
Correct. Right. So, but during that time, it was it was an exit interview, why are you leaving us? You know, and you actually got feedback from these individuals, because one, you weren't treating them like a pariah for leaving. You were like, Hey, we genuinely want to know why you're leaving us. Now. It's like, okay, you're leaving us? Great. Boom, out the door. Bring in the next person. Why? You know, there are people who they give notice, and companies are like, they either say, Okay, we'll give you $5,000 More to stay. And they say no, I'm sorry, I'm still leaving. And they're like, Okay, fine. See you later, get out of here. Hey, stop doing stop treating people like that, like, well, you know, when you when you talk to companies, they're like, we just don't have time, we don't have time for it, we need we need to move on and find somebody else. Well, maybe if you shifted back to the way that it was, you wouldn't have as many people doing this, and you would find time to reinvest back into your people. And you won't have the turnover, you won't have the, you know, 25% turnover that you have. And that's, that's ridiculous, maybe you would have a 10% turnover rate versus the mean 25%. And think right now is being nice. You know, in some industries, the turnover rate, you know, on the production floor is 50%. You know, and the ones that do stay have been there for 15, 20 years
 
Karley Cunningham  23:36
And they're probably just too scared or comfortable to leave, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  23:39
Because that, because there have an I hate to call out an age group, but many of them are some of the older population, that that is what they did. They have been there, they're going to stay until they retire, they're not going to make a move. It's part of their generation, it's part of their that's what it's ingrained into them, they're going to write it out, no matter what. And that's it. And many of those may be also very highly compensated and are just they don't, they're not interested in leaving. So that's great. But you're never going to be able to retain the younger generation coming in if you're not treating them the way that the culture of the country now demands. And this has been a cultural shift. So I'm off on a rant let's bring this back to you talking and not me Yes, I do this I can
 
Karley Cunningham  24:37
I can rant too I got I got it. That's a real man and a few minutes probably.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:43
So now you you you go in you really focus in on that you know internal culture. So at any point or at what point do you say okay, now we've we've really honed in, we've got your internal culture working. I would have to assume that it's a pretty Quick and easy shift ago, okay, now, we've done all of the, I mean, it told me if I'm wrong, but now you've done kind of the back work to say, now you just have to flip this and make this your external culture.
 
Karley Cunningham  25:15
Yeah, I mean there's there's not even a flip. One of the diagrams that I came up with people are loving. And I say that almost shocked. I mean I knew it was you know, you test you test it okay I'm going to I'm a metaphor person. So sometimes my metaphors just don't land. And I'm married to someone who doesn't think in metaphor, so often they don't land and that's no criticism. It's just it's I know, I've hit a really good one when it when it lands, right, because different people think different ways. And I'm a visual thinker. And so my hope is, is that your, your audience, our listeners, they can visualize this. But so imagine that the brand is a watercolor pigment. And it's this beautiful bright color that you love. And so we've we've we've mixed the color, which is is your brand, it's has the all the alchemy of what colors we're going to add in there. And then you leadership is at the center of your company. And so every time we practice, living our brand and integrating it into our systems and activating it amongst our people, now imagine taking some of that pigment and dropping it in each department. So if we imagine that the departments are circles around that center circle, and they're doing the same thing, so every time those actions are happening, water is getting added. And so that pigment blends out from the inside out of each circle, as well as the leadership house. And then it fills up all the internal circles, because everybody's saying what we want and need them to say about us, everybody is taking actions that are aligned, they're going in the same direction. And so these beautiful colors or whatever color it is that you've chosen to be your brand colors, so to speak. It just it just naturally flows out of the company and influences everyone you touch.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:59
That's awesome. And I love the metaphor, by the way, because I'm thinking I'm, I'm an artist, I will fall, self proclaimed. I know that I'm actually an artist, my daughter loves my artwork, but I love you know, if you've ever watched paint do that, it is really cool in the way that it does it and to think of that, and the way that it would work at a company is that's really, it's very beautiful. Because it's also true, because you're right, you get it everybody flowing in the same way. And yes, this is exactly what we were just kind of talking about is that your people become your greatest asset and greatest sales tool. If you get everybody thinking and working in unison in the same way. So
 
Karley Cunningham  27:48
And so somebody somebody out there, you know, Italy, smart, intelligent question, or it's always the heckler in the room goes, What if your target audiences don't like the color you picked? Right. But that's the thing as you build these strategic tools, the ones I haven't talked about yet. So the internal tools in my diagram is our is our big bold brand we call the big bold brand raspberry. That is the purpose, the vision, the guiding principles, the character, and then we the next color we turned in the model, as you imagine a Jenga board moving its way up, is we actually change the next set of tack on tools to blue, because that's where we want to make a distinction that now we're talking about something that is external to the company. So defining the target audience profiles, we are making a conscious choice. So it can't just be all about us. But the foundation and the roots need to be about us and then where do we build from there. And that's where we go deep and understanding your ideal target audiences notice I didn't say ideal clients or ideal customers, because our business has touched so many more people than just the customers. So the next profile I always develop is your strategic partners now whether that be a partner that you need in a and what my coach calls a peanut butter and jelly partnership where you fit together and serve your clients really well. One almost needs the other to be that great tasting piece of Wonder Bread or pieces of Wonder Bread to stick together. But also where was I gonna totally distracted myself with the metaphor it must be after three and I'm I'm almost hungry but but looking at our referral partners it might be the the other companies who refer people who also work with your target audience. So are they working with them before after and sending them your way? So looking at all the the audience's in in sequential and priority order, and that it's at that point that we form that fine balance so for the smart aleck in the room or the smart person depending upon how they had set it in their head, you know, where they heckling me in their head out there and listener land but yeah, we're not going to pick hot pink if we've got an audience So that doesn't resonate with that color. Right? Find that fine balance between the two.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:04
Yeah, that's cool. That's, that's really, you know, I've never really thought of engaging somebody who's well, you don't? When you think of them putting a marketing plan you putting branding on something you don't think of that from an internal business position standpoint, right? You think of, oh, I'm going to brand my company and you think, Well, how does? How does? How's the world gonna look at us? You don't think that? How do we look at ourselves? How do we how do we present as you know, I don't want to say the low man on the totem pole. I hate that, you know, I'm, but if I'm the janitor, or I'm the machine operator, I'm not thinking of what our brand looks like. But for somebody to come in and say, okay, but we we want to engage you in how that looks for everybody. And then to how you know, to see that change and evolve. That that's awesome. That's really awesome.
 
Karley Cunningham  31:03
Yeah, it comes back to how do we want to make people feel? It's not just about the external people, right? If we think about the doers in the company, you know, how is how was the guy or gal on the loading dock, responding to those that are delivering your product? Right? That's kind of an important partner. Right? If they're the grumpy, Cranky person, and you're just, you know, the greatest, my biggest pet peeve on the HR side is, oh, that's just Sally. She's just like that she's been here 20 years, it's okay. She's just allowed to be cranky. You know, the exception to the culture rule where it even gets toxic. Oh, we know that she's a bully, but we just we just leave her over there on the shipping dock. Wow. I can't even tell you how many times I encounter that. Or the other one is the Yeah, but they're our greatest sales rep. Like they double everyone else's. Okay, but they're still in a hole. Right? How do you think that, like, if they're serving, like any more than everybody else, they're touching that many more people. Do you really want them out their
 
Leighann Lovely  32:09
Failure to act or address an issue? When somebody is. And I've, I've seen it happen, I have sat there and seen somebody act out in front of management's. And that manager has failed to correct behavior. And I'm not saying that the right action would have been to correct it in front of anybody. But they failed to even follow back up and correct. The negative behavior that happened in front of all of these other people, which tells all of those other people, that it's okay to act that way. Really, it's okay to say that, you know, XYZ, I hate salespeople. I, that's that's the one that I hear a lot. Because salespeople Yes, salespeople bring in the work. And if you're a worker B, you're gonna hate the salesperson, right? And the salesperson is coming back and saying, Hey, did you get this done? Because their client is asking them, when is my order gonna come out? I hear that constantly. Well, salespeople are such a pain in the butt. Now, salesperson needs to be courteous one they rely on. So if they are being a, an evil, yeah, they need to be then it needs to be addressed. It needs to be fixed. But on the flip side of that, the people who are constantly you know, hating on the salesperson because How dare that person bring me work? Well, yeah, that person stopped bringing you work, you wouldn't have a job. So there's, I mean, there's always that push and pull of, Hey, guys, like, just find a way to get and I say, find a way to get along. But sometimes it's not that simple, right? No, management needs to come in and be like, Okay, wait a second guys. Like really? Is Is he or she doing something that's that irritating? Like, I don't know, bringing you job? And really, salesperson? Is this person doing something? Really, that's, they're trying to do their job, but maybe XYZ is happening and they don't have the product? Or they don't have? Okay, another tangent? Okay, here's what I would really like to go. So you I mean, obviously, you what, 14 and a half years ago, you went out on your own but you made a comment about part of the reason that you would, you'd made that choice and it was because of something personal that happened in your life, you had decided that you had a passion for biking and and you had a boss that was not willing to work with you on that. And I kind of want to get a little bit more into your personal story. So yeah, tell me a little bit more about you know, about that what what was that driver that find the end? Was it scary? Because I mean going out on your own? And it's been a wild but yeah, tell me tell me a little bit more about that.
 
Karley Cunningham  35:10
What is it ignorance is bliss so so funny enough he I always say you have to look back and what are the what are the the sliding doors moment kind of kind of things. So So I had I ended a relationship and or it was ended I don't remember which now it was so long ago, but it came to an end. And so you know, what a women do they either go shopping or they cut their hair or they do both. And so I went shopping and I bought myself a truck. Right? I've always I've always been a tomboy. So I bought myself a truck. And I'm like, I need a toy for the back. Because what's the point of owning a truck other otherwise. And so it was kind of a toss up between a jetski or a mountain bike, and I didn't have dock access. I mean, there's lots of lakes in Ontario, but I didn't have dock access. So I was like, Well, how's that gonna work? Alright, leave it to me to always be practical. So, yeah, so I bought the mountain bike. And I started riding with the guys at the shop and I'm actually laughing in my head because I went out for the first ride and I was I fell so many times I flew over the handlebars, like he did every probably everything possible wrong. Bless the guys, they were so kind and patient with me. And I think because I was just so excited that they were just like, Okay, we'll just come along. And I think they had a few good laughs too, because I'm really good at throwing expletives around. So I was so bruised and battered. It was like I had baseball size or softball sized bruises on my on my legs. And the next week, I showed up in the mechanic of the shop who also came on the rise. He was missing the week before and he goes, Oh, are you? Are you here to get your bike fixed? I heard about your ride last week. I'm like, No, I'm here to ride. He's like, That's awesome. Like, they didn't think they would ever see me. Yeah. But I absolutely fell in love with mountain biking. And so long story short, just some was like you should try a race. I tried to race it was fun. And I met a couple of women in the race. And they're like, Oh, if you really enjoy this, you should check out this all women's team. And I ended up on that all women's team. And within a couple years I was I was moving my way up to the elite level, my first season I finished second in the province. And so there was some potential there, I've always been an athlete, I've always been a high performing athlete, and I do well with a training plan, I structure my business very similarly, a lot of the concepts that I use in my business, like you can throw me a great business concept, and I can understand it, but it doesn't. It almost like it goes in one ear out the other sometimes it bounces off my forehead, like I can get it but I don't it's it's not visceral retainment for me, but athletics is and that's. So I'll use training structures in my business, like you cannot go 100% All the time, you have to have a rest period and a down period. And so you can't always design that depending upon what kind of business you run. But you can recognize when you have a downtime, and it took me a lot of years to learn this, don't freak out. Enjoy your downtime. Because if you're good at what you do, and you're consistent with your marketing actions, and you deliver a great product or service, that word of mouth is going to work for you. I mean, you can't just sit around and do nothing. But you can you can back off the pedal a little bit. Right. And so yeah, so I eventually moved west to improve my Canadian standing. And then I prompt myself promptly burnt myself out with Adrenal Fatigue within I probably had it. But I got here and my body literally gave out on me. It was like nah, not playing anymore. Sorry. No. So, yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:52
So when all of this was happening, you were working. And you were training or did you did you take time off work?
 
Karley Cunningham  39:03
Yeah. So, you know, that was always one of my pet peeves in the race scene, is you had some of these really talented university students who, you know, they ended in May, they picked up their training mum and dad paid the tab for them to drive all over the country. And mum and dad's really nice car or fly and paid for their hotels. And here I was working. At that point before I quit my job before I drove West. I was working 40 hours a week. So I was up at five driving to the place where I worked, which was about 45 minutes away, meeting my coach either at the gym or to go for a ride, showering, changing, working an eight hour day leaving and if I hadn't written that morning, I was getting on my bike where I was going to the gym. And so I was training five to six days a week. Wow. So I wonder why. Renal fatigue.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:57
So not so I'm not familiar with what had Adrenal Fatigue is was that permanent?
 
Karley Cunningham  40:04
Um, so if you imagine your adrenals, that the adrenaline is a to my understanding, and someone's probably going to be like, You're so wrong, but in because I'm a visual thinker, I envision my adrenals, like, a container with adrenal fluid. Yeah, probably totally wrong. But that's how it was explained to me in a way. And, you know, it's like burning through the gas in your car. And if you're not putting gas back in, well, then eventually it just doesn't drive. And so how it came about, for me, some of the symptoms were interesting. When it was full on for me, I would go out for a training ride, I would get a cold or a flu, or, you know, my body was just no and my, I wasn't doing enough stretching, so everything was super tight. And I was 26 years old, and my back would cease up. And I would have to get pretty much helped out a bed and walked around the block in the morning. Like, there's like an 86 year old. And it was just, you know, lack of knowing lack of know how back in the day, it was training women like they were small men, which doesn't work because we have very different compositions and very different hormones. So yeah, it was a bit of a nightmare. I do now have to be careful how hard I push myself physically and even just in the business. And what was interesting is adrenal fatigue wasn't a recognized problem by Western medicine. Oh, back when I had it, they were like, oh, yeah, that's just a myth. And then research started to happen. And so the only place I could have if I could have afforded it, because keeping in mind that I'm now paying to travel myself across the country, to race, I'm driving all over the place on weekends. So you know, seeing a naturopath they were pretty much the only people who were treating our practitioners that were treating it at the time. But fast forward 10 years after that, I started seeing entrepreneurs with adrenal fatigue.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:57
Right. Interesting. So this is not just, this isn't just a sports thing. This is actually Oh, wow. Interesting. I mean, you know, I, I suppose I've heard I've heard of it. I've never, nobody's ever actually explained like, well, this is what it is. But I mean, that's, that's really interesting.
 
Karley Cunningham  42:20
Yeah, so you fight, fight or flight, right? Your your adrenals fire, when there needs to be a fight or flight. And so entrepreneurs are always hustling, they're always moving. They're always firefighting, they're working ridiculous hours. I've heard entrepreneurs say, I haven't taken a holiday in eight years, right? I'm like, Excuse me, what? Winter down season,
 
Leighann Lovely  42:41
Right? We all need that. You know, here's interesting. I've always been a huge milk drinker. And when I was really young, I had a bone density test. And I was told that you you really need you should take calcium, you should you should take a lot of calcium, and I know that my grandmother had problems with her bones and, and then when I was in basic training, I started having problems with and this was put, this is potassium, but I also saw I started having really bad, you know, you wake up and you're like your muscles completely. Like, seized. Well, I started really having problems with that when I was in the military. And then I had I had shin splints. I was I was an athlete and in high school and everything. I was a soccer player. I always had shin splints. Well, one was in basic training. And somebody explained this to me during the day, you know, you shed bone you shed you know, all these different things at night when you rest is when your body rebuilds or regrows your bone mass, all of this other stuff and they said if you don't get enough sleep at night and solid sleep, you don't sleep it can do very harmful damage to that cycle. Well, I had shin splints really bad in the military, they started coming back and I wasn't sleeping properly. I you know, you're 17 years old, you're in a completely crazy environment. Though shin splints eventually turned into shin splints to stress fractures, eventually to an actual break in my out bone. And when I came back, they did a nuke med scan. And I have never in my life, like they're like, oh, so the hotspots are all lit up. And I'm like, what the whole thing's lit up and on the lower extremities and they're like, Yeah, you really shouldn't be walking. I'm like, You got to be kidding me. My hips I have now permanent bursitis and bilateral hips, my knees my patellas were swollen, the tops of my feet. All of them had stress reactions. So it's it's no joke like when your body when you're not properly taken care of, and I'm 17 years old. I do didn't realize that, you know, this is happening. And you, you're in basic training, you can't go, you can't go to him and be like, Yeah, I think I need some calcium, you know, it's just not something you do
 
Karley Cunningham  45:14
Excuse me, can I go to the pharmacy, please?
 
Leighann Lovely  45:15
Right? Be like, What is wrong with get get back, you know, information and
 
Karley Cunningham  45:22
Fall in line soldier.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:24
Right fall in line. But I mean, it was I was in physical therapy for, you know, for almost a year, you know, I'm still I still have problems with my hips, because of, you know, because of that time period. But it's no joke you, your your body. It does try to give you signs, it's just them. We
 
Karley Cunningham  45:44
Oh, it'll scream at you all day long. You just need to learn to listen. So I So here's, here's an interesting one. And I'm going to bring it back to an equation that I think helps anybody in any given time, but the Oh, my God in learning your body is sometimes like what signals it's sending you. I know that if I'm craving salt, and soda pop, I, I'm dehydrated. I haven't had enough water right now that's counterintuitive. Why would it be craving salt? Well, because salt retains water within your body. Right? Right. So all these nerdy things you learn when you're an athlete, but overall, what we're both saying is paying attention to your body. And there's a great equation, stress plus rest equals growth. So no stress and all rest, no growth. All stress, no rest, no growth. And that comes out of a great book, if anybody is interested in performance. And it's actually a business book written by one of the top like, he trains marathoners, he's a he's a running coach, and then also by a business professional, and it's called peak performance. And it does exactly what I've been doing for years is taking principles from sport and applying them to business or and applying them to personal success. Right? It's a brilliant book.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:03
Interesting. Well, and that's it, why not take why not take something that I mean, the discipline that it takes somebody in, in sports to become a, you know, effective athlete, and high performing athlete, it's the same mindset. It's just like golf. And I'm not a golfer. So I can't speak to personal experience. But I live amongst golfers, my, my dad, my brother, it's one of those and I tried to golf at a very young age, and I want to start golfing again, because I think I can do it now. Because I am a very focused and you know, it's the same thing with it's a mind game. It's not about how strong you are to hit that ball. It all it's not about, you know, swinging the hardest, it's not about being powerful. It all comes down to your concentration, your ability to control, and, you know, be precise and to hit properly and to it's patience, that it has absolutely nothing to do with a powerful swing. And yes, of course, if you have a stronger swing, you could maybe hit it a little bit harder. But
 
Karley Cunningham  48:11
You still have to play well. It's interesting because I played the junior tour because I looked up to my grandfather, and he was a golfer. And so he gave me a book or maybe it was a VCR tape. videotape. Remember those things? Yes. But it was it was it was all about playing smart goal, right? So it doesn't you I mean, you can smack the crap out of that ball. But if you're not paying attention to everything that's going on, knowing where your next lie is thinking two shots ahead. You know, it's it's about playing smart,
 
Leighann Lovely  48:38
Right? And any sports is. Same with soccer. If it's not, you're not just running to get the ball and then kick it you have to be thinking about once I get the ball, which direction am I going and who is going to be open? Am I going to take it directly to the goal? Am I going to look for the next open pass? Am I going to you know, you have to be that's any sports. It's the same thing with any business that you're in, especially in a sales role, especially in you know, I'm not just calling somebody to be like, Hi, I'm Leanne. How are you today? Oh, good. Okay, well, this was a great call. You know, you I'm sorry. I'm in sales, obviously. So, you know, it's
 
Karley Cunningham  49:19
Awesome. I was about to start playing along with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:23
But you know, you're calling and being like, hey, you know, and you can't, you have to have a flow, you have to have a purpose. You have to have a hook that somebody's like, oh, I want to talk to you so that they don't immediately be like a sales call. Okay, great. Yep. By and hang up on you. You have to give value. And you have to know, you know, as the salesperson calling, you have to know when to pivot. If that person is all of a sudden, like, Yeah, this isn't valuable. Otherwise, you're gonna get hung up on what for the most case I don't get hung up on because I'm calling business business. It's more hung hanging up on people when you're
 
Karley Cunningham  49:54
Cool, but it's also about building your relationship. Correct? Correct. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:59
Absolutely. 100% in any business, it's about building relationships in any contact. And that's different than a way, the way that it was 15 years ago, 15 years ago, it was a lot more about the more transactional, hey, let's get this deal done and go our separate ways. Maybe, maybe a little bit more like 20 years ago, 15 years ago, we were going more towards the relationship 10 years ago, a lot more towards the relationship five years ago, it was like, how do we become friends, you know, and get business done today. It's like, Let's hang out, get to know each other. And if we like each other, let's do some business.
 
Karley Cunningham  50:43
Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk about how it's gone so far the other way. I've seen a couple posts lately, but the one that stands out, the most to me, is a business owner who's been who's been ranting, and rightly so on LinkedIn about some of the sit like she's like, What do you people do all day besides stalk me, she goes, I have so many bad reach out sales. Like I have to shut off my social media, like my business thrives off social. But now I get spam so much by people trying to sell me stuff that I can't even be on social media. And she posted one the other day that somebody stalked all of her profiles, and wrote her an email, just like, hey, how's your cat fluffy, or, you know, insert cat's name? Like they had looked up her pets names, and that was kind of their opening line. And she's like, now I feel threatened. Like, now you're like, that's creepy. Now, sure, it gets to me. Oh, yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  51:47
That would creep out. Right? Yeah. Well, it it creeps me out. When I mentioned to my husband, hey, do we need to buy a new vacuum cleaner? And then like three different options of vacuum cleaners pop up on my cell phone? I'm like, What the hell's going on? I'm like, somebody's in our house listening.
 
Karley Cunningham  52:03
But it's true. Well, even the phone lines I called about we need our washer fixed. I called yesterday. And I said, I booked the appointment. And I said, Oh, do you need my address? She goes, Oh, no, I can see that you're at xx x road. And then I said, Oh, you probably knew my note unit number. She's like, No, I know what unit number I'm like, Whoa, what?
 
Leighann Lovely  52:23
Right? It's creepy. It's, it's very creepy. So
 
Karley Cunningham  52:28
Why are we talking about being human? Right? The world is moving so far away. You know, it's almost coming full circle, like it's gone. So, so much to being everybody was a number in the 70s in the 80s. Then it became about personal relationship. And now we're coming that full circle where AI is making it creepy again, right? Like it's humanizing thing. So it's, you know, life's about being human.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:51
And that's, it's, it's funny, because my generation was the generation of let's take pictures of our, of our dicks and send it to people. And then we all got, you know, we got burned for that, right? Well, I don't have that. So I, I didn't get personally burned for that. But I am of that stupid, idiotic generation of, hey, let's be idiots and send dick pics. Sorry, yes. I love that. Now, the younger generation goes, holy crap. Who are these idiots that were in front of us? I'm never doing that. And they've gotten wildly private on social media. So there's a whole younger generation that are not on Facebook. They're not taking. I mean, I'm sure they take some stupid selfies and stuff like that. But they're not taking pictures, inappropriate pictures of themselves because they've learned from us. Thank God. Thank God, they learned from us. So they're, they're not being you know, so now we are flipping to the other, like the other side going back to anonymity? Correct. They're realizing, Oh, I shouldn't tag where I am, when I'm a 17 year old or 16 year old or 18 year old girl. Because that actually could cause somebody to figure out where I am. And maybe it could be a bad thing. Whereas my generation's like, Oh, let me tell you where I'm at. And, you know, I'm here now. And gee, that do you think that maybe he's not agree? Oh,
 
Karley Cunningham  54:22
I had my lesson with being stalked by an unknown number by an unknown person. And it was terrifying. And it just happened to be at a point where I was living on my own
 
Leighann Lovely  54:34
Right. And I and I used to, I never used to do that. I was not on Facebook. I never used to take pictures. I never posted them. And my friends always were like, Why aren't you on Facebook? And I'm like, I have an account. I choose not to take pictures everywhere. I am a single woman who lives alone. Why would I put where I am? Why? I don't need to put pictures of my dinner. Nobody gives a shit what I'm eating. Again. Sorry. Anybody out there? Who was thing is that
 
Karley Cunningham  55:02
Apologize to other foodie listeners today?
 
Leighann Lovely  55:07
Yes. Okay, we are at time because we have gone off on a random weird tangent. So the question of the season? Yes. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself,
 
Karley Cunningham  55:24
Take more chances and fail fast?
 
Leighann Lovely  55:29
And what age would that be? That you gave that advice to?
 
Karley Cunningham  55:33
I would, I would say, when I started my business, I would say in my mid 20s, I mean, you spend so much of your younger life, remember that ignorance is bliss part? Absolutely, you know, hopefully got some parents to put some bumpers on the lanes for you. But you know, as as a young woman, you stepped in, you transition from awkward teenage pneus into womanhood. And then society puts all these expectations on you, and all these shoulders on you, and all the end and all these barriers on you. Trust your gut, go after what you want. Fail fast, you know, take more chances.
 
Leighann Lovely  56:08
That's awesome. That's That's brilliant. And I agree. Feel fast. bounce back quickly, quicker.
 
Karley Cunningham  56:16
Yeah. And when you win, celebrate the wins, dammit. Women are so good at being like, oh, no, no, I didn't deserve that. You know, I've raised I've congratulated women for running incredible races where they've won. Well, they could have had a better day or that like they did.
 
Leighann Lovely  56:33
Right? The time could have been better. And you're like, wait, wait, you, you just you just ran a marathon, my girlfriend? My one girlfriend runs marathons. And I'm like, Why do you do this? And at the end of every race, she's like, I don't know why I do this.
 
Karley Cunningham  56:49
There's a certain running and writing distance where you get to the end, you're like, why do I do this? Right? You lose your why? Because your body's like, I'm so done with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  56:57
Right? Right. I, hey, two miles. That's my max. Like, and I did that only because I had to I was in the military. And it was like, you have to run two miles. Okay, great. I think it was at the time that I was, you know, required to do this. I did it in 17 Min. And I'm going to I'm going to boast about this in 17 minutes. And I think it was 58 seconds on a broken leg.
 
Karley Cunningham  57:18
Nice. So oh,
 
Leighann Lovely  57:22
I didn't know it was broken at the time that I started running, of course. But after I hit the finish line, I collapsed, at which point then they took me to med and med said, Here's your X Ray and I went with shit. It's broken. Yes, it is. You probably shouldn't walk on it. Probably should have told me that before I read the two miles but I won't anymore.
 
Karley Cunningham  57:44
Okay, point to my resilient my resilience comment, right? Like, just just go for it. Yeah, you're more resilient and you think you are.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:52
You can do anything you put your mind to.
 
Karley Cunningham  57:55
Absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:57
If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that? And
 
Karley Cunningham  58:02
you can find me on LinkedIn. That is the place which I socialize the most. So Carly Cunningham and gets Carly is spelled K A R L E Y. And Cunningham is just like you expect it to be. and my website is big, bold brand.com
 
Leighann Lovely  58:18
Excellent. And I will have that in the show notes as well. So anybody can amazing there and check it out. So thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation. I truly
 
Karley Cunningham  58:26
So much fun. Hopefully those have left along with us. Yes.
 
Leighann Lovely  58:32
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/karleycunningham/
 
E-mail – karley@bigboldbrand.com
 
Wedsite – https://www.bigboldbrand.com/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, business, brand, company, call, leaving, shin splints, person, salesperson, problem, culture, bit, treating, guiding principles, years, adrenal fatigue, purpose, hr, work, imagine

Episode 10 - Julie Miller Davis - Lifelong Trainer

Julie Miller Davis is a lifelong educator, that took a different direction when she wanted to dedicate more time with her family and eventually found her way back into education on a different platform. She now runs her own successful business owner, as a speaker, and productivity training with JMD.   
 
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
It's gonna be a great conversation today. I have a award winning productivity and efficiency expert Julie Miller Davis, she brings a fresh perspective on avoiding overwhelm and reaching goals in an intentional manner. She trains business owners how to live and work their highest level of efficiencies, guiding her clients to reset to patterns of excellence, leaving mediocracy in the dust. Julie's out of the box thinking knowledge on how to say yes to what is important, and no to what is not an ability to help and help regain control of your pursuit of your goals makes her one to watch in the world of productivity, prioritizing and efficiency. Her background in teaching, leadership and entrepreneurial ship has shaped her into an expert speaker and trainer she is today. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to talk with you.
 
Julie Miller Davis  02:13
Thank you for having me, Leighann. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:17
So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Julie Miller Davis  02:20
Um, so I am Julie Miller Davis, that's my professional name. It came about quite accidentally because Julie davis.com was not available. So my husband I started bouncing around what it could be and and trying all these different things on the URLs and and so then I just put in my middle name and it became JMD productivity training and now a lot of people call me JMD. And so it's pretty, it's pretty funny. But no, I am, I was a high school teacher. I grew up in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I've always been a Colorado girl except the two years that I left my first few years teaching and to high school English for almost 20 years before having my son and then left teaching to teach to raise him and when he went to school, just started figuring out what else was out there and eventually landed at a place where I could still teach but not be involved in politics or having a boss or a bell schedule or anything like that. And took a lot of the concepts and principles that I used in my classroom, as well as at a leadership ranch that I volunteered at for 20 years and melded them into a curriculums and different things, programs and classes that I put together for entrepreneurs and women business owners, mostly women, business owners, a few good men, and mostly women.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:56
Awesome. That's great. So you started out as you said, What grade were you teaching? High School?
 
Julie Miller Davis  04:04
So nine through 12?
 
Leighann Lovely  04:05
Yeah. Okay. Well, that's awesome to be able to go from, you know, high school kids to now, adults, which I'm sure was definitely an interesting transition, because, you know, you've got the young minds too. Now, you've got people who are already kind of, I guess, that would be really different people who are already kind of set in their ways.
 
Julie Miller Davis  04:31
That's true. Yeah, that's true. And, um, you know, in my introduction, you talked about that I reset people's habits and patterns, they can get the right things done and so, um, yeah, set in your ways is why a lot of us are stuck or in trouble or not doing the things that we should be doing and so it's digging into that and setting setting new habits around it. We don't I don't really believe we ever break habits, their habits, right? They're ingrained in us we can, we can form new ones. And when the old ones rear their ugly heads, we can say, hey, I don't, I don't do that like that anymore. This is what I do now. But yeah, the interesting thing is, you know, kids, they're, you know, they're there a lot of times a hostile audience, right, they have to be there. And they do have to learn what you teach them, because they are going to have a test at the end. But, you know, working with entrepreneurs has just been fantastic. Because most entrepreneurs are hungry, to learn, hungry to improve, and for information, and so sometimes to their detriment, you know, it's kind of we are, we're learning, learning ourselves to death without implementation. And my company is all about implementation. And so it's a, it's not teaching necessarily, brand new information. It's more about how can I help reset your patterns, and your habits so that you can actually implement all these great ideas, and all these great concepts and all these great things that you have been gathering? And do something with all that information?
 
Leighann Lovely  06:17
Right, you make such a valid point, there, we there are a lot of people out there who say, Well, I'm a lifelong learner, I love to learn, I love to learn, but what is the point of learning all of this information, if it's simply going to be stuck in your head, and then never put to work in the real world if you never implement that, so I could, I could go out and read every single book and retain all of that information, but it means nothing. If I never use that information, to better myself to like, I could go read emotional intelligence 100 times over. But if I just simply read it, and don't truly, you know, take that information in and then try to, you know, utilize that information for my own benefit, right. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything. Right. Right. So wow, that's, that's awesome. That's, that's amazing. So you are in and you mentioned this, I've mentioned this already, but you're the co founder of JMD.
 
Julie Miller Davis  07:21
Productivity training?
 
Leighann Lovely  07:23
Yes. Let me say that, again, you are the founder of JMD. Productivity training. Tell me how you, you know, you and you kind of said this, but tell me how you started it. But what was the main driver that really said, hey, I want to do this, I want to go out on my own, I want to start a business. You know, what was the trigger that because it's hard, it's really hard. It is hard, it's very hard.
 
Julie Miller Davis  07:53
It's very hard. And if you're in the right space, and doing the right thing, it's also very fun, right? Because you are hopefully pursuing something that you love. And for me, so then what I did before this is I had a home based business, you know, selling a product, and growing a team and all of that. And what I love the most about that was my team and leading them and helping them and teaching them. And what also happened was there were other leaders in my organization that kept coming to me and asking me how I was doing what I was doing working, I was only working three days a week because my son was in elementary school, the whole point of the whole thing was that I would have some income to supplement for our family while raising our son. And through elementary school, especially because you know, once they get to middle and high school, you never really see them much. So I just started really thinking about how when I was going to these leadership retreats and things and doing these trainings on basically calendaring is where it all started. I started really thinking about the fact that I did not want to sell, you know, do these home parties and sell products. I mean, that's not my end game. It was something to get my son through elementary school and to and to supplement our income. But I really started listening to people around me, women because I was networking mostly with women. I was hearing this pain point of I'm so busy, I'm stuck. I'm I'm can't I'm trying to do all the things and I can't get anything done. You know, I just kept hearing these same phrases over and over and over again. And I'm so stressed out I'm not sleeping like you know all the things. And so I started thinking about it. How the fact that the way that I operate on a daily basis is not how most people operate. And, you know, we never know, sometimes we don't know, we have gifts that we have, right? And so not that I'm perfect, I want to be perfectly clear to all the listeners, I have all kinds of slips where I have to look at myself and say, Okay, what would I tell myself to do here? Because I am underwater at the moment, you know, and so, um, but I just really I, and I, as as my background is, as a teacher, I am I am a teacher at heart, it is not something I did it is it is truly like who I am. And so how can I use that gift of being a teacher? And the gifts that I had around prioritizing, and around proactive thinking? How can I use that to create something to help help women do things differently? And, and so I just started digging into how I read. The Seven Habits of Highly Effective teens is something that I taught for a long time. So how did I take that, and turn it into something for entrepreneurs. Without it, you know, a twist on it, and parts of it. And then I had some other other trainings that I had been through that I wanted to integrate into my curriculum. And so I created a curriculum for a program. And, then other things were born out of that, but it's, it's been a journey, and definitely a journey. But it's been amazing and has allowed me all kinds of freedom, and, and has helped so many women and men change, change how they do things.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:01
So let me ask you this part, in your training, what are some of the key things that you hit on? You know, you're talking about helping men and women get, you know, kind of unstuck. And in that curriculum and without giving obviously, I don't want you to, you know, give away your your product, give away your your trainings, but what are some of the key things that you
 
Julie Miller Davis  12:23
Um, well, one of the things that we do is, is largely around calendar with a lot of people come to me in the, in the beginning for calendar. And it's because they're, they have no system, really, of how they're going about, or they have this full calendar, and they have this to do list of things that need to get. And so how, how are these things going to get done when my calendar is booked from eight to eight, you know? And so a lot of the work I do is around number one, how do we create space in the calendar, so that you have room to breathe room to take a break room to do some of these things on your to do list. And then, um, I don't know if you've heard my my talk, one of the talks I give is all around prioritizing with power. And so I talked about the it's basically about navigating your to do list, because the to do list is never done. There's always one more thing to do. And, and so that task list taking that and how do we integrate it with the calendar? But also how do we decide what's important and what's not. And I have my 3d system, have the do it, delegate it or dump it. And anyone who's heard me talk can will roll that they're like, Oh, I heard Julie talk six years ago, do delegate dump. Right, like so that's one of the core principles, but then we also really dig into the habit of proactivity. And how are we proactive? How can we actually do things differently than we've been doing them? And what part are we playing in being in our own stuckness in our own way, and identifying that and helping people unravel that because we're in it, and when you're in it, you can't, you can't see it? You know, it's like being so close to a tree in the forest that you can't see your feet and can't see the path. And so it's a lot about that. Yeah, and that's, that's such a true statement. Other people can see, other people can recognize, but you yourself are completely unaware. And it's amazing how easy it is to fall down that path to to become completely paralyzed because of the amount of things that you and you would think, well, you've got so many things to do is to just start chipping away at them.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:47
Right? But you become so overwhelmed and so stressed out that all of a sudden you're like, I don't even know where to begin. Where do I start? I just And unfortunately, that is that is a real thing is completely real thing. Wow. Okay, so let's let's talk about now you have you have a team of you. So let's, let's talk about that how many, how many people are on your team.
 
Julie Miller Davis  15:14
Um, I have six people on my team, I have three that are monthly, like on a monthly stipend with me. And then I've got three others who areon an as needed basis, like my event planner, although I do meet with her probably every single month. And then I've got a photographer and I've got a videographer that are kind of my as needed basis. And they're, they're definitely involved in a lot of things in my business. But the three that are my staples that I really can't live without, are my my virtual assistant, my assistant, I don't even call him right, but she's just my assistant, but she lives far away. And my project manager, and my web slash, social media, marketing.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:09
So you know, it's one thing to be, you know, a solo ponuer, but it's a whole nother thing to go out on your own and then build a team. And then to keep that team happy. And to work with the mix, especially when it comes to a virtual team, having a Virtual Employee anywhere, you know, being able to work and to have them be an assistant is extremely difficult. Because typically, those individuals have to be very, very in tune with, with you, you have to be very in tune with them understanding, you know, what you need, understanding what you have to get. So, how did you go about building this team? And how do you continue to keep a cohesive working team together?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:09
Awesome.
 
Julie Miller Davis  16:09
Yeah.
 
Julie Miller Davis  16:58
It's a good question. Um, no, I think there's a lot of a lot of people who work with me are doing it everything on their own. And by the time they're done working with me, they are ready to delegate, they're ready to hire. But they've also figured out if if anyone takes my my free challenges that I run a couple times a year, they figure out, there's a lot of things they can delegate that doesn't, it doesn't cost him money to delegate, they can, you know, there's people that live in your house, a lot of times that you can but there's also other things that you can get off your plate without having to pay anybody a huge amount of money, you can pay your neighbor's daughter to do some of these things, or whatever, you know, babysitting money, kind of kind of stuff. But um, you know, I started out I think my business was, I want to say a year old. When I hired really hired, I hired a gal earlier and that my neighbor's daughter, I hired to do some CRM stuff where she was inputting just inputting emails for me into my CRM, but I hired a gal just, you know, $300 at a time, and when that $300 ran out, she said, hey, it's time to re up, we've used your 10 hours, or whatever it was that we were, you know, using them. And I would just, I just kind of kept her on retainer that way, but not monthly, it was just kind of hourly. And about a year after that, it was every month, I'm paying you this much money to do the work and, she was really my only person besides just web maintenance that I had, and I had to have web payments, and oh, no, I also had a social media. I started out as someone who just was posting one time a week, it was not very much money. And then I a year after that went to someone who posted three times a week and then changed over to another gal now who does all my marketing, she does my ads, she does my social, she manages you know, all kinds of things in my, in my marketing world. And what I want to stress is that, and I don't have the same assistant anymore, I outgrew her, and what I needed was no longer what she did. She's like, you know, and she wanted to because she loves me. She's like, Yeah, I can do that. And then it wasn't happening. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I just think that you wanted to say yes to me, because you love me and we have a great relationship. And it's time it's time for us to part ways and it was with love. Like there was no damage to the relationship. It was I needed something different and something more and so, um, and then when I got this year I I hired my project manager. My life is like, oh, you know, I'm like, Hey, guys, can we do this and like, oh, already done. We talked yesterday. I'm like, my team, but I what you brought up was about how it's all about communication it's all about first of all, are the people you're hiring in alignment with what you deem as important is their definition of excellence, the same as your definite definition of excellence is their definition of communication, the same as your definition of communication. And I'm, I'm high in communication, if you're low in communication, you probably need to hire someone high and communication, because otherwise, you're going to be frustrated, they're going to be frustrated, and it's not going to work. But I really think Leighann, if you can run a team in such a way that you're also involving them with each other, and you're taking yourself out as the middleman sometimes, and let them create relationships and trust with each other. And then if they have questions come to you, and you meet with them, I meet with each of my team members. Two of them, I meet once a week, one of them I meet once a month, and then the three of them meet once a month. And sometimes I'm called into that meeting. Sometimes I'm not, you know, but there's constant communication. And, and we use a tool, we use Slack to communicate as a team, so the emails don't get lost because emails get lost. So now we've got all of our communication in one spot. And it's amazing. And it's an it's a journey, like, I'm, I'm in my eighth year of business. And so you know, Patience, my friends is the key. And learning from your learning, and being willing to let people go when it's time to let them go and let yourself grow when it's time to grow.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:47
That's awesome. And you're right, communication is 100%. Key, if you don't know what the right hand, you know, if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, you're gonna fail 100% of the time. Yeah, right. So yeah, you, that's awesome. That's absolutely awesome, too. It's a rarity to be able to find a team. That works. So, you know, awesome, together all of the time and be be able to, excuse me, and be able to, you know, understand each other understand how each other works. It's becoming more and more common. Now, people are working virtually. And so is your whole team. Virtual yeah, my whole team is virtual. Awesome. Yep.
 
Julie Miller Davis  22:41
I have one in Ohio. One in Wisconsin, one in Washington. Yep. And then my videographer and my photographer here in Colorado Springs. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's great. So one in Wisconsin, Hey, 111. Here, and then my states? Yes. So my, my event planners in Utah? Yeah, I have them all. Everywhere. But you know, the other thing, I think land for everybody to get along. And and for the team to communicate well together? It really it will come from people's leadership. So it comes from number one, have you or have I given each person? What what is the expectation of, of their role in the company? Like, what? What is their? What is their bubble? And what is someone else's bubble? And a lot of times, they're very good at asking questions. I'm like, I never never get mad. If you ask me a question like, hey, is this something I should be doing? Can we have a call, because I'm not really sure if this is my job or such as those job. And so, you know, there's they're always very open to asking questions. And I'm open to the questions. And then, you know, going back to the other thing that I said, if you are hiring people, because you have, again, that clear definition of what is x, what are your values? Are they in alignment with those values? What is your definition of how of excellence in your company? And are they going to serve in that way? You know, and I am very blessed that my team is is the way they are because it's not and when I brought my project manager in, I wasn't sure you know, now that someone else is giving some directives. How's that gonna go? And it went so well. And I and I know it doesn't always right. And I think I've laid so much foundation, it really helped.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:40
And you said something that I think is extremely important for people to understand alignment. You have to make sure after you've set down your expectations and you've sat down what your needs and wants are, is that person in alignment with you? Do they you know, are their goals are there extra? Rotations are their needs once, you know, for the direction that they want to, you know, go moving forward in alignment with you. And I think that, you know, if that all is is lining up for everybody on the team, then then yeah, it makes sense. And everybody's going to be going or rowing in the same direction. It's when somebody all of a sudden decides, no, I think we should be doing this, that, you know, it stops working. And that's when you know, you have to be aware that maybe it is time for that person to move on or, you know, grow to another role. Because you're not going to be able to continue to all move in the same direction all the time. Eventually, people do want to maybe move on grow, or, but it's great to have everybody right now rowing in the right direction. And hopefully, for the long term, right. That's, that's everybody's dream is to continue to do that together.
 
Julie Miller Davis  25:58
Right. Yeah. And, and, and it's not always realistic, either, that we'll all be together, you know, right, ever. And people outgrow people and or the Yeah, are they just decide to go on to a whole other direction any like from teaching high school students owning their own business?Like that.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:25
So you're you are, you're also a speaker for the women entrepreneurs. And on your LinkedIn post, it says that you are an out of the box thinker with real world pragnatism so tell me about that. What does that mean?
 
Julie Miller Davis  26:33
So it kind of goes back to what we said earlier today, where I'm, I'm on the outside looking in. And so it's, it's that whole thing, where how many times are you going to try to do the same thing over and over in the same way and get an expect to get a different result, right sanity, and sanity. Um, and it's my job to first of all, be able to look at it from an outside perspective and help start asking questions that will solve the problem that will get you through the wall, or whatever it is that you're up against and to teach you how to do that for yourself, to teach these entrepreneurs how to do that for themselves. And so my out of the box thinking is really about bringing in a new perspective that kind of takes that 30,000 foot view or whatever you want to call it. And, and because of the way that I am that I problem solve, because of the way that I teach people to problem solve, I'm able to look at things from different angles in and, you know, again, it's not rocket science, and it's not where I can't believe how many times people say to me, Oh, well, this seems so simple. Why can't I Why couldn't I just see it? And I'm like, well, it is simple. And it's not simple. And I talk about this stuff, every single day, like, this is my job.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:11
Right? Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest things to see.
 
Julie Miller Davis  28:16
Yeah. You're not looking at it every day. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it and talking about it every single day. And so, you know, through eight years, I'm I'm better and better at it. Because it's, it's what I eat, you know, live and breathe, right? It goes back to the old you know, have you ever walked into somebody's house and you notice, you know, there's paint peeling on the wall, or there's, you know, hole in the carpet? And you're like, how do they live like this? You know, it's it's horrible. And then you and then you start to realize, wow, they live like this. They've accepted it. And now they don't see it anymore. They don't see it. That is so funny, because I bring up an analogy that people crack up at every so often because it's like, when you have a really bad smell in your refrigerator. And you can't stand it and you can't figure it out. And pretty soon you don't even notice it anymore. Because it's it's just there.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:10
Right? Right. You become nose blind to it. There have been there have been times where I've had friends walk into my house, and I'm like, How does my house smell? Like, it smells fine. I'm like, okay, great. Because I don't want to be one of those people. And I just got a puppy too. So, you know, like, I have an extremely heightened sense of smell. But again, I'm just like anybody else if you smell something for so long, but there was one day that I walked out of my bedroom, and in the morning I walked into where the puppy is craters. And I was like, oh my god, like what is that smell? Like oh my god, he must have had an accident or something in his crate and I walked over no and no accident and I'm just like, Oh, my God, the dog smells like this. Oh my god. So I ripped you know, everything out of his crate. I threw everything in the washing machine. I threw him in the bath. And I'm like, and then I think it was like six hours later, my husband had been gone. And he comes home and he goes, what? He walks in the house. He goes, What is that smell? I'm like, it's still there. I'm like, seriously, it's still there. I washed the dog. I washed everything in his crate. Where's that smell coming from? Well, it just hadn't like, aired out of the house. Okay, but isn't that everybody's fears? Like somebody walks in your house. And they go, Oh, God. Oh, you guys live like this?
 
Julie Miller Davis  30:30
You live this? It's the same. It's the same principle, you know? And to have someone be able to look at it from look at what what's keeping you stuck? Or where, where you're having an issue, from an outside perspective, to walk into the house and go whoa, what, what is that? You know? And, and kind of, you're kind of the person who walks into somebody's brain and says, whoa, what is that?
 
Leighann Lovely  31:05
Let's, unravel that ball of wax, shall we? Yeah.
 
Julie Miller Davis  31:09
And it's just moving people from this feeling of or reality of mediocrity, because they're just surviving, right? They're just trying to make it through the day, I got all this stuff to do, I have all these appointments, I have all these calls to make I have this whole to do list. I've got a family to take care of, you know, all the things. I've got a household to run. And it's, it's how do we make space for that? And how do I create instead of survival? Because they're trying to survive it? How do we make it so that it's thriving, like there's joy instead of drudgery?
 
Leighann Lovely  31:49
Yeah, that's awesome. So, uh, you, you are obviously your speaker. So tell me a little bit more about, you know, some of your speaking engagements. And I mean, you know, obviously, you have an event planner. So I'm assuming that your event planner helps you.
 
Julie Miller Davis  32:05
I have a I have an event that I run every year in October, and but we work all year on It's, a three day or it's like a half day, full day half day event that we run that's hybrid. So we do, some people come in person, and we broadcast to other people. So you don't have to fly here. But it's awesome if you do. And so we work a lot on that. And that is where people can get a whole entire overview of every thing that I do. And everything that I teach, and they walk away and I'm a teacher, so you're not you're not just gathering, I'm not a lecturer, you're gathering information, I'm telling you, you're practicing it, you're talking about it, you're sharing about it, and then you leave with a plan. And so even if you you know, don't end up staying with me for the short term or the long term, you have something to walk away with that is very very implementable at the end of that event, but mostly I speak Leighann to,I speak on prioritizing. I speak on call it solve unsolvable problems, which is being proactive. And I speak on focusing and and I have another talk called commit to courage. And I speak all over all over the the North America really and mostly to women's groups to a few conferences and mostly to just get the word out about me to gain some following your followers and followings and to help as many people as possible and I give away free stuff and and hope that they engage with me and hope it's helpful and and then we see where it goes. And so there's there's not a lot of big, you know, I'm not on a lot of big stages. I'm not getting big money for it. It's not where I make my it's not where I make my living. But I sure enjoy getting in front of as many people as possible, and helping them have just some aha buzz around what they do.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:27
Right. That's awesome. I've always, you know, I've always thought and dreamed about you know, getting up in front of, you know, a group of people and doing something like that and never I don't think I ever will. I think there's a there's that that little voice in the back of my head that says nope, probably not going to do that. I probably start shaking and have to walk off the stage. It's not for the faint of heart.
 
Julie Miller Davis  35:00
It's not and I battled with stage fright for a long time. And you would have thought with being a teacher that I wouldn't have that. But, you know, I got a captive audience and I have a captive audience in a classroom, and they have to know what I'm teaching them because there's a test. Right? And you get burnt out, you get in front of a room of people, let's say a corporation, a corporate office brought me in to speak. They could be hostile, they don't, they might not want to be there. You know, or why, why do they need to listen to me? Or why is this relevant, but after a while, you just learn. You've I've got something to share, and it's relevant, and it's good. And, and I'm fairly entertaining. So hopefully, I capture them and give them one little thing that they can take away and implement.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:48
So yeah, no, that's great. That's awesome. See, you you started the business when your son was in middle in middle school. Oh, in middle school. Okay. So he's now he's got to be graduated high school and what is he college now?
 
Julie Miller Davis  36:08
He is not in college right now. He stayed home and he's working and he needs to leave the house. I will, I will tell you all in confidence so we're, working through that he's moving, and going to get a job up in Wyoming where his his best friends are in school right now. So yeah, he's graduated. He is not out of the house.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:43
You know, what I do? We actually we talked about this before, I do remember that. So yeah. So he is decided what to do defer school for, for the time being or not to do school for right now, which is, hey, I'm, I am a advocate of learning. I am an advocate of, of educating yourself. But I don't necessarily believe that you have to do a traditional college in order to do that.
 
Julie Miller Davis  37:07
So neither do i Neither do I. And I just, you know, I want him to find something that he loves. And I think that you have to have an education in some fashion, like you have to have training in whatever you're doing, whether you're whether you're working at a restaurant or retail or whether you're in the military, I mean at all at all, there's training for all of it, whether you're a sales on the sales floor for any, you know, a car, a car dealership, or whatever. And so I think it's just around i We are not tied at all to him going to a four year school or anything like that. It's, it's more about, let's find something that you love, and how do we how do we help you? Or how do you help yourself? Do that? To the best of your ability?
 
Leighann Lovely  38:00
So are you delegating some of your work to him? On No.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:10
No, it's, it's it is more of a love
 
Julie Miller Davis  38:12
Excellence is not my definition of a level of excellence.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:16
He needs more life experience before you're okay. Okay. Yes.
 
Julie Miller Davis  38:20
No, he is not the he is not the person I would give anything that needs attention to detail or anything. But but but I will say this, he grocery shops for me. So I do delegate that stuff. So he goes to the grocery store, he loves going to the grocery store and comes home and has everything on the list. And he might call me a couple times while he's there, but I didn't have to go there. You know, and I hate grocery shopping. So that's good.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:49
You and I are like minded and now. I will clean all the toilets in the house. But don't send me to the grocery store.
 
Julie Miller Davis  38:59
Yeah, yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  39:00
I can't stand. I'm one of those people that like speed walks to the grocery store and literally will just throw whatever I can in the cart that is edible. Because I want to get out of there as quickly as possible. I come home and my husband goes What did you buy? And I'm like, food.
 
Julie Miller Davis  39:17
Food Don't eat me.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:21
Yeah, like we have food to eat. Okay. Yeah, I am not a fan of the grocery store. Neither neither. Well, we are coming to time. So I have the question of the season. Okay, if you could go back to your younger self and give your self advice. When would you go back and what advice would you give yourself?
 
Julie Miller Davis  39:46
Oh. I think that. I knew this question was coming in. It's, it's a it's a thinker. So, I really think that it comes back down to something that I said earlier, which is that we really need patience. We need patience in all things. We need patience, and finding the right partner. We need patience, like life partner, we need patience in, in growing up and learning who we are. And in this business, definitely need patience. Because like, we're just always in a hurry, and we want. We want everything now. And our kids, they get everything now. Right? Everything is. So right now. And so I would probably go back to some time in my 20s and just say, you know, what, just be patient Don't be in a hurry. And it applies to so many things in this business. My gosh, being a business owner is not for anybody that's in a hurry.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:08
Yeah, that is definitely something that if I could go back to myself and maybe my 25 year old self, I would try to try to drill that into my my younger self. That's a good one. That's a very good one. Yeah. And try to drill that in to my 10 year old self to Yeah, yeah.
 
Julie Miller Davis  41:36
No kidding.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:37
My daughter. Get in the car. Are we almost there? We've been in. We've been in half 10 minutes. It's a four hour drive fall asleep. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you and learn more about your October, did you say October event, October event or learn more about your services? How would somebody go about doing that?
 
Julie Miller Davis  42:05
They can find me on LinkedIn, which is just Julie Miller Davis, you can also find me at my website, which is Julie Miller, davis.com, and HTTPS, you know, Julie Miller davis.com. And you've got all the resources you need right there. If you want more about the event, you can actually go we have an event page that's unstuck event.com that you can go to and find more about that.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:32
Awesome. And, you know, this has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. Today. I will have your the way to reach out to you in the show notes. So if somebody's interested in reaching out to Julie, you can please check the show notes then that will be listed in there. But again, Julie, thank you so much for your time today.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:51
Thank you so much, Leighann. I just really appreciate you having me. Yeah. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/juliemillerdavis
 
Website - https://juliemillerdavis.com
                https://juliemillerdavis.com/unstuck-the-event/
 
Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/          
 
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, julie, delegate, walk, hired, event planner, learn, team, training, awesome, excellence, teaching, year, helping, smell, thinking, grocery store, speak, questions, business owner

Episode 9 - Wanda Fox - People, Food, and Conversation

Wanda Fox is a true entrepreneur who left corporate life, ran a flower farm, and now has a successful grazing table catering business that offers her the ability to get to know people and have great conversations that allows her to service her clients and grow her network the way she loves to. Join me to hear about Wanda’s journey.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Wanda Fox is a people person she loves to entertain. So her passion really falls with people food and conversation. She likes to know what makes people tick, and what their talents and gifts are sharing your story is a form of therapy. She found that if you engage people in conversation, especially over food, it relaxes them, and conversation flows. After following her passions, she found her way to starting her grazing table catering business using high end artisan products. Along with that she makes her own black walnut charcuterie boards to showcase the food food became her artistic outlet, she uses food as her painter's palette. However, in between all of this, she also worked in a public school setting, there more than ever is where she saw in the younger generation and young adults, a need for something to reduce stress and anxiety. And in 2018, Wanda started researching mental wellness, and found the company, Amari global, the mental wellness company. This brought all of her passions together today to talk to her about her journey to where she is today. Wanda, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited to talk with you about your journey and where you are now. So thank you.
 
Wanda Fox  02:35
Hi, Leighann, It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:39
Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself?
 
Wanda Fox  02:45
Well, as we talked before, and my passions are kind of twisted, but they do have a pattern. My passions are people food, and conversations. So with that, I like to find out what makes people tick. And in order to find out what makes them tick, you have to engage them in conversation. And oftentimes by conversation of around food that kind of opens the door.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:15
I love that because you're absolutely correct it Yeah. You get a you gets you what what is it the old saying the old added adage, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach,
 
Wanda Fox  03:30
Your stomach, I think that might be a little bit true.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:36
Yeah, absolutely. You get you get some great food and you know, great conversation going never hurts to have a really good glass of wine in your hand or a great beer, whatever your your preferences. And yeah, the conversation definitely flows. So you and with that being said, you, you actually have an event catering company, Fox and company. Why don't you tell me a little bit about that?
 
Wanda Fox  04:05
Well, ironically enough, I don't appear that way now, but as a young adult, and as a young kid, I was incredibly shy, painfully shy. So now I kind of gravitate towards that person that I see standing on the sidelines extremely uncomfortable, which is in the ground would swallow them up. And I found because I love to host in my own kitchen. 60 people in my kitchen doesn't rattle me. But if you bring that shy person into the kitchen and give them a job, you can see the inclusion and you can see their shyness and their it just go down. So I love food. I love preparing food. I love everything about it. And it took me a long time to decide on the grazing table concept, but that kind of pulls my creativity talents together. And it was the wow factor. And that is what, boy from technology and on our phones, I'm like, I want something that will cause people to come into the room and go, Wow, look at that. And then you start engaging over food. And then the conversation starts.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:21
Right. And often, you know, the beginning of that conversation or our, you know, the openers, the starters. But as the evening goes on, those conversations become more and more authentic.
 
Wanda Fox  05:35
Absolutely correct. Or if not, right, then they lead to a friendship, where that will develop.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:41
Right, awesome. So how long have you been doing doing that?
 
Wanda Fox  05:46
Actually started in 2015. And the reason I wanted to go into that actually was a flower farmer. And I did use that for my therapy as well. But I wanted something that was more lasting than that. I did classes on that there was a long story to that. And I'm like, I want something that is more encompassing. And that's why I finally went into the grazing table concept. And my vision was an old world painting where you see these tables just laden with food. Like, that's what I want to do. So it took me a while to pull that out of my brain. And then I started making my own big serving boards, I'm like, This is what I want to do is create food became my painter's palette.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:38
That's, that's awesome. And you know, right now I'm starting to get hungry. And I'm starting to think, oh, wow, I wish I could see a picture of what this looks like. Because, you know, you walk into these elaborate, you know, parties, or you walk into these, and the grazing table now is the the really popular excite well, I shouldn't say it before the pandemic, that was, you know, the thing that everybody loved, unfortunately, the pandemic kind of slowed that down a little bit. I think it's now coming back, where everybody loves to just be able to walk up, grab a couple of things, and you have that huge selection of all of these different and people stand around and talk.
 
Wanda Fox  07:21
Yeah, they do. And the fun part about this is, when you're served to plate and sit down dinner, you know exactly what you have. And you just again, but with a grazing table, the whole concept was how do I put this together? So I walk through it, it's a pairing of foods, different flavors, different textures, I show them how to put it together. That's kind of the conversation, the engaging part. That's what gets people to start talking. And then they're like, Oh, my goodness, I would not in these foods. That's what opens the door.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:57
That's awesome. Now you mentioned you were, you're also a flower farmer.
 
Wanda Fox  08:03
I was I thought I could do it all. But I did do that for several years, I designed for my own design work, also sold on some high end farmers markets over on the North Shore. And that's when I just really, really started understanding the need for some form of therapy using your hands. Then it's hand mind coordination. And then out of that came the adding in the other component of the food.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:35
So okay, you said you thought you could do it. So I don't even know what it what is a flower farmer? Look, what does that look like?
 
Wanda Fox  08:43
Okay, so if you buy flowers, you probably go into a shop and buy them. And that's, that's there. So I grew up on a farm in Virginia. And I wanted to gravitate to I never wanted to be on a farm when I was a kid at home, and then I left and my commercial work corporate work to me away from that. But flower farming is well just think about this year, if I had had to do flower farming this year is cold and wet, it would have been really difficult. And then that involves bringing in your greenhouses, which I was not growing greenhouses at that time. So it's a lot of preparing the land, same as farmers. It's doing a lot of seed work, it's doing a lot of transplant work. You think taking care of a dog is a lot making sure the food and water taking care of a flower farm because then you have to be so careful of insects and bugs and but I raised them organically. So I did graze on them because I wanted them on the table. So Wow. But there was a beauty and that because I grew them. I designed them. I sold them I interacted with my end customer. So there was a story in that from Field to Table. And I knew the whole story
 
Leighann Lovely  10:00
Okay, so the here's Fun, fun facts. So I have a friend who is actually lives on a farm and he he sells flowers every year. And when I went in to buy my flowers this I go out to buy my flowers from him now. And it's like an hour drive. But you know, I'm dedicated to supporting, you know, obviously my my network, my friends, you know that. And when I walked in there, he had these little pods. And I'm like, what are those? He's like, Oh, those are praying mantis pods. And I'm like, interesting. And he goes, Yeah, and and I saw him all over. I'm like, Why? Why do you have so many of these? And so what you just said growing organic, you have to get rid of the bugs you have to see, because do you want one of those? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I do. So I'm assuming that you probably did things like that. Right.
 
Wanda Fox  10:53
Like it's a farmer's friend. Yes. Yeah. But then the other thing is, depending on what your soil is, your soil lends a lot to that. So there's a there's a whole education process behind that. Yeah, I grew up on a crop farm and a dairy farm. So we weren't so concerned about the end product looking perfect with a dahlia with no insect bites in it. So yeah, it gets, it got kind of tricky,
 
Leighann Lovely  11:22
Right? Yeah. So no, I'm gonna have hopefully, I'll have, you know, and it was one of those pods anywhere from 50 to 250. He said, like, what am I going to do with but apparently that's, you know, one of those pods produces, and it'll cut back on the amount of you're right that, you know, my dahlias, I have dahlias, that, you know, I actually have to get those in the ground. I finally can, again, but all my, you know, flower and I look at him. And I'm like, Oh, they're so beautiful. Except they've got bug holes, you know?
 
Wanda Fox  11:58
Yeah. And then the other thing, we had a lot of honeybee hives around us, so we had a lion prairie land. So things that I supported the honey bees,
 
Leighann Lovely  12:08
Right? Oh, how fun. So okay, yeah, so you went from Flower farming now to, you know, your catering company. And now you are you're engaged in another very interesting that lens again, because I'm hearing a common thread in everything that you're you're kind of talking about things that are are helping with the mental health, the doing something with your hands, that's also create, you know, create creative, there we go getting that word out. These are all things that are lending to your mental health things that are keeping you busy and kind of in a healing way. So now you, you your most recent you are with Amari global. So tell me, you know, who were they and, and what are you doing with them.
 
Wanda Fox  13:01
So it does look ironic that I've cut up ping pong all over the place. But you're right, there is really a common thread going through that. And that came from my own background, my own history mon health, I am a mom, I have two adult children. So we learn a lot. When we raise our own children, I did work in an education system. So I got to see everything in mental wellness, from the kid that was crushing it to the kid that needed assistance to special needs. So then I learned there is a common thread running through the mental wellness. We all have it, it does not discriminate. And oftentimes we hide behind a facade. But then after doing my own research, and I was basically a holistic person I grew up on our own food that we grew on the farm. And we think we are doing the best we can in the system and societies that we're in. But nonetheless, our gut needs a little bit more nutrition that we're we're giving it and then that is when I learned that directly affected the brain. But I didn't know all of that it went back to me having a compassion for people and people that felt lost and were looking for solutions. And that is when I learned that there was a whole lot more to mental wellness than what I thought. And oftentimes we think of mental wellness or mental health is somebody that deals with mental health concerns. But mental health can be anything from distress and anxiety that can go out into the classroom. There can be underlining cursors or precursors I should say from perhaps food sensitivity, but it can come it can manifest itself in many ways. And what I found if we address the root cause cause holistically, then we can, as we say, if you address the root cause and the gut brain microbiome, you can actually rewire the brain. And we've kind of proven that. And then I just became so fascinated with it. And like that, this helps me. And it's all about conversation. It's all about talking to people, well, then why can't I pull all three of these things together? So that's kind of what I did.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:28
So this is this company is, is this an all natural supplement or what what is?
 
Wanda Fox  15:36
Well, it's actually was built out of a passion of love. So Amari is Latin, and it does mean to live. So it was created by an incredibly successful businessman who fell through the cracks with his own health and well being after he built several billion billion dollar companies. So from that, he sought out the best minds in the industry to create a holistic product. So without going deep into it, we have no fillers, no sugars, no caffyns, no colors, no dyes. And we have a kid product. And that really became my passion is to work with the young children going into high school, going into college, where with my own children going into college, I saw the stressors. And I'm like, Well, what can I do to help that? How can I offset that, and then the passion just kept growing deeper. And without going deep into this, you know, where we are with suicide rates? And I'm like, what is causing that? How can my voice lend help and support to that? So that is why I became so passionate about that, and working with some other platforms around this, as well as like, I do have a solution, I do have something that will support. So I just incorporated that into more of my passions of who really is wonderfox? And what are your passions? And how can I help humanity? That maybe it's only a few people, but it's a ripple effect?
 
Leighann Lovely  17:19
Wow. Right? I go back to, you know, a saying that. And I'm probably going to say this wrong, because it's not in front of me, but I cannot help everyone, but one person can help someone. And if we all have that mind frame of, you know, just assisting with one person or trying to, you know, help just one person, we as you know, community as a society, we would be able to help give a lending hand would be able to make a difference in our world, our society. And you clearly have a passion. Are you open to talking a little bit more about where that driver comes from? Where, where did that originate? What, you know? Did you experience it yourself? Was there somebody in your family?
 
Wanda Fox  18:16
Well, I like to think we all have things in our back office that we don't put out there. But growing up and then as I got older, I learned a lot more about my background about my ancestors and things that they dealt with. And I'm like, wow, what if they had had these options? What if this had been available, and I will say a lot of this is based on ancient wisdom, and herbs. But what is bringing it to the forefront is modern day science. And that is where the two things are blending together. So with my own health, and then with, we're a family of four, we're all on the products. And we have just seen such massive changes within ourselves. And then the testimonials and the ones that speak to my heart the most are when we can bring a child in school struggling, we can bring them out, give them confidence, we can bring them from the back row to the front row, we can take the stress and the pressures on college athletes and college students alone is horrendous. And these days and it's like if we can give them something that we know will support them and make life easier. Make them crush their goals. For me myself. I lost a lot of weight. But the biggest thing I saw in myself was confidence. And it's like I've got this I know that I can go out there with my with my event raising tables. It's my passion. I don't need a stranger anymore. I'm no longer that kid that was shy leave me alone. Just let me and that's why I gravitate toward So I might be doing it in executives, I might be talking to a mom, again, I'm not that clinical person, I'm not that pharmacist, it's my passion. I've been there, I've walked that road, I think I have something that might help. So that's kind of what it is. And when you were talking about little cliches, and, you know, we say that to the world, you're one person, but to that one person, you're the world, right? And it's like, so who can I help today?
 
Leighann Lovely  20:31
Absolutely. Part of the reason that, you know, I created this podcast, part of the reason that I tell my story, I, part of the reason I talk about my story, which is I think, the reason you and I connected in the first place, is because I'm out there talking about my mental health, I'm out there talking about all of that stuff. My passion is to, to let people know that they're not alone in this. And if we were all able to follow our passions, I think that we would have a much more Well, as you, as you say, conversations, we'd have a lot more open, honest conversations with people. And if we were doing that, on a regular basis, I think that we would find that we are in a much happier open society. Of course, you know, there are always the, you know, the, the other side of that, that not everybody wants to have great conversations. But
 
Wanda Fox  21:35
Well, that's true. And you know, the world is a big place, there are a lot of people and can we reach everybody. But there's one thing that sticks out in my mind so much there was something that was on the news last year, very much. So it did not end well. But when I went back and watch those videos of leading up to the end, I saw hand signals of this young person. And I picked up on it, because it was that it wasn't a signal. Like a recognizable signal. But it was a signal of something that she was doing with her hand. And I'm like, I reckon that's fear. And I think what that's one of the things that I wanted to do is just put things out there to educate people to open their minds, broaden their horizons, to look for other options, other opportunities, other solutions. Maybe it's somebody that is desperately looking for a solution. But I think a lot of it is just listening and watching. And when the time is right. They'll approach you because you've opened the door for the conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:46
Right? Yep. So if somebody wanted to reach out for you reach out to you for well, your catering, your catering services, or for more information about Amari global, how would they go about doing that?
 
Wanda Fox  23:05
Okay, there's a couple of sites that I have to tell you this first, because you're from Wisconsin. Yeah. A lot. A lot of my product comes from Wisconsin. Oh, really? Yes. There's a lot of cheeses created in Wisconsin. Yes. There are. One company that I sourced my bacon from that is second to none. It goes on every table. So yes, Wisconsin is well represented on my grazing tables.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:31
Oh, well. So what is your reach? What were you where do you typically,
 
Wanda Fox  23:38
I'm in Northern Illinois. So I stretch into the city. Predominantly, the city was my area, and then I stretch up into the Lake Geneva area and into the northwest suburbs.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:51
Oh, okay. Lake Geneva? That's, that's right. In my backyard. Yeah. Right. It's not hard at all. No, not far at all.
 
Wanda Fox  24:00
But a lot of my clients have been downtown Chicago corporate companies.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:04
Right. Okay. Excellent. So, yeah, if somebody wanted to do you have a website and this is all going to be obviously on our on my show notes so that somebody could you know, take a look at the show notes and, and be able to find you there.
 
Wanda Fox  24:21
So the easiest place to find me for my catering. It's really simple. It's my last name, Fox fo X and company. So Fox letter in company.com. There's a story behind that name as well. I married the fox. So that's kind of my umbrella behind all of that. And then the easiest way to find me, Amari is I am on LinkedIn under one so I post a lot of educational information on there a lot of engagement. There's other ways ways to contact me, but they're all be interlinked.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:56
Yeah. Okay perfect. And like I said, I will post those in the shownotes, and everything else, so I have a question of the season that I am asking everybody. And this one, this question I find really interesting. Because I, there are times in my life where I think, if I could go back, would I change anything? What I what I and usually, I think, no, I would not change the trajectory or the path, but what I give myself advice, you know, to help myself so wildly interested to hear what your answer is, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back to and what advice would you give yourself?
 
Wanda Fox  25:49
It's easy to answer now. I'm older. And I know how painfully shy I was. So the first thing would be, get rid of that. You lose a lot of opportunities when you're so painfully shy. But learn to use your voice. Your voice is your power, as go back. And that's why I gravitate to that young person is. But I have the means now to know how to deal with that. But not to be so shy, the world won't gobble you up and learn to use your voice.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:29
That's great. And and you're you're very right. There's a lot of individuals out there that? Well, there's a lot of individuals out there that stay quiet on purpose, not necessarily because they're shy. But they are introverts by nature. They choose to listen more than they talk. My husband is one. And he's not shy. And then there are the individuals out there that are too shy. And I just want I have to be honest, I can't imagine you being a shy person. You were just told to change. Yes, I know. But and then there are the individuals who are truly shy and and given the opportunity. I have met, obviously, individuals from all walks of life, given the opportunity for the for them, or if they were given the opportunity, saying this all wrong. But let me try again. If they were given the the opportunity, they're so wildly brilliant, many of them are so wildly brilliant. They're just under recognized because they don't have that. Well, I've just never been a shy person. So I don't know what they what they don't.
 
Wanda Fox  27:50
Well, you mentioned something about your husband not being shy, but he likes to listen, well, I do find that that is incredibly valuable, right, we need to listen. But in the Listening is when you learn the questions to ask to draw them out. And then when you start drawing them out, when you talk about them being brilliant, and incredibly shy. When you find their passion and their trigger points, then you literally something like that can change the trajectory of someone's life. It's like, wow, she really believed in me, I really can't do that. And I think that's the passion behind everything I do, is drawing that person out, to believe in themselves. And to find that confidence. And it's not. It's not always an easy job to do. It's, it's a process. But that's my passion. And then I see the end results. And I can see what happens. There's this young man, I know he was incredibly shy all through school. He grew into college, and from college, he went on to manage a $28 million job. And that same young man is going to be road tripping now for three or four months. He's like every goal I set, I crushed I met it. And so that's the growth that you want to see in a person and it's because you believed in them. And you encourage them and you gave them the tools and the confidence to get there.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:28
Right. Right. Completely. And you know, again, going back to my husband, he's he's a complete introvert but you put him behind a DJ stand. He DJs he does hip hop, he scratches, he does hip hop. He also does weddings, and you put him behind there and he's like us he's got like a split personality completely, like alive and he's in his room of like, I know I'm good at that. And I'm going to just mean he can turn out a quiet, completely neutral room into every single person standing up and jumping up and down. And you're like, what just happens? So you're, that's his talent that right? He right? I watched him take a it was a group of engineers. Okay, so we all know engineers have a tendency to have that pretty subdued, subdued personality, you know, highly intelligent in the beginning of the night, they're all coming up saying, Hey, can you tell how does this equipment work? And he's like, seriously, listen to the music, like, how many times do I have to explain all the equipment work? And by the end of the night, they were that song, jump, jump jump. By the end of the night, I saw these engineers and not young engineers, I'm talking, you know, like, the average age in the room was probably 50. And they were jumping up and down saying, play another one. And I'm going, Oh, my God. What just happened? We're in the twilight zone. And he's, you know, the, the person running the events, like, you need to turn off the music. And he's like, Yeah, I'm trying, but I keep getting, you know, all these people keep requesting another song. They were singing, trying to sing karaoke. And I'm just like, Oh, my God.
 
Wanda Fox  31:23
So for him, that's the power of music. Yeah, that's what I see in my Grayson table. It's breaking down those walls. And he come in a human.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:33
Yep. That's right, everybody. You know, I've seen a post on LinkedIn, what is your superpower? And it's truly everybody has, every single person has something. Some people may not know what it is yet. either. They're young in their career, or they just haven't figured it out. And it sounds like one a you enjoy. You enjoy talking to people and helping them figure out what it what their superpower as everybody has something. And when you when you identify what that is, it's amazing, because then you can really leverage that use that to your benefit to the benefit of others. And you know, yeah, it's, it's amazing.
 
Wanda Fox  32:27
I absolutely. And I think you could, you could have changed someone's life for the absolute better, because they're like, she believed in me. Right. So then you just instilled belief in them. And that's, and that's, that's the part I love.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:44
Absolutely. And, yeah, absolutely. That's brilliant. And we need more people like you, we need. And I know a lot of a lot of business professionals who will offer Hey, I'll be a mentor to you. I will, you know, and that's what we need in this world?
 
Wanda Fox  33:01
Well, it does. And there are a lot of people that I think that are stepping into that role, because there is such a massive need for that. And when you surround yourself with people that have that mindset, I mean, they become a mentor to you. But then in turn, you can take that same, and you can pass it on to someone else. So I mean, like you I feel like you would be someone's mentor and podcasting these days is taken on a whole new level. So I was working with a young man the other day actually interviewing him for something else. And he works with young adults teaching them podcasting. And I mean, back in when I was a teenager, there were while technology is not what it is today. So there are so many things that if we just open up those avenues, well, this is something you could do. And I think that's where the mentorship is huge is showing young people. Because we don't come with knowing everything, you have to walk the road. So you can go back and say, well, this might be so I think that's what you're good at doing too is giving people other options and interviewing people and bringing this out like, wow, look at who Leanne just interviewed, I want to go do what they do.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:17
Well, and I get I have a lot of I've had quite a few people come to me and say, Hey, I've got one it was my granddaughter I've got you know, my my daughter or my son. They don't know what they want to be when they grow up. Even though they just went to college and have a degree Will you will you talk with them? Will you interview them and see what they what they're interested in and I'm like, I'll talk with them. But I can't tell them what their what they want to be when they grow up. I can tell them what the world has to offer. And I can walk them through the steps of how they can hone in on what they want to be. And I've done that a lot. I've done that a couple of times and said okay, here's here's where you You should start to focus. Here's with your degree, here's what you can do. And sometimes, you know, with the degrees nowadays, you know, you can get a degree in economics or you can get a business degree and you can, you can go anywhere, you can do anything. So I've definitely done that, for a number of individuals, a number of young people who just recently graduated.
 
Wanda Fox  35:25
What are the things that I find so useful with that when you're talking about young college students? And that is a that's a huge stressor, what do I do now, it's like to sit them down and say, Tell me what you love to then further man on LinkedIn and say, go follow somebody who's doing exactly what you want to do. And let them just be on the side just watching because you can learn so much, just watching someone and maybe what their degree is, it's not what they really want. But you know what, no one could ever take that piece of paper away from them, they have a degree.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:01
Right, well, and the interesting thing is that I started going to school for computer programming. Actually, my first, my first I started going to school for accounting. Then I started going to school for computer programming, then I switched my degree to business with an emphasis in human resource management. So it's, it's ever changing. You know, I shouldn't say it's ever changing. It's a lot of college students, they choose their degree, way before they have any concept of what they want to be what they want to do. Unless, yeah, right. And nobody gives them guidance.
 
Wanda Fox  36:44
And I completely agree for my son, an educator, his said, college will help him find his direction. On the flip side, my daughter is an educator, and in her middle school, they have all of the trades listed, and they show you what you can make as a tradesman. So I don't want to come on here, just as college only in the world we live in today, the doors open for entrepreneurs, the door is open for tradesmen, and we seriously need those. So that's why I encourage people don't just feel like it's one track. And this is what I have to do. And if I don't, I'm a failure. I do seriously encourage people to reach out to people in your community. If someone wants a job with me and watch, I would absolutely allow them to come do that. Maybe they find out that's absolutely what I don't want to do. I like what someone told my son. After he poured concrete for summer, he said that was the best thing you could do. You found out you didn't want to be concrete labor. That's not to say we don't need concrete laborers. And we do. That just wasn't his passion. Right? So I highly encourage go shadow someone. If you think you want to be a flower farmer, go see what's involved in the flower farmer. It's not all roses.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:10
Right? Right. Oh my gosh, that and what you said, you know, go shadow. I work at a staffing company. If you want to go try out a couple of different jobs come and be a contractor for for six months and try out a couple of different jobs. They're going to be entry level because you don't have a ton of experience in different things. But entry level nowadays is not $12 An hour or $6. Now or when it was my first job? Yeah, actually, I think $4 An hour was my first job.
 
Wanda Fox  38:42
But I think it is probably the best time that they could invest in their in their future self is to go job shadow and go talk to people. And then that comes back to being shy. You have to learn to talk. Even if it's just go up to someone and say can you tell me about your job? You can sit and listen.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:02
I don't know how we got on this tangent, but it was fun. Well, wanted this has been an awesome conversation and you've definitely had a very interesting path and continue to from Flower farmer to catering company to now with Amari global are they do they? What how do they identify? Are they they're not pharmaceuticals? Are they there?
 
Wanda Fox  39:31
We are not pharmaceutical we are actually trademarked as the mental wellness company. We are completely holistic. So no pharmaceuticals,
 
Leighann Lovely  39:43
no pharmaceuticals, no drugs
 
Wanda Fox  39:45
I will jump back real quick. It's like how did I get to be where I am? I did work corporate America. high stress, high anxiety, anxiety. I didn't have any of these things up at my disposal. So I saw that side of it. So it can be for anyone. It could be for, you know, the executive that's just crushing it burning the candle at both urns. It can be for the athlete it can. Yeah, it's like I said, we all have mental wellness. So, yes, I've been there on that. And prior to becoming a flower farmer, I did the corporate. So yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  40:21
Yeah, you definitely have an awesome background and an interesting path. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today about that. And and like I said, you check out the show notes for how to reach out to Wanda if you're interested in talking about her catering company, or if you're interested in learning more about the product that her company offers for mental health, wellness, and, you know, again, want to thank you.
 
Wanda Fox  40:47
Thanks, Leighann I think we could talk for a long time so we'll chat again.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:51
Yes, we definitely will. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Website – https://www.foxncompany.com/
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wanda-fox-14b497146/
 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/wanda.fox.7
 
Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/
 
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
mental wellness, people, passion, shy, flower, conversation, person, table, grew, wanda, farmer, food, talk, company, lending, common thread, learn, degree, grazing, amari
 

Episode 8 - Chaplain Krista Hull - Passion

Chaplain Krista Hull is an amazing woman, she is passionate, tenacious and a survivor in her own right. She now walks alongside women at their most weak and vulnerable to help them heal. Building a business alone is not easy, but creating a place for hope offering a safe place and so much more is not for the faint of heart.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Today I have the distinguished honor of speaking with an amazing woman Chaplain Christa Hull, Krista is the Founder and Executive Director for Redeem and Restore Center. Our RRC's mission is coming along side women recovering from sex trafficking and helps them build a foundation of healing ultimately through a restorative care home. She is inspired by the courage and resilience of women's survivors and believes that together with God's help, we can restore women to a life of freedom. fueled with her compassion, Christina's desire to help hurting women stems from being a survivor of child sexual abuse, and abandonment. She knows God's great love, power and justice in her life. With that she perseveres in honesty, vulnerability, integrity, and strength as a passionate speaker, Chaplain, crisis intervention specialist, and as a life coach, she is also trauma care certified, and an alumni of the FBI Citizens Academy and Waukesha County Sheriff's Citizens Academy. She is married and a mother of two young adults in her free time Krista enjoys her adventures in the outdoors. So Krista, thank you for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you here.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  02:34
Well, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:38
So tell me a little bit about yourself.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  02:42
Oh, well, let's see, I could go on for too much and bore you to death. But let's see. Today, I have overcome a lot of junk just like all of us have faced in our life. But I'm so thankful of where I am. The hard work and the journey so far. I look forward to what's ahead. You know, I have two young adults as children, so married, and have my lovely pet Tacoma. Who is my cuddle baby at home. So yeah, that's where I'm at today.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:13
Awesome. So you, you are the founder. And you run an amazing not not for profit, redeem and restore Center for Women. How did you how did you find your your path? You know, to where you are with that?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  03:30
Yeah, and that is that journey that I've mentioned. It was not my plan. I didn't say hey, I want to start a nonprofit and feel good and help people. Nope, I was, let's see, I went to school, tried out to two different areas of careers. And then my husband, I started a landscape company, I was an insurance agent. All these things that did not lead me in directly prepare me to start a nonprofit, but really all the other behind the scenes stuff of really, you know, growing up and learning through my experiences of being abandoned by my father and my mom, struggling with that emotional abuse and then not having that good connection with her. And then, you know, choices and shame and struggle that I dealt with through high school and college, really all of that compiling and saying I've got to do something with all this junk. And working through that. Because of the overwhelming feelings of abandonment, rejection, loneliness and shame. I wanted to find a way to help others that maybe feel those same things and how can I be that encouragement that I didn't have that encouragement and to point out and direct and in empower them to see their value regardless of what They've experienced regardless of what they've been through and what they've been told. And so basically I see it as I, I am gathering people and resources so that we can support the most abandoned and rejected and lonely women out there those who have been trafficked and exploited.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:20
So and you kind of mentioned that a little bit so trafficked and exploited. So is that the specific area of that you really tackle? I mean, tell me a little bit about redeem and restore center.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  05:34
Yes. So we started redeem and restore center, to reach out to those women and provide a place a home where they could come and heal from every area that they've been shattered physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally, and spiritually, all of those things, because all of those make up who we are, we're not just, you know, struggling financially and struggling mentally it they're all interwoven. And so we saw that a home would be a perfect place where they have to deal with life for a time, they just have to deal with the junk for a time and have that support system and provide the services. And so that's what we set out to do when we started redeeming Resource Center for exploited and trafficked women. And I didn't think we could help anyone until we had this home open. But what I found after a few years in of, you know, speaking, getting out in the public, having events been on the internet and social media, that survivors were finding us and wanting that support and wanting help now. And some of them had somewhere to live, but still didn't really get these services on all these other areas of their life, anywhere. And so they were still really struggling just to function and live. And it's been a real privilege that we've been able to come alongside multiple women and surrounding communities, and build up an advocate team to help them and support them. And and also as an individual, it's not just this cookie cutter program, and this is what we offer. It's where are you? What can we offer. So that's why we say walk alongside, because that means that's implying that I don't know what they need until I get to know them, and what do they need? And how can we help them. We're not just a handout or a financial handout, we are a support system and advocate system to help build them up and empower them to become all that they were created to be the home that we're looking for right now shopping for and Waukesha County, it is that best way to do that is in a home, because there are so many that don't have a place to but need that support. And so that's what we are working to do right now.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:57
Right. And and you said so many, when we think of I mean, I grew up in this beautiful state of Wisconsin, and you know, in the United States, we think, well, that doesn't happen here. There's no sex trafficking here. Right. Then I met you and we come to realize that this, this is happening. This is happening here in the United States. This is happening here in Milwaukee, this is happening across the United States. How many? Yes, how many women how many people?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  08:38
Well, there are so many and so many that we don't know where they are. So it's not like we can just go out and rescue them. And again, even to rescue them is such a it's a lovely sounds like a great word. But again, this isn't just that they were they weren't kidnapped and locked in a room. They were manipulated, coerced, this is to relationship this is this is through maybe even how they grew up and how they were treated. This is why it happens everywhere. It is a human problem. It is not a location problem. And and when people abuse people and manipulate that does happen everywhere. And so the amount of people are guesstimate, they guesstimate and this guesstimate has not really changed I will say in over 10 years. So that's how good these kits are. They estimate that over 300,000 Americans are entrapped into sex trafficking every year. And that includes children up to adults, and this is boys and girls and men and women. It is again using other people justifying their choices to get what they want, make some money, have some power, and also again, make themselves feel good and not look At that other person, as a person as a product, and that is why it happens everywhere. Again, we have our if you could think of the most vulnerable, and even our media so much portrays it's often, you know, the inner city, it's in similar walkie it's, it's in Chicago and will it is, but I will say, I'll ask you a question. Where do most of the people live? In the cities, right? So there's a lot more people. So logically, that's why it happens more. Another reason is, then again, we have more vulnerable people in the city because of various things, right, that we know of in various cities, again, poverty. And then we have the foster system and all sorts of other issues. So there's more of them in the inner cities as well. But it is not limited in any way to just the cities because as I said, it is a human issue. If we just think about porn, how readily available, it is right on our home computers, or our handheld devices and all over the place. And that is intimately connected to trafficking. And again, it's a people thing, it's why it happens even in rural towns and in the country and in the suburbs, because it is a people problem, not a location problem.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:23
So many of these individuals that this is happening with, it's not necessarily or in the beginning, this individual may not even know that they are originally being manipulated into something that is eventually going to turn into basically their horror story.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  11:46
Right, I talked about our normals, we we all have different normals, right? I mean, there's generally general culture, normal, you know, in, in the United States, compared to other countries or even in individual states have some different cultural differences. But they have these different normals, but then as an individual, our own family, what did what do we experience when we grew up what shaped us that what we expect to be normal. So for me, with the abuse by an older boy, when I was young, and then thinking as I went into high school, by my experience, what I saw, what I saw in the porn at my uncle's house and other places, is if I wanted boys to like me, if I wanted attention that I would need to do whatever they wanted me to do, sexually, to get their affection to get their attention, because that was my normal. Right? Though I knew in my head that part of it was wrong. But yet this is what was normal what I had experienced. So we all have different normals, so specifically to being exploited and trafficked. Some of them, it could have started since birth, it could have started when they were little kids that they were being abused, sexually, or in other ways. And then as you get older, you get used to, you know, people who have relationships with narcissists. Again, we've heard about domestic abuse, which is more commonly understood at this point. And why does someone go from one abusive relationship to another, and then to another, and to another, you're like, What Are they crazy, but it is what is normal to them, they want something different, but it's normal. So if you were told or shown, you know, this is all you're good for, then you're more ready to let people do whatever, to keep living. So in other cases, when it's not started, right when you're young, but even so when you're young and older, it is mostly through relationships, it is not kidnapped, people are not rarely ever kidnapped into trafficking, it is through a manipulative relationship, often a romantic relationship, most often over 50% of the time, it is someone that you're, you become close to, and they and they groom you they call you, they prepare you and get you to trust them and like them. And then they get you to do things that you thought you would never do, or how would you do it. And if you do want to rebel or leave, you know, they, they often can use threats, of course, you know, if they if you have other family members, or they know where you live, or they made videos, they threaten you. So it's not so easy of just walking away, especially when you already feel like you have this good close relationship or they you think they really love you, or because they made you feel good or they buy you things because this is the best you've experienced then you're more willing to oh, well they just really needed my help or he didn't really mean to or he really does care about me but I need to do this because again And our justifications of how we get stuck in those situations as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:04
Right. And again, like you mentioned, often, the individuals that are chosen for this are looking or need
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  15:14
Need our Vulnerability or vulnerability, there we go, though
 
Leighann Lovely  15:18
The word of are, are in a vulnerable state to begin with. So they're, they're more likely to fall into those situations.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  15:27
Right? And when are you vulnerable? I mean, you're vulnerable at multiple times throughout your life, correct. First, of course, your age, it makes you automatically under the age of 25 is when you're most vulnerable. But you can be vulnerable later. And that happens, you know, you you think you could do this thing, and you think you'll be okay. And but yet you're in such a desperation financially. Or, or, again, it's a relationship, and then you start and then even in that again, then the boyfriend can start to traffic you and sell you.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:01
Yes. So you I mean, it's gotta be a struggle, not only, you know, being one, a business owner. But then on top of that, you are, you know, a Chaplin, you, you have your own personal life, obviously, that you have to fit somewhere in there. But how do you balance that when, when I'm assuming that everybody is looking to you for the direction? And you know, how do you how do you find that balance?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  16:31
Well, for me, and yes, because running a nonprofit is still a business, I'm not selling a product, I'm selling ideas and purpose. And that is harder. And that's why he loves people helping. But yes, I do lead that. And I'm thankful for the gifts that I have that allow me to lead and be adaptable. That is one of my strengths, and very driven has also that I'm able to do this and I can I can fudge my way through lots of things until someone comes along and does it better. So that helps, too. But yes, definitely. And I'm, obviously I'm very passionate about educating people. I'm very passionate about seeing people's value and very passionate about coming alongside them and helping and supporting them. And yes, I hear some horrific things. And you think I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm thankful that it still always, in some ways still surprises me when I hear another horrific issue with someone or struggles. But it is it I'm thankful that if you know what an Enneagram personality is that I'm an eight, and maybe not a seven, fully, because then I might struggle more those that are very much more empathetic than me, you know, it's harder for having good strong boundaries. So for me, it really is learning boundaries. And again, sometimes I fail on those. Like, there were some certain rules my husband and I had, well, I should say my husband said that this these are some rules on with the women that you work with what will not happen and I have broken a few of those rules. But it is really about having good healthy boundaries, even with volunteers, even in with all people, not just the women that we work with, but with volunteers. And then because I'm driven learning to have good boundaries, again, with just when work is I don't really care what when I work, I can work Monday morning, I can work Monday night, I can work you know, Saturday, Sunday, because I'm so passionate and involved. So then again having really healthy boundaries and acknowledging that I need that time out and actually it is my husband once again, him being really jealous of his time and with me or taking that time. So he adds that added pressure to make sure I have good boundaries. And so I've been learning with that. How to do that better. Because I can I can get swallowed in at times and I still do sometimes and sometimes there are emergencies there are situations that will take more time and I'm fine with that. But there's still time that I set aside that I do go outside for me it's outdoors it's the beauty. So again that self care things that we hear so much about but what is good for you and for me, it is being outdoors it is enjoying you sometimes working in the garden or going for walks or you know playing with my dog or or even driving down the road with my all my windows open the sunroof and my music blaring. These are things that kind of just level me out and calm me down and refresh me especially the sun I love that too. So those are some, I think the biggest points for me that helped me stay grounded and keep me refocused as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:09
Right. And, you know, it's, it's, I spoke to in season one, I spoke to somebody who is an advocate for in mental health patients, she works for, you know, behavioral health clinic. And she talked a lot about, you know, really holding space for herself and making sure that she does that. And I'm assuming that that is something that you really have to that you have to do that you have to really make sure that you're being careful not to let some of the emotions of other people use, you mentioned, you know, empathy, it's good to have empathy, but, you know, to become empathic or to become too empathetic to a point where you're bringing that home with you. And you're allowing it to bleed into your personal life that could, that could really affect somebody, it could really affect your own mental health. So how do you make sure that your take and you talk a little bit about going outside blaring your music and, you know, open up the windows in your car, but, you know, are there other things that you make that you do to really make sure that that you're taking care of you, you know, is it a weekend at the spa every once in a while? Or, you know, do you do you go in and talk to somebody about your own mental health, just to make sure that you're not carrying the weight of the world, on your shoulders?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  21:33
Yeah, so those are my kind of those things I did mention are kind of my regular things, and that are important. But another huge regular thing that I didn't mention that I do that I think actually is the biggest thing for me, is I have my coffee and my quiet time with God in the morning, and I sit and, and I'll read something in my Bible, and I will sit and just pray over the things that I'm concerned all about that weigh on me, and, and listen and just slowly start my day. And that is actually probably the biggest thing. Because without that, because what I'm a part of what we do is so much bigger than me that this is not something I can do it is it is not I don't do it. So I can feel good about myself, I really actually do it because this is where I feel God led me. And this is where he's leading me. And so I need him to help me clear my mind and let him carry the weight. So that's my first putting the burden on him and just say, what do I need to do today, and I can only do what I can do, I can't fix people, I can barely fix myself. So that's my first main grounding thing of moving forward one day at a time. And the other thing is just like I trained our advocate team as well. And, and so with the other advocates and me, it's we talk about that self care. So some of those important things already mentioned the brown these boundaries and things that I love, but also talking to one another. And so again, when we have something that's weighing on us or, you know, there's just it's somehow it's like, oh, I'm noticing, so we talk about, you know, are you paying attention? Are you noticing that something's different? Because there's secondary trauma is what it's called, what happens is when you're in the middle, when you're sitting in someone else's pain and sorrow with them, then you start to take that on and, and you have to do things to let that go. And part of that, like I said, for me is my morning quiet time with God. But then also, I have other people that I talked to, and and besides our advocate team, and just talking to them because they understand and just to process through and asking them to pray as well so that it can let it go. And same for them to not hold tight. Because again, we know we can logically know these things. But those emotions are connected to our logic and emotions have their own thing. They do not follow logic, they do not follow facts. And so that's the biggest thing, having that alertness, of paying attention. And then also having those conversations with people to ask asking questions with one another to make sure. How are we doing? Are we doing well? are we carrying some of this extra weight that we shouldn't be carrying? And that's really pretty much it.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:27
Right? You know, it's funny, you talk about emotions don't follow that logic and to you know, I wish there's been because there's been times I've sat down and I've said you know, okay, I understand, you know, emotionally what's happening like, I I know that I'm having a bad day, and I know I feel down. I know what it's related to now I'm aware of it. Just feel better. Yes, why isn't this working? Why isn't this working? Why can't I snap my fingers? Because now I'm aware of it right? I'm aware of it logically, I'm aware of it, why can't I just snap my fingers and feel better?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  25:09
It is a process for sure. We have to practice. It's a practice.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:16
Right it is a practice it is, you know, and and you you would everybody in and out everybody, but so many people think, well, you know, you have to you have to grow in understanding your emotions. And the more you understand about your emotions, the more you can, you know, have control over your emotions. Well, that really, it's just that now we understand why we feel that way. So we can process our way out, and it doesn't take as long to kind of process, you know, get through getting out of that. But you still cannot fix it. You still have to go through all of the steps in order to heal from even a bad day. Sometimes I have to come home and I look at my husband and he goes, Oh, I don't want to talk to you. And I'm like, nope, not today. Like, let's get through dinner, let's get our daughter to bed. And then I'm gonna go huff and puff on the couch with my cup of tea and relax. And maybe in an hour after that we can have a normal conversation without me biting off your head for you saying hi.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  26:26
And I just realized we forgot we kind of talked about this before we started the podcast, but really also taking care of our bodies like because we're both struggling physically right now and sleek. And I know so right on your point. A few let's see what day is it? It's been a long week. Monday, I was still doing well, emotionally and mentally. And the last two days because the sleep and the sickness have really worn me down. I am much weaker, and helping deal with these emotions. So I will tell you, I was really struggling this morning mentally and emotionally. Both of them were like eat and I'm trying to tell myself the truth and trying to move forward. But I'm like, Oh, it is just I just feel though it because it was truth. But that this particular truth was weighing on me more than it was before. And now it seemed more apparent more right in my face that I was struggling to move through it. Because I'm weaker. I'm more worn down and I'm tired. And so you know, we have that too. I mean, we we've got to eat right and sleep right and do what we can. But you know when things are happening and you can't control it all like now and feeling really worn down. You are going to struggle more with those emotions and those thoughts for sure.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:51
Absolutely. On Monday, I woke up and I messaged my boss and I'm like, I am probably not going to you're probably not going to hear from me much I was diagnosed at you know, I was told I had an ear infection. I am going to pretty much sleep when my I have a puppy who's a monster? Oh, no, I'm going to sleep when he sleeps. The only reason I'm gonna wake up is because he's barking at me. And that pretty much was my Monday. And I remember at one point waking up thinking maybe I should just get an easier job. Maybe I should just I just can't do any of this anymore. Like I just I just remember thinking to myself, like, just my life is so overwhelming right now. It's so you know, you know. And then the next day I woke up I'm like, Wow, I feel world like so much better. Like, wow, okay, I've got my energy, but I'm, like, totally ready for the day. I'm like, I'm so excited. Like, why are you thinking that things were so overwhelming, you know. But you're right, it is 100% Amazing how the physical aspect of your body. If your body is rundown, if you're sick, you're under the weather, it is you are so quick to be like, I can't even climb an anthill, let alone the mountain of work that I have sitting on my desk, like I am ready to just quit my job, I'm gonna go live in my car, and I'm not going to do anything else anymore. I you know, I'll stop home and see the puppy and every once in a while, or maybe I'll just live in my car in my driveway and my husband could come out and bring me I'm just I'm ready to quit. And, you know, it's a fleeting thought, of course, you know, in that moment of complete weakness when I don't want to lift my head up. But then all of a sudden, it's you know, now I'm feeling better. I'm on my antibiotics, and I wake up and I'm like, Okay, what was I thinking?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  29:43
And then we have those seasons to where it's things that are out of our control that are just overwhelming and weighing on us because of other people in our life. Or someone that you know, that we're serving or working with. And you know, when they're really hurting, you can still be taken care of Help, but it's still weighs on you to a point. And again, it is affecting us. And we, I think, especially those that are us are very driven, or we can discount that a lot and keep moving. But we have to acknowledge that it is still affecting us, we are not at 100%, even because of these other relationships, or who we're working with or helping, and in remembering that, and then also giving ourselves grace. Because then then I think that's when I at least, can start beating myself up more like I'm not doing enough, I'm not getting enough done. And this should have been done already. And what the heck is wrong with you, you know, all those things, that's when I start to beat myself up when these other circumstances start weighing. And I'm still trying to do things, but it is affecting me being at my best potential because it is big stuff. So that's the other way to that we struggle.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:58
And I think that a lot of people, they they set this bar, and they think I have to be able to, I have to be able to jump over that. But in reality, I think that and women expecially in women, we set this bar way too high for ourselves, nobody is expecting us to jump over it. Yet. We've you know, we've we've put it at 100 feet, and everybody else is like it should be at like 50 You know what, what are you doing it? Nobody ever told you that you had to set it at 100 It's supposed to be at 50 feet, and nobody expects you to get there. But you're like, No, no, I'm gonna get there. No, you're not like, but we all seem to just continue to set it up there. And then we get upset with ourselves when we don't, when we can't jump at. That's probably a bad analogy, maybe, you know, six feet. And you know, everybody else is like, you can't jump six feet, you can jump maybe three feet, you know, at a really, really fast running start. And I probably still trip over it. The point being is that, you know, women, so often set that bar way too high for ourselves. And everybody else looking around, especially the other women are like, Why are you doing that, but they do it to themselves as well. And then we're trying to we take on the world. And then we get disappointed with ourselves when we can't do everything because nobody's expecting us to do everything.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  32:21
Right? I'm a list, I'm a list checker. So if I don't get enough things on my list, because that's when I feel most productive when I'm like, Okay, check, check, check, I got all of these things done. And when I don't get to check off too many things, those days are very disappointing. But that again, that's how I made that is part of how I operate. And so that's what I accept that but I also Yes, I do, again, that's with boundaries is I can only do what I can do today. And that's I have to leave it and so if I have done my best today, then I have to be okay with that. And that's really important for like everything that you're saying that all of us can remind ourselves and again, we're going to have our bad days, we're going to have our things where we get mad, but if but staying there's the problem, right? We can always have all these issues, it's a choice whether we're going to just keep going there or are we are going to adjust our attitude, adjust our thoughts adjust, again, mental emotional of you are only able to do what you're able to do in a certain amount of hours. And we all have different gifts. And we can all do different things or more of certain things than other things. But knowing who you are. So I'm obviously a big proponent of understanding yourself and your gifts and your weaknesses, knowing what you're good at and doing the best at that. And then accepting that what your weaknesses are, you're not going to change them, you may. But that's where you need more help and support. So that's another part of right balancing and health and doing everything is knowing you're doing the best you can with the strengths that you have. And you know how to get the support and the help with the weaknesses that you have.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:04
Absolutely, absolutely. And one thing and I'm a list person too, like not all the time, but you know, my brain is starting to get old and I can't remember everything all the time anymore,
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  34:16
Right? Yeah. So so.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:19
I'm getting there. Yeah. Hey, 41. No. So I make you know, I make lists too. And but I but I have started to account for the fact that if I don't check off that list today, it will get done tomorrow, because I have started to realize that the best intentions does not always account for the client calling me saying I need you to do this today or the whatever it might be and life is so unexpected all the time. Like things are constantly getting in the way of the best intentions.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  34:56
If our biggest frustrations are because things didn't go the way we Wanted, the way we plan the way we hope and how often I mean, there are parts of our days that go that way. But in general, like you said, that's just not how life works. We keep trying to make it go that way.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:12
Exactly. Now imagine being an obsessive compulsive that that can't handle, change and can't handle things not going your way. And I'm being I'm semi being serious here, because there are people who really cannot handle things not going exactly the way. So the the, the more easygoing you are with intention, obviously, because you don't want to be so easygoing that you just don't care. But if you also want to be, you know, intentional about what you want to do, but with the understanding that things just don't, don't, they just don't always go. You know, they just don't always go right. And when they don't, you got to go with the flow and you got to do what you can do what you said, you know, do the best that you can today. Because there's going to be a tomorrow and if you think that way.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  36:05
Should have a lot too much. Yeah, you should have a pretty happy ending
 
Leighann Lovely  36:09
You know, every day except when you you know come home and your husband doesn't want to talk to you because he can see the look on your face
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  36:18
For everybody then happens everyone's I'm thinking your your your daughter doesn't go with that though. She's not so she's like, No, I need my mommy. She doesn't obey those those looks that you have. She has her own plans.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:32
Yes, she's four. So it's pretty much like, No, I want Mommy, I want Mommy, I want mommy and it's either she's attached to my leg. Or if I'm sitting down, she's on my back. Today, actually, she says I don't want mommy. I want daddy. I'm like I'm okay with that. Yes, so she eats she she equally shares. She equally shares her her love with him with both of us. Right now. It's definitely not with the dog. She equally is sharing her hatred. 100% towards him. Oh. I shouldn't say equally. She's 100% sharing her hatred towards him. I shouldn't say hatred, either. But she's she's not taking well to the 10 week old puppy that we have at this point.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  37:24
Sure. eater eating up stuff.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:26
He's Yeah, he's still in the needle sharp teeth biting.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  37:30
Oh, yes, Yes.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:34
So how large at this point, you're talking about getting another home? I mean, are you expanding?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  37:42
So no, we don't have a home.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:44
Oh, okay. Okay. i Oh, yeah,
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  37:47
Yes, we started working with women before again. So we adjusted because oh, we can do we can help them? Oh, they do need us right now? What can we do? So there are some women that we can help right now. But that have somewhere to live. And if they don't we actually look for housing and services for them. But we are shopping for a home right now we are on the lookout on the hunt in this fun market. And we have a few very specific things like price, size of rooms, how many rooms things like that? So yes, so trying to find that. And we have made a few offers that were unsuccessful. But yeah, looking to open that home in Waukesha County, is where we're at right now.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:33
That's amazing. And how many rooms are you? Are you looking for in that home?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  38:39
Oh, as much as we can get for the money that we have. But it. So group home CBRF is basically what it's called. And there's those are for all kinds of services. But that's what we'd be considered by the state of Wisconsin. And you can serve up to eight women in that in that home. So again, keeping it as a home, but a little a little crazy with some eight traumatize women, you know, so yes, as many as many as we are able. And then obviously, we need a bed in space for because we love 24 hour people in the home. So more during the day, but during the night, someone will always be there as well. So there'll be a rotation, so we need space for that as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:23
Wow. And is this going to be a home that would be open for women who have children if they needed to stay?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  39:32
So most often, they do not have children or custody of their children, but surprisingly, really, because it is I mean, how is it that you're being sold for sex and you have a child? It is quite interesting in those dynamics, how it actually can happen and be possible. And so we actually have there's another group that kind of does a support system for parents and helping watching their children. And so we have been in the talk With another nonprofit in trying to work out with their volunteers and our volunteers of, you know, providing care for those kids, but allowing their mom to really, so they wouldn't be a place for the kids to live as well. But yet, there would still be that connection, that support, they were not surrendering, you know, another trauma, surrendering their rights for their kid that they actually have, but supporting them through that, but supporting them to build up their personhood before they have to, you know, handle, you know, because we know, raising kids can be really hard. And again, like we just said, when they want, they want, they don't care if Mommy's having a bad day, or mommy can't handle anything right now. So we want to make sure the kids are cared for really well. And so as mom at the same time, and then again, still working on that relationship, and then as she's ready to leave, you know, looking and helping them move forward as a family,
 
Leighann Lovely  40:57
Right. And this would allow for also limiting the amount of trauma for the children without having social services and everything else involved. And so those kids would be taken care of well, and that's like, that's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. So if someone wanted to reach out to you, or contact you, and I just figured I would bring it up now. But if somebody wanted to reach out to contact, you get involved, or, you know, donate to your cause, all of that kind of stuff, how would they go about doing that?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  41:32
Well, they can obviously go to our website, which is redeem, and restore.org. And there's lots of information, we do presentations as well. They can volunteer, they can donate, and we need everything all the time, that will never change we'll need we rely very heavily on volunteers. We have I call it we have one and a half staff persons at current time right now. But everyone else is volunteers. And we will always rely heavily on volunteers so we make can stay sustainable. And so we need lots of people sharing their gifts, whatever they are, again, running a business, working out in networking and fundraising, and then again, immediate direct needs for the women as well. And then financially, again, providing for the home the support services that aren't volunteered the needs that aren't, you know, covered from that need to be covered financially. So, obviously, there's always a great need, they can always email me as well, which is Krista at redeem and restore.org. And check us out. We have we're on social media, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and I have a podcast as well, to learn a little bit more encouraging stories life empowered. But yeah, you can find us all over.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:55
Excellent. Now, before we wrap up, I have the season or the question of the season. So I would love to talk to you about that. That question. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  43:16
I guess I would probably go back to probably in high school. Because going back before there again, I'm so young, it doesn't matter what I told myself then. But if I was in high school, if I tell myself that I really do need to find some people that I can trust that I can really talk to, that I don't have to figure out everything by myself, that there are some people they're hard to find, but be patient and and try to look for those relationships of people that you can talk to and trust and like and be there for them as well not just take but a gift. I guess that would be what I wish I could do.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:00
Yes. Krista, I really appreciate you being so open and honest to talk about your past and your story and to, you know, to talk about what you do what you I mean, you're you're you're such an amazing woman. You know, it is it's obvious that you are in the right place, that God has led you to the right place. There's I mean, there's no words to say how amazing what you do is you truly are out there helping people who who need help. And it's it's life altering for a lot of women. And so I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.
 
Chaplain Krista Hull  44:43
Well, thank you. I don't really agree I'm too amazing, but I get to be a part of amazing work and I'm thankful for that and I am thankful for your kind words. Thank you.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:51
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So Don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day
 
E-mail - krista@redeemandrestore.org
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaplain-krista-hull-b8862431/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/joyfulhull
Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, women, home, struggling, support, life, volunteers, normal, care, Waukesha county, emotions, vulnerable, Krista, point, helping, talk, happening, mommy, relationship, weighing

Episode 7 - Michael Creed - Driven Leaders, Wear Heavy Crowns

Michael Creed is a driven and true entrepreneur, like many, he did not have an easy path and in the mortgage industry, things will always be hills, valleys, and mountains to be conquered. Michael, however, is a force that has built a successful team and processes that has proven results. As a leader, he not only wears many hats, he creates policy runs a team, and has date night without exception every week.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
I have the honor of speaking with Michael Creed today. Michael Creed is the Branch Manager for Illuminate Home Loans in Brookfield and the Waukesha location, he does much more than just manage. In fact, Michael wears many hats at his job from running his own personal production team to creating systems policies and procedures for branch processing. Michael does it all. In addition, he also coaches, the loan officers and other team leads at his branch working hard to ensure his team is set up for success. As a homeowner before he even graduated college. Michael is very familiar with the pain points that most homeowners and prospective homeowners face. He loves working with clients that are willing to trust his expertise to get mortgages closed quickly, while also improving their quality of life with a holistic financial plan. When at work, Michael is energized by all of his amazing clients and hardworking staff. Outside of work, you'll usually find Michael, rock climbing, alpine skiing, mountain biking, weightlifting, attending church or going on other various outdoor adventures. Michael, it is so exciting to have you on come and talk to me. You've you've done a lot of speaking recently about your formula to this amazing success that you've had. And so I'm excited to have you join me today.
 
Michael Creed  02:40
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, so
 
Leighann Lovely  02:42
why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Michael Creed  02:46
Awesome. So I am a team lead and also a branch director for illuminate home loans. So I do mortgage lending. And I run a team, a production team that Michael create team then also oversee several other brands, brands within our brand. That's really kind of how we lead in fact, and so I have several other teams that run themselves, I oversee them. And then I also oversee the operations for our branches. Well, I also am part of the ownership group within within the company too.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:17
Awesome. So you have a responsibility of obviously hiring, firing, bringing on your team building that team internally, so tell me a little bit about that.
 
Michael Creed  03:29
Yeah, that's exactly that's a big chunk of my job, in fact is is is the recruitment, as I like to call it sounds a lot better to me than recruiting. Right? But yeah, we do i There are all of those things. So we do have an HR department through our corporate office that will help us with the logistics and just making sure that we're doing it right. But ultimately, I am the one that's responsible for all of those things, disciplinary action to write. And, and building that network. So you know, when you look at the different parts of my job, not only is it the production part, like I mentioned, and then the team leads, but yeah, absolutely. The hiring, the firing the finding of individuals as well. So it's a it's a huge part.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:09
So you've also created and I mentioned that you you know, you've I met you the first time I actually met you, you were you. I saw you as a speaker. And and you talked about you know, the this formula that you've created to create an amazing client experience that has driven outstanding results. I want to focus on that for a little while. Tell me how this was created. And, you know, your kind of the vision that you had when you came up with this or that when it was designed and implemented?
 
Michael Creed  04:45
Absolutely. The mortgage business is chock full of coaching as is real estate and other types of businesses like that right and maybe even yours, it's that way too. And what happens in that area is we all have these great ideas and a lot of times it's a system or structure, something like that. And then you go to a conference, you're excited about it, and then you come back and you fail miserably at executing these things. And that is what we took was systems from places, you know, what we're doing is not new. You look at different organizations, different coatings, different programs that say do A, B, C, D, we've taken what we feel are the best of each of those things, and then ultimately executed on them. You know, so for example, our three form strategy, which is what I know, you've seen me talk about, that's our strategy for playing for three introductions, by the time of closing, so our clients know early on in the process that we want to, we have a goal of being introduced to three people who are looking to buy a house, sell a house, refinance a mortgage, or in renters that would want to know what their options are by the time of closing. And they know that early on, and along the way, we take care of a ton of small details, to make sure that these clients know that we're different. In the mortgage business, you can't go more than are in the in life, I feel like you can't go more than five minutes without seeing an advertisement for a mortgage, whether it be driving down the road, it's on all the gas pumps at the gas station, it's on your phone, it's in your feeds, it's everywhere. And so if we want to be successful in the mortgage business, we need to be different, we need to stand out, be different. And this allows us to do it the end of the day, if I could boil it down to one thing, we're treating the mortgage process, like the largest transaction of a person's life. And that might sound like ridiculous, right? Because it is and why wouldn't everybody do that. But most people who do mortgages, treat it like a transaction. And so we've really built a process and a client experience around making sure that we can scale the same process every single time for our clients, and also our employees. And really even people who might be potential employees of having a just a great experience and feeling like they're loved and like they're our only client.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:55
And that's awesome. And you're right, I get, I would say at least two to three calls a day of people who want to, let's talk about your your home, and it always starts off, let's talk about your home mats, and then they give me my address. And, you know, we would love to go over your mortgage and see what we can do for you. And it's gotten to the point where you know, I tried to be nice to him and go, you know, I, I really appreciate your phone call, but I'm not interested. And then they just keep talking and talking. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've gotten to the point where I can't even be nice because it takes too much time and a hang up on him. So you go through this process with these individuals. And I am assuming that the majority of your business then comes directly back to you from individuals who have experienced this, because they're now referring their friends in because they've had such an amazing experience.
 
Michael Creed  07:50
Absolutely, with the client experiences that they're going to introduce people to us they know early on that we're looking for that introduction. And really what we do is we talk them through the process of how to actually do it. So we play for three introductions. By closing, as I had mentioned before, using our three firms strategy, our average is 1.9. So of course, we're definitely growing our business through that. And we truly try to get them to understand that we're looking for an introduction versus a referral, because the introduction one is less intrusive. And secondly, it's more, it's less salesy, that's what I mean by that. But it's also implies an action, right, a referral might mean just giving out a business card, you can't introduce people to me without actually introducing them, right. So we talked them through a process of how to make the introduction happen. And more than that, how to do it in the best way for both us and for the person they're introducing to us. Because, as you mentioned, the digital noise or the digital pollution, you know, it's kind of the word of the the times right now, right? The calls the text, the emails are out of control, I opt out of emails and texts constantly. And they just keep coming from different places all over the place. And I'm sure you and all your listeners are shaking their heads as they hear this. And we want to get through that noise. I don't want to blow these people up, you know, for example, the way that we used to do is have them give us a form at the closing. So that's their homework, to give us this form with three names, phone numbers and emails on it. And then we would reach out to those people. And a lot of times they swear at us after we call them four or five times because they're like, why are you bothering us to tell them you know that their brother connected us? And they're like, Oh, you're that guy. So we found a better way of having those introductions actually made as opposed to just the referral form, right. And it allows us to execute more. But also, the mortgage marketing machine is huge. And so still, sometimes we can even have that amazing clients experience. And I just found out today on an annual review call that I did, because we do those every year to check in with our clients that somebody had refinanced a few months ago and never even called us. And so that was very interesting because I know their kids names. In fact, I use them during the meeting, I know all the details, because part of our processes and make sure that we not only have that information, but execute on it and leverage it in time. And so sometimes we'll still miss them. And so that's where a close client strategy also really has to be coming into play. So not just the amazing client experience, it is still an amazing client experience. But it doesn't stop at the closing, which is typically when we get paid, it goes well beyond that. And sometimes we still miss it, even in a case like I just described happens. And thankfully, that's rare. But it definitely, definitely is a huge part of our business. I actually started in the mortgage business back in 2004, making phone calls for lead shops, just like what's happening, what you're talking about, and worked in about 26 States at that time, that was before personal licensing came into effect like it is today. And it's actually not the most gratifying job in the planet, because you never get to meet your customers, you know. And so, we've really moved away from that, and into a much more personal experience through what we do.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:59
Now, we've talked about this amazing client experience. And you've talked about gathering this information, knowing your clients, you know, their kids names, and, and, again, me coming from a sales, you know, world I understand, you know, some of that gathering of information, obviously, I'm in a completely different industry. So it's a very different, you know, cycle for me, but you gather some of this information, and how through that process, do you make these individuals feel special? What is it that really grabs them? Is it you know, hand holding them through it? What makes you stand out at the end to really make them go? Wow, this was this was amazing.
 
Michael Creed  11:45
That's a great question. And really, it depends on the engagement of the client. Some of them will fill are all about you format, which again, that's coming from coaching, that's nothing, it's not our thing, you'll hear all about you all over the place, but they'll fill it out completely, of course, we've modified it to make sure that the questions are what we want, we also are in a spot where we ask for it after they've already applied for the mortgage. So they already feel pretty vulnerable being that we'd have their social security numbers and assets statements and that kind of stuff in hand. So we ask a lot of details that might be a little bit harder to get in other settings. But we've already gotten through that privacy barrier with the client, but it depends on how they engage. So if a client fully fills it out, we're going to know things that lot of their favorites, a lot of things that they want to do fun facts about them, well know what they consider to be a great lending experience. And then that data is put into our lead management system where it's always available at our fingertips every time we talk to the customer. So the clients I did the interview for today mentioned something about being in their home until their oldest shot I'm sorry, their youngest child is out of the house. And so I said, are you talking about Margaret, haven't talked to these clients in over a year, but it's right there. And I know their kids ages and they didn't seem shocked that I remember their kids name, but I'm confident that they were like, How in the world do this guy remember my kid's name from a year ago? Right? That's an example of what I'm talking about. It's the little things but there are other things along the way. You know, when we are when we're talking to the client early on, we understand what their theme is or their why behind buying the house. We're going to develop that with them. And we get the details and we listen intently. And every so often, we're gonna remind them that they're one step closer to that goal. Now there's a family we had helped a few years ago, that wanted to move out of the city into a safer neighborhood because their their son was riding his bike more and more. And he wanted to get farther and farther from home and mom wanted to stop worrying. The client we did a not a review, but an actual buyer console for just today. She's buying a new house in a different area because she wants to be able to run a loan she likes to run but she can't feel comfortable running alone where she lives right now, those kinds of things, we're going to remind them along the way that they're one step closer to getting that safer home one step closer to that bigger yard. One step closer to whatever it is that their goals are. We're also going to execute on little things like their favorite candy. If we know that they will always get a note in the mail with a box that we used to do it live but we've with the pandemic, we've moved these the pandemic caused us to learn a better way. And zoom is where we're doing most of our buyer consults today because we have the same conversion rate face to face on on screen as we did in person but allows us to get better at doing those we're faster at them and of course nobody has to drive to our office so we typically don't see our clients until the closing for the first time in person these days. Prior to the pandemic we would have their favorite candy for them when they came to the buyer console now we will ship it to them with a note in there in the in the mail envelope that says you know it's an personalized note with their name written by hand basically says Leanne we look forward to showing you how sweet the mortgage process can be. So the message is the same all the time. But the candies are different every single time. So based on what they told us their favorite candy would be doing that we have to modify that isn't this summer If we don't want to send chocolate in the mail, it gets a little bit messy. But that's an example of it. And along the way, we're going to personalize as many things as we can, our entire team understands this concept. And, and always has that data available. We do a lot of mortgages. Last year, we did 470 transactions, we need to know a lot of detail and have a system to do this to do it well, and that's part of it, too. So behind the scenes, there's a very built out system to make sure that we can do this well and quickly with the volume that we're doing
 
Leighann Lovely  15:34
right now. And by the way, my favorite candy is Lindahl. So if you feel the need to, No kidding,
 
Michael Creed  15:42
no, love it, love it.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:44
So that's awesome. Those fine details, people, people leave details about themselves in every conversation they have. And often they forget that they've even left those details, you know, out to the public. So for somebody to pick up on those, those very subtle, you know, that subtle information that's available, and then to, to capitalize on, I don't think capitalize is the right word, but to turn that around, and to be able to, you know, offer those little things that are just going to kind of make them feel special, and make them feel known. And, you know, yeah, special in in any way is, is important because one of the most stressful things in life is to go through the mortgage process, the buying process of a home, it's it is one of the biggest thing, it is the biggest thing that you're ever going to buy. I mean, you're putting there, and you're right, all of the private information that you're putting out there is, it's insane. I've done it a couple of times now. And it's it's very, you know, you feel like you're standing in a room naked, and everybody's like, okay, let's pick this apart, let's examine everything, because that's what you know, you have to do in order to get a loan, because it's a huge loan. So it's awesome that you're, you know, you're making that you're making that person feel comfortable and feel special during that process. So now, you mentioned your team, people are trained on this, how do you go about making sure that your team is trained and understands this process?
 
Michael Creed  17:25
For the most part, our templates are built to drive the user of those templates to have to think so for example, in a template that's going to go up for say, a conditional approval, it's going to start with congratulations, you're one step closer to and then it says in all caps, insert theme here. And so that means they're going to have to look in the lead management system, find out why the person is buying a house and then craft in their own words, that sentence. And so they're prompted throughout the process to do that. And some are better than others. In other words, some get it far better than others. And along the way, as I see them executing or not executing well, I will just gently coach them, you know, story I could tell you happened to be our office manager for a while my office manager was also my mother She has since retired, we had a client who wanted to do, they told us their favorite candy was extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles, and we're doing a class that was actually a real estate office class. So it wasn't a client but a business partner because we don't I mentioned that we do this for our employees and our customers. We also do it with our business partners that we work with regularly. They just help them see that we're different from time to time. We'll try to do it we got it there's there's regulations, we have to play with it within right stay within those rules. But you know, some chocolate is not a big deal. When we know it's their favorite. And so this one was mentioned extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles. And when the package came back to the office for me to do what I need to do with it, it was just dark chocolate Linda truffles. And she had mentioned that's close enough. And so then at that point, we have a conversation about how it's not it's either if someone's that specific where they say extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles, you have no option but to get them extra dark chocolate Linda truffles now if they just say they like chocolate, you can get anything right as long as it's chocolate and not a Snickers bar or something like that. Because that has chocolate in it but it isn't chocolate. So it the nuances like that, we just have to train in it as as we can, because you never really know how it's going to come up. But if the if the user of the templates the person in the system that's doing that part of the job, whether it's pre contract, post contract, post closing whatever that might be, they they are prompted pretty easily to do the best with that and then the salespeople they know that information is valuable so if they're on their A game when they're in the in the system making their calls, they're going to have a right there and be in the record so that they can easily see what we have?
 
Leighann Lovely  20:02
Well, and that's it, I would think that it's got to be kind of fun to, you know, this is my personality, I feel like it's kind of fun to be able to like, oh, wow, I get to, you know, order this or I get to put, you know, this package together whatever it might be. Yeah, I would think that would be kind of fun. And I love doing that kind of stuff I love, you know, sending little gift baskets to my clients, or hey, you're appreciated that kind of things, and for you would be clients. And so I would assume that, you know, some of your team really enjoy doing that. And maybe some of your team. It's just like, Okay, it's just the thing we do.
 
Michael Creed  20:45
Yeah, a lot of our a lot of our team members actually utilize my wife, she's, that's her, my wife's works for the company, as well as for the branch. And that's her primary job is to procure a lot of these things for us. Not the candy, but the rest of it, the stuff that we do later in the process. And they enjoy that because they don't have to do it. You know, I actually, I don't enjoy that process to find those things, either. But it is fun to give them but finding them is different, right? And so, you know, and really, and I think that it takes a very thoughtful, not necessarily stressed out person is in the loan officer thing. I don't know if that's necessarily a term, but I like to use it is very complicated. You know, I've been doing this for almost 18 years. And still, every single week come across something I've never seen before, my most recent example was just yesterday, right? And so it's stressful in that area, because you again, are dealing with the largest transaction or person's life, you want it to go smooth. And you know that everything relies on that experience being amazing from start to finish. And so I don't have a lot of free brain space to figure out what the gift might be. Unless the client makes it obvious, then we would pass that along to Lynn. But the fact is, some people do love it. But everybody loves getting the gift. And we track what we're when this would be coming to the thank you gift at closing. We track that. So we know what's in the package. When they open it. We can we're not surprised just the same because I might not have picked it out. But they love getting those and having that done. Absolutely. It's fun, for sure for everybody. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  22:21
Okay, so now you've mentioned that your mother worked with you, your wife works with you. So now I've got to ask like, Do you have any other family members working with you?
 
Michael Creed  22:34
Do you not so the reason that my mom actually landed here was because I had hired a mom was an assistant to Teresa, who is my primary assistant. And so I had hired Teresa as a loan officer who's before she decided to move into my primary pre approval expert role. And so my mother was actually wrapping up kind of the tail end of her career at the bank that Teresa was at, and she was actually Teresa's assistant. And then our office manager, front desk person had resigned. So I just brought my mother over for a couple years. And I learned a lot through that process. She's not technically savvy at all, and I am the exact opposite of that. I'm also the one where I just like, just think about it and then do it Don't Don't make me write you 100 page manual and how it goes. So it was stressful for me to have that happen. But on the same note, the person who had left the position was the exact opposite of that was really good at getting things done, but really bad at people skills, like she would intentionally make the coffee late in the morning because she knew it really irritated somebody she didn't like, my mom was the exact opposite of that. And that being sweet and loving to everybody. They loved her. They called her the office mom, but at the same time. So that was good for morale, but there wasn't much work. And my wife, she was like an experiment would be the best way to describe that with assistance, like what does that look like? So she is my first ever assistant, she helped us with the loan process. She hated it. She felt like she wanted people to get their loans more than they wanted them to get their loans. And then because like you mentioned, you know, it's a stressful process, you use the term naked. I would normally say that too. But I wasn't sure if you're cool with it. But now that I know you are that what I would say is you know, people have already been fully exposed or naked. When we ask them for the information on the all about you. That's typically what I'd say. But now that we're cool, and we can talk like that, that's good.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:36
Using that what's not talked about? Actually, you know, anything beyond that.
 
Michael Creed  24:40
I know what you mean, I know what you mean, we're good. But that is a that is a process that I think people would hate and my wife did not enjoy chasing that at all chasing those documents. Like why do I want you to get your loan more than you, you know, like, that's kind of her very clear, you know, get move a mindset that she has. And so she she has gone from being an active role in loan processing went in loan process went into actually a support role in processing for a while. And that she found really stressed her out because she ultimately was feeling the weight on her shoulders of getting these people out of the houses on time. And if something was looking ugly, she couldn't do it. And she had always found that behind the scenes is exactly where she wants to be, where the time is not, you know, it's not if she misses a getting a closing gift on time. It's not the end of the world, though, she's pretty good about making sure it happens. But ya know, other family members know a lot of family, you know, we do have other teams that have relations, a lot of our people know everybody, in fact, every single person, but one that works in my branch, has been referred to us by somebody else, sometimes there's been relations. So
 
Leighann Lovely  25:49
that's, that's fun. Well, that means that you have an environment where people, you know, for, if you have employees who are referring people that they know that they love in that means that you have a company that people want to work at, which means that you have a great culture there. And, you know, if you are able to have a great culture, and create an awesome experience for your clients, you're clearly doing something, right. I mean, it's sad to say, but there are a lot of companies out there that can't do either one of those things. Sure. And, you know, to have both of those down. That's awesome.
 
Michael Creed  26:30
It's about being intentional and doing the work, you know, I'll stand on stages, whether it be you know, be the large stages, like what you've seen me speaker talk about coming here on a digital stage where, you know, the audience size could be massive, right. And as as, as you grow, and tell people what we do, because it I know that most people won't do it, the work, you have to put the work in to make this work, you have to put the work in to make anything, you can't be great. Just sitting around, you know, sometimes you can figure something out, or you can set it and forget it. But you know, that's kind of the quintessential American dream, right? And you see that stuff on social media from time to time. But that's because before you got to that place, there was you know, lots of hours of work, right? And that's, that's where it comes in. But yeah, you have to be intentional to do the work in all those areas.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:21
Right. And I've heard that, you know, this season, I have heard multiple people use that word, that one single word, intentional, it's a simple, you have to be intentional about what you want your actions, the things you want to change. I mean, that's it's a simple, one word kind of explains it all. And so, well, you didn't have a straight path to where you are. Right now. You've you've kind of gone through, you know, little, you know, valleys and hills and mountains. I said that completely wrong, but you know, it doesn't matter. Anyways, I'd love to hear your story of of where you are, and how you landed here.
 
Michael Creed  28:09
Yes, definitely. mountains and valleys, no doubt about that. And usually, they were pretty big ones. I mean, the, the fact is, is that the mortgage industry is one that pays well, when you do well. And when I started in 2004, it was before all the rules were in place that they are today to try to protect the consumer in some ways that they, they needed to be right, they need to be protected from the lenders and the loan officers in some ways. And so my first year in the business, I was in my mid 20s. And and came fresh out of college and had a six figure commission income. And that was right, that was great. I was on the mountain started with the mountains, right. And we were on the mountains for a while. And and then eventually, the housing market crashed. And that faucet turned off so fast. I don't know that we would even say I went from the peak to the valley, I'm pretty sure it was peak straight over the cliff to the valley, and how that all came about. And we went from having business coming out of our ears to nothing. We're actually in a similar cycle two that right now it's not as dramatic as it had been. But coming out of the pandemic where the rates have been crazy low, the lowest ever in the recorded history of mortgage rates and housing frenzy like nothing to now we're we're in we're seeing record inflation and rates rising faster than they ever had. If you look at the history of data going back to 1971 and never risen as fast as they are now. So we're kind of getting into that. It looks like a mountain on the on the rate graph, but really it's a valley. But the difference is is is that along the way, we came from being a commodity or I and my team and our business model came from being a commodity like I said, you can get a mortgage anywhere. I mentioned that earlier, to being value adds to our business partners, to our staff and our team members, even people outside of the industry that we might not necessarily work with every single day, but still could use some of our concepts to be better. And, and then of course, our clients right so that they keep coming back over and over, or they send us their family, their kids even sometimes happens now, right as as as the career progresses. And so that definitely smooths the roller coaster ride that the market can create. If you're being transactional all the time. Does that answer your question?
 
Leighann Lovely  30:29
Yes. So in 2004 it so you've been in the industry since 2004? Correct. And never wavered from the industry.
 
Michael Creed  30:40
Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:41
So you've, you've you, wow, okay, so you wrote it out? While many people in your position, we're running for the hills, you just jumped on your surfboard and went over the cliff and hoped that not your surfboard, your your, what do you ride down mountains, I know, there's some type of boards. You just, you just decided, hey, I'm gonna jump on my snowboard. And I'm gonna see if I, if I actually hit something at the bottom of this cliff, and you kept riding that roller coaster. And as we all know, that, you know, no matter what things eventually do bounce back. But wow, that's, that's intensity.
 
Michael Creed  31:27
It is it was a lot and it wasn't easy. You know, I know that your question of the season is, if you could is this if you could go back and to your younger self and your your, your your younger self advice? When would you go back to? And what advice would you give yourself? That's the question of the season. And the answer to that is really a follow up to your statement that you just made, I would have gone back to that person who was in his mid 20s, making crazy amounts of money, he came from a background that was nothing like that, and tell him to not spend every one of those dollars, the money was coming in just as going out just as fast as it was coming in. Right. And then, like you mentioned the cliff. And what my surfboard slash snowboard stopped on was to the point where I had a rental property tenant stopped paying the rent. And then that's when the faucet had shut off. And I mentioned that earlier, the faucet had shut off already. And I had gotten to the point where I had a Rolex in my closet that I had won for being the top producer a couple of years earlier, I never wore it, I'm not a fancy watch kind of guy, I will typically damage them in whatever things I'm doing with my activities, like rock climbing, for example, will really ruin a watch and learn that the hard way, I never worked, I had to pull that closet out or that that that Rolex out of my closet and sell it on eBay, to keep myself from missing a payment. Like that's how bad it was right? Like, literally one month away from the house of cards being completely blown over that I don't. And so the advice would be, and in fact, I've been telling my team this regularly for the last two years as we were through the pandemic making more loans than we've ever made before, which of course means more money than ever before, that if they're not saving most of their money right now, they're crazy, because it's going to stop and it's going to be ugly. And we're there right now. And so that would be the younger, that would be the advice, I would have done things way different back then, from a financial perspective, to to live wisely within that because not only had I been spending all that money, I continued to use credit cards for a while afterwards expecting you to come back quickly and got myself almost into $100,000 in debt, with credit cards outside of my mortgage and my car loans and all these other debts that I had, because that's just how I lived debt servicing that ultimately put us on a path where we had about, I think it took us seven or eight years to climb out of that. Because while I really wanted to file bankruptcy. So we see that stuff all the time, right? That the laws are there for a reason to help people get a new start when they need to. But I couldn't wrap my head around doing that when I bought all those things that I didn't really need. And so we really we mean my wife and I, cuz she's been along for this whole ride. We've been married 21 years, the that we really had to hunker down and completely change everything and move from a space of spending all the time to paying back all that debt and saving at the same time and it took a very long time to do it. But that would be the advice that answer your question of the season for sure would be that.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:36
So thank you for sharing that but I'm going to wrap this I'm going to I'm going to sum all of that up so instead of so here's what you're in essence saying instead of riding the surfboard and have the surfboard habit we're at a mountain Do you have a surfboard? So Zen of riding the damn board down you should have put On parachutes are parachutes, and slowly gone down.
 
Michael Creed  35:05
But yeah that's That's exactly right having having a parachute is it would have been would have been that safety net that makes this, these droughts that much easier. There's no doubt about that.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:17
And I appreciate you sharing that because you know, a lot of people, and, and hey, I'm I'll be perfectly honest around that time, I ended up having to file for bankruptcy, but I did not have a savings I did not have. I was, I had recently graduated with my college degree, I was working in corporate HR, and I got laid off, and from there it was laid off, get a job, layoff people let get laid off myself, and eventually it was just, uh, every time I got a new job it was for, I think what I started, I was making nearly 60,000 a year with a new degree, and then it was get a job get laid off and get 5000 Less get laid off and get another 5000 loss. And eventually, it was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm making, you know, $35,000 a year, and I was making almost 16 it was like, how am I going to survive? I mean, and I just just graduated with $100,000 in student loans.
 
Michael Creed  36:23
Right? Yes. And that, that, like I said, those rules are there for a reason? I don't I don't I don't ever think poorly of someone that uses it. I think it's like it's there for a reason. But you're absolutely right. You know, and I that's the stance that I took was just me trying to wrap my head around it because it wasn't an educate. I mean, I had student loans too, don't get me wrong, really, the credit cards were what got me it was almost $90,000 Like I said, in credit cards, if that means I bought $90,000 of stuff I didn't need, like, you know, whether it be eating out or you know, cocktails or junk that I don't you know, clothing, whatever it might be. Right. And so that was for me, it was it just I couldn't do it.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:07
You know. And I had I had I actually had contacted every single one of my and I have very small amount and contacted every single one of my debtors. And I said, I am I'm at a point where I cannot pay my bills. I had insurance on one of them that if I had gotten to that point that they would cover me, there was only one holdout I had $3,500. And it was through a bank and I will not name the bank. I said I cannot pay it. I want to make good on this. I don't want to have to file bankruptcy, but I cannot make my payments. Will you work with me until I'm back on my feet? And they said no. If you don't make your payment, we are going to be forced to sue you. And I went, You gotta be kidding me. Every one of my other debtors are willing to work with me. And they said, Sorry, it's our policy. And that was at the point where I said, I have no choice, but to file for bankruptcy. Then you do it over $3,500
 
Michael Creed  38:05
Surprise me I live and breathe in that industry as I do. Right. So lots of lots of rules that we have to follow. But right. And I say That was sarcasm, of course there's there are a lot of good ones don't get me wrong, but there are some head scratchers for sure. Where it would make sense to just do something that makes sense.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:24
And, Well it's, again, their, it's their corporate policy. And you know, once a month, they take all of their non payers to court all at the same time. It's just polished. I get it, you know, this is the way the world works. But anyways, tangent. So we've answered the question of the season, we have a couple of more minutes, you talked about your wife working with a company now here's, here's something I know about you that I would love, just to briefly touch on, because I am all about, you know, work life balance, I'm all about, you know, making sure that we have, you know, we do what we love, we, you know, have that that balance in our life and that we're able to walk away and enjoy life because we don't wake up in the morning saying, hey, I want to live to work. Rather, we work to live. And you have been very vocal about the you know about your family about you know that you set boundaries, and you have date night set with your wife, tell me about you know, the the philosophy behind your work life balance and how you've income to make sure that you set those boundaries for yourself.
 
Michael Creed  39:35
So my natural bend is to work all the time. That will be my default. If I have nothing else to do, I'm going to work always. And I think that that's probably I saw that in my dad. In fact, I didn't see him much growing up because he was working all the time. So I've tried to be intentional and again back to that word of in parts of my life. And so a lot of the things that I do are in first, right so I have priorities and I know what they are My faith is number one, and I need to be, I need to make sure that I'm reading the Bible. Every day. I don't hit it every day but I hit it most my wife is second my family and then my my work, which means my customers, my staff, the whole nine yards. And so and and part of being able to be who I need to be for all those things is also making sure that I'm feeling good. I'm in the best shape of my life. Right now, for example, because I finally figured out that working out is what keeps my brain clear. I figured that out, like four years ago, I am in my 40s. And I figured that out four years ago, I figured a lot of things out in the last say seven ish years about the activities that I do today, that really helped me to thrive. And so there's not just the date night, there's a lot of things every morning I wake up, the only day that I do not days that I do not work out are Sunday mornings, and Wednesday mornings, otherwise, I work out every other day, first thing in the morning. But before I even do that, I will meditate it and also done some my Bible reading my devotions for the day. And then I work. And I generally will work until around six or seven at night, I usually get home between six and seven. I'll hang out with my family for a little bit. But they're teenagers at this point. So they're gone half the time. And so I often have to work a little bit more when I get home. But in the day, that's a day that I don't have something in the evening, which is really only a Monday and some Tuesday. So every other Tuesday I'm leading our community group. Every Wednesday, I'm involved in our youth group every Thursday is date night. And then by Friday, I'm exhausted. So I usually go to the sauna. perspire has their their their Infrared Saunas nearby, I'll stop there on the way home and just recharge, and then, and then I'm home. So all of those things are about having those place cards and all of my schedule rotates around those date night doesn't get moved, it's non negotiable. If anything, I might show up a little I might meet my wife that's at 630. Or she might come to somewhere where I'm if I'm at a networking event, but it's does it's non negotiable. Youth Group is non negotiable during the school year in the summertime, it's more flexible, because that's the agreement with the the leadership team, you know, but I still tried to get the most tanks, a lot of fun. It's nothing, nothing like hanging out with a bunch of teenagers to feel like I'm in my 20s again. So there's there's a lot of those things that are going on. And it comes back to the intentionality is that there's non negotiables. And sometimes things have to wait. You know, a perfect example of that was you and I meeting up for lunch, it almost took me almost a month to get back to a date a while back the date that we can meet for lunch, because there's a group of things that just have to sit there until I can get to him. Just yesterday, I reached out to somebody, it's now June. We're recording this in June. I hope that's okay to say that the they email me about having lunch in April. And I just hadn't gotten to it right. And so there's importance in priorities, and we have to figure out what those are. And it can't be work. Because if you do that eventually then everything around you go sour and you don't have importance. You know, none of those things I was talking about are moneymakers for me, but they keep my brain in a place where I can be my best me when I'm here. It also forces me to be more efficient. I still work about 55 hours a week, I track that I report back to my team every for every day, my personal production team and my whole branch every Friday what I've done, there's a lot list of activities, and I work a lot. There's no doubt about that. But I still get all those other things done. And it's about being intentional and never making excuses.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:34
And that's awesome. As long as you're happy with the hours that you work as long as your family is happy with the hours that you work in the time that you spend with them. There. It's absolutely there's nothing wrong with that. It I mean is. It's different for every single person, right? Yeah. And my husband will sometimes tell me you work too much. And I'm like, Well, I I don't work. I put in my 40 hours, 40 plus hours. That's not why I put in, you know, a lot of hours that my day job. And then I spend I spend a great deal of time. And he's usually when my family is sleeping on my podcast because it's my passion project. It's I enjoy it. I love it. It's something that you know, I it clears my head, I have fun with it. I have a four year old so I do it when she's sleeping. She goes to bed at 730 at night. And I also have a date night because those those are all things that are extremely important to the the overall wellness. My overall mental wellness, my overall health, wellness, the balance that we find and you've clearly found a balance that works for you. i You know, it's just it's the people who Oh, I work 70 hours a week and you know, look at me be proud of me. Well, what where's your life?
 
Michael Creed  44:49
Right? I smiled when you mentioned that that's you know that we all have our own number because every one of these things that I do also has a goal and I in some things I want to be under goals, some things I want to be over the goal, right? And my goal for hours worked is 45. And I have yet to find a way to do that. You know, so it's 55 is more than I want to work. It's more than my family wants me to work. But it isn't. I mean, there were times where it was, like 70 hours. There's no doubt about that. But a lot of it comes down to just being able to say no, sometimes to or have people wait, I you know, it's just again, back to the priorities and intentionality.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:27
Absolutely. And you know, what, a lot of wildly successful people do have trouble saying no. While they are on their way to success, once they get to the top, they have figured out that not and I shouldn't say to the top. But once they've gotten to a certain level, they realize, Wow, I need to learn how to say no. Right? That's all part of the learning process. Absolutely. Michael, this has been such an amazing conversation. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Michael Creed  46:00
There's two ways to reach out one, if you're just looking for information on on who we are applying for a mortgage exctera, you can just go to my website, which is closewithmichael.com C l O S E W I T H M I C H A E L . C O M. I'm sure you'll have that mentioned somewhere as well, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  46:19
Yep.
 
Michael Creed  46:19
And if you want to text us, our team line is open for anybody. It's Area code 262-696-9048. That's 9048. Just shoot us a text. It's a bunch of us on that line, someone will get back to you pretty quickly, even outside hours in many cases. And it's a great way to just say hi,
 
Leighann Lovely  46:40
Excellent. Like I said, this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time today. And all of that information on how to reach out to you will be in the shownotes
 
Michael Creed  46:49
Very cool. Thank you so much for your time. It was great to talk to you. We
 
Leighann Lovely  46:53
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Website – www.closewithmichael.com  
Text line for information - 262-696-9048
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelcreed/
 
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
client, mortgage, people, mentioned, team, loan officer, michael, process, business, closing, year, work, riding, point, execute, wife, person, home, lead, absolutely
 

Episode 6 - Dr. Batsheva Guy - Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

Dr. Batsheva Guy is one amazing woman with determination and dedication not only in her personal life but in her professional life. She specializes in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion consulting. She is highly educated; she is a mother but most importantly Sheva is a person that wears her heart on her sleeve and is honest. This was a one-of-a-kind conversation that is worth listening to.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Today I have the privilege and honor of speaking with an amazing strong woman, Dr. Batsheva Guy is a change management consulting Senior Associate, a Diversity Equity and Inclusion consultant, and participatory action researcher. She is an alumnus of the educational and community based action research doctorial program at the University of Cincinnati, Sheva implements participatory and community based methods to engage and support diverse groups and advocate for inclusive and equitable practices in higher educational and healthcare institutions to drive change management. Sheva, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you. You have such an amazing background and you're so authentic and out there. So I'm really excited to jump in. Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  02:08
Absolutely. So thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. This is my first podcast. So I'm, I'm really pumped. Yeah, my name is Dr. Batsheva Guy, but everyone calls me Sheva. I'm also open to Bat that's also chill. So I currently am in an interesting spot because I am amidst transitioning careers. So I was in academia for 10 years, I was at the University of Cincinnati, throughout my undergraduate, my masters my doctoral degree, and I worked primarily in educational development, Student Affairs, and diversity and inclusion work. So really, the backbone of what I do is diversity inclusion. And then the research side of things is I'm obsessed with participatory methods and participatory engagement. So that's kind of the crux of what I do. And so currently, I transitioned into consulting. So that's a little bit about my career. I'm also a mom, I've got three awesome kids, my two older sons were eight and nine. We adopted them in 2020. And then I had my daughter who's now two and a half in December 2019. So amidst the pandemic, we went from zero to three kids, my husband and I, it was a certainly an adventure, but it was a great time. Let's see what else I love to travel. I love to read love to cook. Some of the things I enjoy doing in my free time.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:42
Awesome. And you also have some amazing tattoos, which I have, you know, you were very open. I love the fact that, you know, you have pictures of them online, which is another great. This is another movement that I have seen, which is it was beautiful. I'm actually if people could see them there. They're absolutely beautiful. It's a form of of artwork. Definitely. So. So you you mentioned that you're amidst a career change. So where are you you know, headed right now. What's, what's this career change?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  04:18
Yeah, so I yeah, like I mentioned, I was at the University of Cincinnati for 10 years, you know, never honestly never thought that I was going to leave but then COVID hit and I realized there's a lot out there in terms of flexibility in work and being able to utilize my transferable skills, the great resignation and whatnot, all that fun stuff. I had a brief stint at a company I shall not name doing diversity and inclusion consulting work, but in a nutshell, they weren't ready for diversity and inclusion. They just weren't ready to really embrace it for everything that I was. So I started looking for something knew I was unemployed for a bit hung out with my family. And by happenstance came upon here on through LinkedIn. So as you mentioned, I'm super active on LinkedIn, talk about my tattoos and what it means to really be professional, not look, judging a book by its cover all of that fun stuff. So yeah, I'm pivoting and I'm doing change management consulting, which I feel like utilizes a lot of my skills in my past, like research data, participatory methods, integrating a lot of inclusive practice into that making sure that diverse populations feel included, feel a sense of belonging are able to bring their voice to the table and feel like they have access to that table. So even though it's a whole new world, I feel like everything I've done in the past has led me to this point. And yeah, I'm learning something new every single day, my team is awesome. But we have this little list of terms and acronyms that they use it at my company a lot. And I'm like turned into that all the time. Because I'm so new. I'm like, someone just said something, let me ping someone on teams are looking at this list to figure out what's going on. So it's definitely been a transition not without its challenges, but I was really lucky to have a ton of support, and find a place that really saw my skills as transferable and as, as a positive as opposed to oh, she's never done consulting before, we're not going to take a chance on her. So I'm very grateful for that
 
Leighann Lovely  06:26
Oh, that's awesome. And, you know, this is a world of definitely a world of pivoting and changing. And, you know, it's amazing over the last couple of years, how much we all have had to do that. The great companies out there are are realizing that they have to be able to pivot constantly in order to stay, I guess, stay in front of the curve as much as possible. So that's awesome. So you again, you mentioned that you are a mom, I like to always put that one first. As you know, I am a mother first. You know, I am I am a wife, and and then my career, but so you have three children. You mentioned that you No, I did not realize that while you became a mother of three, like all at the pretty much at the same time.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  07:16
Yep. Within months. Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:19
Wow. So do you mind talking to me a little bit about that? I mean, did this or was this a whoops, we didn't realize or I mean.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  07:31
So it's like a risk was a really interesting story. So not to get into like the nitty gritty details, but my husband always struggled with fertility issues. And we had always talked even aside from you know, trying to have biological children fostering. And so we decided, you know, let's just go for it. Let's sign up for foster care classes. This was early 2019, maybe spring 2019. We're like, Let's go for it. So we started doing the foster care classes. Really awesome community. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, shout out to beat shakers, who got our foster care license through their phenomenal. And yeah, so we started pursuing our foster care license. And we were doing like, for the foster to adopt program. Knowing that the goal of foster care is reunification, not anticipating we'd be able to adopt anytime soon. I'm really just wanted to provide a home for kiddos that are in a transition period and just give them the love and support that they need. So we were doing those foster care classes. And it was actually and they were every and they were like every Saturday for several for a few months. Like they were intense, like all day. And it was actually the it was actually Mother's Day weekend that I was like, I was about to start birth control again. And I was like, I feel funny. I'm going to take a pregnancy test. So I still had a bunch of my old like, so I was taking pregnancy test constantly, when we're doing fertility. I was like, I'm gonna take a pregnancy test. So I took one, I took another one I took another and I was like this cannot like this cannot be happy. So I wake my husband up, I was like, hey, time for Tiger ready for foster care class, by the way, I'm pregnant. And so it was like it was one of those things where like, if you miss a class, you have to wait several months to be able to take it again. So we're like, Okay, we just found out that we're pregnant. And we have to get up at eight, like seven in the morning on a Saturday to get to this class that starts at eight or nine or whatever, across the city from us. And so we keep taking the classes, keep taking the classes, disclose to our social worker like hey, just you know, like we are expecting and we have to the class we're like, we're already in this like we're we can get our foster care license and then wait to foster kids or you know, do whatever. So, we got our foster care license, and I'm in August 2019. And I was due I was due January 2020. And So we got her foster care license August 2019. And we got asked to do a two week respite care for two boys that were five and six. And for those of you who don't know respite care is kind of kids that are in between foster homes or the Foster, there's a foster parent that maybe having a surgery or a major life event or is going on a trip, they can take the kids to have a transition place for up to two weeks. So they asked us and I said, You know what? I suppose like, I'm like, we'll be fine. Like, well, taking these kids for two weeks come to find out that their previous foster home, they were having some health issues, and they weren't able to continue to continue fostering them. So they were in respite care with us. They could find another foster home, sir with us. And we're like, Well, why? Because I guess we're only on the respite list because of the baby coming. And we said, Okay, this is ridiculous. Like these kids don't need to move again. They had moved like five times in the last year. Like crazy what these like awful what these kids have gone through. And so I'm like, they're staying here. They're not moving and going anywhere else. So they were with us. Ever since they've been with us ever since we I ended up having my daughter. Almost four weeks early. I went into labor on Christmas. 2019. So yeah, it was insane. It's like three in the morning, the day after Christmas was when I had my daughter. She wasn't due till like January 19 or 20th or something like that. So then, you know, the boys are in school in person in school, and I was on maternity leave. And then the week I was supposed to go back was March 13 2020. So that was the week that everything shut down. So I never came back officially, quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes from maternity leave. I was like, Okay, now I've got I mean, my husband, of course was there and he was he was working at the time. But once I came realize like, this is going to be like this for a while with the kids in virtual school and my daughter at home. My husband ended up quitting to become a stay at home dad and we just went to parents of three like that. And then that next November was when we adopted the boys. That is all 2020 Oh, my Oh, from OG between August and December 2019. One three months, one from zero children to three of them. It was
 
Leighann Lovely  12:26
wow, that's that is amazing. That I have no words for that that you and your husband are are amazing to to be able to take that on. I mean, that wow.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  12:42
You know, people's everyone says like, Oh, you're so amazing. You're so wonderful. And I'm like you should you need to be a fly on the wall and hear the chaos in the house. Like you won't call me amazing if you hear all the nonsense that goes. But yeah, it was definitely not how we planned to start our family. But it worked out perfectly. The boys have been with us for several years now. They're eight and nine. Yeah, and they're doing just they're doing fantastic. Like they're thriving. They're Yeah, they're doing great. They're amazing big brothers. My daughter is like obsessed with them like she does every I swear the reason why she like walked so early talked so early is because of I swear it's because of them, like mimicking them and wanting to be just like them.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:24
That's great. That's absolutely awesome. And what a role model that these boys and your little your daughter is going to have is somebody who's, you know, out there being so authentic and you know, wanting to help and you know, change the views of the world to try to, you know, help with inclusion and diversity. And so let's let's, you know, you are a very outspoken woman, you're, you know, willing, willing to say what everybody in the room is thinking. And I love people like that, because I have a tendency to be that person as well at times. And sometimes my husband looks at me and goes, you did and and I'm like, oh, oh, oops, sorry. I'm not the only one thinking it. Right. Right. So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk a little bit about some of the things that you've you that you, I guess, say that everybody's thinking.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  14:23
Yeah, so I Yeah, I'm definitely I'm transparent, honest, authentic. Like, I feel like I there I feel like there's so many people out there that feel like they have to hide who they really are in a professional space. And I I personally I can't work that way. I was trying to be really intentional because at my university, I felt like I could be the where I was working. I felt like I could be authentic and I really wanted to find a place that embrace me for all of what I was. So there's a lot of things that I shout about one of them as you mentioned being tattoos like I've got a chess piece I've got a sleeve You're like, my arms are probably going to be my back is covered like everything. I mean, I've got lots of tattoos, I've got piercings, I've got all of it. And that doesn't change who I am as a professional person, I have a Master's, I have a PhD, I do continuing education, like, none of that has, like has anything to do with you know what I can do, right. And some other aspects that I like to talk about a lot is mental health. I have anxiety, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, I have some PTSD symptoms, I've struggled with an eating disorder, and none of that. And because I feel like because I persevered through that I am better at my job, I'm able to take care of my kids and understand what they're going through at a level that I'm proud of. And I embrace all of those labels, because that's who I am. And I understand when people don't want to talk about it, it. It's not everyone's journey to be that loud person. But I feel like by being loud about these things about what really makes people professional and what makes people even better at what they do, you know, I feel like that. I feel like it helps others in a way, like being able to hear someone else that has gone through what they have gone through. And say like, Hey, this may be a label, but it's not who you are, it has made you stronger, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about it. Because this is our whole lives. Like I may come into work one day, and you know, I'm having a really bad anxiety day. Right? And I want to be off camera. Like that should be cool, right? Or I want to work remote that day. If I'm not normal job, that should be okay. As long as I'm doing my job, right. I always follow through, I do what I have to do I meet my deadlines. I go above and beyond. And I have multiple diagnoses. And I've got a bunch of tattoos. Whatever, you know, who cares
 
Leighann Lovely  16:58
We are not one thing. We are like an onion, we are multiple layers of a whole bunch of different things. And if we were only one thing, wouldn't that kind of be boring?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  17:10
Exactly. Exactly. And like, yeah, and I feel like one of one of the other things like I told him, You know, I, I talk about a lot of things like on LinkedIn, especially that like can skirt the line between Oh, is that getting too political is like getting to this or that. But we live in this. We live in a world where we can just decide like what goes on despite what's going on in the world. Right? Like, like so like, socially, politically, all of it like with all the shootings that have been going on in the US, how am I supposed to continue quote, unquote, business as usual, when I'm terrified for my children going to school every day, I'm afraid for my black sons who walked down to the bus stop, what can happen between the House and the bus stop? What's going to happen to them at school, you know, those are things that I can't help but bring with me every day. But I feel like it allows me to see to to have a perspective on diversity and inclusion in the workplace, that if I wasn't bringing that to work every day, I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:19
Right? We're no longer living in a time period of the Leave It to Beaver where the you know, the dad comes home from work and drops his his briefcase at the door, and all of a sudden is a family man. And the reverse where he goes to work and he's the businessman. The line has now bled into both we are who we are. And we need to be because trying to compartmentalize those two different, you know, areas, or those two different lives is unhealthy. First of all, trying to be a different person at those two different places all the time. It's it is truly unhealthy. You're you're constantly trying to put up a barrier. And it just it's not sustainable. It's not. Right. And it has proven time and time again, that the more authentic you are, the more people want to be around the authentic people. Right? That the more and I've seen this as a salesperson, the more authentic I am in front of my clients and my customers, the more they want to work with me and the more they appreciate working with me. So I can't be my authentic self if I'm not being my whole self, the whole person I am which means that there are times that I'm going to talk about my daughter there's times that I'm going to talk about this puppy I just recently got that won't stop biting me line that everybody thinks exists. It is now bleeding over into you know everything. I can no longer walk in, drop my baggage and say okay, I'm now working Leighann, And as far as the way that we look and the way that we're past the whole idea that you have to wear this pressed suit that starched and, and be, and that's what's going to be the professional, I see people come into professional meetings all the time wearing jeans and a nice shirt. I see professionals all the time wearing a variety of, there's no long we're not living in a day where you have to wear stockings with a dress, and women wear skirts and men wear suits and tights. That's not how business is conducted anymore. And I think that over the last two years, with us sitting in our homes, and half the people, you know, stand up and they're wearing pajama pants proves that we can do our job without putting on this uncomfortable suit. To do the job. Oh, yeah. And that. Right. And we, as a society have so long talked about, oh, the arts, you know, you know, you go to an art show, and oh, the arts are so wonderful. Well, who's to say that art has to be done on one, you know, art can be anything, I could think that art is beautiful on whatever your chosen art form is? If that is tattoos, if that is piercings if that is, I don't know, painting your dog blue. Again, I have dogs on the ring. If that's right, right. If that is your chosen form of art, as long as it is not hurting anybody, ethical moral, all of those not illegal, then, why are we judging other people? Right? We have sold it that has nothing to do with how we do business. It is simply and it has nothing to do with intelligent level and has nothing to do with anybody not being able to do a job. So get over yourself people, right?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  21:58
I completely agree with that notion. This is what I tell my kids to like, the biggest thing is to make sure that you are keeping yourself safe and that you're not hurting anybody. Like all of the rules in our house are based around that like respect and safety. And, you know, none of my tattoos are offensive. Heck, this sleeve is from a children's film that's from Alice in Wonderland. Like my entire arm is from Alice in Wonderland. Right. So yeah, that's my thought too. Like, I curse like a sailor. But I'm not saying any words to hurt anybody. I'm saying it because I stub my toe or because I'm excited. Right, like, and so that's also you know, what I what I kind of instill in my children is, is Yeah, express your creativity, you know, be open as long as everyone's as long as someone's getting hurt, and you're not hurting anyone. Good. Go for it, do it. Show yourself as who you authentically are. And I agree to that. COVID like has blurred the lines so much between like, what is work and what is personal life, like the other day I was on a call and I mentioned to you earlier that I'm we're potty training our two and a half year old and she just like decided to open my office door without pants on and just start running around. And I was meeting with like, I was a it was a director or managing director at Huron. I can't remember who it was at the time. But this has happened a couple of times, but also, okay, like, this is cool. And they were like, it's so chill. Like, I have a three-year-old or whatever. It's not a big deal. I get it, you know? And so I just got up and I closed the door and was I wearing yoga pants? Yes, I was was I wearing pajama pants, maybe one of those two was definitely my MO and I'm still doing my job. You know, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And really what I care about people like that's like the crux of like, everything that I do. And so as long as I'm demonstrating that I think being authentic, you can do an even better job connecting to people, as you mentioned by being authentic. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  23:58
Right now as we sit, I am sitting in my my studio and behind me is my my child and I's art room. And I have a bunch of drawings that her and I did together. I love it. Right? I mean, I I'm not I suppose I can put up a you know, a curtain and I do have curtains for certain meetings, but I'm not you know, this is this is me. This is my daughter and eyes, you know, and sometimes it's a talking piece. I've had kids, like you said, I've had guests, kids pop in there and they all of a sudden they're like, oh, there's Mickey and I'm like, oh yeah.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  24:36
She'll go Mickey Mouse Minnie Mouse.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:40
Right, This is this is where my studio is. It's the only place that I have actual privacy in my home. So yep, you know, it is what it is and we've seen now what I can't remember which it was a news caster. He was doing an ad Interview. And his this was like a live interview and his daughter came running in. And there was nothing that he could do. And yes, and then you see his wife come running down. And she literally, like slid into the room on her knees trying to stop the young children. And then later, he actually did. Okay, let's redo this. But let's properly introduce my family instead of this, like chaotic moment happening. I think that was an eye opener for the country. It was, oh, we have personal lives behind that closed door. There might be chaos inciting. And I think that we all we've all experienced it, where we're like, oh my gosh, is that door about to open? Because I can hear them behind it. And it's like, and, and like you mentioned, you know, your, your two-year-old in a two and a half year old potty training, hey, I've got a I got a four year old. So yeah, that was all happening in my house, you know, during the pandemic, where I'm like, Oh, my God. And, and again, my daughter loves to run around the house naked, you know, getting ready for bath, and she's just like, I want to be naked. And I'm like,
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  26:13
Yeah, she's like, let's go. No Clothes run around. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  26:18
If it wasn't, like, inappropriate for adults, I think we'd probably do it too.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  26:25
That's why we weren't comfy clothes. Like we want to be comfortable. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to be comfortable.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:32
You know, that's, that's what life is all about. It's, you know, let's find our comfort zone. And, and now it's finally blood over. But we have proven that we can do our job while life is happening.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  26:48
Yep. Yeah. And yeah, I feel like companies either have embraced it and said, like, yeah, like, Let's go all in on this and realize what this means for the future of work, or they have tried really hard to keep things the same. And I think that's the difference between a great company and a not so great. Company, right? Because you have to embrace the change and be adaptive.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:14
Absolutely. So on that topic, I would like to talk a little bit, you know, more specifically about the kind of work that you're doing. So yeah, you mentioned, you know, the participatory, you know, coaching and tell me a little bit more about how that, you know, works for you. And, you know, a little bit more about how you work with individuals, or before I got ahead of myself and say something that's not even in line with it, why don't you tell me a little bit about, you know, the specifics of the consulting that you do?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  27:49
Yeah, so I'll just kind of go back a little bit. So action research is, and participatory methods is what I got, is essentially what my doctorate was about what my dissertation and participatory methods like, it sounds like this, like big like academic speak. And it's really not, it can be used for academic research, which I have done. But it can also be used for cultural change, program development, change management, which is the field that I'm in now. And really just an I mentioned, like, people being the heart of everything that I do, and participatory methods really, in, in a nutshell, or in like, the simplest terms is making sure that all stakeholders are involved in included in decision making processes, and are able to provide feedback. So using participatory methods is a great way to keep multiple folks at all levels of an organization engaged, consistently asking for feedback, and using that feedback to take action and creating positive change. So it's really about it's not like me swooping in to an organization saying, okay, so this is all that's wrong. And this is what we need to change. And this is how we're going to do it. It's collaboratively working with folks that are in an organization from the Vice President and leadership all the way down to frontline workers, right? Every single voice is equally important. And every voice has a different perspective to bring and how we can leverage the positive aspects of what's happening in our organization. Right. So I never worked from a deficit model, and say, Okay, so these are the great things that our organization has to offer. And these are our gaps. So how can we take what's great about what we do and our people and our mission and use that to create action items to fill those gaps? So yeah, it's really collaborative. very inclusive, because it asked questions like Okay, is everyone at this everyone that needs to be at the table at the table? If they're not at the table, what are some equity issues, what's causing them not to be able to be at the table, once they're at the table, do they feel like they belong, and they can actually share their voice on what's going on. So it's very people centered, humanistic, engaging, and you have to be authentic throughout the process you have to be. So it's a very collaborative process. And you I was mentioning having to be authentic, because if you're not authentic with the stakeholders you're working with in an organization, then then you're not going to get that buy in, they're not going to trust you, they're not gonna want to implement whatever processes you suggest. And then everything just falls apart
 
Leighann Lovely  30:35
So you actually, your organization that you work for, is, is brought in, as a consulting company in my understanding this, right, and you go and you actually work with them, because they're interested in in changing the world, or figuring out how to better the culture at their organization.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  30:56
So here on actually, so that's just like the basics that are not the basis but like what I've done related to participatory research, I'm on week six of my work with her on. And I'm really hoping to be able to bring those participatory aspects into the work that here on the great work that Aaron's already doing. But I am actually on a team. And what Huron typically does is they work with higher education and health care and other organizations and institutions to implement large scale technology implementations. So I'm on the change management side. So not like a que I'm not a techy person, like, I'm not that like it kind of technical person on the team. But I feel like the change management team and the change management folks are really at the core of change happening, because we're the ones that are on the ground, gathering the feedback, seeing how things are going, providing training. And again, like that feedback loop that I was talking about making sure we're consistently getting that feedback from stakeholders, not to pick on Okay, to kind of pick on
 
Leighann Lovely  32:01
The number one organizations out there that need help our higher education and healthcare. Totally, I mean, I feel like there, then there's, there's a couple other ones out there that I can pick on, but I'm not going to I'm only because you brought those up. But yeah, I feel like I feel like healthcare is is always because they're so huge. Because they're, you know, you've got some of the the major massive companies and I can, you know, like, in here in Milwaukee, you've got like freighters and it's just this massive view of a company. And it's like, how do you even begin to help them change that culture and to, you know, make it more inclusive and make it so that the people at the top the people who have the ability to start making those changes, know what the people on the ground level, the people who are feeling, you know, the strains every day are being heard. And it sounds like that's, you know, what? It's like a software that that they can actually be able to be okay.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  33:13
Yep. And yeah, and I had cloud. Yep. Yeah. And I feel like,
 
Leighann Lovely  33:17
though, that is the type of companies that really need the help, Sam, with higher education companies, I feel like for being in the education world that they are worlds behind where they should be, you would think that they would be on the cutting edge all the time, because they're supposed to be, you know, spinning out people who are on the cutting edge of their education. Right. But I feel like internally, they're constantly struggling with that. And I, again, I don't know, the inner workings of the higher education systems, but I just feel a lot of people get very frustrated from what I've heard, from the higher education and from and from the local school, just regular education. I mean, just general school systems. It's, that's just seems backwards to me, you would think that those that that education would be at the cutting edge of of cultural change.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  34:25
Yeah, I like so. I like to describe it and I said this before and like in a variety of like different settings and contexts. But the way that I describe it just coming from a background in higher education, is that universities, they are businesses and I think he even said like I think even said company or business like in relation to that. So universities are businesses are private or private businesses, revenue, their revenue generating businesses that are masquerading as nonprofits and quite free frankly, paying their employees barely livable wages at, at best. And that's, you know, those are the people, the faculty, the staff that are supposed to be educating, you know, our next generation of leaders right are being paid quite frankly, in an embarrassing amount of money not and that's not even touching on how much K through 12 educators are making, right? I mean, it's, it's insane. So until we get to the point where we truly can demonstrate that we value, the folks that are working in education, it's just gonna, I mean, it's gonna keep falling apart the way that it is. And that was one of the reasons why I loved higher education was like, I thought I was going to stay forever. I just loved my students, I was invested so much in them. And I realized, like, when is the time to invest in myself, though. And from moving from, I was a program director, making $60,000 as a program director, with two direct reports
 
Leighann Lovely  36:07
with your doctorate with your PhD.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  36:11
And I'm very transparent about that, too. That's one of the things that I shout about is like, we need to be transparent about what we're getting paid. Because if we're not, then women are going to continue to get under underpaid people of color are going to continue to get underpaid black women are gonna continue to get underpaid, if we're not talking about it. So So I shout about it. So I within I mean, after, after that, I managed to double my salary, and then some with the benefits that I have now within a year by moving sectors, so you're gonna keep seeing this great resignation of people leaving higher ed, until we see them really put their money where their mouths are and show their educators that they value them and they want them to stay.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:52
Well, and I think that we're going to see, I, in my personal opinion, I think that we're going to see higher education start to crumble, because less and less companies are putting as much emphasis on higher education, because I think, in part there, they're failing at preparing individuals for the true workforce. They are, they're creating a group of individuals who are great at memorization, great at passing tests, but not great at being prepared for Hey, howdy. And not in every not in. Let me preface this by saying not in, not for every program, but there are programs out there that they're like, Okay, make sure that you can pass this test, all you have to do is go and read this book, memorize this book, and come and pass the test. But that does not prepare them for being in the workforce where you can't read a book, and know how to do your job. It's you have to be able to think for yourself and problem solve. And I'm not sure that the education program is teaching those those skills. I mean,
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  38:03
yeah, and I so it's interesting. So I come from a very privileged place, considering where I came from. Because the one thing I will say, and I mean, I again, like I love working for the University of Cincinnati, like I still stay connected with so many folks there. I, we got, we're really lucky. There we are. And I was really lucky there because one of the big big cells of students coming to University of Cincinnati is the Cooperative Education Program. I was in I was within the College of Engineering. Before I left and students like I will tell you, they got like that real world, like you had to Co Op, like every other semester with I can't remember exactly the rules off the top of my head. That was one of the things that got washed away. I loved but like they had to call, they had to go in and do the real work. Get that real world experience, get those internships and they weren't paid, which is great. So there are there is some there were definitely flaws in the system. And I do agree with you that there is a lot of like, especially, you know, if we're talking about like students that are trying to get into grad school or med school, like they need to get A's, right. So their biggest concern like yeah, they want to get the real world skills, but they need to get those A's too, because it's so competitive. And I think the the vision of like a holistic application review doesn't really exist yet. People are looking at the test scores, like like I said, like I have a PhD and I'm like the worst test taker ever. Terrible. So there's definitely something to be said about, like needing to get more holistic when we're evaluating our students.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:35
I have test anxiety. Now I went to I took a majority of the classes that I took was not about taking a test it was about here, you need to go and write a paper on this. It has to be at least, you know, I think it was 1515 pages long typed. And you have to like you actually had to do the work and research it That was just an a weekly, weekly, we had to turn in a paper on subtopics, you had different topics to choose from based on whatever we were doing at that time. And then on top of that, you were also had to participate in different programs throughout the week. So it was a ton of work. I also was working full time during the time that I was going for my bachelor's degree in Human Resource Management. Now, I at the end of that had learned so much. But if I would have said, if they would have said, here, you got to take a test now I would have been like, Oh, my God, oh, my God, I got tested anxiety, but the amount that I learned and having to do my own research, and then turn around and write an entire paper, minimum 15 pages long typed, was insane. I mean, now that right there, I think is way more valuable than sitting your your, your, your class down and saying, Okay, now take a test on what we just learned. Because now you have created two things they have learned the skill of researching on their own to, they're going to retain a heck of a lot more of that information. Because they've had to find the information on their own. And it's usually
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  41:12
It's what they care about to write, and they're finding something they care and that's 100 or so I teach to I teach psychology and like, so I teach like, the aspect of like, how we like remember things and how we what encoding is like and how, like doing these real world things are the things that are going to help you remember them and that like just what you're describing is exactly how I teach my classes like I give like occasional like quizzes on some reading material. But I don't give tests like it's always papers. And it's always about what do you want to learn about? What do you want to take out of this class, you have to research it. And you have to give me like, it still needs to be robust, but and like my students love it. They really I think they do they seem like they do. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  41:51
Even when I was at WCTC going for computer programming, I remember I had to write I mean, this was a monster paper. For my final it was my final exam, I had to write a paper and I had to write, I had to, like multiple things to choose from. And my choice was the, the history and progression of the original computer. So where it originated from up until the point and this was in 1990. No, this was in 2000. So it was basically the beginning of where the original when the original computer was created all the way through where we were at that time. And this, this was a massive paper. So I mean, it was so much research going from, you know, the very first computer and it was so exciting to me, because I was really interested in it. And so it was so easy to write. And that for you know, for people to be able to choose their topic, obviously within the realms of what you're learning, but then to do the research, and it teaches individuals to And nowadays, you know, easy it is to do research. Hey, Alexa, hey, Google, Hey, Siri, hey, tell me about this. Either way, they're still doing research. They're still asked, they still have to ask the right questions. We've gone off on a tangent, which, you know, I'm like, so I'm big on that. I always go off on a sort of, it's like, no worries, no worries. But I mean, it's just, yeah, higher education always gets me it gets me going. Because I believe that it's important. But I also believe that there are there are gaps that need to be addressed. So well. So we are we are coming to time. This season. I am asking everybody, you know, a question of the season. That's my thing. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  43:57
Mm hmm. And I know like you send me this question, and I still have like so many different ways I could go with it. But I think what I would do is I would actually go back just because I have so many years of education under my belt. I would go to like my little like first year undergrad, little Sheva, who was pre med and was trying to double major in biology and psychology and like neuro psych or, like, do all this stuff. I would tell her to just honestly trust the process like I my life and my career has gone in so many zigzags. And at every turn, I'm like, Okay, this is going to be the next thing that I'm doing forever. This is going to be the next thing I'm doing forever. And I never just trusted that I would find my way naturally as opposed to trying to force things right. I was trying to force everything and force like myself into a box. So I would say just be open to opportunity. Embrace it, and not worry about necessarily every second where you're going to be 10 years from now, right? Just take it as a learning opportunity. And yeah, just just embrace the different things that will come your way. Because if I didn't, if I, I feel like I was always thinking, like, so many years in advance, as opposed to now thinking, Where am I at now? And how can I become an a well rounded person and who I am now as opposed to constantly worrying about what's next? So and then I would also say get on anxiety medication sooner. Get on that Zoloft. It'll help you go home go to therapy.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:48
I think we all would, I think we all would say that to our younger, hey, stop stressing get on that zone.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  45:55
Like, yeah, get on that Zoloft. Like calm down. It'll work out, you'll figure it out. Like never in a million years, would I have thought that I would be in consulting right now, right. But my 18 year old self was like, I need to know what I'm doing and like, in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and it's gonna stay like this. And it's going to be done. Like with like, the 10 year plan and all that. You just have to let go sometimes?
 
Leighann Lovely  46:17
Well, and, and I think that at a young age, you know, even when we're in high school, like when we're we're what freshmen and then sophomore, and they're like, Okay, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? Are you getting the good grades so that you can, you know, start filling out college applications, and we aren't so early, I know. And that's why so many students are like, Oh, my God, oh, my God. And how many people actually, you know, other than overachievers like you who get your PhD, how many people go to college, get an education, and then actually land in the field that they got the education in, unless you are very intentional. And again, you know, a lot of people end up just going for a general education, because they're like, I'm 18 years old, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And then they're, and then they're, you know, 30 years old, and they're like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And then they're 35. And they're like, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I love what I'm doing right now, is this what I want to be when I grow up? You know, I mean, there's a lot of you don't have to know, you don't. But hey, if you can, if you can enjoy life and enjoy your job and continue to go with the flow, great. If you want to be extremely intentional and and follow a very specific path. That's also great. So to anybody who's listening, you, you don't have to choose immediately. You can be intentional about not choosing, you can be intentional about choosing. There's multiple ways that you can I started going to school for accounting, then I switched to computer programming. Then I switched to my bachelor's in, you know, in human resource management, so
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  48:11
yep. It's all crapshoot like it. Like really? Then yeah, and I'm not in the field that I ever thought I was going to be in. And is it exactly what I studied for? No, but does it relate to a lot of the skills that I picked up along the way? 100% Yes, so. And this year, my goal honestly, like now that I've like started a new career, my goal is to learn as much as I can, and my new career path and my second goals, because I'm coming up on 30 in September, and my goal is to learn how to ride a bike. That's my goal of the year because I never learned so that's my goal the year you've ever learned to ride a bike. My parents never I blame my parents. So we never learned and that's what that's what I'm going to do this year. That's my like, big goal, the year we'll learn how to ride a bike.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:55
Make sure that you take videos of your progress.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  48:59
It'll be on LinkedIn, you know, oh, no quote or something,
 
Leighann Lovely  49:04
right? You're never too old to learn something. Never.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  49:09
Never. Never.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:10
That's awesome. Hey, I want to I know how to ride a bike. But every time I get on it, I'm like, why am I doing this?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  49:19
Yeah, we're actually trying to learn this summer because we're going to the beach and all my kids, other than my youngest, but everyone else had to ride a bike and we're going to be like biking around so I need to learn so I told my husband I said I'll learn how to ride a bike if you get me a pink bike with a basket and he did so now I have to learn how to ride.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:37
Oh, that's so cute.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  49:40
So that's where I'm at.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:41
My daughter is now to an age where she she is requested. She's only four and she's like can I get a bike with training wheels and I'm we're like, seriously like you're ready for that already. She knows she's got the she's got the
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  49:55
one. Yeah, a little. Yeah, we Ellerbe Yeah. What a big wheeler.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:59
And she's She rides out round on a on a scooter thing but Jr she's got way too many toys like Yeah, I did not have like I have like two toys in my garage I had a big wheel bike thing. Then I had a bike eventually. I never I have she's the motorized car she's got the scooter she's got the bike she's got like, she's got like half section she's got almost like a a car space full of toys. This it's ridiculous.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  50:30
saying like, if at all.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:33
Like I would have I would have killed to have one of those little motorized cars where you sit down, you push the pedal and you drive around. I mean, she's only gone like, half a mile. Like, yeah, and it has a remote so that if she like goes the wrong direction I can like she gets really mad when I stopped driving my car
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  50:53
at it though. Oh, yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:56
It's bright pink.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  50:57
Oh, yeah. Funny.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:02
Okay, well, hey Sheva this has been an amazing conversation. Oh, I've enjoyed it. You truly are an amazing human being not only the professional side of you know, the work that you're doing. But you know, on the adopting children, having three children in one year basically
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  51:21
sounds unreal. But no, I appreciate your kindness. And and thank you so much for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:27
This has been awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to continue a conversation with you. How would they go about doing that?
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  51:33
Yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn for sure. I'm listed under Batsheva Guy or Batsheva would work or Guy PhD something you'll find me I'm on there. You'll figure it out. So yeah, LinkedIn
 
Leighann Lovely  51:47
Excellent. Thank you so much.
 
Dr. Batsheva Guy  51:50
Awesome. Catch you later. Thanks so much.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:53
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/batsheva-guy/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, sheva, higher education, tattoos, authentic, feel, participatory, daughter, kids, cincinnati, organization, year, foster care, classes, business, research, work, day, mentioned, wearing
 

Episode 5 - Ben Zang - Changing Careers

Ben Zang is not only a brilliant businessman, he ran a successful restaurant. He is one that has had the pleasure of having a second career that offered him time to also raise a family. Ben is a wonderful study of people and business owners alike, taking a human approach to Health care benefits. This is one amazing conversation you should not miss.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:21
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann. Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:08
Today, I get to talk with an amazing person, I've had the opportunity to talk with him offline. And now I'm getting the opportunity to talk with him on my podcast today. So I'm greatly honored to have this opportunity, Ben Zeng, after owning a business for almost two decades, Ben and moved on to family life, and life of consulting, he has helped businesses in a variety of fields from operations technologies to employee benefits. It is his diverse background and network of experts that lends value and perspective to his clients. His philosophy on business is that it's very much like raising children. They grow and change over time, so that what fits today may not fit tomorrow, there will be a season for celebration and a season for tough conversations. But always, there should be trust and honesty between him it is with this reverence and responsibility that Ben builds his practice, the foundation of his work and employee benefits centers around three tenants. Transparency, strategy, and trust. Welcome, Ben, I am very excited to have you on today and talk with me. So thank you for joining me.
 
Ben Zang  02:30
I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:33
So Ben, why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
Ben Zang  02:37
Sure. So I am a dad, first three kids, twin, four year olds, and an eight year old. And I am a benefits broker with transition health benefits. So that's what I do. And then of course, loving husband all that good stuff, at least on a good day.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:01
So what does that mean for a bad day?
 
Ben Zang  03:07
It means I have to try harder. That's what it usually means.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:12
Right? No, I, I completely understand that I have a crazy four year old as my audience knows, you know that we've talked about it? Well, excellent. So you are with transition health benefits. You're a senior small group specialist there. So tell me tell me a little bit about you know, what that means?
 
Ben Zang  03:32
Sure, so I go into small and or medium sized employers and help them figure out their benefit package. You know, I really look at it as the benefits are a way that a company can show they want to take care of their people. So in my job is to kind of how to make that work within the tight margins of a small business. So there's a variety of different creative ways we use to kind of get that accomplished. Along with being that kind of trusted advisor usually when I walk in benefits and employee culture and, and HR kind of touch everything within the company. So if they're on a growth trajectory that makes a difference in their benefit program if they're trying to cut costs, because this is one of those tight cashflow instances within a business that affects the business the benefits. So I try and have a more holistic approach when we look at something like that because your culture and how you how you take care of your people will directly impact how your people take care of your business. So those are the conversations I have and maneuver through.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:55
You know that's interesting. I I Recently I was in a situation with somebody that loved the company that they were working at. Absolutely loved it. ButI had no choice but to leave that company, because of the health care benefits. They, they knew that they were going into a situation in which they, they needed a higher level of care, and the benefits that they were currently getting at that company, we're not going to be able to cover some of the treatments, and they were offered a job that had extremely rich benefits. And they were basically looking at it going, this other benefit plan is going to cover 100% of my treatment plan, or treatments. And so more that you're able to offer your people and show that you care definitely can be a direct impact on how that company can retain individuals.
 
Ben Zang  06:09
That's the bit. It's one of the most interesting things about the situation we're in where everybody talks about the great resignation, right? is I actually believe, and I believe this with all of my being because I've seen it, bear out in my own life, that COVID kind of shook everybody up. And so people got a chance to be at home and to reprioritize what they're looking for in an employer. And so I think what you end up seeing is, as people are trying to do work that's more meaningful to themselves. The challenge is always how do I do meaningful work, and not leave my family out in the cold? And I think that's where benefits play a direct correlation on like, the example you gave, if, if they can't take care of themselves, or the the people whom they're in charge of my twins, or my oldest daughter or my wife? How can I work that job? Right. So that's really the conversations we start having. And and I think the hard part, too is, is the healthcare system doesn't make it easy. Right? So anybody who's ever pulled out an explanation of benefits, the first reaction through the first read through is or if they get two pages in, they're like, I have no idea what I'm reading. Right? So how do you interact with the healthcare system? I talked to a business owner didn't know what a deductible was, or max out of pocket, how do you? How do you start to educate people in that part, because insurance companies and the medical, not the medical field, but healthcare as a business makes it their job to not be so transparent.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:14
Absolutely. And now with the, because of the onset of the pandemic, you have people who were cooped up in their homes, one obviously eating assistance because of health, because of it's a pandemic, where everybody's, you know, being exposed to this horrible thing that's wiping the nation wiping the world. But now, on the flip side of that, we now have people who are experiencing mental health issues, because they've been cooped up. And to your point, the healthcare system does not make it easy to understand your what you have available, you know, to get coverage and what is covered. You may have and the only reason I know this is because I I've experienced trying to understand my benefits trying to you may have mental health coverage, but that might only be for 10 visits a year. Well, what if you're, you, you are experiencing a massive, you know, social anxiety 10 visits a year is not going to help you get over the hump in the immediate. So yeah, to your point, having more resources or, and again, obviously, one conversation is not going to fix the problem that we have with our healthcare system.
 
Ben Zang  09:46
But a lot of giving up and I'm just gonna say you bring up a really interesting point and the fact that, you know, those 10 visits may be explained, but what they don't say also is, is You can actually do that telephonically too. And a lot of times you get unlimited in the telephonically. And so one of the things COVID did do was it forced us into, hey, zoom, you can do this over video chat, you can do this over. So there are a myriad of solutions out there. But how do you have somebody whose job is like, how do you how does a restaurant worker whose job is to take care of the people in their section or to cook the food? When do they have time to go out and become a health care specialist to understand how to get there?
 
Leighann Lovely  10:38
Right? Absolutely. You have to and again, to your point, you read the first page, and you go, Wes, what does any of that mean? I don't, and calling them and trust me. And in this. Again, I'm kind of bashing. And I don't mean to but calling and saying can you explain this to me? And I've experienced this where they're like, Well, yeah, it's Baba, blah, blah. And you're like, Yeah, I read that, too. I'm calling you because they don't get it. What does it mean? Well, I don't understand. I can read it just as clearly as you can read it. But I don't I don't understand it. And they're like, well, well, it's this, this and this. And you're like, Okay, yep. I got the bullets on that too.
 
Ben Zang  11:27
What does that mean? Exactly? What does
 
Leighann Lovely  11:29
that mean? And then you get a bill and you're like, wait a second, I thought this was covered? Oh, no, not until you've met your deductible? Well, when do I meet my deductible? I feel like I should have met it. I've gone to the doctor a bunch of Oh, no, those were covered service. Well, that doesn't go towards me. And it's like, okay, wait a second. Like, I need a spreadsheet, a couple of spreadsheets to just track all of this stuff. Nobody's got the time to do that. So it is it is yeah, it's absolutely a crazy world. And to have somebody who takes that, and tries to help at least, you know, the owners, the people making those decisions, educate them on that, and then to hopefully have somebody who's educated enough at a company to explain to those employees what any and all of that mean. Because it's it is I mean, and I will tell you that there has been times in my life where I couldn't afford my medications, and trying to navigate getting assistance to the Government, you have to be extremely diligent. And you have to educate yourself on how to it's, you almost have to take a class on how to do that in order to get the assistance, just for your basic medications.
 
Ben Zang  12:50
Right, your tenacity and trying to figure out that conundrum, so to speak, goes a long way. I mean, there's such a thing as grant writer, well, that's kind of what those subsidies are like, is you have to write your own grant to get help with that. And that's a shame, too, because there's a variety of different reasons why that's all created. And there's a ton of what's called pharmacy rebates and trying to either that doesn't go back to the employer, which is really where it should go. Because they're subsidizing plans, it ends up just going into somebody else's pocket. So it never really kind of reaches that consumer. So there's a ton of things and, and don't get me wrong, there are a ton of people in my industry doing a lot of great work to navigate that stuff. And then there are also doctors themselves who are stepping out of the brokenness of some of the systems and doing some wonderful things like direct primary care, which kind of harkens back to the days where your family went to see one doctor, and and that doctor saw multiple generations of that family, and he handled probably 80 to 90% of what your medical needs were, God willing, and in, in those days, and so people are starting to try and return to that to kind of cut out all the insulated layers within the ability to consume healthcare.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:39
You know, and it's interesting that you say that because I remember as a child growing up in a small it was considered a small town at that time. It's not so small. Now it's, you know, like any small town that's close to a big city. It's, it's booming, it's growing. I went to the same pediatric doctor and I remember For what at what point he said to me, you can't come to me anymore? And I'm like, What do you mean? He goes, Well, you're 18 you need to go and find, you know, a new primary care doctor. You're firing me. He's like, Well, you don't fall under pediatrics anymore. Oh, yeah, we got a big girl. ever want to go to anybody else? Like, you've been seeing me since I was born? What do you mean? And I, because I wouldn't, you know, I went to the military at 17. He was my doctor, I came back, I'm 18 years old, and I'm like making an appointment. And they're all looking at me funny. I'm like, what? Like, okay, this is pediatrics. Like, I don't want to go anywhere else. You know, but up until that point, that was the only doctor I had ever seen. And then all of a sudden, you go and you start seeing somebody else. And then you move, I moved out of that town into, you know, into a bigger city and, and then it was like, I got a new doctor, that doctor retired, I had to find a new doc. And when I was younger, it took you know, if I called the doctor's office, they could sometimes see me same day. Nowadays, if you need to be same scenes, same day, they're like, you probably should go to urgent care. I'm like, what do you what do you mean, you can't see your My doctor like, how, in fact, I don't even see a doctor, I see my doctor's nurse practitioner. But my primary care doctor is listed as somebody else. I've never even met her. And I'm like, okay, that's weird. But I guess that's common, it's changed so much. Because I'm, you know, again, I'm 41 years old. So it's, I mean, the healthcare system is just, it's so different from when I was a child compared to the way that it is now. And now if you know, I call and say, Hey, I have, you know, this problem, they're like, oh, you should see a specialist.
 
Ben Zang  17:06
And there's, I mean, there's some great books out American sickness will both infuriate you, and educate you and a lot of kind of how things have evolved, you know, it's kind of like a big snowball. You just keep adding pieces in. And then the next thing, you know, you're like, Yeah, that was supposed to be the head. And I don't know if I can get it. Now. It's the bottom of a new body of a snowman, right? So there's a lot of that kind of stuff within the healthcare system today. And so, and that makes it tough, right? If you're a small business owner, if you own a restaurant, or, you know, your your job is to cut hair, or to manage a salon full of stylists, who, who gave you a healthcare administrative degree along the way, right, there's nobody out there, right. So you know, and there's the individual marketplace too. And that those are, that's become an amazing resource for some of those solopreneurs. And you can go on healthcare.gov. And you can sign up yourself and do that. But I think one of the things that people don't know is that there are people like me out there that they can use free of charge. So, so you don't have to try and navigate a health plan. Because a lot of times you'll do it based on price. Well, maybe you're spending, you know, anywhere from two to $1,000 a month on something that's not going to work for you. Either is over insuring you or under insuring. So yeah, education is always that kind of sticking point. And how do you get it? How do you get it?
 
Leighann Lovely  18:50
Right? So you have an interesting background, so I'm gonna kind of shift here, you actually, you come from the restaurant industry. And so it's, I'm not gonna say that, you know, how do you end up in healthcare? I mean, usually people are like, Hey, wanna talk about healthcare? No, no, I don't, I'm gonna run later.
 
Ben Zang  19:13
I mean, not a sexy profession by any means, right? But it's, but
 
Leighann Lovely  19:17
it's unnecessary. And definitely something that we, it's a conversation we need to continue to have. But what I want to focus on now is, you know, you, you come from the restaurant industry, and so, talk to me about that.
 
Ben Zang  19:30
So, I have had a very gypsy lifestyle to a certain point, right? And so I owned a restaurant before I'd ever worked in one. Do not recommend it for anybody who, who wants to go this path. So as a lot of like 99% perspiration 1% inspiration. But it teaches you quite a bit and I always say if you want To find a hard worker, hire a manager in a restaurant, because they've they've eaten enough garbage, so to speak from both ends of the stick either the owner and the customer to be able to handle a very high stress point. I left my restaurant when my wife and I got together. And I remember having a conversation that we had a great staff coming in, and that I would be down to 65 hours a week. And my wife literally said, you know, the normal work week is 14. And my comment out to her was, what do people do with the other four days, I don't, I don't know what that means. And so that kind of stuff can so it. I was older when I met my wife, and we wanted to have kids and I knew it was going to be kind of a choice between doing the restaurant or being with my wife and seeing my kids. And so I made the move before any of the kids had come along. But I made the move so that when they did come along, I could be there for them. And, you know, restaurants are interesting.
 
Ben Zang  21:23
And sometimes I feel like they're they're not given their due as far as what they are. Because really, it's every side of business. In a restaurant, there's research and development, there's production, there's the accounting, there is cashflow management, all of that is within a restaurant. And so the thing that I took from it is the kind of small business mindset. And I did some consulting as I moved kind of down this line. And the two themes that have always kind of played true in my life is those people that were resources for me, I appreciated highly. And the other thing I didn't like was a bully in a room. So there was a bully in the room. It was I didn't like bullies, so I didn't take it well. And so how I ended up here is, is when you look at small businesses, probably their top expenses, their employee, but their second explained expense is the employee benefit package, how they take care of it. And so the lack of transparency, how does a business owner take the second largest expense and not have a transparent? How do you eat an 8% year over year increase in it. And so I felt like I could make a difference here in this part of it. And so my, when I left the restaurant industry, I had my sister works at a large firm Gallagher, Arthur Gallagher out in St. Louis. And she said, I think you'd really liked the work we do and how, how much impact it can have. And so as I started to make my transition, it was always selling into businesses, or really being that resource for them. How can I help them? You know? So if I sold cameras into business, like a big brother kind of maintenance security, which is what I did for a little bit? It was really how do you use this to help strengthen your KPIs? How do you use this as a culture tour tour? And, and not a stick? How can you carry it or incentivize good behavior. So it taught me a lot of things on how to kind of shape your culture and behaviors and habits within the business. And so when I deal with the owner of a restaurant, or I deal with a small business owner, the conversations we have, I think, are far more helpful in the fact that, you know, I want to explain what the structure is, where the problems are, and then how do we attack it? How do we, how do we create solutions for it? And that solution is employee benefits, great if it's if it's a twist of giving them other HR resources that help kind of shape that culture before employee benefits come in. Because if your culture is awful, and you give out great benefits, that doesn't, it doesn't matter. It really has to the behavior of your company and community within your company. Have to be such that it's a stable environment.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:51
So absolutely. And you come from ownership, you know, you you own the companies So being able to come in as somebody who's been there done that creating that culture and walk in and have a very open, honest conversation with another business owner, you know, from the standpoint of, hey, I understand it's hard, I understand that this is a huge expense. But let's take a look, let's figure out what's, you know what the next step is for you. And really being the the consultant versus the salesperson is huge to anybody, when you take that approach versus the, hey, here's my products, what are you going to buy from me, instead of, you know, or, you know, coming in as the, alright, let's, let's talk about your your company as a whole. And you said that you take the holistic approach of, let's open up, you know, just have an open conversation about everything and figure out where, you know, where I can possibly assist you. And that's definitely beneficial. It's the building the relationship, it's the, you know, the human side of, of what I, the reason that people like you and I exist is to, is to have those human conversations make those human connections?
 
Ben Zang  26:17
Absolutely. I got off the phone earlier today with a company that was looking at benefits, right? So my job is to sell the benefits to broker those deals. Only this company wasn't in any shape, to do benefits. The woman who was the director of sales, it was a two main company right now. There'll be ramping up soon. But they're in the process of getting funding and all the private equity money coming in. And the owner was a disabled vet. So he had benefits through the VA and the director of sales had great benefits through her husband. So I'm like, it doesn't sound like you guys are ready yet. I'm happy to start to run those things. And I'm sure we could throw you on a plan. But why that doesn't quite make sense. And so there are things that I gave her a process to follow as they start to bring on those employers, because maybe a group plan isn't the right play for you as a business there, there's a tool that was called an Akron, a friend of mine whose insurance made a joke, and I now steal it and call it my own. But insurance people give out acronyms like Oprah gives out cars. So he, it's an acronym of individual choice, Health Reimbursement Arrangement. And basically what it says is, an employer says, you know, this is my budget, this is what I can give toward your health care, whatever that number is, and then you as an employee can work with somebody like me, and go out on the individual marketplace and grab your own insurance. And then I'll be able to reimburse you as a business owner, X amount of dollars towards that. And maybe that's the first step before getting on a group health plan. Right? You know, there are a variety of different ways there's, you know, medical sharing programs that are not actually insurance, that kind of help take care of your people. There's the gym membership of kind of all you can eat health care for direct primary care. There's a ton of different ways out there. And all you're looking at and some of those are commissionable products for me, and some aren't. But if you're looking to try and take care of people, I live and breathe in these communities. So if those businesses succeed, our communities are better. And so you know, it if you're just looking at bottom dollar costs and how to make how to make your your mark on things. I think how you make your mark on things is humanizing what we do, you know, it's people that we're taking care of, it's not just health plans, it's communities.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:19
My dad has told me a couple of times Leighann you can't and this is not related to sales because this is not the way that I am but I am I sometimes run my mouth when I get heated about certain topics I'm very quick to be like no I'm gonna you know I'm very much like you I don't like bullies in the room. I I'm very quick to defend people I'm very quick and I'm so I do you have a tendency to you know, my dad always tells me Leon stop being a bull in a china shop. And it is the salespeople who are the bulls in a china shop who are just absolutely positive If Lee, I'm going to go in there and and make a sale no matter what that are the people who are basically just a flash in the pan that they come, they get hired. They they last maybe a year or two years and quickly are found out for not caring about the people they serve. But when you are somebody who genuinely cares about the outcome and the people that you serve, you build a community, like you were saying, of people who ultimately will refer other business, I have said to some of the people who have called me and said, Hey, I would like to have you help me and you find somebody to hire at our company. And then we talk about numbers, we talk about this. And ultimately, I'll go, you know, I actually have recommendations on how you can do this yourself in a more affordable way. And they're like, well, we'll know I want you to do this. And I'm like, no, no, you can't afford my services. Right? Let me help you do this, this way, and, and walked away from that. That is the person who's sending me referrals to other businesses who can't afford my services, or sends me a great candidate. In one day, maybe as they, as the business grows, they come back to me and they're like, Hey, we can now afford your services. And you're the only company that we thought of because of that. But that's what it's about human humans as a resource and people, you know, doing the right thing. And creating those. And yeah, that's, that's awesome. So you, it sounds like it wasn't a difficult decision for you, when you decided to leave the restaurant industry. I mean,
 
Ben Zang  31:58
Incredibly difficult. Was it credibly? Oh, yeah. It was all I've ever known. I had run that business for 20 years, it was part of my identity. It was, it was every bit a part of me as the new life I was trying to build.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:15
Come on, you got a beautiful, I've never seen your wife, I'm going to make the assumption of this gorgeous woman who's like, I want to marry you have children. All you have to do is leave everything you've ever known. Okay, now I'm seeing how what was difficult.
 
Ben Zang  32:35
And let's be clear, she did not know. She did not push this on. But there does come a point in your life where you're at a crossroads. And I remember, I had some great mentors in the restaurant business. And one of them was a gentleman named Ray, who ran the original Margaritaville. And he was divorced. And he was telling me about the time that he was managing restaurants before he had managed Margaritaville. And he'd been married. And his wife said, we should open a restaurant together. And Ray said absolutely not. And she said, why. And he says, we'll be divorced in six months. While he was wrong, it was four months. They were divorced. Because it's it's not an easy thing. And my wife worked within my restaurant for a number of years. But the there were a number of different factors in housing markets. And all of that kind of came into play. And so when I left the restaurant business, and you had wanted to make a trade or transition into sales and preferably, probably find something like what I'm doing now, and no, it was incredibly difficult, because there's the whole learning curve. Yeah, I can. I can walk into a restaurant today and know what the kitchen is what's going on in the kitchen. What's going on in the front? In probably 30 seconds and be pretty accurate as far as that's the pulse of the place.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:17
Are there any restaurants that we should have? No, I'm kidding. Don't Don't answer that. Are there restaurants that you recommend?
 
Ben Zang  34:25
There are a ton of restaurants, great restaurants around here. There are there there just are and unfortunately I don't get out as much as I as I probably should. You and I have done a restaurant we'll probably going to do sushi later. So yeah, there's some great restaurants out there and so I can plug them but you know what I would say right now is the kind of those people in the restaurant industry because right now, the restaurant industry is growing And then the fact that for a long time, it's been able to dictate terms towards employees. And as they are coming to find out as every other employer out there, it's going to be a two way street for a little bit here. And it's probably going to be a bumpy road. And so yeah, so that's what I would say, on restaurants. But making that transition was incredibly difficult.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:25
And I want to mimic that. What you said is be kind to your servers be kind to the people in the service industry, they, every single one of them went through a horrific, obviously the world went through horrific event, but the people in the service industry and those who have gone back to it, we need them, we absolutely need them. And they need to, they need to feel special about that I've, I've made a point to every time I go somewhere to make sure that I tip generously because because I enjoy being able to eat in a restaurant. And I never realized how much I would miss it until I couldn't eat in a restaurant.
 
Ben Zang  36:08
So yeah, most of them are doing at shortstop now too, right? So yep, that's interesting.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:14
And it frustrates me when I hear somebody saying, Oh, my God, the service is so bad. And I'm thinking to myself, then that's the bully in the room. That's the bully, I want to stand up, I walk over to being like, Do you Do you have any idea how the men and women are hustling? or I shouldn't say men and women anymore? I should say, Do you have any idea how the people in this restaurant are hustling, and trying to make everything you know, your experience? Awesome, despite the fact that they are probably running on a, you know, a ship that's meant for an additional five people or an additional? Like, stop complaining, like stop being a snob?
 
Ben Zang  36:51
Like, that's, I mean, it's tough. And I think it's a really good mirror of what's going on in a lot of businesses today. And there are some businesses that I talked to, and they're having the exact opposite problem. Like, they're like, Oh, my God, we're growing so fast. You know, COVID was actually really good for our business. Sorry to say, because Because chain pattern shifted, right. And so there's got to be some businesses on the better end of that pattern, some that are on the worse. So yeah, so that's, I think, when you talk, one of the reasons I was so excited about your podcast is you talk about the humanizing the experience. And I think, as I got to transition out of one career, and then into another career of, of helping small businesses, one of the things I became very aware of, in my own struggles as an entrepreneur, and helping young entrepreneurs, or even well established is, there's always the education piece that nobody gave, there was like, there's no class that says, hey, this is how a health plan works, or, Hey, this is how you buy your first home, or, Hey, this is what a checkbook is, and how do you how do you run it, you know, or, Hey, if all of your vendors are in 30 day notice, but your, your customers don't pay you for 90 days, what do you do for those 60 days like that, there's just a ton of that kind of education that life has to kind of teach you and, and so, for me, I am always real appreciative of the days that I get to actually help people and, and make a difference in what they're doing.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:45
Right. And you, you are very much an advocate of, you know, employees, and, you know, creating and fostering healthy work environments, just through your, your past experience of being a business owner, and now, you know, trying to, you know, offer as much assistance in, in training for, you know, the benefits that you offer, and that's awesome. I actually, you were recently on a another podcast, where you talked about,
 
Ben Zang  39:20
oh, sure. Defining leaders. So I think one of the conversations I was in was, you know, we're hiring. We're bringing people up in our organizations that haven't necessarily had any management training. And, and what they, what they have is the ability to show up, right? And availability is sometimes the biggest ability that you can have in a business, but it doesn't mean you've necessarily been prepared for the role you've been thrust into. And so, I think called culturally and From a leader and owner perspective, you have to really bring those people up. And then you have to help them find a way to find the training, they need to be able to do the job as they do. And one of the things that I have very much enjoyed, and have a, it's been a gift in my life as the network of people that I deal with on a daily basis. You know, I'm always around financial advisors, I'm around CPAs, I'm around HR professionals, and they all make me smarter. And so there's that saying, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Let's just say I'm never in the wrong room. So
 
Leighann Lovely  40:45
I love that saying, I love that thing. And absolutely. Well, not that you're not that you're in the wrong room. I'm just saying that that's the greatest thing. Because yeah, you always want to try to level yourself up, right? Learning from other people.
 
Ben Zang  41:00
Well, and that ability to when you bring somebody new up to the organization, they're, they're passionate, and they care about the very organization you're trying to build. But they may not they may not have been able to talk to an employee, they may not know what a deductible is, and suddenly, they're, they're in charge of a health plan. So it's, it's an interesting conversation when I get to work with those people, because then it's not just about the health plan. It's about, Hey, how can I help you in your organization? What resources can I get to you, I worked with a business that was looking to hire an executive to manage kind of as an operations manager. And the owner herself hadn't defined the role well enough that she was going to get out and get a bigger talent than was needed for the role she actually wanted to do. And so it wasn't that she needed that role filled, she needed to be able to find the roles she needed, filled in her company. And I was able to give her to a good friend of mine who helped her walk through job descriptions, how do you create these kinds of things? Because sometimes it's the basics that help you build a company that grows quickly. And a lot of times companies that are kind of hit with that growth cycle, where they have grown so fast, that instead of having a system underneath them, they have Betty or they have Judy, and one of the things you'll hear me say often is probably that he is not a system. Put your systems in the bus or lottery test, depending on which cup half full or half empty, you know that he's hit by a bus? What happens to your system, right Betty wins the lottery and decides she's going to be on a beach. What happens to your system,
 
Leighann Lovely  43:03
right? Yep. I was recently talking. I was recently talking with somebody who. And actually, she she was on my podcast, she came on and she was talking to me about Ron, she was asked to come in and help her dad run his business. And she said when she came in, everything was being run on, you know, a Rolodex and on a whiteboard. And she goes, what, what happens when the whiteboard gets wiped off or cleaned off? And I was like, Oh, my God, she goes, Yep, there we go all the records. How would somebody be running a business like that? But you're right. And, and to your point of, you know, what happens if Betty gets hit by a bus. And for some reason, I always go with the karma bus. But I am a half, I am a girl, either, it's got my glass half full. And if it's not at least half full, I'm refilling it. It's really bad when it's got alcohol in it, because by that time, I'm falling over anyways. I am a definitely a process person. And there are a lot of industries out there that struggle with that, because for so long it was hold your processes close to the chest, or they're going to fire you if you if you give them what your processes are, because then now you're gonna you're no longer gonna be as valuable. And that was very much the way that a lot of manufacturing, those are they're still old school in that sense, where some of the the baby boomers, they don't want anybody to know what their processes are. It's not so much in the office settings anymore, but that's still the way it is on the manufacturing floor with some of these guys who are running these CNC machines and some of the is no legacy machines. I think we're finally getting away from that being like the trend. But you're right, there are still some old school companies that are like, hey, no, we can just do it the way that it's always been done. And you're like, Whoa, whoa, wait a second, it's like you have to have, and that is also also a cultural thing. And if you are not actively working on your culture at a company, if you are not actively trying to create and foster that culture, a culture will start to create itself. And that's usually created by the squeakiest loudest person in the room. And often, that is the negative people who are complaining and pissing and moaning.
 
Ben Zang  45:59
Oh, and I think part of part of what I deal with, when I come in, I look at an organization is I look at, do they want to change? Like, you look at that whiteboard instance that you gave, what you have, and you're like, how does that happen? And I can tell you exactly how that's happened is you have a very talented, creative, driven person who starts a business. Like, they want to manufacture that widget, well then, or know anything about anything else, but manufacturing that widget. And so a whiteboard is all they needed to manufacture that widget. And then the government says, oh, you should pay taxes, and oh, you should have health care. And all you should do all of these and don't forget your form, you know, 999, or whatever it is, and you need it in triplicate. And then suddenly a business owner goes, I don't know what you just said to me, like, what all I want to do is make widgets, right. And then you have to kind of see, you know, I've met a couple different people where the son and daughter are like, you know, this is the way dad does it. And this is going to be the way it is until the end of time. And then you say great, then that's, that's, that's your culture, and that's okay to, you know, we're old school, we like to do it by hand, right? Fine, then embrace your old school illness, you know, remove the barriers to those celebrations of old school,
 
Leighann Lovely  47:38
right? And that's in, that's fine. But there's gonna come a point where you're going to have a young kid that you really want to hire, and he's going to walk in and go, I can't work here. I really, I want to work on a computer, I want to do the newest and coolest technology. So they also have to understand that they're going to have some other major challenges, like, eventually, when they don't want to do some of the accounting or filing all of the the taxes and paperwork and they want to hire somebody, they're going to have to find a 60 year old to do it. Because a young 25 year old is not going to come in and say Sure I'll do it this way. They're gonna come in and go, nope, I need QuickBooks or I need the whatever system I need this system I need, blah, blah, blah, and they're gonna go, No, we don't have any of that. And they're gonna go all them, I can't do it for you. So it's fine. You want if you want that to be your culture, just know that there is a possibility that your culture and your business could very well be obsolete in the next 10 years.
 
Ben Zang  48:45
Could I think of it like this, you know, there are restaurants that have three floors. And they have three or 300 seat restaurant. And then you have places like art and downtown, who's probably got maybe 20 seats. There's a different there's a different model in each. And I think if you look at art, and I don't think that gentleman is not successful, James Beard nominated shop. But he doesn't have the 300 seats that you have. There's a great book called The Subtle Art of not giving up. And I won't finish it, but there's it, it talks about the fact that and it says it in a little different terms. So I'll use my four year old voice. There's a poop sandwich and anything you do, you know, your job is to figure out if you can eat it, so to speak, money problems that whether you have it or you don't have it, it's you still got problems. And so any businesses like that So, you know, there's a saying of Be who you can afford to be. And if you're a legacy company, and you have a very niche product, and it doesn't matter, you're the only one they're going to pick it up from, you know, health care, Big. Big carrier insurance is not known for their customer and service. But you can't go anywhere without them. So it's that Be who you can afford to be. So, you know, I feel like I can afford to be, I have to be good. I have to be a good human. That's what I can afford to be. I'm rich enough to be a jerk to everybody. So nor do I live on my own private island. So, you know, I think being a good human is it's where we start. And where we end up.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:56
Right? No, and that, that absolutely makes sense. If you're going to be the little guy and you're starting out, you're going to have to be the the good. You're going to have to be good customer service, you're going to have to be absolutely if you're the Amazon of the world's Well, I don't remember a time when I I don't remember a week that I didn't order something from Amazon. It's just I mean, plain and simple.
 
Ben Zang  51:32
However, can that be lost? Can they lose? Absolutely. Absolutely. Things change. Don't think blockbuster ever thought they were going to lose.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:44
You're right. You're absolutely right. Blockbuster at the time was the only place to go to get your movies. That was the only place.
 
Ben Zang  51:56
I mean, and the gentleman that started Netflix started it because he had like a $70 late fee on a video.
 
Leighann Lovely  52:05
I did not know that. But yeah, I mean, the the entire story of blockbuster, they refuse to change with the times. And by the time they did, it was too late. Everybody was on Netflix, everybody. And I hung on to Blockbuster as long as I possibly could. And eventually I'm like, No, I'm gonna Netflix because they they even were bad. Even eventually became bad at that. It's okay, well, we are coming to time. And I have the question of the season. So if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Ben Zang  52:53
I would go back to when I was 20. And I would tell myself to practice adulting. Practices practice adults,
 
Leighann Lovely  53:04
I think, that's probably the best answer I've heard yet.
 
Ben Zang  53:09
Yeah. Because the things that we struggle with the big burning existence questions. You know, if you practice on adulting, you could simplify that pretty quick. Yeah. If you weren't letting the emergencies of life because you just didn't know get in the way. You could probably hug your kids more. Why flowers more? Yeah, yeah, things like that.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:41
I'd like flowers more. It's the amount of things that you don't know that you don't know. I mean, if I just sat down and started making a list of the amount of things from the time that I turned 18, and went to my pediatrician at 18. Hey, I would have been a good thing to know, before I made an appointment and then was embarrassed by my doctor saying, you're not supposed to be coming here anymore. Oh, where do we go? I mean, but if I sat down and really just was like, okay, the things that I that I didn't know that I had to learn in either an embarrassing way or that I had to call. Here's, here's a great story for you. Bree, I'll make it brief. Because this could be a long story. My My brother is very much like me, action oriented, action oriented. You know, something needs to get done. My brothers are actually more insane than me. They I don't know how they're older than me three years older than me and they have more energy than me. They're like little firecrackers. I remember my husband once told me that when he actually not too long ago. He was when I met your brothers. I thought they were insane. I'm like what they're so they're so even he'll he's like, even keel. He's like, Have you ever had a conversation with them? They stand in the middle of the room and rock. I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I grew up with them. I'm like, I just, that's just normal. Like, they never really sit down and relax. Like, they're just those types of people. They're like, hyper active. always moving people. So anyways, my brother once called my dad and said, Hey, Dad, how do we make it out? My brother? was probably,I would say he's probably 25, maybe a little older toys that my dad called and said, Hey, Dad, how do I make pork chops? And my dad was sitting in front of, I think, one of his clients or something, my dad goes, Oh, yeah, pork chops. Oh, really easy. Put them in the toaster, drop them in there and just push the toaster button down. And when it pops up, they're done. And now, somebody on the other line is listening. Somebody who's sitting with my dad is, is listening to this. And he hangs up the phone. And my brother is just like, okay, obviously, my brother didn't do this. But he got the indication that Oh, Dad's, you know, in a meeting or whatever. But my dad's claim goes, you didn't really just tell your son to cook pork chops in a toaster ditch. But it's like the simple things of like, you get out you get out into the real world and the things that you don't know how to do. It's insane.
 
Ben Zang  56:44
It is
 
Leighann Lovely  56:45
it's an obviously that's part of growing up. But, and I could go on and on with the list of shit that my brother, like, Hey, brother, get your mail out of the mailbox, because there's actually important stuff that gets mailed to you. He used to just get it out of the mailbox and throw it directly into the garbage. Never even open it and he lost a check that way from the government that he actually then had to have them re issue, which was, you know, a huge thing. Anyways, he's he's a simplify guy. Like, I don't want to have to deal with this. He was a bachelor for a really long time anyways. So yes, I think so far this season, that is probably the best answer. Because if you were to ask a kid nowadays, what is a, you know how to write a check? They would say there are some kids out there. And when I say kids, I'm talking about 20 year olds, they would go What's the check?
 
Ben Zang  57:46
Well, here's, here's the other piece of advice I would give myself to is I would start investing while I was young. Yeah. Nobody ever tells you that this money thing. Your lack of an ability to manage it, beginning or ending is going to come back. And that the the throwaway years are really x experience throw away. They're not necessarily financial throwaway years.
 
Leighann Lovely  58:18
Yeah, I wish I would have definitely done that. Yeah. Well, hey, Ben, this has been an amazing conversation. You You've definitely had some awesome experience. Well, now, Ben, this is on your second career, you know, coming from a completely different industry and you know, now moving into where you're at, and I love hearing that story. And yeah, it's just been really fun. So thank you so much for joining me today.
 
Ben Zang  58:53
I appreciate you having me out. This has been a fun.
 
Leighann Lovely  58:59
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/benzang6/
 
E-mail - ben@thbwi.com
 
Website – www.thbwi.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, business, restaurant, benefits, called, company, conversation, absolutely, culture, doctor, business owner, restaurant industry, dad, healthcare system, growing, point, run, big, employee benefits, ben

Episode 4 - David Belman - Award-Winning Business Owner

David Belman is an amazing business owner who had to find his own path despite being a second-generation business owner. David now runs an award-winning business that also allows him to give back to his community, one of David’s passions is Project Finally Home. He and his company are able to build homes for deserving veterans through the charity of others. On top of this, he is involved in many other personal projects and has created an amazing culture that people want to work in.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:18
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling; our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
Welcome to this week's episode of Let's Talk HR. I get the honor of talking with an amazing individual this week, who's not only well liked in his community he gives back to his community and is just all around an amazing person. David Bellman is a second generation builder, developer and realtor and past president of the Metropolitan Builders Association in 2016, and past president of the Wisconsin Builders Association in 2017, as well as director of the National Association of Homebuilders. David is a Wisconsin trustee for the National Association of Pac fundraiser, David hosts a podcast called home building heroes, which has been downloaded 270,000 times. David has won numerous awards, including 2017, Walkinshaw, Freeman, citizens of the year Top Choice Award for best builders in Milwaukee six times in a row, and 2020 Emerging Leaders award for Waukesha County, and 2022, Wisconsin Builder of the Year. This is an amazing individual that I'm very excited to have a conversation with. Thank you, David, so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you.
 
David Belman  02:28
Thank you so much for having me on. Leighann, I'm honored that you chose me to have have you as a guest on the podcast here. So yeah, I love to talk some HR with you.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:36
Yeah. Excellent. So David, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?
 
David Belman  02:41
Sure. So for those of you that don't know me, I am a home builder. That's how I started my career. And so I always tell the story of how I kind of got into the industry. And I literally grew up in the homebuilding industry. It was in the basement of our home. And so dinner table at night and everything, her heard the conversations about homebuilding and trades and contractors and all that kind of stuff. And so one day, I found myself nine years old, getting a little sassy with my dad. And I said, something I probably shouldn't have said, and I found myself on a job site with a broom and a shovel. And he dropped me off there and left me there. And he said, start at the top and work your way to the bottom. And I swept out the house and cleaned it. And he came back later and picked me up. And I don't think you can get away with that anymore nowadays, but No, probably not. But, you know, there was some valuable lessons learned that day, you know about the value of hard work and respect. And he gave me a check, which when you're like 1010 years old, or whatever, 910 years old, you get a check. It's pretty cool. You think you're really cool. So, but I learned I learned, you know, the value of hard work and what it took to kind of build these homes and the hard work that it takes and you know, like that track. And so I just got more and more involved and kept doing more, more work on the sites as I got older and more skilled and eventually took over the company and have do homebuilding land development real estate now.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:13
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I Yeah. Like you said, I don't think that you could do that nowadays.
 
David Belman  04:20
Yeah, the HR bells are going up right now. Like, yeah, you can't take a minor and drop. Oh, yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:26
Ding ding ding especially, especially a job site. You know, those are the Yep. But definitely a valuable lesson. Wow. Growing up in a family business is definitely different. Different dynamic. Yeah. So you transitioned to basically run the business. What, how many years ago now is that?
 
David Belman  04:53
Well, it's it was definitely a process. So my father, you know, started the business in the 70s. It was land development. Real Estate and then we get into building in the 80s. And then around 99, I, my brother and I were in the business together. And my dad was like, Well, I want to start to phase down some things. And then, you know, in talking to we had a lot of conversations with attorneys and different things like, Well, why don't you guys set up your own corporation, we'll kind of phase down the line and build up the other one. Because there's a lot of assets and things involved with real estate and land development. So that just seemed to make sense. So he could wind out some properties, we could, you know, so we worked together for about 15 years, a little bit short of that. But what happened is, after partway kind of doing this, this partnership with my brother, it wasn't wasn't really equal, as far as we had equal ownership, but not equal workload or anything. And so, you know, he moved out to a lake and wasn't coming in all the time, and was doing other things. And, you know, I was kind of running the show, so to speak, and, you know, it was fine, I was like, this is for the greater good, just keep the company going the best way we can. But you know, after about, you know, 12 or 14 years of it, it was really wearing on me, and, you know, my father was, you know, more transitioned out by that point, he was going down to Arizona in the winter and stuff. And it became hard when my brother would come in and try and upend everything I had done. And I'm like, Well, I've been here all week, and now you just showed up, you know, so it created conflict, it did get a little bit difficult for a while and challenging. And I finally got to the point where I didn't even want to go into my own business anymore. No, no. And you know, when you own your own company, and you want to call it that's not good, right? That's not where you want to be mentally. And so it was hard on my team, and I could see it. And I kind of got to the point where I said, I can't put up with this any longer, I either have to buy him out, or I'm just gonna go off on my own, I can't deal with this anymore. And that's kind of how I had to, I had to have the difficult conversation with him. And I talked to my father about this too, because obviously, this was, you know, his business and is his vision to have us work together. And in he's like, I know what's going on. And he's like, I support you, I don't want to get in the middle of it, but I support you. So I was like, Okay, so, you know, I had that difficult conversation with them. And, you know, said, This is it, we got to do this, and it was difficult for a while. But I'll tell you what, after we got through it, I bought him out. It was like this, like black cloud lifted over the company. And it was just amazing. After that the the spirit of the company, the energy, the engagement, the results, I mean, it just all like started to happen, like, you know, for somebody that was watching from the outside, they're like, What the hell like, what happened, right. But it was something that was going on for a long time, because I was trying to improve the company and raise the bar and install a vision and, and, you know, a culture in there. And he was resisting it. So it was like, once we kind of got that piece out of it. You know, everything just kind of happened, the award started coming in, and all sorts of just stuff like that. If you didn't know what was really going on, you would have just been like, what happened there? Because that's just just look like we shot out of a cannon all of a sudden.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:13
Right. Very interesting. And this is a conversation, obviously, that's happening at so many companies, which is what if I'm sure that most of you grasp that, which is the the the underlying culture that's happening within companies? And it starts from the top right, it? Oh, absolutely, yeah, it's from the top, if the top is not actively seeking and actively taking control of the culture of an organization. The culture is going to be in turmoil trying to figure out
 
David Belman  08:48
There's culture and yeah, there's culture in every company, whether it's written down or practiced or not. So it's why take that chance, because if you don't have it written down, it's probably not going to favor your company. And that kind of favor you as the owner. So you want to have kind of a rules of the game. And I always kind of, say culture, much like a sales process is kind of like playing a board game with a three year old. If you've ever played a board game with a three year old
 
Leighann Lovely  09:14
Oh, yeah, I have a four year old. Yeah.
 
David Belman  09:17
So you know, it's like, it's great, right? You kind of talk about the rules for a minute, and then you start playing the game, and they're like, Okay, and then as soon as something bad happens, right, and they have to go back to start or something. It's like, they start trying to you know, change the rules media play, the rules, are they just want to walk away and quit the game, right? So you have to be really clear on setting the rules of the game, whether it's your culture, or your sales process, or whatever it is, and when you start to build those things in. And then the cool thing with the culture on top of you know, just having now clear rules, when you have a really good culture, then the team is actually enforcing the culture. So sometimes even you as the owner aren't always following the points of culture that you wrote down to a tee you know, and they're holding you accountable which then you You know, you have a really good culture. But it also makes it more apparent when you have a culture that you're committing to when someone doesn't fit the culture. And I experienced this as well. So we really went all in on that. And, you know, that's when a lot of that good stuff started to happen. But then I brought someone else in from outside the organization when I hired them. And within a week and a half, I knew like, this isn't really going, right, this person doesn't seem to fit in. And then I was having people from the company come to me and be like this, this person isn't cutting it. And, you know, I had when I had three people come up to me separately, and I'll say that I took the person in my office the next morning, first thing in the morning, and I let them go. And I just said, this is not, it's just not a fit, I'm sorry, you know, let's it's on me, I, you know, we made no mistake here. And I apologize. And you know, and then you can't just help separate people out like that, when you have a really good culture, you can see the really good people, they'll tend to even perform better. And some of the moderate people that you have in your company, they'll either step their game up to meet meet the standards. And then if there's someone that doesn't, they kind of stick out more. And a lot of times you don't even have to fire them at that point, they basically realize that this isn't a fit for them, and that they actually will a lot of times move on. And it saves you from firing somebody to
 
Leighann Lovely  11:20
Right, Absolutely. Yeah. And this, this happened a couple years, I'm assuming a couple of years ago that you and your brother parted ways. Yep. Yeah, was about 2014. Okay. So parted ways. And I'm sure that that had to, you know, first I didn't mean to skip over that that had to have been a very emotional rough time for you. Because while you are, you know, going through all that you're also at the same point, trying to save the company culture, save, you know, and rise the company up. Yeah,
 
David Belman  11:53
I mean, there's a couple of things that, yes, it was extremely difficult. And I always say, that was probably like, the most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with in my life. And, you know, it also kind of was coming to a head because like, in the building industry, you know, the 2010, like, 2008, took, like 2012 2013 was really a terrible housing market, and is putting a lot of stress on the organization, just from a financial perspective. And then, you know, when you have somebody that's, you know, taking a lot of you no money out of the company, a good salary, and, and, you know, he always wanted to pull money out, and it's like, okay, if I let this keep going, we're not going to have a company. And so I was kind of like, at the same time, I kind of had the I have to do this, or it's, I know where it's going to head, it's got to go one of two directions. So you know, it my dad had been in the business long time, I think he was wore out with it. And this especially going through a recession, like that just didn't want to deal with it. And so it was like, I have to step up and take the reins. And so it was also like another lesson in having one voice and one direction. Because it was kind of like, we had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. So kind of came in and said, Okay, I'm the voice. I'm the one steering the ship now. And this is what we're going to do. So we are all on the same page, everyone was super excited about what we're doing. And we put a, you know, a vision together, not just the culture, but the vision of creating the ultimate building experience for the customer at a time so that we really raise the bar. And, you know, at first I was like, gosh, are we ever going to do this, and we still, you know, have to improve on that every day. But when we raise the bar like that, it just, it really differentiated us. And it really made it a focus. Instead of, you know, most of my competitors trying to be the cheapest, or the you know, I have the best quality, which is super subjective. We're like, hey, we want to have a good experience, because this is a stressful time building a house. So it was really need to kind of go off on that direction. And it really, really helped us grow and set us apart.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:59
Awesome. So let me ask you now kind of going back to this, this cultural piece, when you started down that path. So now, you're you're in a position of okay, now I'm the I'm the owner of this business I now have it's my voice. It's my it's my vision. How did you even begin to I mean, did it? You know, I'd like to say, oh, it just magically falls into place. Right. But there's obviously it's very intentional. Yep. Yeah. So how did that what did that look like?
 
David Belman  14:29
So what I did is, you know, I just didn't want to have something on a piece of paper on the wall, right? You know, I mean, everybody can write up something, a mission or something. And, you know, maybe they slap it on the wall, and then they forget about it. And that's not what what I wanted to do, and I knew that that wouldn't work. So what what he did is well, first of all, we engaged everybody in the company, as far as when we built the vision, the mission, had some general ideas and you know, we had a meeting or two to kind of refine what it was going to be. We got people's input so we have a, I have it in three steps. We have the vision, which is the overall top of the mountain, this is the where you want to get to the pinnacle. And then you have the mission statement, which is kind of how you're going to get there. And then I had the points of culture. And these are the characteristics that we want our team to exhibit in order to get there. And so the points of culture are really important, because those are the little nuggets that, you know, hey, we're innovative, hey, we, you know, honesty is a key piece. You know, there's so many, like, I have 14 of them, actually. So I don't presume to remember them off the first cop. But those are the our points of culture. So what I did is, we wrote these all out and how they relate to Bellman homes. But then what we did is every single month, we had a meeting. And as part of our company meeting, we would spend about 15 minutes on on a point of culture. So we would say, let's take, you know, innovation. And I would have some educational material, whether it was a video or a discussion, creativity is one of them. So okay, we did an activity about creativity, I remember, we actually I gave everybody a certain amount of Legos, and we had the beachhead, to build something out of this random pack of Legos to show their creativity. So we just always added elements into our meeting. So not only do we have this big thing, blazoned on the board and on our website, and on our literature, but we actually started to actively learn and, and, you know, practice what we were talking about. And we we did that for several years, where we just went really hardcore into that we've lightened it up, because I have the same people now. And it's like, okay, they get it, and they don't have to beat it in their heads anymore. But as we add new people that kind of add those elements back in,
 
Leighann Lovely  16:37
well, that's amazing. And you know, use it's a key thing, you have the same people, which means that whatever you're doing means that you are creating retention.
 
David Belman  16:46
Yeah, yeah, we don't really have a lot of turnover anymore. And you know, like, long time ago, I mean, we've always had being a smaller company, it's been pretty good as far as retention. But, you know, I love my dad, he was great builder. He was not good at the people side of the employees part of the business, he would rather be on the job site, he didn't want to manage the office or deal with Office stuff. So I always kind of naturally fell into that. And, you know, there was a lot of times where he hired people. And it was like, Man, I can't believe we had that person for that long. And we put up with this for this long. And so I've been very intentional, like, we actually have a hiring process. And we have, I have pre made Interview Questions where I get certain pieces of information out, we're very deliberate about hiring, I don't hire somebody right away. And I know, that's probably a no no, in this market with things being so tight. But I would rather like take my time. And even if I lose out on somebody, I'd rather get the right person because for me, if if the Fit isn't right, if the the group isn't good together, it's not worth it. And so I hire very slow, I do fire quickly if I have to. But I'm a big believer in that. And even in a tighter market, I've still it might hurt me, but that's how I would do it. Because I'm looking at somebody that I want to be with my company, not only today, but 10 years from now.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:08
Right? Well, and like you kind of said, One bad hire can up and the cohesiveness of our team. And so
 
David Belman  18:18
You know, the whole bad apple spoils the bunch is is very, very true. And if you have a bad culture fit, and you don't deal with it, yeah, I mean, it can rip your your company apart, and it might cost you a really good employee. And so I've seen it in other organizations where that's happened. And, you know, I've made the mistake, I've not had perfect hires. And I remember just kind of an example for you for hiring, you know, I have real estate sales, right? So for a while, I was just okay, if a realtor came in, they had a license, they wanted to come work for me, they were hard to get. So I was just like, okay, you know, bring them in and give them a try. And I got really good at finding the realtor's and then bringing them in, and then I realized, like, okay, they need a lot of training, they don't really get new construction. So I built a training program. And then what I was finding is that my competitors would just kind of see my salespeople, and they would reach out to them and they'd be like, well, you know, you come work for me, I'll, you know, I'll give you you know, 1% more, whatever I have present more. And so I get them all up and running and getting productive. And then I had it stolen. So then I was like, Okay, this this stinks. So I had to I then rebuilt my my program again. And and changed and created my own comp program where I actually guaranteed part of a salary to them. And I was like, Okay, it's still my people. No, no, you gotta pay on the salary and all of a sudden, nobody stole my people anymore,
 
Leighann Lovely  19:38
right? You shifted with the market or you shifted with, you know, the situation in order to continue to rent retain, which I've never heard a real estate agent getting a salary.
 
David Belman  19:50
Yeah, did you have like a salary plus deal that we created and it worked out really well. So it was, you know, but basically, there was always a conversation with the salesperson when you put I'm on this program like, you know, you know, you're gonna get get a stable salary, it's kind of an off basically, is how I did it, it's like, it's enough that you can, you know, pay some bills and put gas in the car and get some food and all that. But, you know, if you're expecting to live off this, it's not, you know, they had to sell something, or a couple of things to really, you know, and then as he did this, the Commission went up. And so that worked out really well. And that allowed me to then really heavily invest in these people a lot more, but then there was always a conversation of, you know, first six months in or eight months in and you're not producing, you know, we're going to have that difficult conversation. So they kind of knew, like, yeah, I gotta, you know, I gotta bring some stuff across the finish line here on occasion, and it worked out good. And the other thing that it allowed me to do, which was really amazing, is that, because it is so hard to find agents and get people involved with something where you may, you know, when the market is good, the sales come in pretty well, when the markets bad, you could not make money for a long time. Right? Right. So it kind of allowed me to bring in people that didn't have a lot of experience, but that were good people or fit the culture of the company. And then I could take a little more time with them and train them, and also build that loyalty. So I had some connections with the Tech Tech school in the area. And a lot of design students were coming in, we were talking to him about home building. And most of those design students, were not going to find full time jobs in design, because there just isn't that many of those jobs in this market. So I said, you have to learn how to do something else like sales, you can still do design and do sales with this type of job. And so I was able to recruit some younger people and teach them. And that's worked out really, really well. Awesome. Awesome. So so when you run into a roadblock, I guess the moral of the story is like, there's there's always a different path or a different way, and you got to stop digging. You know, all I have to do is put an ad in the paper and then you know, interview somebody and hire them. It's like, there's definitely other ways to go.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:55
Right. Right. Great. So I want to shift a little bit, you know, so you, in your intro, we, you know, I talked a little bit about, you know, some of the amazing awards that you have won, and you had mentioned that, you know, as you took over the company, that's when you really, you know, you just kind of shot exploded? Yeah, you exploded. So let's talk, you know a little bit about that. I mean, what you've, you've won multiple awards, including the what the Walkinshaw Freeman, citizens of the year, the Top Choice Award for the best builders in Milwaukee six times in a row.
 
David Belman  22:38
Wow, we yeah, we were, yeah, we've been very fortunate, you know, part of this, you know, can you can attribute to culture of the company, because a lot of the words are company awards. But you know, as I was kind of going through that process of buying out the company, and things like that, I worked with a coach a little bit. And, you know, one of the things that really stuck with me on this was, if you want to grow the company, you gotta grow yourself, and you can only grow as much as you're willing to grow. So I started investing more in myself. And that's really where a lot of this came from, is I started, you know, you know, I went through college, I graduated college, I did pretty good grade wise and stuff like that. But, you know, when I was done with college, I'm like I've done with textbooks, I've dealt with reading and dealt with learning. And I did I kind of just shelved it for a while. And, you know, I started to kind of get back to, you know, I, I want to start learning more about this stuff. So I started reading about things like I'm not not as good of finances, as other people saw, I started reading books about finance. And I started reading books about hiring and culture and just other business books. And I developed that kind of hunger to learn and grow. And as I was doing that, you know, it was also seeing the company grow. And, you know, I made a point to every day spend 15 minutes learning and reading something, and investing in myself. So I think that was a big part of it as well. And then the other thing was the mindset shift. And I wrote a book about leadership. And so that's in my book about mindset is really key. So, you know, being grateful for everything that happens to you. And that day, even if it's not been a great day, there's always something to be grateful for. And then taking the time to focus on where do you want to go? What's your vision for yourself? And who do you want to be what's, you know, where do you want to get to? And so I started to develop this Yes, mindset. And I started getting more involved in a lot of different things. So I, I volunteered, I got chosen to be the president of the local Builders Association. And then I got the asked to be the state president, and I'm serving on the national committee now. And so I you know, those are things that I've done because one of my thoughts for myself was I want to be a leader in the housing industry. So if I want to be a leader in the housing industry, how do I do that? I have to have to be a leader, right. I have to choose to lead. And so yeah, I think that's a lot of that. then, you know, just kind of all comes together, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  25:02
Absolutely. And it was something you said that in order for you to grow your business, you have to grow yourself. And that's, in the people that I talked with that is a common thread that you have to be willing to continue to educate yourself and in emotional intelligence, really a great deal. But also in, in areas of study, you know, make yourself if you're weak in one area, you know, try to expand your knowledge. And if you need to hire somebody to, you know, be the expert in that area, you know, sure.
 
David Belman  25:32
Like, for example, I got C's in accounting in college, I know, I don't really like the subject, it's not that interesting to me. And I'm like, I know, I can hire somebody to go do that. And they'll do a lot better job than I do. So part of it is understanding where you're weak, and bringing in somebody that that has the skills that you don't have. But at the same time, I like, when I learned accounting in college, it was like, Well, this is a debit, this is a credit, I'm like, I know, I'm not going to do this work. So I'm not interested in it. But now as I'm older, I've read, you know, a lot of stuff about accounting, but I look at it from a different perspective, I want to say, what information on those balance sheets and income statements is on there that that I can use to now make more money or improve my business, or have better results. And so I it wasn't that accounting is bad, it's just that the information that I was presented wasn't the type of information that I needed, as a business owner. So sometimes it's learning, uh, you know, a better way to utilize that information, or get information that you find more valuable, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  26:37
Sometimes it's, it's learning what you don't know, in order to be dangerous with the information that you that you Yeah, yeah.
 
David Belman  26:46
And, the more knowledge you have, I mean, the more dangerous it can be right. And it just, you know, there's, there's that whole knowledge piece, and then there's the whole kind of the mindset piece, which is hard to quantify, but it's just the mindset and the Law of Attraction piece, which, which I do believe in, I don't, I don't push it hard, because a lot of people think I'm crazy, but, you know, you get what you put out and you get what you're thinking about all the time, right? What you focus on. So if you're focusing on positive outcomes you're focusing on in, you have an actual plan for yourself, or a vision of where you want to go, you're much more likely to get there, it's just like being on a boat in the middle of the ocean. You know, if you don't know where you're gonna go, you can paddle anywhere, but you may not end up anywhere. But now if you got that map, and you go, Okay, I know, I want to at least go this direction, and I got some food with me and I got an order and this and that, well, not now you might have a much better chance of succeeding. And so I think those kind of things, the education piece, and the working on yourself and having a direction, you want to have those, those are the things that can get you to where you need to go,
 
Leighann Lovely  27:50
Yep, and I'm a huge, huge believer in you, what you put out to the world will somehow come back to you, it may not be one of those immediate, it's, well, it won't be an immediate thing, but it put up positivity and positivity will eventually come back to you. And if you walk around, you know, with negativity just seeping out of you. Yeah, that's what you're gonna get back.
 
David Belman  28:12
Yeah, and huge believer in that, I've learned that and obviously going through that with with the buyout of the company. But you know, I started to surround myself with more positive people, more growth minded people. And then more opportunities came because I'm surrounding myself with more of the correct people that I need in my life. And I still yet to this day, there's, there's somebody that I get, you know, a bad vibe from, it's like, I almost have this natural instinct where I just, I will get out of that conversation almost immediately, like, yeah, it's just, there's just certain people that have a bad vibe, and you can almost get attuned to it, you can kind of pick it up. And so, but then when you have somebody that, you know, you connect with, or you have a similar thought process, you know, you tend to attract more of those type of people. So, you know, again, you want to attract more of the right people than the wrong people. So I believe the mindset thing is, is key. And we spend a lot of time on that, especially in sales, too. It's like, you want to attract the good customer, you want to attract the customer that's going to drive you nuts for for a year and probably cost you more sales, right? And we don't want to answer that is so well, and
 
Leighann Lovely  29:16
it's, it's interesting when you you said sales, so what one of the rules when I first somebody was like, okay, when you make cold calls, set a mirror in front of you, and make sure that when you're doing those, those calls, that you have a smile on your face, and you're like, that's crazy, you know, but it's 100% true, because when you're smiling Your voice sounds completely different. It is
 
David Belman  29:38
Oh, absolutely. So that's great advice. Yeah. And, you know, again, going back to the mindset piece to it, you know, it's just, you know, I've read some sales books where they, you know, they talk to this guy, and he would go into a sales meetings and they was doing well with the pitch. And then he said, I started sitting in my car for 10 minutes. I get there early, and I'd sit in the car for 10 minutes and I visualize and I predict or, you know, visualize the outcome and how this went. And then all sudden, he was, you know, closing a lot more deals. And it's, it's a lot of what's between the years and how you present yourself. And now you're right, smiling is huge. The other big thing is just understanding personalities. And I've been fascinated with that. So I spend a lot of time with disc, and I teach my sales, Team disc profiling and stuff like that. But when you can kind of match someone else's personality or their learning style, and understand what it is and present the information in a way, you're automatically miles ahead. And so that's a big part of it, as well. So it's, you know, not only how you present yourself and, and your, your state of mind, but it's also then, you know, connecting with that other person in a way that they appreciate, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  30:47
Yep. So, okay, I, we were gonna bring us back and rein us in, because, you know, I could go down this path, obviously, being a salesperson, you know, my day job, and you obviously, you know, being owner, but also salesperson, you know, we could talk about this forever. Anyways, so you, you are involved in a lot, the things that we have, we've talked about, but you've done some amazing things. One, you are involved with young guns, which I have. I have actually attended every single young gun. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's it's great. And that, you know, mindset and everything. Every time I go there, there's always great tidbits of information that I walk away with, it's always energetic. It's always just, you know, very energizing. But something that I really wanted to touch on is Operation Finally Home. Tell me about this. And, sure, where did this start? And how did you know that?
 
David Belman  31:42
You're gonna find some parallels with a lot of what I've talked about. But yeah, so operation find the home. First of all, what it is, is, it's a really awesome organization, it started down in Texas, and what they do is they find a very deserving wounded war hero, and they give him completely or her completely free of charge a free home. And what we do is, they, they basically, look for builders that want to, to help with this, and the builder tries to get as much material and labor donated as possible. And then, you know, do some events to raise money to cover the rest of the costs. And there's a lot of media, there's a lot of things we do to create awareness for this. And then operations, my home finds the really deserve a family. So most of these people are people that have wanted to serve their entire life, they've had a severe injury in, in battle, they, you know, obviously need the help. So these are people that are very selfless people they've given to the country, they're given to, you know, the rest of their lives for us. And I can't think of a better person to give a gift like this to than someone that's, you know, taking a bullet for us. So it's an easy sell sometimes to people. But when you meet the families, and and then you help them, it's just so amazing. And I, you know, kind of going back to when I was going through this stuff with the company, you know, and trying to find the right people and all that kind of stuff. I was at a trade show in Vegas of all places. And one of my vendors took me to this concert, it was a country music concert. I'm not a country music fan, to be honest with you. But I'm like I was in the mindset of I'm going to accept I'm willing to learn and grow. So I'm like, Okay, I'll go. And it was a benefit for Operation fly home. So I learned about it. The people were so positive, they're so amazing. The story I learned about a veteran that lost his legs in the war. He had six kids at home, and he didn't know what he was gonna do with the rest of his life. And then they give him this home and totally changed his life. So it was touching. And it was right at that time when I wanted to grab onto something. And I needed something positive while I was going through all this negativity. And so that's where I kind of got involved with it. And I committed to doing a home I was the first one here in Wisconsin to do it. It was such a great thing that now we've done six of them
 
Leighann Lovely  34:01
Wow, that is I cannot I get goosebumps, I cannot imagine the feeling that not that the veteran and the Veterans family have because one to to serve your country and to be injured is obviously an extremely traumatic event. And to have that, that, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do from here in order to support my family, my family, but then to be able to, you know, be given some hope of now I at least have a landing. I have a landing, you know, to be able to put my family in a good spot and a good.
 
David Belman  34:45
Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, you know, like, Okay, this is, let's say you're young and you're idealistic, and this is what I want to do for my whole life, right? And then all of a sudden, just in this snap of an instant, right? It's taken away. So that alone is traumatic. It's stressful. but then they have like a physical ailments attached to that on top of it. And it's not always physical. Sometimes it's a mental issue. You know, PTSD and traumatic brain injury are huge. And most of our families not only have the physical injury, but they have the mental injury. And so sometimes people see that people are giving a home too. And they go, Well, they look okay, well, they might look okay, they might walk around fine. But you know, they've seen things that you and I would never want to even imagine. And probably seen that daily or multiple times over their career. And so that affects them too. So there's all this stuff going on. And then, you know, the home just takes away so much of that worry for them, because now they know if something happens to them, at least, okay, we've got the home, we've got a place to live. You know, yesterday, Sony had to cover utilities and insurance and stuff like that. But that just takes so much burden away. Right? And, yeah, so we, we not only just, you know, give them this home, but we do a lot of cool things, so we can surprise them. And they don't even know they're getting the home. And a lot of times we'll we'll find them, they think they're gonna get an interview or something with me. And then also like, Oh, hey, we chose you for the home. And we surprise him, we catch that on video. So you get all this really cool, organic stuff that happens. And then we bring them out to the the groundbreaking we do a really cool ceremony, we get a big 50 foot flag hanging from a fire truck, we drive them under and the communities out there cheering for them. And I mean, it obviously creates good PR and awareness and the news media, but it also creates, you know, the excitement in the donations and everything else that keep this in, you know, moving along. And so I've been very blessed to do this. And I've learned, you know, I don't just build houses now. It's like, okay, I know how to put on events and do other things. It's kept me very busy. There's a lot to do with that I could, I could come into work at four in the morning and leave at midnight and have plenty to do every single day. Obviously can't sustain that. But yeah, there's it's always something to, and it provides a lot of energy to be able to, to do something for someone else, and you make a difference in someone's life. I can't help hundreds of people with this the way it's set up. But I can I can change someone's life forever. And that's so impactful.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:15
Well, and we, as people can't help everybody, but we can help one person. Everybody does that, you know, what an impact we can make. And the fact that you're, you know, your company, your business is able to do that. It's awesome. It's absolutely amazing. And and you're absolutely right. You know, obviously I have I have you know, bipolar disorder, I have, you know, I've struggled my life, my whole life with mental health issues. So the idea that somebody comes back with PTSD, I can't even begin to imagine even experiencing what I have experienced, what it would be like to experience PTSD from being in war be seeing what individual like the see, and then also have a physical ailment, you know, from being shot, losing your legs, I mean, those those sort of be Yeah,
 
David Belman  38:06
it's a lot to you know, and the hardest part for me, quite honestly, when I do this is that I get the final sort of sign off on the family. And so I get a stack of papers, these people are extremely vetted as far as we don't want to give a home to just anyone, we want to make sure that they're very deserving somebody that's going to do something really well with this gift afterwards. So I mean, I get a stack of papers that's an inch thick, and I'm reading I feel like I know their whole life story, right when I but you know, it's it's hard to read these sometimes, especially when they start to talk about the injury and what's happening with them and their family and their dynamic. And it you know, when I first heard about this, it really frustrated me because I was like I thought our government did a better job of taking care of these folks. And yes, they get, they get, you know, a retirement thing and things like that. But it's not enough, they can't live like this, and especially if they've got an ailment. So I was like, Man, this just it was like my sins where I'm like, it was just a wake up call that we have to do more for our veterans. And I was never a veteran my father was was in the military, but I have no military experience myself, but I felt guilty and I feel like I have to give back. And this is a great place for me to get back.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:15
Right. No, and I wish that our government could do better for a lot of these individuals and you're seeing more and more people popping up. You know, I've met quite a few people who are veteran, I served in the Army National Guard for short for your service. Thank you. I didn't do anything I broke my leg. You know, before I did anything for our country, so I don't advertise that but of course now I'm interested but anyways, that's okay. But the journey there's it is part of my journey, but there is there. I feel like we need to get better as a complete society on how To help these individuals trans transition back into society and give them more mental health, you know, assistance and give them to, you know more, it's the same thing. And I don't want to compare these two, but it's the same thing with somebody who's transitioning back into society coming out of incarceration, a lot of vegetables go right back into jail, because it's easier.
 
David Belman  40:22
Yeah, well, and you haven't fixed the core problem, right, you know, especially with with inmates, and, you know, we've done some work, because obviously, you're trying to get people in the trades, you're, you know, sometimes that's the pool that's there. And so, you know, they've actually created this cool program. It's called the homebuilders Institute, and they actually all set up a training facility and in a jail cell. And they'll, they'll teach them a practical skill, they'll teach him how to weld, or they'll teach him how to do carpentry or whatever. So at least, you know, not only they have something that they're productive at, and they're not just sitting there all day, thinking about what they did, but now they actually have a useful skill. And so now they're starting to attack the root problem. And, you know, this, you know, saying what the military is, like, you know, they have to kind of go through some, some mental things, you know, and, and, but then taking that big worry off their plate helps a lot. And I've seen these people completely changed from when I first met them, and know, you provide them the home. And then, you know, obviously, we have six families we've helped, and I know, at least folks, and we invite them back out to a lot of things that we have, and you see how they're doing. And, and in general, they're doing a lot better, you know, and they're, they're starting new careers, and they're growing their family, and they have time with their kids. And that's the whole other piece is like, when they're deployed, they miss their family, like they're not there. And they might have missed six months, a year, two years of really important time with their family.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:46
Right? Wow. Well, David, you, you obviously, I mean, your journey is definitely one of you know, amazing, it's amazing. You've you've gone from, you know, young age, being in a family business to, you know, changing the culture of your company to being involved in some very amazing things. You know, we're coming to time. So I have the question of the season that I would love to hear. So if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
David Belman  42:24
Well, as far as when, I guess, I would say probably maybe early in my high school career, because I think that's a good time when you're still trying to figure out who you are. And as far as the advice would be two things, and I kind of touched on it already. But one would be, you know, the mindset piece, and that you get what you think about most of time, and really have a vision for who and what you want to be. And then to continually learn and invest in yourself and grow. So you're not done with your textbooks, when you're in school, you don't want to continue to learn, you want to continue to grow. And if you're growing yourself, you know, you're a living organism, just like a tree, a tree doesn't stay in one spot, the tree is always either it's going to grow or it's going to die. So be be like a tree that continues to grow and branch out. Otherwise, you know, you're going to cap out pretty early. So that's what I would tell myself because, you know, I was a good student in school, but I wasn't I had no confidence like I was the shyest kid ever. I like I thought of me even doing this as a kid, I probably would have been like, No way I wouldn't do this. And now I like I'll go out and talk on stage with a couple 100 people, and I have no problem doing it. Because I've built that confidence. I've built myself by doing these things, and then challenge you know, be willing to challenge yourself to, you know, and push yourself out of your comfort zone. That's that's another funny dad a third one, that would be my third one. So I'll stop there. Because no, I go on all day.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:48
That's great. That's great advice, because there are a lot of young, young adults, young kids are the older kids, young adults that still have not grown that confidence. And to, you know, here's somebody who's as successful as you give your, your younger self that advice. Don't be afraid to ask
 
David Belman  44:11
Yeah, some of the best stuff in life is, you know, it's not easy, right? And you have to do something harder, or be willing to take that more dangerous path or difficult path to get to the really good stuff. And so I think, you know, we have to, we have to be mindful of that sometimes. And, you know, kind of leave you with this. And I remember when I agreed to do the Operation Finally Home house, I was at a thing in the Dells. And it happened to be that day that they asked me to lead the state Builders Association. So within like a couple minute period, I had to make a decision to lead this organization, which was like a five year commitment. And then they happen to also be talking about Operation fly home and I was the only builder in the room that knew about it. And I volunteered at that meeting as well then to lead the first project in Wisconsin, and then I'm driving home in the car for two and a half hours sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, what did I do to myself? But, but it was like, I made those difficult decisions. But I knew I was the right person for this. And this was what I was meant to do. And it was gonna be hard, but it was gonna be worth it. And it very much was. So I guess that's just sort of the story to tie it all together, that you get to kind of push yourself and challenge yourself. And it's way more rewarding when you do that.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:25
Right? You didn't You didn't bite off more than you could chew you you actually took the entire sandwich and just shoved it.
 
David Belman  45:34
Well, I remember driving home to when I was like, how am I going to tell my dad this, he's gonna kill me. But you know, sometimes you have to also trust in yourself that it's going to all work out. And you don't always have the answer right? This second, right? Like, I didn't know how I was going to raise all this money. I didn't know how we're gonna get this whole build. I don't even know where we were going to build it. But I knew that somehow it would work out.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:55
Right? Sometimes, you know, taking a leap of faith is is okay. Yes, yep. Right. So, if somebody wants to reach out to you wants to get involved in anything, you know, young guns or Operation Finally Home? Or how would they go about doing that? And know that it'll also be in the show notes. So you don't have to go through the entire thing. But, you know, please,
 
David Belman  46:19
Yeah, the easiest way, I mean, there's a couple of ways. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So just look up David Bellman on LinkedIn, and connect with me there, send me a message, I'm glad to start there. Otherwise, if you want to email me, it's my name. So David, at Belman homes, it's B E, L, M, A, N homes.com, you can email me there, you know, and then from there, you know, I'm usually better with emails. So that's the best way to go. And then, you know, we can certainly have a phone conversation or whatever. But now I have a lot of people that I connect with, and they help out with, you know, volunteering with Operation fly home or things like that. So, you know, we can have a conversation and you know, that kind of thing, if that's something you're interested in, or you just want to learn about the home building process, or you want some inspiration, you want to grow and learn, come to young guns, events, they're really great. And the best part about it, not just as the education with the people that you meet there, and the connections that you make over time, because there's a lot of great people there. And they're all in the same mindset. And so, you're gonna you're gonna make some, you know, great connections, just networking with people there too.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:21
Perfect. Well, David, again, thank you so much for you know, talking with me today. It's been Yeah, it's been a very great conversation and I've really enjoyed it.
 
David Belman  47:29
It's my pleasure. Leighann thank you so much and invest lucky Tia.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:34
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidbelman/
 
Website - https://belmanhomes.com/
 
E-mail - david@belmanhomes.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, home, culture, company, conversation, talk, piece, hire, day, business, mindset, david, family, grow, vision, deal, learn, builder, bellman, created