Let‘s Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation

Episode 3 - Janelle Benjamin - DEI Specialist

Janelle Benjamin is an amazing woman with an even more amazing story of how she came to run her own business. While her story is amazing it is not necessarily a fair or happy one, but one that we should all learn from. There is something to be said about the hard moments in life that set us on the paths that we are meant to be on. Janelle has defiantly found not only her path but becomes someone that this world needs more of. As a DEI expert, advocate and trained lawyer Janelle has a true understanding of people and the compassion and empathy we all need.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
If you are an HR professional business owner, or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked. practices have been question and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely
 
Leighann Lovely  01:02
Janelle Benjamin is the founder and Chief Equity Officer of All Things Equitable Inc., using her lived and professional experience to help companies affect systematic change. A trained lawyer Janelle is no stranger to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space, having investigated complaints at the Ontario Human Rights Commission advised professional regulators on fair registration practices for highly skilled newcomers led corporate DEI initiatives and implemented groundbreaking legislation programs like the Accessibility for Ontarians with disability acts 2005. I'm so excited to talk with Janelle she's an amazingly talented, brilliant, and wonderful woman, and I'm just thrilled to have her on the podcast today. Janelle, thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited about having this conversation with you.
 
Janelle Benjamin  02:04
Thank you so much for having me, Leighann. It's a pleasure to be with you on your podcast.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:08
So why don't why don't we jump right in? Tell me a little bit about yourself.
 
Janelle Benjamin  02:13
Thank you for asking. I am a Diversity Equity and Inclusion practitioner from Toronto, Canada, a management consultant. So I support organizations and their leadership to create equitable, inclusive workplaces, right. So they've got issues of diversity, how to diversify their workplace, how to create experiences of inclusion, belonging, make people feel welcome in the workplace, or just achieve equitable solutions, right? Whether that's pay equity, or gender equity, racial equity, you name it, I support them with a variety of training and consulting work.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:53
That's, that's awesome. And so needed right now. In in the world. So you are actually the founder and CEO of all things equitable management consulting firm. So how did you come to, I guess, become the founder of this organization? You know, what launched you into doing that?
 
Janelle Benjamin  03:16
Yeah, there was a few things, it was a combination of factors. I was laid off in a pandemic, you know, starting to compete for jobs with the rest of the world, found a fantastic job that I thought was great, closer to home, and $40,000, less salary. But I still took it because I thought, okay, you know, here's the job, it's closer to home higher level than the position that had just previously laid me off. I was really, really excited to begin, it was in a field that I totally love working for, you know, another issue of inclusion and a really, really important entity, eight minutes down the road from my home that I'd been previously commuting about an hour and a half for, you know, four years to another organization. So I thought, okay, eight minutes down the road, $40,000 less, but you know, work life balance, I'll be closer to home closer to my kids. And still, you know, at a director level, right, I had just been a manager before, but at least I can be doing something meaningful to support a community that I truly love and hold dear. And then the opportunity was rescinded. Just on the eve of the pandemic. It was heart wrenching. But what was more heart wrenching was that they didn't. They didn't say, Well, you know, we'll revisit your application at the point where we can reopen the the world. Instead, they blamed it on me. They said that, you know, it was because I was negotiating for myself that, you know, the opportunity was being rescinded. I was asking for too much as a woman. You know, I was being greedy to say, well, you know, your range is like $40,000 below my last salary, is it possible that I could start at the top of your range and not the very bottom. And the fact that and then range was minuscule, the fact that I had suggested that it's just over the top and too much for them, right? It shouldn't be negotiating for myself. So that started me back, you know, now looking for work with the rest of the world. And feeling just heartbroken. You can't even imagine starting to look for jobs, again, putting my application out there. And then, you know, George Floyd is murdered, still, you know, not thinking about entrepreneurship. But the very next day when Amy Cooper, the white woman who was you know, walking her dog in the park, and she decided that she was going to call the police on Christian Cooper with a black man who was just birdwatching that lit a fire under me like the combination of being unemployed in a pandemic, George Floyd job offer rescinded and then Amy Cooper, you know, questioning, his belonging in the workplace just totally triggered me. Right. It was taking me back to the you know, the places that had terminated me previously, noting you know, I don't belong there, I don't have what it takes to be in their spaces. And I just thought, okay, here we go again, right, here we go again, with another person telling a black man where he belongs. And I just I was, I was like, Okay, that's it. I'm never I don't want to work for anybody. Again, I'm going to, you know, do my own thing. I've got what it takes, no one's going to tell me where I belong, no one's going to tell me what I'm qualified to do. And I'm just going to work to make the system better, right. Like, we thought George Floyd sparked this sort of global movement, impetus to not just improve police justice, in policing, but just equity in all of our systems, our health systems, our child welfare system, our workplace education, employment systems, right. So we're working on anti black racism and addressing it everywhere. And, and I knew that the experiences that I've had were, you know, sometimes related to me, because I'm a woman, right? Sometimes related to both the intersection of my woman womanhood and my blackness, or the fact that I'm a black woman. And being told, you know, we no longer need you're here, or, you know, thanks, but you shouldn't be asking for more. All of those things were just so dreadfully painful. And I had what it takes, I don't you know, I'm a trained lawyer. I'd worked in, you know, different provincial government agencies here in Canada for a very long time. supporting organizations with their inclusion initiatives, right, I have the skills I've got the stakeholder relationships, the policy development, program development, legal training, investigation of human rights complaints under my belt, so I just thought, Well, what the heck Well, I can have other people can vote, why can't die. So that's sort of the painful journey to the launch of all things equitable.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:50
I listening to you, I get goosebumps, you know, we are we are a makeup of the experiences that we've had in our life, right. And while my experiences as one a woman, but also very much a white woman, obviously are very different. And I am very much and, and I say this, somewhat ashamed, but very much blind to the experiences of the black community, I don't have any knowledge, any understanding of what you've experienced. But again, because I am, you know, a product of my own experiences, to the same effect, nobody could understand what it's like to have a mental health disorder growing up, and being discriminated, you know, for that. But this is definitely everything that you just explained, everything that you went through, you know, on an emotional side on a logical side on, all of that is so valid, and things that we need to as a society address, have empathy for have, you know, conversations around and about, because we can only understand the things that we've experienced, but we have to understand that we now have to try to put ourselves in the shoes of others to try to look through the glass, you know, with the eyes of others, in order to be more open and more understanding that yeah, we're not doing we're not doing everything that we can do in order to create a, you know, inclusion and diversity and all things equitable society, right. Yeah,
 
Janelle Benjamin  09:37
Absolutely, empathy is such a huge part of this inclusion conversation, right. A lot of people don't have the ability to empathize with other people. It's sort of like, you know, just move along. Let's forget about it. You know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, everything will be well just work as hard as the rest of us and you're not going to have any of these issues. And the reality is that meritocracy, you know that myth is a myth, right? That, you know, society and things that are happening around us just don't impact people differently. Right? The reason that this push for equity is so significant right now is precisely because, you know, there's disparities in our society, right? And there's a power imbalance and a differential that certain groups experience based on their racial identity, right? And if you're, if you are not white, you experience it. And if you are white, you may not right, it's, it's a blind spot that you may have precisely because of, you know, your, your privileged identity, to not have to be experiencing racism, right? So it's hard sometimes for white people to understand what we're talking about when we're saying, this is racism, you know, you're that that horrible, you're playing the race card always comes out or, you know, you say black lives matter and you're fighting for your rights. And then they're, you know, they're gaslighting you and they're saying all lives matter, and you're like, Oh, God, it's so cringy. You know, we're focusing on black lives. And we're talking about the reasons why Black Lives Matter precisely because ours are under attack. Right, we saw what happened recently with the shooting in Buffalo. You know, we saw what happened with George Floyd and ahmaud, arbery, and Breanna Taylor. And, you know, I could go on to, and name so many more, I will do Dr. Lu and Mike Brown. And, you know, the names just don't stop. And for people to sort of, to say, well, let's just negate all of that, forget all of that. Forget that, you know, the police are disproportionately killing, you forget that they're disproportionately arresting, you forget that they're, you know, disproportionate, you know, that more of your men, more black men are in prison, right then are employed in the United States. And at home with their families. That is a very troubling statistic. And we're talking, you know, I'm in Canada. But I use the data coming out of the states precisely because we don't collect race based out here in Canada. Very bizarre. But bizarre, but not right. Like, it makes sense. In a system where people, people are uncomfortable. When you call things out, they rather kind of hide it under the rug, and all those problems are happening in the States. And not here, right? Because your your data looks so, so pristine, and you don't actually have any information that you're collecting. But it's important that we start to gather the information to tell us what we need to do to make those systemic improvements here. And thankfully, organizations are getting on side, you know, the ones that are working with me are really working hard to change things to do better, to be better to be, you know, supportive allies, which is exactly what we need, right? We need people with the power and privilege in our, in our society, to start to spread the wealth a little bit, right. That's what equity is all about. Achieving it for other groups means that, you know, we can't, we can't continue to operate in a system that tells us that whiteness is supreme as if it's not really having impacts on us. All right, it is. It's causing so much harm and disparity in our society in so many different ways in treatment and, and in outcomes, how people are actually faring in our society is a direct correlation to the racial identity. So yeah, it's important to talk about it.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:37
Absolutely. And here's what I don't understand. And this actually, before I go on that thought, I want to go back. Because I want to, I want to make sure that I address something that you you started off with saying, first, when you we the offer was rescinded. You said that they're gonna turn around and blamed you. I'm disgusted, and I'm absolutely 100% disgusted by that. Because of the fact that I am my day job is in staffing, I help individuals help you negotiate for what they deserve, what they are worth what they and for anybody listening out there, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going and negotiating on your behalf for what you are worth. And if a company is not willing to come to the table, you know, to negotiate with you, you don't want to work with that company, if they're going to turn around and blame you for, you know, trying to, you know, put a value on what you're able to value or what you're able to bring to them that and for them to turn around and blame you that is is asinine.
 
Janelle Benjamin  14:49
But what was more inhumane about it was the realization that the very next day after they sent me that communication rescinding the offer, blaming me, the very next day A, they closed their doors down for months, the very next day there was, you know, our entire province went on a lockdown, they must have received notice about it as a, you know, an entity that needed to shut its doors. And instead of saying so sorry, Janelle, the provinces requiring us, you know, because of course, my my start date was from March 31, which was beyond the provincial lockdown, instead of saying, you know, we presented an offer that was requiring you to start on March 31. But we're no longer gonna be open because of this provincial lockdown due to COVID-19. We'll revisit this at a point where we're able to reopen, we're so sorry, I would have not been as devastated. Right, but they were so inhumane, as you know, and the reason I was negotiating was I revealed that I had children. I said, you know, I talked to them about the benefits package and waiving the waiting period in order for the benefits to start. I said, you know, I'm currently receiving benefits from my previous employer that had laid me off, I need those benefits for my family, is there any way that we can waive that probationary period and have the benefits start? My direct supervisor that was going to be reporting to senior director, she said, Sure, we'll, I'll take a look at it, I'll take a look at the numbers, we'll see if we can get you to the top of that range, or move you up slightly, at least. So you're not at the bottom. And we'll I'll get back to you on the version of the benefits. And instead, by the time she'd gone to the men that you know, the CEO and the HR leader, who was also a man comes back down that, you know, she's you know, she's asking for too much, right? Like, I'm asking to not start at the bottom of the range of asking for benefits for my kids. And the office, we're sending it and you know, so sad too bad. You're, you're being a little bit greedy here. And instead of telling me that you're closing your doors because of the pandemic, you've blamed me, that was the most disgusting thing, I think, for me, showed you know, and I lambasted them I sent them an email. And I've never done this to any organization ever. I lambasted them I said, you know, how dare you I had round after round of interviews, about four of them met the staff walked around the building, showed me my office, I went and I went shopping, I bought clothes, I did all these grand things that you do you know toasts with your family, when it's like, finally, you got a job, because I was unemployed for almost two years. So I did all those things. And then I wrote them an email, because I was like, How dare you like you, chastise me in round after round of interview? But how inclusive? Are you? And, you know, do you have the right inclusion mindset? And I thought, well, you know, here I am telling you that I've got kids that I'm a woman, I'm negotiating, I'm I'm racialized, and you're questioning my inclusion mindset. And this is your, your, the way that you operate. Right? You're blaming me, I just I let them have it. I couldn't stand it.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:49
Right, No, and that's right, no, and I coach, you know, employees all the time. And I say, you're, you're never gonna get anything that you don't ask for. Now, there's also there's also the understanding of when negotiations are over, you know, you need to you need to know when they have ended, right? Because I've also had employees who are continuing to push and push and push and push and push, and it's like, okay, negotiations, right, it's, you know, you need to know when you when, you know, when to get up and walk away from the table at this point. But there is, you need to be your greatest advocate, nobody else is going to be that. Sure. So I am sorry, that that happened to you and that they, obviously, the position went away. But the way that they handled that was was horrible. Nobody should be treated that way. And it's no wonder that, you know, I shouldn't say it's no wonder, but I am so glad that you have now started on the path that you have started on. Because yeah, it's necessary in this world. It is 100% necessary. And we need people like you.
 
Janelle Benjamin  19:06
Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm, I thought, you know, I fought and I advocated in my professional life as a lawyer for so many different people and individuals and groups and things. It's like, why would I not advocate for myself? as well? Why would I not do this professionally? And, you know, see what I can do and affect the changes that I know that I can affect? Independently, right? Instead of waiting for a job, I'm just going to create my own and it's it's definitely worked out. There's lots and lots of clients that I know work with, and I'm quite happy doing this work independently.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:45
Yeah. Okay, so now jumping back forward, where were we? You are also a speaker and part of black speaker collection. Tell me what this is. And you elaborate on that for me. So I have an understanding of what you know what that's all about.
 
Janelle Benjamin  20:03
Sure. So through my work with all things equitable, you know, I do consulting, I do training. And oftentimes people invite me to do speaking and keynotes and things like that. And so the Black Speakers collection was a collection that began by a woman by the name of Madison Butler. I believe she's based in the United States, maybe in LA somewhere, she decided, based on lots and lots of, you know, anecdotal information that employers are sharing that, you know, they can't find speakers for predominantly Black History Month events. And not only that Black Speakers are being underpaid, undervalued. You know, we're offering keynotes, we should be being paid the same as our white counterparts. And so she formed the Black Speakers collection to sort of aggregate the number of black speakers around the globe on a variety of issues that we can all speak on. So it's sort of like a one stop shop for employers who are looking for a speaker to come and speak on a particular topic at their events, whether it's, you know, technology or finance, or, you know, anti racism and equity, like I speak on, there's a whole vast collection of people that are highlighted through through the Black Speakers collection, that are really easy to find. It's a searchable database, it allows employers to go and see the the wealth of a range of talent that are out there, and then, you know, present proposals and things to them so that they can come and speak. And it's really compelling us and pushing us as black speakers to, to know what we're worth, to charge what we're worth, and to not undervalue ourselves. So it's sort of win win, right. It's a one stop shop for the employer. But it's also a great place for us to collaborate. There's a Slack channel that we all can talk about our, you know, our engaged, it's just this great collection that allows everybody to hold themselves out as the speakers they are on the topics that are within their own domains and their expertise. And at the same time, allows employers to search and find them to to make those connections so that, you know, you're not having an organization say, Oh, I can't find any, any black speakers. Where are the black speakers? It's like, there's little, there's over, over 2000 of us already in the database within within days of it opening and launching,
 
Leighann Lovely  22:31
Oh, wow. So I will throw, if you have a link that I can throw in the show notes. So if anybody wants wants to check that out, they can definitely check the show notes. And yeah, check out the database and information on that. So perfect. That is that's awesome. And I did not know that. Again, this is the naiveness of a lot of people out there. But I did not know that there was a struggle for people to find, you know, black speakers. But I guess, you know, when I walk into an event, I'm not, I guess I just I don't notice whether or not the speaker is black or white. I just, you know, walk in and listen to that.
 
Janelle Benjamin  23:19
Right. But that's the thing when so many people, right. So I should say this properly. So many white people don't notice when they are in the majority, which is all of the frickin time excuse my language, right? Yeah. You're always in the majority, right? But when you're racialized, you notice right away when you walk into a space, and you're the only one there. So and how many times has that happened to me, right? Everywhere I go. I'm always alone, right? To go to university. I'm in a, you know, largely white institution. And in 98% of my classes. I'm the only black woman or the only racialized person if there's other racialized people, they may be brown, they may be, you know, Chinese looking Indian, what have you, but I'm usually the only black one. And sometimes there's there's no other racialized person. And it's really interesting, right that with respect to speakers how this comes up is that you know, you've got panels, right, have always learned people that at this point in time, right, well, we're talking about diversity, inclusion, equity, accessibility for everyone. You go to so many events or conferences and things in every single panel member this usually the men or their, their white men or their white women and black women and, you know, Asian women or our Latino women are largely absent. And that's not because we're not we don't exist, we're not qualified. We're not you know, educated to speak on particular topics. And I think that's what the collection is about. It's getting out At, we can speak on a variety of a broad range of topics. Look how many of us there are globally, you don't have an access problem, right? The website starts by saying at Black Speakers collection.com. It's a community dedicated to closing the wealth gap, solving the pipeline problem and ensuring that we're no longer an afterthought, right? If you want to diversify your panel, right and truly have representation, well, here we are, right comm and make sure that you're, you're doing the right things proactively, to make sure that we're not absent from places where we absolutely shouldn't, could be right? If you want to balance the wealth in society and really create equity than you need to think about it everywhere.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:40
Yes. And it's you made a really valid point, if I walk into a room and I am the only white person, and it happens rare, very rarely, you know, I live it very rarely. Yeah, but I noticed immediately, and I go oh, okay. Obviously, it's because it happens so rarely for me that I immediately go. Okay, I'm gonna be recognized or noticed immediately I'm I'm right. I am a blonde, really pasty white, blue eyed woman. People are going to know about I assume people are going to notice me because I'm going to stick out. Yeah, the night. Here's another thing that I notice advertisements have have completely changed, you no longer see advertisements with just white people on them. They've, society has finally finally gotten smart. And now they have interracial families. If you have a picture of a family, they now are showing interracial families, they are now showing a variety of races on advertising when they have people on it. Finally, and this just I just started noticing this what over like the last two years. But prior to that, all advertisements where they actually had people on the advertising, it was always white people. It was never it was never interracial. Or rate, you know, it was never representing any other race than than white for the longest time. Yeah, you also see that now in more television shows that are coming up. Where you're seeing interracial couples, you're seeing more diversity in the people who are being cast in TV shows. So it's actually representing more variety of the different races that are there. But first, name one show when you were growing up that had any interracial or that was any interracial couples or friends.
 
Janelle Benjamin  27:59
Right? Honestly, that was almost impossible. You might, you know, the most interracial shows that I can think of are like the Jeffersons, you know, Georgia and Weezy had like the the white, or sorry, the black woman upstairs, Florence. I think her husband was white. In real life. That was true. That was that's Lenny Kravitz his mother. So you know, it's a true true life story, because Lenny Kravitz is biracial. And I also think about not good times. Sorry. It was the Jeffersons and something else Oh, different strokes, different strokes was, you know, Arnold and his brother Willis, two black children who were adopted by the by Mr. Drummond. He was the rich, wealthy white man. Right. And it was, you know, that kind of comedy, what you're talking about Willis. And he had Kimberly, his daughter, and they will, you know, the there was a rich, wealthy white family adopting the poor, impoverished black children and saving them from the ghetto. You know, other than that, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  29:02
There wasn't anything. And again, what is that saying? The rich white man saving the poor black boys.
 
Janelle Benjamin  29:12
Right. And even Jordan Weezy was like, you know, we're moving on up, we, you know, we're, we're rich now because they were drycleaners you know, he had a business and was able to move into this penthouse in the sky, this, you know, elite building apartment building where this black woman was married to a white affluent man, and could afford to live there. Right. So, again, reinforcing some problematic tropes and stereotypes and things about who we are and what we have access to. But it was it was funny, you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  29:41
Right. And again, I'm not I'm not slamming the, but this, as you know, as a society, we have things have drastically it's changed and we need to now have, you know, for my child for, you know, the children that are being raised, you know, I love my dog. otter right now is it a is a perfect age, she literally is at that age where when she looks at people, she sees no difference. She literally sees no difference she sees. You know, this is the conversation I sometimes have with her. She'll be on a playground. And there was a I'm not exactly sure what their true nationality was. But they did not speak English. This little girl didn't speak English. I could hear her talking to her parents, and she was speaking in another, another language. And she came over to me, she says, Mommy, I'm trying to talk to that little girl. She doesn't talk, right? I said, Well, she speaks another language. She goes, What's that? And um, it's, it's a different dialect. I don't know how to explain this to a four year old. Right? Okay. And I suppose you can still play with her. She goes, Okay, so they just, you know, stare at each other and run around and play. The Innocence of that is it's so pristine, you don't they don't learn that there is a difference or that you know, that there is any difference in them until they go to school. And then children start to, you know, talk, or there's that one instance where a child says something that they heard their parents say, and all of a sudden they come home and they make a comment, you go, Oh, my God, where did you hear that? Like, that's not okay to say. And then you have to start going through that there are different races out there that, you know, yes, children, sometimes they look different. They have different color skins, because, you know, we that's just the way that it is. And then all of a sudden that becomes that learned, you know, thing. But we're not born with the indication that there was anything different between any of us because under that skin under that we're not? There is no difference.
 
Janelle Benjamin  32:05
Yeah, I would say. But agree with a lot of that, of course, we're not born with a recognition that we're different or expectation that we're different. But studies do indicate that even babies, you're they start to see color, I think as early as three to four weeks. Yeah. And my daughter and most kids, I shouldn't just I want to talk about my own kids. But I'll start with my daughter, my daughter, she just turned four this year. And she already knows that she's Brown. She says she you know, she identifies that her dolls are different colors. And she and I make it a point to introduce her to a variety of dolls of all races and mixing colors and ethnicities and things. But when I see her gravitating toward adult more than doesn't look like her, it lets me know already that the world is already conditioning her to believe less of herself. So I, you know, I tell start to tell her how beautiful look at the black doll. And she's pretty just like you and you know, you start to do those types of things. Studies have shown I don't know if you've seen any, maybe you can put this in your show notes as well, the doll test. The doll test is a famous test that's been done, I think from the 30s or Ford 1940s. Repeatedly in different contexts. It's been done in Italy, it's been done in United States, it's been done in Germany. And what it does is it introduces a series of dolls, black and white dolls, to groups of four year old children in a variety of countries and you no matter what language they're speaking, when the child is introduced to the black dollar, the white doll, the you know, the questioner always asked the same set of questions. Which doll is pretty to the white child or whatever the the race of the child is black children or white children are exposed to the same test. They always invariably say the white dollars pretty which title is is is ugly, they'll end to justify the black doll. Which doll is smart, the smart doll, the intelligent doll, the you know, Which doll is the good doll, Which doll is the bad doll and study after study and time after time they've done this in the 40s. They've done this in the 60s I think they did in the 2000s. And it's on YouTube. You can put this in the show notes that it shows you repeatedly how children are constantly identifying the white doll as good as beautiful as better than the black doll and the black doll is bad and naughty and angry and all that lets us know that. From a very early age. We think that our children don't understand racial difference, but they absolutely do. So we do need to talk to them about it even before they enter school age. You know when my son was going to kindergarten, I felt silly for for doing this, but I, I was terrified, right? I thought he's some kid, you know, by the time he gets to grade one is going to be hurling the N word at him. And I better prepare him, right? You're gonna hear this word that you're not supposed to even know, exists anymore? And what should you do? If you hear this word? What does it mean? And you should talk to your teachers about it. But I've had to have that conversation with my black son, right? Very early on when he was, you know, going into school, because I knew that that was going, he was going to be exposed to that word, and lo and behold, you know, he's entered grade three, and that word has come up in the school year, this year, the principal's called me, because, you know, she knows I do this work. And it's, you know, Janelle, the word has come up among the boys in the school. But of course, you know, the white boys, they didn't mean anything by it. And it's like, okay, wait a second. Now, their principal. Let's talk about this. So it happens, kids understand racial differences. Difference, we do need to talk about them early, you know, the system of white supremacy is conditioning us all. So you know, whether they're exposed to books, or movies or TVs, or just even their tablets, and, you know, smartphones, my kids have them. They're swiping, but they're learning and they're seeing, you know, little girls dressed up as princesses and playing with dolls. And even when we're reading her like ABC book, you know, the princess on, Q is for Queen, when we get to the Q is for Queen, it's a little white girl with blonde hair, and she's got the little crown on. And again, it doesn't represent who she is or reflects her. So she's internalizing these messages. And we all do and we're just not conscious of it. So I think it's just incumbent on all of us to become aware of, of the need for diversity in children's books, and children's educational materials, movies, things that they're exposed to. If we do have more representation, then we're going to deconstruct some of that, thinking that whiteness is real.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:54
Yeah. And you again, you Yeah, you just, I learned something right there. These are things that I again, I grew up not realizing, I grew up in a tiny little town that had, I think, I had two black people in my high school. I was completely, you know, shell shocked when I joined the army when I was 17. And I went, and all of a sudden, I was like, Oh, my God, I have no experience in the world whatsoever. And when I say that my daughter doesn't see color, she doesn't see differences. That's not what I mean. She Yes, of course, she sees that. But she's not cont she doesn't she's not conditioned by my husband or myself. Or my my brother is married to you know, she calls herself you know, she says, I'm, you know, brown and her cousin is, you know, this beautiful, you know, mixed child. And she, when she sees that, you know, I'm thrilled that she's growing up in a world where there is more diversity, where there is more knowledge and education around that. Is it perfect? No, I, there's not going we're not going to hit a perfect world for probably not in my lifetime. But I'm thrilled that she is growing up in a world where there's more education on that than than the world that I grew up in. It's a weird world too, though. Because not only are we talking about race now we're also talking about things like I identify as a boy, yet I was born as a girl. These are all things that I'm, I'm scared out of my mind on how am I going to explain those things, right? I mean, these are just, we're, I'm entering into uncharted territories. But I think we're all entering into uncharted territories when it comes to the world. And the shift, but I am extremely excited. Because, like you, I have felt discrimination for a total different reason. It was when I experienced that, that I truly kind of went wow, I am Here I am, for all intensive purposes, a very privileged white woman experiencing discrimination because I was born with a mental health disorder. I can't imagine if I was simply born with a different color skin and discriminated because of that. Yeah,
 
Janelle Benjamin  39:41
it's some there's so much so much hate in the world. And unnecessarily, right we we focus on aspects of difference that don't actually mean very much. A lot of it is just socially constructed, like gender and race, right like If there is, we wouldn't know what being a woman was if society didn't tell us what women should do or what women should be and those definitions of you know, What's black and what's right white and what's, you know, even that is is blurry, right? Because as you said, there's there's more interracial or biracial children, interracial marriages, biracial children. And the skin color variations are, you know, in my own family, my own black family, it's a complete rainbow of skin colors and hair textures. And you know, yet everybody might identify themselves as black. So what is black? And what is what is white? And, you know, ultimately, we're all just people, the humanity of us all should just take over. We should all, you know, aspire to be as, as we once were, as children when none of these sorts of constructs touched us, right, like white supremacy, or, you know, race and gender and all of these things skin color, and you know, what makes us a boy or what makes us a girl I'll never forget, I'll tell a funny story. As a child, I don't think I understood that I was a girl, right? I don't I really think my parents did a really good job. And that's probably why, you know, I started to be very fair and equitable and balanced. I didn't understand that I was different. Of course, people told me that I was a girl and my mother would never put me in dresses and all of those things, but I didn't understand the difference. And I would I was I would, what would you call it back then a tomboy, right? I play with my Transformers and I would play with my Hot Wheels. And I would you know, watch the cartoons of the things that the the quote unquote boy boys liked, right? I didn't want girly toys. I didn't want dolls. I just wanted, you know, my, my lunch pail was a Star Wars lunch pail. And that's the one I wanted. My mom wanted to buy me a pink one or a purple one. And I wanted I wanted that Star Wars lunch, just for an example. So I went,
 
Leighann Lovely  42:01
My mom would put me in dresses, and then she would find me at the end of the driveway in a mud puddle and be like, You got it.
 
Janelle Benjamin  42:09
Yeah, so I'll never forget, there's you know, I grew up in an apartment building. You know, behind the building, there was a park and I was at the park with my dad this one day. And you know, I'm playing and I'm running and it's hot outside, and I'm jumping in, I'm having the time of my life, right? I'm with the boys and roughhousing, we're climbing trees, we're swinging over the creek and stuff like that. And I, you know, the boys take off their shirt, and I took off my shirt and I'm running and I'm, I'm bareback. And the boys are like pounding their chests. You know, Georgia, the jungle was out at the time. And I'm pounding my chest and doing all these things. And I'll never forget, at one point, my dad, you know, I stopped for some water or something just for like, a quick moment. And he looks at me, he's like, don't you think you should put your shirt on or now. And I just took off running like bolting and crazy and never thought about it until I was much older. And I reflect back now on my dad saying, don't you think you should put your shirt on and I'm thinking how mortified my father must have been right that his daughter is, you know, running around, topless, with the boys climbing trees, doing all these things without her shirt on just completely bare back. And without a care in the world. Right? I was totally carefree and not realizing that that's not something socially acceptable for a girl to do. Right, you should put your clothes on. And really, my daughter, we're gonna do that right now. I probably mortified it I'd probably run and put her clothes on. So it's really interesting how, at some point along the way, I lost that sense of self. That was me. And I became the girl quote, unquote. And I wear dresses, and I wear makeup and I brush my hair. Like, I would never go topless anywhere. And I didn't want my daughter to go topless. You know what I mean? Like, well, she's only four years old. And I'd put I'd be like Dory put your clothes on, you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  44:08
Your body's changed a little bit since that time. I mean,
 
Janelle Benjamin  44:14
Defenatly but at the same time, right? What is the social acceptability of you know, at that time boys wearing without wearing their shirts now the other signs on the store entries? You know, you can't enter without a shirt on and things have sort of changed a little bit but for girls today to just do that and run around bareback. I think it'd be just impossible, right? You know, when it's because of what we put upon them. Right? But we it should at that age, why? Boys and girls bodies are not very different at all, went out at all.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:52
It's not until they hit puberty that obviously I mean, obviously that they changed drastically but I mean what What would be the big deal? You can't tell the difference? You know, it's funny that you say you didn't you know, you couldn't tell the difference between. I remember a conversation with my my nephew. And we asked him, you know, how do you tell the difference between a boy or a girl? And he's like, Well, their hair. Boys have short hair. Girls have long hair. Well, no, my dad's wife has short hair. She's She always had really short hair. And we said, Well, what about Yeah, yeah, sure. They call her Yeah, yeah. What about Yeah, out? Oh, well, she's the girl. But she has short hair. We, and I remember him going, huh? And really thinking about that? And, you know, kind of going well? Oh, no, my whole theory has been blown up. Like right now what? You know, so, it's always interesting when when kids you know, start to formulate, like, how do you tell a boy and a girl? And I've never asked my I've never asked my four year old but she always seems to just know. Because I'll say is that a boy? Yeah, that's a boy. Is that? Is that a girl or a boy? That's well, that's and she just always seems to know. And I'm like, How was she figuring it out? Like,
 
Janelle Benjamin  46:13
because of the way that we we treat our kids, right? We put them in colors that are different. We, you know, like my kids. My daughter has everything in her closet. That's like pink and purple. Not because I want it that way. But that's what's on the rack at the store. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  46:28
Um, but my daughter know if I my daughter's favorite color is orange. Yeah. I've never
 
Janelle Benjamin  46:36
heard of that defined orange clothing that
 
Leighann Lovely  46:38
right? I have never met anybody whose favorite color is orange. Yeah. And I remember when she declared that. And I'm like, Oh, that's a face? No. It's been orange for from the very beginning. And since she was like, two, she's like orange, orange, orange, orange. And I'm like, how am I going to incorporate orange into her bedroom? Like? Yeah, I mean, but you're right. When we buy clothes for our kids?
 
Janelle Benjamin  47:09
Yeah, it's so easy. Okay, there's a lot to think about. Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:13
So okay. We're coming to time. The question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice? When would you go back to? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Janelle Benjamin  47:30
Well, you're asking me after I tell you that story. So yeah, I'm gonna go back to my younger self who's running around without, without her shirt on? Who thinks she could run as fast as the boys jump as high as the boys and do anything that the boys would do? And I would tell her that she's absolutely right, she can do anything that the boys can do, I don't think I would change a thing. I wouldn't tell her to put her shirt on. I would leave her in her, her complete innocence. And I know, that little girl knew that she was equal and as good as anything that the boys could could do or throw at her. And I think that's still the case. Even now. Now, maybe I think I'm better than for the better sex. So that's my bias. Now, now that I'm not that little girl anymore who believed in equality fiercely. Now, I think that women are far superior, you know, just joking. But if I could go back to another period, let me answer the question sincerely, if I could go back to another period in time, I probably go back to, you know, the person that I was in my early 20s. And just reassure that girl that she's capable of doing everything on her own and not, don't grow. I would say, don't graduate from school, and get a job. I would say graduate from school and create a job. You have what it takes. You're going to get some work experiences along the way that are going to help you guide others. But at the point where the workplace starts hurting, and people start hurting you. Believe in yourself, know that you have exactly what it takes to create your own job. That's what I would say.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:17
Awesome. That is, that is that is great advice. Great advice. Well, Janelle, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This has been such an amazing conversation. I could talk to you for hours.
 
Janelle Benjamin  49:29
Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was. It was good. A nice light hearted break in my day. appreciate you listening. I appreciate all your listeners who've listened to the end. Thank you so much again for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:40
Yeah, you have a wonderful day. Okay, you too. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/janellebenjamin/
 
E-mail – Janelle@allthingsequitable.ca 
 
Website – www.allthingsequitable.ca
 
Referenced in the Episode - https://blackspeakerscollection.pory.app/
 
The doll test - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOHbtM9463c
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, black, white, boys, girl, equity, world, experiences, thought, doll, speakers, children, interracial, inclusion, woman, day, grew, negotiating, society, speak
 

Episode 2 - Jaime White - Mother, Owner, Coach

Join Jaime White and me as we talk about her amazing experience including growing up with a serial entrepreneur, her 20 years of experience in real estate development and small business ownership, that lead her to her true calling in coaching others to help them find their true passions. Jaime is a mother of 6, she is outspoken and a strong woman, definitely a conversation I truly enjoyed having.
 
Leighann Lovely  00:22
If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:09
I'm very excited to talk with my guest today, Jamie white. Jamie White is a wife and business coach with over 20 years of small business and real estate development experience. Feeling a call to the coaching industry, Jamie is now focusing all of her energy into developing a faith based coaching business that focuses on helping people become the best version of themselves. Believe crew is a group of coaches learning together and helping others develop and grow. personally believe crew is for coaches that don't want to do the business part of coaching alone, Jamie has walked the walk of exhaustion juggled the challenges of leading multiple businesses while raising their six sons, and the potential of a divorce of an almost 20 year marriage to a former addict. Today, she's on the other side of that with lots of energy excited about the next 40 years with her husband and their boys, while leading their combined personal development and coaching businesses. So much can change when we change our beliefs, and start to invest in ourselves.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:23
Welcome, Jamie, I am so excited to talk with you. You know, I had the opportunity to talk with your husband in my previous season. So this is a treat. I am very excited to have you on and talk with me. So welcome.
 
Jaime White  02:36
Thank you very much for having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:37
Yeah, so why don't you you tell us a little bit about yourself?
 
Jaime White  02:41
Well, thank you, Leighann. This is something that I'm getting used to talking about. And so you know, when you have so much experience in life, and it sort of like what defines you what defines a person and when you're starting a new business, and you're trying to figure that out. So, but it's the 22 years of business experience that really keeps coming back as like, oh my word I've been through that. Like, you don't have to explain it to me, I've been there. And but I but I absolutely love business and real estate development. And so now I'm going into the coaching lane, which is something that I started to have a passion for. A couple years ago, as I started developing personally, then I realized that there was an issue in the coaching industry where there just wasn't a lot of support for the business side of coaching. So now I'm coming in combining my interest in business with coaching and hoping to help other coaches.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:37
That is awesome. And you're right. There's in the, for businesses versus individuals. There's there's kind of a lack there isn't there? Because, you know, if I want to go out and get somebody to work with me on an individual basis, there's a lot of there's there's some availability there, but for a whole company or for you know, yeah, you're absolutely right. But you just said,
 
Jaime White  04:03
Yeah, so what I'm actually looking to do is bring together coaches that are interested in doing personal development into a larger group so that we can share resources and recommend each other and everybody can have their specialty, but it's still a part of one community. So that's, yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  04:23
yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. So you are like you mentioned, you're, you're interested in businesses or business, but you are a business owner and a successful one at that you've, you've owned a couple is that, is that correct?
 
Jaime White  04:39
My husband and I have owned some rentals and some real estate and we actually have an escape room. And so we do have some businesses, but mostly what I was doing in the past was running other family businesses. And so I'm completely disconnected from that now and just really, really free to just go straight into the coaching lane.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:59
Okay. So, before we jump past that, so explain so you've you've run businesses, you're disconnected from that. Walk me along that journey a little bit. How does that all come about?
 
Jaime White  05:13
Well, when you grow up in family business, you just sort of, I mean, I, I started snowplowing, you know, before I had a license, he dropped me off in the Kmart parking lot, you know. And so just, you just born with it, it's in your blood. And then as you go through, I don't know if anybody else has this experience. But I have a dad, that's a serial entrepreneur. And so there's always the next new business that he's interested in starting. And so when I was 18, he asked if I wanted to start my own furniture store, and I thought, No, and I said, Yes. And I had no interest in design, I had no interest in furniture. But I had an interest in business. And so I thought that that would overcome all the other issues. So just, you know, all the different experiences that you can have along the way. And then when my mom died, a couple years later, he asked if I would come in and help with the other businesses that he already had running. And that's when I found my passion and my lane because I could actually scale something. The other one was more of like this design store. It's a long story. Long story. And I think you had said that you're, you know, like this season, you're one of the questions that you're planning on asking is like, what age would you start at? So it's just like, Oh, my word, all the thoughts come into my, my brain about like, all the different things that happen along the way of life. So when you ask about running businesses, and tell me about that story, and dig a little deeper, you know, really, what's the healthy and the healing part of where I'm at now is I'm so thankful that I had an opportunity to run multiple six and seven figure businesses at the same time, and I loved what I was doing, and the team I was building. But at the end of the day, the owner, which is also my dad, was not interested in the same things that I saw. And so it was time for one of us to go, and that person ended up being me. And, and the other way to look at that my team that I had built up, said, It's time for you to go and do coaching. So there's two ways to look at the same situation. You know, the one is like, oh, Ouch, that hurts. And the other one is like, Wow, that's awesome. You know, that, that I was in a position where we had built up leadership, and we had built up so many good things that they were like you go, you know, you empowered us. And now it's your turn.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:45
Wow. So you went in? And how many businesses at that time? Were you actively assisting and running?
 
Jaime White  07:58
Um, you know, there's multiple LLCs, you know, what it is when you start a business? Or maybe, I guess I shouldn't assume that everyone knows, but somebody's like, oh, I want to start a business. And they're like, somebody says, I want to start a business. And they're like, do I need to start an LLC? The answer is technically no. But it seems like we all think we have to go run and get an LLC. So there were like, 10, LLCs. But technically, you know, there were probably five or six that were really. And they were in different industries. It was retail and storage and rental properties. And then he had bought a dumpster company just before I came on board, and they were managing the dumpster company, from a whiteboard. And so when you would erase where the dumpster had been, then you wouldn't have to have records, no records, right? And so that was like my first project where that the group was like, the office manager at the time, we thought differently. And, you know, we didn't know that quote at the time, like dad said, Hey, can you come in and help me? And so I was like, Yeah, sure. And then they're like, Hey, we've got this problem, like problem.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:10
You've got, you've got to get more than a problem.
 
Jaime White  09:14
Yeah. So there was just a couple, but
 
Leighann Lovely  09:17
How old were you at this time?
 
Jaime White  09:21
You know what, I think I had just hit 30. And I, the year before I had been asked to come into his office was like, my best year, you know, physically, I was in really good shape. And that was tan I'd taken a lot of days off. And then he asked and I was like, no, like, a couple times. And then he just asked enough and I was like, Okay, fine. You know, it's like that moment, like, Okay, fine. If you need me, I'm here, you know, and, and it was such a mess. Like, I'm not just let's be real. It was a mess. There were 10 companies, the books were not an order and the person that The way it was being run, there was no leadership. You know, my dad was a serial entrepreneur. And he just kept saying, it's fine. You know what I mean? It's just the office. Like, there wasn't a lot of respect for the people in the office, and there wasn't a lot of an understanding of what new things could be done. And so he would come in, and he would say, Can we do the card file system? I was like, Oh, my mom. And he's like, your mom used to run this on index cards. And I'm like, Have you heard of the computer?
 
Leighann Lovely  10:31
What year are we living in?
 
Jaime White  10:34
This was not it was 2011. You know, it's like, Oh, my word. And then, you know, when I tried to change the phone system, it was like, well, we could just put four phones on the desks, like, I don't understand why you're making this so difficult. And I'm like, I need a phone system that can take multiple calls coming in from multiple companies. And so I found that stuff. So fascinating. And I loved it. We were definitely butting heads all the way along. But at the time, he, he had other things that he was interested in pursuing. And so it wasn't a focus. And then, you know, eventually, it was like, Oh, hey, I think I can do this now.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:15
You know, and that's it. It's interesting, because there are there are people out there businesses out there that are very progressive in nature. And then there are businesses that you walk into, and you're like, Whoa, I think I just stepped back into the 80s.
 
Jaime White  11:31
Yeah, in certain industries, you can get away with it. Not really anymore. Well, there is there is still a local industry that she has like carbon copies that she mails her invoices out on. So I'm gonna say that in, because in the, in the hands on work, like in our area, it's like an excavation business or like a sand hauling business or something like that. Like there's just not enough people out there competing. And so then technically, they can still get away with it. But they're not growing. They're, they're not adding people, they're not growing. There's no way you grow in that environment,
 
Leighann Lovely  12:11
Right. Know if you're small enough, but even I mean, so I originally went to school for computer programming. And during the time that I was in school, I was approached by somebody who was in the truth. Yeah, I was supposed to be in the independent contractor. He was a fire inspector for the city, contracted out by the city, the city wasn't able to handle the workload. So they contracted him out. They approached me and said, Hey, you're, you're in school for computer programming, do you think you could build us a database? And I'm like, do you really need a database for the amount of customers you had? And then I saw the stacks of paperwork. I mean, and I'm not just stacks upon stacks upon stacks and boxes of boxes, and I went, Oh, yeah, I have to find a way to be able to track and document where you've been, where you're going. And in today's world, even if it's 100, even if it's 200. Even if it's 50 isn't, it's that much easier if you're able to just sit down, but there are a lot of old school mentality. Now I was in school, this was would it this would have been like the early 2000s When I was, you know, pursuing my computer programming degree, which I almost, you know, it was a class short of my degree. And then I was like, I don't really want to do that. Switch to another degree and pursued that for another couple of years, to eventually, you know, settling on my my bachelor's in business in emphasis in HR. So what I did, helped me pay for some of my classes was I, I designed a database for them. Very simple. But I mean, you can use very simple deck just to enter in the basic customer information to make it searchable. Because I can't imagine looking at Rolodex and calling it but this is, of course, the way that it was done. But even even just that one, he was one man. And that's how he tracked all of his customers and have renewal dates and everything else. So it is even for a small shop like that. I don't think it's feasible anymore for most companies to be able to do and
 
Jaime White  14:31
I would agree. Right. But I didn't own the business
 
Leighann Lovely  14:35
You didn’t own the business. I suppose that it had to be even more difficult coming from the fact that you're one a coach to your the daughter.
 
Jaime White  14:45
Yeah, there's there were layers to work through it. But you know, I had done a lot of hiring and firing over the years. And I definitely took something huge away. Because I'd been there 22 years technically if you took you know the the furniture store experience and then tie I did in with all the other companies. And when I was doing the furniture store, again, that one was owned by him, but it was also they had no experience in retail. So that's how I ended up feeling like the owner the whole time. But at the end, I was just told we don't need you anymore. And I understand personalities. And so when I look back, you know, I have a really high D, in the DISC personality, and so I don't want to be considered obsolete. And, you know, my, my immediate reaction to that is not very good. But what I realized is that what I was missing was the Thank you. And so if I'm in a position, I expect to be in a position again, in the future to disconnect, you know, from people and maybe not specifically firing, you know, maybe it's just letting contractors go or something like that. And I just want to be in a position now to be able to say, thank you for the service for when you were with us. And it, it did make sense, you know, there's a point where it's no longer the right fit, and I I was no longer the right fit. And just hearing thank you for 22 years before being kicked up out of the door would have felt a little differently.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:09
So how was your relationship with your dad? No,
 
Jaime White  16:13
we're not talking, does that tell you anything?
 
Leighann Lovely  16:16
I'm so sorry to hear that.
 
Jaime White  16:18
I think, you know, I come from a family where you couldn't beat each other up, and then you, you know, get together again the next day, and it's totally fine. And so right now, I'm realizing that that was actually happening a lot. And I'd like to actually take a step back and say, you know, I don't actually need to get thrown under the bus that much and, and just, I'm taking some space, I think that it'll be good in the future. If, you know, there is a point where we are talking again, but right now it's, it's really good to have that space.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:47
Right? I have to admit, I know a little bit about you, because I well, you and I have not sat down and really had an in depth conversation. I have had multiple conversations with people in your circle. One being another Jamie White's actually.
 
Jaime White  17:04
That's funny. Yes. And
 
Leighann Lovely  17:07
I have to compliment you before I you know, really dive into the coaching side here because she was actually I interviewed her her for season one of my podcast and, and anybody who listened, you know, to her, you You fired her and said it right. You You did you you did and basically gave her an ultimatum you can you can leave here or in Actually no, I think it was I'm firing you from from being my caregiver for my children. You can either be my housekeeper or be a manager at is this the retail store?
 
Jaime White  17:47
It's antique. It's like an antique mall. So antique antique.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:50
And she now speaks so unbelievably highly of you, because you've given her an opportunity that she seemingly is thriving at.
 
Jaime White  18:01
Yeah, yeah. And that took me a long time to get to that point to be able to have that conversation like that, you know, it's not something that was natural. It was something that through coaching, I learned that giving people an opportunity, and letting them choose, but being clear about it. Like when it's no longer the right fit, you know, thank you for the time that you've been here. But now it's time for something or maybe and and here's a new opportunity, how would you like in one of my gifts. And this is what makes it so hard for me with the position that I was in and how it all went down, is I love to study the StrengthsFinder. And one of my gifts is Maximizer. That's my top one, which means I believe in people's potential. And then the other gift is individualization. Which means that I can see people's gifts and strengths and how they work well together with others. And so I asked my dad, I said, you know, if you were given all of this money, today, would you buy the same businesses that you currently have? And he said, No, I would buy a ranch. And I said, then go go buy the ranch. Like I'm completely supportive of whatever people want to do for their dreams. But what I wasn't doing was taking care of what my calling was and what my dream was. And so my kids were starting to see that. And they were saying, Hey, Mom, you're busy coaching all of us and telling us what, you know, what we should do or when we're not staying true to our core values. And they're like, but you're still staying somewhere that, you know, isn't true to your coaching. And I was like, Oh man, when your kids wake you up and kind of smack you in the face, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  19:37
You mentioned your kids. You're a mother of six. And I have to say that's insane. But you have a range, a range age where your children and some of them are much older, and they're getting to an age where they're able to call you out on because now they're able to recognize that in you, right?
 
Jaime White  20:03
Yeah, we have three older ones, and then three younger ones. And the three older ones were no mercy, which, you know, I haven't been super. I definitely let them know, you know, along the way, I, I said the other day, something that came out, and it's probably more true than I'd like to admit. I said something like, I breed entrepreneurs, so they're probably going to need therapy, if they decide not to become then so I've just been so you know, they've been my guinea pigs and practicing coaching along the way, and they were picking it up, and they picked it up really fast, like they can see when somebody is not being true anymore.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:41
Right. It's awesome that you have taught them that skill. But at the same time, like you said, kind of a slap in the face that now they're saying, Hey, Mom, guess what?
 
Jaime White  20:52
Yeah. And oh, man, it doesn't matter what I say anymore. You know, it's like, it's like living with coaches around here. You know, all of us are like, Did you hear what you just said? Like, that might be a belief. That might be a belief that you need to take care of. Okay, thank, you know, go work on that.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:14
Yep. That that would be like, my lip. That's every time I'm around my dad, my dad will look at me and go. Are you venting? Or do you want me to give you advice on this? Like, right? I'm just venting. And he's like, good, because you should not say that to anybody else. Okay, thanks, dad. Thanks. I'm aware of this. Yeah, you know, we all grow up in different but that's, that's awesome. So, mother of six. So what are the age age, the true age range here,
 
Jaime White  21:48
from two to 20. So our oldest is starting his own business as a machinist. And so he has a little teeny tiny workshop that he pays rent debt with a large machine, like it takes a crane to get it in. So it's one of those CNC
 
Leighann Lovely  22:04
Oh a CNC machine. Okay. very lucrative business. That's you. That's awesome. honing in on a skill.
 
Jaime White  22:12
Yeah. And the thing is that he loves learning and education. And so he's, I think being an entrepreneur is perfect, because you're constantly learning. So hopefully, he's challenged. But yeah, so from two to 20. There's six boys. And on Fridays, we take them to gymnasts, Cody Russell up in our area, he traveled the world touring as a, you know, like in one of those Cirque de Soleil type. And so I found something that the boys can all do together. And so he private coaches them on trampoline flipping. So I love to just see if I can get them to do stuff together.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:51
Right? Well, that's fun. And they all all of them all age ranges. They're all fun and all that's cool.
 
Jaime White  22:58
 Yeah. So they all go out on the trampoline the rest of the week in practice their flips.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:03
That's fun. That's got to be difficult, though, to find something that two to 20 that all enjoy doing together
 
Jaime White  23:12
A bigger challenge than you know, it was it was easy. The first three, you know, when they're all kind of boom, boom, boom. And then when you have space, you're like, Okay, we're doing stuff together. And I love to plan trips. And I love to plan trips with everybody and engage everybody. And then when you have the next set of kids, and they're not the same age, it just slows the whole trade down. And you're like, Wait, now, what are we gonna do together? So it does take some extra level?
 
Leighann Lovely  23:35
So what's the gap?
 
Jaime White  23:38
Let's see. There's an eight year old and then a 15 year old, so it's a seven year gap. So it took a while for me to be willing, for more. Wow, I
 
Leighann Lovely  23:48
just want to put that out on the record that I have a four year old and I'll never have another one.
 
Jaime White  23:54
There's still time. You know, I
 
Leighann Lovely  23:55
I'm 41 I'm not I'm not having any more children and just taking care of one child. For anybody who's considering having children.
 
Jaime White  24:05
One is a lot one is a lot. It's you've got a
 
Leighann Lovely  24:09
you've got a woman with six children and you've got a woman with one child. I will tell you if you want to message us you know after you listen to this I will tell you all the horrors of having just one child and I'm sure that Jamie will tell you all the horrors of having six and if you want to be talked out of having children I will surely be able to do that for you.
 
Jaime White  24:36
Yeah, one is, one is a lot yet.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:38
I love I would never ever not want to have her because she is the most pure, perfect thing in my life. Yeah, there's there's nothing more pure and she could probably she could do the worst thing in the world she could do Yeah. And their
 
Jaime White  25:01
energy, their energy is amazing like that. You just want to snuggle, you know, where it's like how can I just soak up just a little bit of this energy in this? Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:13
Yes. And I'm 41 She wants to play in the mommy come sit on the floor with me. And I'm like, Can we sit on the couch? Because mommy. Before? Now you? I have obviously spoken with your husband, Kevin White has also been I like I said, I you and I have never actually sat down, really gotten, you know a great comment. Well, we we've talked before, obviously. But I've spoken with a lot of people in your circle. Yeah. And you've gone through a lot with your husband, and you've come out the other side and your family seems to be whole and doing well. Tell me a little bit about that.
 
Jaime White  25:50
Yeah, so when I first was married, Kevin and I were married at 20. And even when we were dating, he had told me that he had had an addiction to porn, and I didn't understand what that meant. And so, you know, then later when it showed up in the marriage again, and he was he was honest about it most of the time, and I got to the point where I had really good intuition, and I could tell, and so I would call him out on it. And it was always better to talk about it versus leaving it hidden or pretending it didn't exist, because the energy is just so different. When someone is an addict, and they're hiding it. The energy of shame and guilt is, is, you know, under whatever is going on at the time. And so there were times my mom. So my mom had cancer, she was diagnosed at a young age. And so Kevin and I are early. I think we got married right after she was diagnosed. And then we had our first child within that first year. So I was 21. My mom is sick with cancer, I have a little one. And those first couple of years were crazy, hard, crazy hard, like where you just wonder, I mean, then I had the second one, and they both had whooping cough at the same time. And so now my mom has cancer, she's out, going around the country trying to get treatment. And then my younger brother and sister were home, so we were staying with them. So we were, you know, parenting teenagers, while having two little ones with whooping cough. And that was when I hit my hit my max capacity. And I called Kevin up. I called Kevin at work. And I said, I need help. And I grew up in a business. So the customer always comes first. And so when Kevin said I can't come, I questioned it, because I knew he wasn't running a business. I knew he was in management. But I also just at this point kind of questioned the decision of like, really? How could that be more important? And I think, you know, his response was like, Well, I'm sure you have some help, you know, you'll be fine. I, you know, and like that position of leadership. But I didn't understand the addict mindset that he just didn't really have the emotional capacity to understand what I was actually in the middle of and I, to be fair, didn't say, the house is on fire. You know, I wasn't super clear that this is like, like, this is a big deal right now, this is mental breakdown moment. And so then, you know, just going through that stage of life where there's just a lot going on, and you're slogging through and you're not sure what you're doing right and what you're not. And my, we would go visit my mom on weekends to try and help her out because she was getting so frail. And you know, she's in a walker at 44. But like, her bones were breaking and brittle. And and so it would be you know, what, one of the stories is one of my kids birthday. And Kevin is hiding, you know, like a lot of our marriage, he was like hiding, you know, and just like that low energy that comes from addicts. And again, I didn't know, I didn't totally know that. That's why we were having these struggles. And so, you know, looking back, I was the enabler, I was the, you know, we're gonna make it work. We're gonna figure this out. I'm a problem solver. We're gonna you know. And so, we had three kids and my mom had just died. My sister had just died. His mom was now sick and dying. And so they, you know, our moms died early on, and there was just so So much going on that you just do life, you don't just over you don't, like, we're running business, you've got your job, you know, I'm going this way, you're going that way, and you just keep kind of doing life. And then I think I had mentioned early in the podcast here that, you know, when I was about 30, I was feeling great and physically feeling great. And I just, you know, been really taking care of myself. But then within a couple of years, I hit a low point, and I just didn't even know that, you know, for years, I wondered, like, How did my mom get cancer? And how could you not like, would you know, that it was coming and then I had this thought when I was in my early 30s, like, you know, actually be kind of peaceful to die. And I realized that, if I kept having thoughts like that, I could see how your body could be cancerous, like how you could be in a not good state. If I continue to have these kinds of thoughts. What am I going to look like five years from now? Right? And so I remembered I thought, you know, usually we say, well, I don't have the time, or I don't have the money. And my mom had spent a ton of money, trying to get help, and a ton of time trying to get help once she was in a really bad state. So I thought, Okay, well, I'm not going to wait that long. But to give myself permission today. And I told my boss, aka my dad, and I told my husband and I said, I'm gonna go get myself some help. Like, I don't know what this means right now. But I'm basically telling you, I'm spending money. And I'm taking time off. I don't know. And I think that was the moment that I started taking care of myself. And I didn't realize how important that was. Before that,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:50
You know what, oh, I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. But I think that the majority of us don't realize that. And you're you the fact that you were so self aware. And the fact that you were strong enough to tell your loved ones that hey, I need to take a beat, I need to take care of myself. We all forget, you know, the the old saying of if you're on an airplane, your masks drop. put your mask on first. Yeah, yeah, it is. 100% true. But so as in, and I see this a lot in women, a lot in women, it's, it's also in men. And it's becoming just as equal but women predominantly the the responsibility of children, and the responsibility of a lot of the house duties have always fallen on them. Yeah. And you have that the idea that the housework and keeping everything always pieced together and held together, falls on. So women
 
Jaime White  32:55
were really, were really good at it.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:57
Yes. And so we just assumed that, well, if I just continue to just squeeze and keep everything in place, and just hold it together, I will be fine. I will be fine. But eventually, you realize that I'm not fine. And yeah, the more and the harder I squeezed to try to keep this together, the more life I'm squeezing out of myself, and possibly everybody else around me. Yeah, having that self awareness. And again, I'm not just saying it's in women, I There are plenty of men out there, who, who need to also be aware and self aware that they have to to, it's just that men for so long have have not been willing to ask for help or feel that there is shame in asking for help. And not one person in this world has accomplished anything 100% on their own unless, of course they're climbing or scaling a mountain on their own right. But the majority of us the things that we accomplish in business in life, there's usually somebody there backing us up or helping us or training us or teaching us or helping rise, you know, helping us rise, right?
 
Jaime White  34:06
Yeah, if if I wouldn't have seen my mom, then I don't know if I would have connected the dots. You know, I am definitely someone that thinks about things and you know, can be in the overthinking category. But seeing it and living through it with her and just wondering what how did that happen? Because technically, the life looked perfect on the outside. I mean, she was absolutely beautiful. She ate all the right things. She exercise, you know, millionaire, like, technically very successful looking. And I didn't know there was a problem behind the scenes with you know, emotional pain that you know, she was working. I mean, I knew later. So I was aware, I was aware and i There were a lot of things that I had learned through her journey. And that's what keeps me you know, where I was like, Wait, it's not going to be any better. If I just keep letting this go, something's going to have to stop. And you're right, that it can be men and women. And I think at its core, I really feel for anybody that says, I'm exhausted. And when you can't sleep away the exhaustion, because that's probably one of the first signs that you're heading for burnout. And so it happens to both sides. And I really have a passion and a heart for people that are in that space of burnout. And just being like, I can't figure this out, I can't figure out why I can't sleep this off. I'm just and you know, that's when I realized that I wasn't being true to my core values. There were there were beliefs in conflict, there was another level that I didn't know existed. And that's, you know, that was the start of the coaching journey for me, because I didn't know that there was like this whole nother level of thinking. I was just doing life, you know, when that question that, you know, what, what's the question? What age?
 
Leighann Lovely  35:57
So you want the question of this? I do. Okay, well, let's do this. Yeah, the question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Jaime White  36:16
Yeah, so there's a song, dear younger me. And I think about that often. And, you know, you go back, okay, for me, I go back to 18. Because up until 18, everything was almost magical. Like, I lived in a bubble, it was great. And all the sudden, the bubble popped. And, you know, so in some ways, you could say there's pros and cons to having a bubble. But it goes back to this idea. I think we're all meant to grow. I know, we're all meant to grow. It's a basic human need. And there's something that happens when you're at that, you know, 17 or 18 Age frame where people are like, What are you doing next? What are you doing next? And, you know, you don't know you can't figure it out. But you're like, Man, I gotta figure this out. I don't know, what am I doing next? And you're just trying to figure out, how do I get my life together? Like, I'm moving and I'm transitioning. And but there's just this really high awareness about the transition, you know, people are talking about it all the time. Well, technically, there are a ton of life transitions. And we just don't talk about them at the same level. And we just stop asking the question, what are you doing next? What are you excited about? You know, like, how many people do you meet? And you're like talking to them? And you're like, what are you learning now? Or are you going to school? Are you doing this, and people just don't ask the questions in the same way that they do. When you're in that, you know, high school years of like, or early teen or late teen, you know, early 20s have, like where everyone's excited, they know that you're gonna be doing this transition. And there's just a lot of conversation around it. And maybe different people had a different experience. But for me, when I look back, I feel like there was just this idea that you're launching into something different around that timeframe. And then
 
Leighann Lovely  38:09
what? So what advice would you give that 18 year old girl,
 
Jaime White  38:15
that this is just one of many transitions? Like, how do we navigate life successfully, we already have it inside of us, and trust your gut and intuition. And don't feel like you're making this, you know, lifetime decision that and really, you know, I think for me, and maybe this isn't for everybody. But for me, I don't think that I felt like there was going to be somebody else with me on the journey after you leave school, you know, like, in your high school years, you have your parents, you have your teachers, you just have different mentors and coaches along the way. And then it's sort of like, okay, I didn't, I didn't have this idea that there would be somebody else that would mentor me besides my parents, or besides, you know, if you go to school or something like that. And so, today, I just feel like there are meant to be so many mentors in our lives and Institute.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:09
And statistically speaking, when it comes to that age of of individual, you know, I think that a lot of people, again, an 18 year old, they're graduating high school, they're moving on to college, or some and I'm not a college pusher at all, some moving into a trade school or or getting an opportunity to actually work in the trades or like your son opening up his business. You know, what CNC machine? And you're right, there's going to be so many transitions. Oh my gosh, if I talked about all the transitions that I had in my life, we would never stop talking. Right? Right. But statistically speaking, the thing that somebody goes to school for is unless they're going to school to be a doctor, unless they're going to school to be an accountant, something that you actually have to have a specific degree in usually doesn't end up what they become.
 
Jaime White  40:06
We and you, I, you, we might be on here for another hour if we get started on this subject because I, I am the type of person that would say, Okay, you want to be a teacher, let's find a different way besides the traditional system like I go online and I google how to become a teacher from and I go to the Wisconsin Department of, you know, whatever I need to find. And there are a lot of alternative ways to get to even those things that you think you need to have a traditional degree for. I am so anti system and pro education. That's my lane.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:41
Okay. Wait a second. Anti System Pro education? Well,
 
Jaime White  40:45
pro learning?
 
Leighann Lovely  40:46
Yes. Pro learning. Okay, I am. Absolutely I am anti give your money away to the government, for you to walk away in debt to start your life out? Yep. I, seriously, you want me to give you $80,000 For a piece of paper that says that I have a degree in XYZ that I'm never probably going to end up doing unless I'm a doctor that's going to sorry, if you're not, if you're gonna do surgery on me, you better have a
 
Jaime White  41:15
better degree, some experienced someone else.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:19
Right? And, you know, I, you know, if you're going to do my accounting, I would really prefer that you've had some, you know, schooling on on the laws and accounting. You know, how many people I come across who are like, Oh, I went to school for blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, so what do you do for a living, they're like, Oh, I do, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that has absolutely nothing to do with what you went to school with. I would love for school to become all tech schools, hey, let me go to school, two years, get the hands on experience that I need. And walk away with that, and then have more large organizations, very large companies say, we will take on these individuals and get Hey, the government gives them a little bit of money to to actually bring on and give them real world experience. And now, speaking from a recruiter, I would speaking from somebody and you're right, we could talk for that. Go give a company money, go give company 40,000 a year, or 50,000 a year to take on three students and train them on how to do you know office accounting work, how to do billing, how to do payroll, how did you machine whatever it might be, instead of having them go into debt to become the we did this in the trades for years, we had all of these, you know, apprenticeships and all of that stuff that what went away, now you have to go to school and pay to become it.
 
Jaime White  42:45
Why? So I love that you open this door, because this is this is a door that I you know, try and keep closed and I use the word try loosely. So what you said about trade schools, so I used to totally be in agreement with you about trade schools. And then recently, I found out that they're doing a class that is a needed class that I needed to hire people that knew how to use Microsoft Office Word OneNote Excel, like I want people coming into the office, knowing how to use this product, the class is so bad, it's it's actually so bad. I'm not sure the statistics are a bad thing. The class is so bad, that I don't want to hire anyone that has passed it, I would actually prefer to hire the people that have failed it or have chosen to withdraw. Because it doesn't even allow you to think like I need people coming in that want to work for me that want to think that want to grow, they want to be given opportunities, because with technology the way that it is today. What I'm seeing as way more important is that companies that have these new technology, they're creating their own certifications. And kids can go online and say hey, I want to learn how to do HubSpot, you know, or something and become certified in Salesforce or something like you're way more ready for the workforce. If you go get a certification from a company that is a sob that's providing a solution to businesses, then going into the school systems. And I was under the misunderstanding that academia or college was to prepare you for the workforce. And some people have been saying, Well, no, it wasn't even that wasn't even the point. I'm like, Well, okay, good to know, because that was not taught to me
 
Leighann Lovely  44:31
know, I'm at high school, and they teach you in college. And this is a battle that recruiters fight a lot. They teach you in school that when you graduate, you should be making a minimum of six.
 
Jaime White  44:45
Kevin told me that line when we were getting when we were dating and then thankfully, I only plan for half of that.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:50
Right and I and I'll talk to some of these college students and I'll go wait, I'm sorry. Why do you think that you should be making this much with no experience and only an education and they're like, well because that's what our professors told us when we graduate. And I'm like, Okay, well, good luck with that,
 
Jaime White  45:06
oh, man, I did not think about how recruiters are dealing with it, because that was the issue for me. And hiring and firing, like, the position I was in, I actually found that the best thing that I could do to get the workforce to be in a good place was to hire, the higher the education, the more it gave confidence to the people that were under qualified, under certified, you could say, like, people coming in with no experience and no education, were nervous when they're starting. But they had a desire to learn and desire to do the job. They weren't so Oh, yeah. And so and they, and they looked for ways to solve the problems, they didn't just expect the problem to be solved. And so then I would hire the four year or, you know, college degree students. And it ended up being that that was the confidence builder, because when the other people were like, wait, I'm training you on this, you don't know, well, then never mind, like I got this. And it just it, it was the best, cheapest way to build confidence in the team. And it was like an internship, you know, you have an internship for a little bit. But if schools if anyone is willing to help these students, it's building the soft skills. And we know this, we say this all the time, but it doesn't seem to matter. They're not interested, I called the college and I said, Look, I actually need you to teach this product. Right, this Microsoft Office product, I got nowhere, I talked to the dean of the college, I got nowhere and I was told that it is a required course by the state. And I am telling you, it is so bad that I will hire the people that withdrawal from the
 
Leighann Lovely  46:42
course right now, and I want to, I don't want my audience to think that I am anti school, I am not anti education, I am not anti learning. I'm not me either. There are some individuals that need to that need to experience college in order to to get a true understanding of the world, they need to get out there. They need to experience college, it is a good experience for them. But there are some individuals that that need a different experience. And that's a true work experience that that's a true and there are certain disciplines, engineers, accounting, obviously, doctors, there are certain areas that you do need to go to a four year college, but going to a four year college and getting a bachelor's degree in economics, what for being so that you can say that you have a degree, a bachelor's degree I struggle with that I struggle with with people who say, Well, my child is going to get a degree. Yeah, for what? So that you they can waste your money or their money will be in debt. There's a lot of
 
Jaime White  47:53
degree guilt, a lot of degree guilt, they stay in an industry that's not even there. It's not their gift and strength, because somebody else told them to go for it. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  48:02
Yeah, I truly believe that some of these individual they go in, they hide at school, and they stay there as long as they can. Because they are afraid that they Yeah, know what they want to do. Yeah, absolutely. And then they come and talk to me and go, Well, I you know, I was in school, but I don't really know what I want to do. And I'm like, What did you go to school for it? Well, I just went, I just went and got my general, you know, economics degree. And I'm like, Okay, do you have any areas of interest? Really? Just, I'll take anything? And I'm like, Well, I can't help.
 
Jaime White  48:32
Oh, yeah. I love that. So I used to have a booth at the job fair. And, you know, so I would ask, you know, what are you here for thinking, you know, maybe they had an idea of what they were looking for. And the response more than often than not was a job. And I said, like the other booth?
 
Leighann Lovely  48:53
It's, so if that's what we're kicking out, then maybe there needs to be a, let's learn about all of the different types of industries out there. Let's learn about what, what an engineer does. What does mechanical engineer do? What does an electrical engineer do? What is you know, based on somebody's skill match? What does a computer programmer do? What is a, you know, aeronautics engineer what and I'm listing all these engineers, you know, what is what is an accountant? Do you know, based on personality types, maybe before they go to school, they should take Yeah, personality is absolutely once which is obviously going to change the more they get exposed to the world to the more they come out of their shell.
 
Jaime White  49:39
But so our kids all know we have one really high D in the disk and he's got learner as his number one strength and then the next kid knows that he's totally different. And that really helps their communication to understand like, just because this is what drives you. This is not what drives your brother. And so the first one is a machinist you know super high person Vision oriented and driven results. And the next one is totally into the next movie that's going to be released and looking at, you know, becoming an influencer on tick tock and who knows he is going to have a digital PhD by the time he's done doing all this research. And the next one is doing construction, but wants to write a book, like, we totally embrace that you get to, like, really dig into you and not be shamed for not, you know, being a good speller or loving math or whatever, because I saw that, you know, as an A student, I needed to work for the other people, because I was still looking for the A versus the people that weren't getting the A, and they're like, Hey, I'm just gonna figure this out on my own. I was like, actually, that's actually maybe a better idea. But, you know, when you go back to the idea about debt, I don't know, this is kind of a foreign concept for me. But maybe, let me see, it's not really a foreign concept, it makes so much sense to me. But maybe it's a foreign concept. So I'm encouraging my children to be entrepreneurs, and to go into a field, and then be able to write that field off when you go to get some education around it. So I'm wondering, like, instead of going into debt about college, if we can look at it as a business write off.
 
Leighann Lovely  51:22
Hey, if I could write off my college expense right now, I would be like jumping for joy because I graduated with my my bachelor's degree finally, in 2008. Now remember, I started you know, so I was in the military, I came back, I couldn't figure out what do I want to go to school for it was recommended to me that I go to school for computer programming, because I am high, extremely high and math skills, you're you're off the charts, you're extremely great with math. So you should go in for accounting. Well, unfortunately, accounting didn't work. For me, I have a disorder called mixed dominance disorder. It's a form of dyslexia. So yeah, that's not going to work. Right? When you transpose numbers, and you know, transport, I write letters backwards, I write it. Obviously, accounting is not going to work when you're flipping numbers around. So computer programming, I'm like, okay, great. I liked it. I enjoyed doing it. Like being able to, you know, write code, write little databases here and there, blah, blah, blah, but realized, I don't really want to do this, because I love people write and write is not a match, I'm not going to sit behind a desk all day long and write code and the only way you're going to grow in that, you know, in that discipline is if you at least do that for a couple of years before you reach any level of being able to communicate with people.
 
Jaime White  52:42
So technically, what you're saying speaks to the other problem that I see, which is how many of the higher education courses are sales based, are really people based. And sales is like not talked about at all people went through interior design, and then I would hire interior design students. They had no sales ability. What do you think? So you're gonna be selling to somebody,
 
Leighann Lovely  53:05
right? But here's the thing is that I went, so I switched my degree to my bachelor's degree. I was able to put all of my Gen Ed courses towards my bachelor's degree. They all transferred, graduated in 2008. With a discipline in human resource management. I was working in the field, then the floor dropped out. Yeah, yeah. Economy. Yeah, I had to defer my student loans for a long time. Because I was making Well, what 2008 I was making 50,000 base plus bonus, based on you know, production, blah, blah, blah. After I was able to get back in the market, I couldn't make more than 30,000 Yeah, barely pay my rent. Yeah. So if you have yours, I deferred my student loans. I know still, to this day, I owe $10,000 more than what I originally took out to pay for my student loans. On my government student loans now I've paid my my private student loans way down really quick. But my government student loans I owe $10,000 More than I originally took out still.
 
Jaime White  54:18
I'm really glad that you're sharing that because when I've talked to people about that, and I'm pretty good at getting deep with people. They struggle to share that because it's so much shame
 
Leighann Lovely  54:28
because it's embarrassing as all hell yeah. That in tooth out since 2008, it is 2022 Yeah, and I am still struggling to pay that down. And I am a successful businesswoman that right I'm not gonna say I'm a millionaire, right but there I own my own home. I have two cars. I own a very nice home, but it's
 
Jaime White  54:53
it is going where the payment plan is set up.
 
Leighann Lovely  54:56
It's the the last effing thing I pay off. I'm going to slow as slowly as humanly possible, pay that off and hope that one day the government finally gets on board and says, Yeah, we kind of screwed a lot of those people, let's wipe it away. Now, they're never going to wipe away a private student loan, the government has the ability to say we need to forgive some of these these student loans that had been sitting out there that we tacked on 10s of 1000s of dollars of interest on top of
 
Jaime White  55:20
It's a, it's a cycle of a problem. Because when I was at the job fair with a booth to offer people jobs, that my biggest competitor, were the other colleges saying, hey, come over here, and you can get a better job. And I'm not saying that I don't want people to better themselves. I absolutely agree with education in the form of learning. I'm just saying that in today's society, I believe that there are a lot of options that do not cost as much, but employers will pay for people to get education when they see someone that wants to hustle. I was at the point where I was offering, you know, $5,000 a year credits to my employees saying, hey, go get some leadership training, go get some What do you want to learn? And they were like, we can't even find a course we're interested in, because everything we want to learn is actually online. And that's why we switched to leadership. Like there's just, it's just a really interesting market. And that's why like, even with our kids, were like, What do you want to learn? What do you want to do? And they're like, Well, I can find it online. Like, okay,
 
Leighann Lovely  56:19
you know, and I have this conversation all the time with, with my dad is my, my mentor, my hero, my, you know, he businessman, for years ran out, you know, had many agents underneath him, he was in the real estate industry. So he was mowing. And I talked with him all the time about, you know, higher education, and you know, am I going to push my daughter or my kid, I'm going to let my daughter choose Make a decision for herself. Now, the nice thing is, is that her grandparents, my husband's parents set up an education fund for her,
 
Jaime White  56:50
right? Well, even if she has that fund, you're saying at this point,
 
Leighann Lovely  56:55
I don't know where the education system is going to go. In the next 10 years,
 
Jaime White  57:00
I had hoped for the tech system. And then when I called because I was like, this program is really bad, like really bad. And they're like, it's basically mandatory. And anybody that needs to take a course, or anybody that wants to have a degree, pretty much has to take this course. And if you would have told me that as a business owner, if you would have said, to put me in a roundtable and said, Hey, this is a mandatory course Microsoft Office Word, Excel one, I would have said, awesome. That's great. That's what we need. Hello, actually look at the course. Oh, wait. They're not training anybody on it. They're training you to memorize. I do not need anyone coming to my office that needs to memorize stuff, because I don't have any training program built out at the level that you can memorize it. And even if I did, I probably don't know how to train you on it. Because what's happening with the generational multigenerational workforce is the technology is changing so fast that what the young kids coming in have the ability to do is learn the new stuff faster than those of us that are there. We don't even know how to use the programs we're using. And that's not going to change that is not going away. So
 
Leighann Lovely  58:08
I Okay, so years ago, Microsoft, I obviously computer programming. Well, we all had to take that. There was no memorization we known it was a build your own, it was like a urine out. It was access at that time. Yes, the database that I use, yes, I built a database in access. So there was no memorization. It was, hey, here's access. Here's what we're going to learn today. And then by the end of that course, you had to go home and create an actual database
 
Jaime White  58:36
I thought when I started the furniture store that I was going to create my database for tracking inventory, because I didn't know that software like QuickBooks existed. And so I was so busy trying to create it in Excel and access that, you know, when somebody came to me, and they're like, do you want to use QuickBooks? And I was like, what's that?
 
Leighann Lovely  58:52
Right. So, yeah,
 
Jaime White  58:55
There's just so much out there that we're not really being made aware of in the school system is where I'm coming from right now.
 
Leighann Lovely  59:04
No, I higher education is. Yeah, we could talk for the next. But we are at time, and we're going to have to wrap things up. So you're coaching. If somebody you're with belief crew,
 
Jaime White  59:22
yes. Yes. So somebody wants to get a hold of us.
 
Leighann Lovely  59:26
If somebody wants to get a hold of you. How would they go about doing that?
 
Jaime White  59:31
Well, thank you, Leighann for hosting and thank you for inviting me on. I did not expect it to go in the direction that it did. And I love where it went. I am been looking for a platform to discuss this because I think it's a huge issue. And if somebody wants to get a hold of me and any coach in personal development, I'm actually looking to bring on more coaches. And so we've created a company called believed crew. So obviously we have a website you can just Google belief crew, Jamie white, if you spelled it my way. I am the other Jaime white, which is J A I M E, and just hilarious that there are two of us that met. But um, and you can reach out via cell phone. I'm always available too, but in you know, in this virtual world, it's amazing how everybody's using these calendar links and scheduling and booking and you know, LinkedIn, find me on LinkedIn and website. I love this. I love this virtual world and in our ability to connect, I don't have to know your cell phone number. I can just find you on LinkedIn and send you a message.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:00:34
Yep. Awesome. Jaime, this has been such an amazing conversation. I truly am a better person for meeting you as well as your husband, Kevin, and it has been just it's it's been awesome getting to know both of you and I look forward to future conversations with both of you.
 
Jaime White  1:00:51
Well, I come back anytime. Thank you, Leanne.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:00:54
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/believecrewjw/
 
Website - https://apps.believecrew.com/our-community
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
 
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business, people, coaching, mom, degree, years, pay, school, firing, college, started, learn, life, student loans, coaches, furniture store, kevin, conversation, dad, world
 

Episode 1 - Andy Weins - Serial Entrepreneur

Check out episode 1 of season 2, where I have Andy Weins is in the hot seat. Andy is a one-of-a-kind serial entrepreneur, veteran, speaker, coach, and all-around genuine human. We dive in on creating culture, understanding people, and running a successful business.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:19
If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned, and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:07
Launching Season Two with me today, I have an amazing guest. He is a serial entrepreneur, speaker, veteran owner and all around humanitarian. Of course, if you met him at random, you would probably think he's just an average Joe, because he's the kind of person that would stop and help you change your tire on the side of the road. Of course, he would not get away without a great conversation and a whole lot of F bombs. Because Andy wines is his authentic, unique self no matter where he is. And that is why I am so excited to have him join me and have an awesome conversation today about business ownership, about culture, and about basically, how to run a business.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:50
Andy, thank you so much for joining me today. Why don't you tell me in five minutes or less a little bit about yourself and your business?
 
Andy Weins  02:00
I mean, we get down and dirty even less than five minutes Jack, I bless we got a lot of questions to get to it's not to talk about me. Let's talk about HR. Break it out Barney style. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I was born and as an entrepreneur, I worked for large corporations, I worked for small companies, I joined the military deployed came back home. And after having done all those things, I realized that I was running away from what I was put on this earth to do, which was run businesses. My father runs a business with my mom. Both my grandfather's ran businesses, my great grandfather's tool, my four grandpa great grandfather's ran businesses is what we do. So I run businesses. I'm a father, I'm a veteran. That's it. I mean, we don't need we don't need much more time. And then I'm sure we'll get into some stories over the next hour as we dive into HR, what makes me tick.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:53
Awesome, great, great beginning, and I was gonna go right into, you know, in all senses of the word from the moment that I've met you, you are definitely a serial entrepreneur, but a successful one. Many, many people can say that they're a serial entrepreneur, but few can say that they are successful serial entrepreneurs, right? So you wear many hats? How do you go about balancing all of the different job duties that go along with owning multiple businesses.
 
Andy Weins  03:25
It's all about the use of language. I'm a big fan of linguistics. And so one of the words we I don't use and one you just use, there is balance, don't use the word balance. It's not about balance, it's about alignment. Do these things go together? I look at life. And it's really it's really three parts? It is it are three aspects of defining who you are, right? It's kind of the what you do, right? That's we talked about here, this is the work thing, right? And it's the family, right? And then who you are as a core person? Well, let's just take those three things, right. And the goal is, these are three strands, right? I can I liken it to a rope, or you have these three strands. And separately, if they're competing, right, we think about balance, one goes up, one goes down, right? That's balanced, it's bullshit, you will constantly be juggling and fighting. But the goal and the key thing is how do you align these three things? Right? Because within those strands, there's a lot more strands and a lot more depth. But how do you get those three main strands to align, interact? And then as you do that in life, the more you have these strands interacting and have alignment, you have this nice, strong life. And so I look at even within work, right, which strands, feed the major strands, right? And then how does it interact with my family and how does it interact with my relationship with myself? And then how do I build this strong, repeatable life that I want? And then it's about alignment. And then how you do that is you consistently look at yourself, and it's about self awareness, self regulation, and then self reflection and For those three things, right, when you're in that reflection stage, you're to start stop, continue methodology. And within start, stop, continue, you will look at going back to the beginning, what do you need to start doing, stop doing or continue doing so that you live a life that is alive in these three aspects of your life?
 
Leighann Lovely  05:19
Wow. And you said something that's, that's really important, which is, you know, self awareness. And obviously, everything starts with with that. Yep. How did you get yourself to that point, though?
 
Andy Weins  05:33
Well, I mean, the running joke is self awareness is the first step. But it's not the last step, right? What is the most critical step because it's the first step. And that is where I'll make the argument. Most People Fail. They, they are not aware of who they are. And there's, there's a ton of methodology of how you can make yourself aware of it. I don't care if you do a DISC assessment, or Myers Briggs, or ask the people around, you go to a fucking counselor, like, figure it out, right? Get a bunch of these data points. And then also understand how you represent and is the person that walks in the person that wants to walk in, right. And so being aware of that, and then being good with it, right, the moment you stop giving a shit about what other people think or feel is a beautiful thing. Now, those are data points, it's not that I don't care, it's that I'm not going to let those perspectives change who I am for the sake of change, I'm not gonna let people water me down for the sake of watering down, if I want to modify my behavior is because I'm aware of my behavior. I regulate my behavior, because in reflection, I recognize what I do and do not get out of this world. And I want to make sure it's consistent across the board. So that's the key was self awareness. Are you doing something different? And if not, are you comfortable with who you are? Are you content are those very different words? But what is that word that drives that? Once you have that conversation with yourself, then you can show up to life? And breathe easy being you unapologetically? Because 8 billion people on this planet you are you no one else can do it better. Just go out and be you. But be aware of who you are that avatar of a person that that thing that operates, you know, it's different than the the body and how it reacts in the world is very different than the soul and the mind. Right? But what is that avatar? Is that consistent with who you think you are? Who you want to be? And what do you want to get out of this world? Once you started doing that and take the time, you got to put the time into work on yourself. That's where I think a lot of people fail. They don't take the time. They don't put the time in because they'd let their ego get the better of them.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:43
That's, that's amazing. And I think that we all wish that we could constantly show up only as ourselves constantly No,
 
Andy Weins  07:51
no, no, no, I'll take a line for Brad Herta. We don't wish we plan. Right. Okay, well, there's a difference. Wishes pot a fucking star. No, we plan. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wake up early, I'm gonna have my coffee. I'm gonna put pants on. I'm gonna whatever, whatever the plan is that gets you to show up as the person you need to be. I can think of I can. I know the elevator. There's an elevator in Walkinshaw. I have to go to the third floor to go to this networking group that I don't want to go to I haven't wanted to go to I haven't gone to in a while. But before I didn't want to go there. But in my head. I'm like, I gotta be here for the sake of my business. And if I'm going to show up here, I got to show up. So elevator door closes, it's gold, mirrored fucking whatever. 1990s bad to Corp. Anyways, I can see my reflection. And if I show up, like I don't want to be here, that person shows up. But if I show up, and I put a stupid smile on my face, I show up different and that's a plan. If I wish I was just in a better mood ain't gonna happen. But take the three seconds to smile at the mirror. Give yourself a high five like Bo Robbins tells us to, and then go out and kick ass. But that's a plan. Not a wish.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:07
Absolutely. You're right. You're right. But that is a struggle that many have. It is a struggle, that many fear. And that's something that
 
Andy Weins  09:18
what what are you afraid of? Where's this fear piece?
 
Leighann Lovely  09:21
Well, I'm not necessarily speaking to myself, it took me a long time to show up as me on a regular consistent basis. Right. There are people who fear walking into work every day and thinking I'm going to be found out because I have XYZ going on at home. Because impostor syndrome correct. And that's a real thing that people exist and but you have crit you clearly have created a culture at at your businesses. And you accept everybody for who they are. Is this what you're saying?
 
Andy Weins  09:55
100% Absolutely. Wonderful. Yeah. Easy, simple.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:02
So tell me how you created and, and have allowed people to do this at your business because this is what really truly interests me you are. And every time I've ever come in contact with you, you are you every time I see you wild, crazy, professional, all different flavors of Mr. Andy wines. You are 100% You, but You are unique in in to too many circles of people that I have come in contact with.
 
Andy Weins  10:37
Yeah, so to answer the question at the top, how do I how do I do? And how do I create that culture? It's real easy, unless it's illegal, immoral, unethical, we fucking do it. Right? And I get to be the referee on the morality, right? And the ethics here. Right? Illegal is governed by a different entity, I'm not gonna say hire but a different entity. Right? And then what's moral and what's ethical round here is is is up to the the discretion of the individuals that make up the culture. Right? I'm not the commissioner of the league. I'm the referee, so that I can solve dispute if there is such a dispute with that said, just a referee, right? I'm not the end all be all right? Alpha and Omega, I'm the referee to say, Okay, how do we allow people into our organism, right, we treat our organization like an organism, elite, living, breathing thing, so that when people come in, they can impact the culture, one of the most bullshit questions in HR is, hey, do you think you're going to be a good fit to the culture? First off, they don't know what the culture is? Because they're not there. Right? And culture is? Right? It is, it is exclusive of people that aren't in the culture, right? It's inclusive of the people in the culture. So if you're in a candidate, you don't know what the culture is, other than whatever bullshit they sell you on the website. So terrible question. Second piece is, you're not considering the what that candidate can bring to your culture. Right? Because culture is not a static, stagnant thing. It's forever changing and evolving. So the question should be, what are you going to bring to the culture of this organization? So now we flip it on its head, right? We know that organizations when treated like an organism, a living, breathing thing, all the individual components play a role in how that organism organism functions? And what do we accept culturally, I can certainly be the referee to make sure it's not illegal, immoral and unethical. But after that, let people go right, let, it's that simple beef and weird, or Don't be weird, I don't give a shit just be you. And then create a culture and what that is it accepted. If I want to be accepted, I have to accept others for being themselves. And that's it. I might not like it, but get the referee, not the judge and jury. It's different.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:57
So how would somebody handle as a company grows, obviously, cultural, like you said, the culture will evolve, it grows like an organism, organism, as you've mentioned, now, as companies grow, you start to see a shift in that now you have different departments, and different people start to influence those different departments and almost like a break of that organism becomes to how do you continue to keep those working together, almost as one yet also separate. And I'm not saying as completely separate, I'm saying that you have two different things working, but also in the same building?
 
Andy Weins  13:42
Well, because they started from the same place, right. And within the organization, especially here, when you have this table, I have one point at 10 franchises across the country. And our culture became individualistic at the site, because we didn't do enough to bring everybody together. And we didn't have a strong enough culture. So So it made us very adaptable and flexible when we out in the real world. But then we also had very different customer experiences from one to the other. So we did some things like having centralized HR centralized dispatch, so there was a consistency in that HR bucket consistency, and that and that operations bucket, but at the end of the day, the sites function very independently. And that was part of the culture. Because the way you operate a site in Texas is different than California is different than Wisconsin. And I've had businesses in all three places. And so you have to allow right you have to have a strong enough practices or procedures and all those SOPs and all that good stuff, right? So that when you do say, okay, here, here's the organism now, take it over here and plant the seed. They have that framework of the business side, but they get to develop their own culture. And you got to do check ins to make sure that culture is be consistent with the values and beliefs of the over All entity, but you've got to let it grow. And you can't, you have these two organisms that you talked about that separation, you can't make them function the same way. A G G is a prime example right now GE is going through a major shift, they're taking their three divisions that are all, like a triangle, right with the same leadership structure. And they're breaking them into three silos. Because the way that you know GE Healthcare operates is different than the other two entities. So now they're going to silo these things because it just doesn't work on top. Because there's, there's significantly different than the other two business entities, it might be to a point where you gotta separate completely. And this is a major company. And they tried doing it, where they had the, the one nucleolus controlling all but the silos did operate the same now they're breaking into three different companies. So I don't care if it's our 20 person operation here in Butler, Wisconsin, or a huge, you know, multibillion dollar organization like GE, you got to recognize, you know, at what point does the culture sort of negatively impact the business operations? Again, alignment, they got to align with each other, they have to complement each other. If they don't, you're gonna have conflict, and then that's when people leave.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:21
Absolutely. So you mentioned your business in, in Butler, Wisconsin, and I want to actually touch on that before we go any farther. So you what was your first business? First of all, let's start with that.
 
Andy Weins  16:39
It was well, I'll say it'd be there's a lot of Andes candies is probably the first business I remember, fourth grade, third or fourth grade, I sold nature's touch candy bars for a buck apiece for the Boy Scouts. And I also sold everybody else in the troop, because I branded it as Andy's candies. And I was out there hock it up, and whatever they were $1 apiece, and like 50 cents went to the Scout 50 cents, but I didn't I didn't care. And the stupid thing is I don't I can't have sugar. I can't have candy or chocolate. And I was still able to, to get out there and Hawk them was probably third or fourth grade. So that was Andy's candies. And then,
 
Leighann Lovely  17:20
of course was in fourth grade. You were born an entrepreneur.
 
Andy Weins  17:26
Oh yeah, I've been taken apart lock sets and faucets since I was five, six years old. Right when I could have a screwdriver I could I started taking stuff apart. I wasn't very good at it. But I learned the skills then that I use to this day. But on my father's company, two man crew hammer we had a PC when I was probably 10 or 11. And I learned to type on a typewriter like old school carbon copy, feed it through make sure lines up press the buttons. And so I've been I've been writing estimates, I think I learned writing on a typewriter was probably seven or eight, which now my daughter is eight and she can type like nobody's business. But like that wasn't normal for us to type. Right? We could do cursive and then we could type now the cursive was a dead thing whatever. Till a tangent but but uh, I used to type on a typewriter carbon copy proposals and, and bills for my dad. And then and then it went to the PC. I remember the first time I took a proposal and turn it into an invoice by just changing the word proposal the invoice and like, you know, quote to balance do my dad was blown away. Say What do you mean you have to retype the whole thing and my eyes changed like the two things and give it a fake number. We're good, it looks good. Looks nice. Right? And he had like actual letterheads you to feed feed the letterhead and make sure it was whatever, you know, facing the right way. So it printed it because you know that was 25 cents a piece of paper for that that letterhead. So you don't want to you know, now you've screw up approval, you redo the PDF and resend it rang it a little Docusign. Back then that was that was a quarter of 30 cents a piece of paper because it had the logo on it on that, you know, nice heavy stock paper like you know, that's where I cut my teeth, doing that shit going into Microsoft Word and just customizing it. And I remember like, the first time I did a proposal for the company clutter busters, you know, or, you know, the quote, It was like, you know, quote, 0001 So I'm like, fuck it. I'm gonna start at 100 So it was point 000101 I'm like, hell yeah, I've done 100 of these before that. You might write because you want it you know, you wanted to buy yourself some credibility. So clutter bussers back in 2009 was the first company I had and it was out of necessity. I got laid off two days before Christmas in 2008. Because you know, that whole financial crisis, right? I was I was I was Iraqi combat veteran that couldn't get a job for more than $9 an hour. When I said fuck that I'm gonna go do my own thing. So I was I was hauling scrap by the alleys in the northwest side of Milwaukee and cleaning out little ladies basements at 100 hours a trailer on the weekends. And that was that was my first business. I remember my business card I wrote serving our community since 2008. I bought my cell phone of the year, because I just you know, I did a couple of jobs in 2008. Without a name was Yeah, so 2009 We'll call it the clutter busters, which was eco friendly, clutter removal for your home and business. That was our tagline that was it. And I paid, paid, I got my 250 or whatever it was business cards from Vistaprint. And I spelled the word business wrong. So I was fucking passed. So I had to then pay for the next 250 It was like 55 hours, and I didn't have 55 hours. So you know, I had to figure that out. Right? I started my business with that, that business over the 100 hours. I spent $55. At Vistaprint, I spent 35, 40 bucks at OfficeMax getting bright green flyers and went around and put in people's doors. And yeah, it was it was terrible. It was wonderful at the same time.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:59
That's awesome. And look at you now how many businesses do you own today?
 
Andy Weins  21:06
Ah, I have four or five kinda sorta, I mean, you know, a couple of them. You know, I, I've started and stopped businesses. I've opened and closed I had a media company for about three years, I close that this year, I realized I love creating content for our businesses and for for, for us. And I love creating content for others. But I don't like to facilitate creating content for others, if that makes sense. So like, so I closed that was antidote Media Group we went on, we went hard on that for about two years. That was a lot of fun until it wasn't. And so I own it, but it's it's a dormant company. Right now. We have one large project we're finishing up to about 20 minute documentary finishing up for the VA. So we're doing that one, but then after that, I don't anticipate keeping that business running. So you know, our mainstay is camera crew junk removal. That's the business that pays the bills. And then we have the redrum Mk II, which is a side hustle at best. It's a entertainment business come in break shit, have fun. And then Young Guns, which is a passion project of mine. Those are the three main businesses. And then you know, we have an entity for our building. I'm a part where my parents we own a farm together in Mequon, I'm gonna get chickens this year. I gotta list like, I gotta, I just gotta put up my whiteboard. So I gotta let I'll announce it here first. So these are the things I'm going to do. In the next two years, I'm going to get a chicken farm going. I want to do that. I've always wanted to be a farmer. I grew up on my grandparents farm. So I'm gonna do chickens. Probably next year. For or what? What is this for me? For me for me? Okay. Yeah, so the razem slaughter. I'm Salem, Edom. So it's a chicken farmer, I want to this year I will become a licensed or certified whatever the nomenclature is. Small, small arms instructor. So I teach people right now just passively how to shoot. And so I'm not looking to make money and I, I want further training doing it. I do the military. So I just want the civilian equivalent to get myself more practical knowledge to enjoy that. And then I also want to get my pilot's license in the next 18 months. Oh, so. And again, not not like, I don't know, maybe there'll be a business. It's more over like, I want to fly a plane. So
 
Leighann Lovely  23:29
go do that. Yeah, that's, that's awesome.
 
Andy Weins  23:32
So those are three very random things farmer, you know, small arms instructor and pilot.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:39
Well, if you ever need to, I don't know fly your chickens anywhere or
 
Andy Weins  23:43
and shoot and shoot on the way. Yeah, we're good. That's it. I mean, right. And again, it's doing these things without losing focus on the mainstay, which is environmental consulting and hauling junk up out of landfill. And so again, it's about that alignment piece, right? I don't, I don't get to do those other things unless that that junk removal business is out paying the bills, right. I'm writing a book right now. I'm doing I still do keynote speaking. I have a podcast right? All those things. Those are my hobbies. My hobbies just happen to have a business aspect to them. Right. Like, we have a hobby farm right now. I just want to bring chickens on the hobby farm and then see what happens. Worst case scenario is I have a freezer full of chickens at the end of the cycle or two.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:29
I'll buy some chickens. Yeah.
 
Andy Weins  24:31
And I learned how to raise chickens in more more environmentally sound. And there's some really good practices out there and how to raise chickens, you know, organically and humanely. And that's interesting to me.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:44
Right? Mainly, and then you kill them and eat That's correct.
 
Andy Weins  24:47
100%
 
Leighann Lovely  24:51
That's, yeah, hey, and it's great that you have you know, a successful business and then you can also have, you know, side Business, possibly side businesses, you know, teaching individuals to shoot safely and something that people would enjoy. So if that turns into a business, now you have something that you can enjoy and love doing. So I mean, that's awesome. That's, it's finding a good and you don't like the word balance, but I'm gonna use it anyways, a good balance in your life to you know, work life balance and, you know, finding different things that you you know, an outlet to, you know, really enjoy, and it's never too late to go and get your pilot's license, why not? Right? So, yeah, so with all of this, you know, with every all of the different things that are going on, and I'm going to go back to this the culture at an at a company, and one of the the main things that I see happen at companies is that somebody starts up a business and it grows, it goes through an exponential growth. And as that culture organically naturally grows, the individual at the top, spends less and less time at that company. And that culture, kind of, like an organism grows on its own and kind of takes over. And so at what point or, you know, how, at as the individual at the top that owner, how do you stay plugged in to truly know what's going on, on the floor, when you've got so many other responsibilities?
 
Andy Weins  26:29
Well, I'm not on the top, let's let's, let's go back to that organism, I'm in the nucleolus. Right, and that's different right there. It's a level playing field, we all contribute to the success of the organization, some of us are more close to the nucleus than others. And that's, that because of, you know, our risk aversion or ultimately comes down to who's most liable. Those there, those that are the most to lose, and the most, again, are the nucleolus. That's just how that's that. That's how it works. And so there's a lot of things and mostly technology, right? Why why not embrace technology? So for example, my phones in my pocket, and I can feel it going off here, throughout the day today. We have an app with with our guys and I can I know every transmission that happens between our guys in the field, right? So I can tell, hey, are guys running ahead of schedule? Are they running behind schedule? What is the cadence and their voice? How are they feeling? Right? Yeah, you know what, we're just gonna run it right now. I was, I'm gonna see what these guys were talking about. But an hour ago, I can just press the button here. And this is what I do. I listen to this on my way home or throughout the day. Get a feel of how the guys are feeling on a given day. Operations. Listen, for Blizzard. I have two team members who are ready to whatever meet us at Blizzard Charlie location one was done at the Bravo. Good Capri will do. Thank you.
 
Andy Weins  27:58
So we'll things like that. I know the guy is I know who that is. I know if he's ahead of schedule. I know his demeanor. Right? I also know it's four o'clock and ESBL by 4:30 to go to bags because he plays bags at 4:30. On on Wednesdays, right? So I can I know he will have a good week or a bad week based on whether or not he gets off at 4:30. Today to go to bags. That that is it. Right? Is that simple. But I can also look at our operation software, I get a pulse for the guys, one of the best thing to do I can walk the yard, I can walk the yard, I can tell you who worked yesterday who didn't work based on how clean the yard isn't not clean. So you don't have to be I don't have to be down on the floor. I don't have to be out in the trucks 24/7 To get a feel for how things are going. And then you just do walk in talks. Hey, what's going on here? What's going on? What's what's going on there? I also use certain people's indicators. There's one guy, right. If he's pitching I just that's a good indicator that he's breathing that day because that's what he does. Right? If he wasn't pitching I'd be afraid he might not you know have any air in his in his in his lungs. But then I got another guy who drove me he's been with us it'll be five years next month. He'll been with us five years. If Jerome complains about something. It's something because drome doesn't complain it's all cash withdrawal like yesterday I saw Jerome I was I was leaving the shop he was loading up some stuff in his car my daughter was talking to him he was jovial as a Hey was been good job is that man is good is good like ABS you know, like he had nothing to say but as good it's good right? So now I know there's no so someone else comes to me right now like oh, the morale is terrible. You know, it's not a stock drone. drones that were good. But that person might be having a bad day. Right or that day might have got bad but if things are bad for days on end or weeks on end drama, let me know if I asked him if I don't ask him he won't tell me. So it's not entirely passive, but you got to know where to go to get the right information. And then also new guys run it all our existing guys know what when we get new guys hey, what do you think about the Companies so far, right? Because retention is key. And I was very pleased. You know, last week I asked one of our new guys he's like, yeah, don't feel like the new guy. Everyone's like, super cool and chill and teach me stuff. He's like, a lot of times you go to a new place people treat like shit, because you're the new guy. I'm like, yeah, no, you just make, like, you're, you're, you're making things better around here. Because you're allowing us to take on more work. Because we can, we can do more with more hands. So that's it is little indicators like that. You can't trust everything, you know, one person says all the time, but you can try. You can trust a lot of people and just have conversations. And you also have to know what is what does right look like? And and you don't know that unless you're, unless you grew up in the business, or you built the business, you don't always know I came from the franchise world. Why do you know I did junk? Well, for years, then I got into the franchise world, and I left. And a lot of franchisees, they didn't know what right was, because they were told by the franchisor. Well, right was, but they didn't know their ass from a hole in the wall. So they didn't even know these little indicators, you gotta check. And when you build your business, you know what right looks like.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:05
Interesting. And that's awesome. You know, it's, I don't want to say that it's not often that the owners will walk around because somebody in your position who has been in the thick of it, who, and somebody with your background, who knows what it's like to have $55 in their pocket and to start a business and then to be successful, they understand that it just, it's life isn't given to you, you have to work for it,
 
Andy Weins  31:34
we got to earn it every day, myself included, and that's my job.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:39
But people who who've, and I don't want to say people who've just been, you know, their life has been, you know, given to them on a silver spoon every day, have a tendency to forget that they need to walk the floor, they need to get a sense of the, you know, a feeling of How is everything going, what is going on, and then addressing those issues, head on in order to create that culture. And, and having a culture that is great, versus shifting a culture that is bad. To make it great is obviously a different thing. You're talking about, you know, a huge, but to create it from the ground up.
 
Andy Weins  32:23
You got to build it, you got to be intentional. Right. Right. And that's, that's,
 
Leighann Lovely  32:27
that's amazing, Andy that you have,
 
Andy Weins  32:29
you can't fault people from where they came from? Good, better, indifferent. Right? We definitely have, you know, if anything in this, in this country, I think of all the conflict we have, the greatest conflict we have right now is, you know, the haves and the have nots, right, those in power knows that the rest of us, right, and what he's saying in class warfare is the 1% of 1% of 1%, fighting the rest of us, you know, 99.9999%. But without getting too political here, but when it comes down to when it comes to the classes, right? It's not about where people came from, it's where you're at today. And it's the obligation of the all the leaders within the organization to establish the standards, right. And so you have somebody that doesn't recognize, hey, you got to walk the floor every day, you had to take the fucking happy hours out their office, grab their hand and walk the damn floor. And if they do it on their own accord, God bless. And if they don't you take them and you take them and you take them. And you do it until they recognize it. If they don't recognize it, you ship them on down the line and have somebody else deal with them. Right? You're right, there are people that grow up with with more or with or with less, and it is what it is. Certainly it's your job as a leader to show the standards, right? I hire a lot of people with the expectation that they're going to know more and see more than I do, and rarely does that happen. So there's a reason why I'm the one that started the company, and I'm the one that owns it, and they don't, because they don't see what I see. Right? And because I see it, it allows me to challenge them and lead them and show them what right looks like what we're where we're going to set forth that vision, right. And then it's on them to execute, right and understand the details and fill in the gaps and fill in where I'm not strong. And so it's not a question of where people are coming from it's it's an obligation of the leadership of the organization to set the tone. And the leadership fails to do it. That's on a leadership. It's not on that individual. Yeah, absolutely. We are in a world that needs and leaders and a lot of people are so afraid of being leaders that they're not
 
Leighann Lovely  34:46
absolutely. Either they're afraid of being leaders or they're not trained properly in the simple. They're simply trying to be managers and they don't want to be leaders.
 
Andy Weins  35:00
as well, those are different words, sometimes you need a manager, sometimes you need a leader, you can't just say you can't manage people. I hate that word shouldn't leading people will lead to better results and manage people, you can manage. You can manage processes, you can manage places, like we have a warehouse manager, his job is to manage the product within the warehouse, you can manage that you're going to manage it. If you want to manage people, then you're going to teach them those how and the what and monitor their activities, and you're going to own the results. And that sounds fucking terrible. And we leave it leaders leaders, set the expectation that a result, they lead the people on the people figure out how to achieve that result. And I'll make the argument. If you have 11 people in the room and one's a leader and 10 people have to figure out the how there's more collective brainpower that 10 How people and there's the the one what person, right and collectively all 11 need to know their why the organizational why, and their individual why? Once you start doing that, now you're leading, and now the leaders leading with the why, hey, this is why we need to do that. And eventually, you'll have the white leaders, and you'll have the how, you know, the the how leaders, I'm sorry. And then the white people, they'll figure out how to do it. And that's a beautiful thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:21
And we don't have enough leaders, we have enough managers that are in tears, because,
 
Andy Weins  36:26
Yeah, because because they've been been lied to for 130 years. Because our public education produces workers and managers, not leaders, and then you're told to go to college, you learn, you don't learn how to fucking lead and college.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:44
Don't take me down that path. Okay, you don't want to lead.
 
Andy Weins  36:47
I was working with students from UW Madison. And I'm like, man, they're college educated, like, You got to be not dumb to get into Madison. Right? These are Madison, and they're seniors. I started working with them in February, and they're graduating in May I'm like, these are gonna be some a high speed individuals, they could write an email. No, because no one taught them soft skills. Because our society is like hard skills, hard skills, hard skills. They didn't, didn't know how to basics, didn't know how to have a conversation that wasn't in text message.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:16
Yeah, they're taught memorization. There's grit, and now it's leadership. No,
 
Andy Weins  37:23
is that correct? No problem. I look at college, I have a bachelor's degree, my bachelor's degree says that I have an ability to learn. And I have an ability to write papers and give speeches. Those are the abilities I have. It doesn't matter what I wrote the speeches on, it doesn't matter. The research I did, it was the fact that I was able to take a problem and write a paper and present a logical argument. That's what I've done. All the other stuff is BS, because it forever changing and evolves. And you can learn it all on University of YouTube for a lot cheaper than that going to college. College has failed people. And this notion of participation trophies is fucking failed people, our society and I've been in the military 18 fucking years, and better the world. And you're right, that the monopoly I have is, I have no problem taking chances and saying what's on my mind, right? A lot of people don't have that. And they don't want to leave. They just and the problem we have even more now is we have people that don't want to follow. Because you have three options in life and only three everything in this role. I break down the three, right? You can lead you can follow are you getting the fucking way? And we have a lot of getting the fucking way people right now. Okay, so if you're not a leader, and you're not following, guess what bucket or it
 
Leighann Lovely  38:54
doesn't leave a lot of other buckets there.
 
Andy Weins  38:57
There's no other buckets, right, that's it. Because even with me, right? If someone walks into the hey, this what we're doing, I'm like, okay, hey, Eddie, shut up trying to follow. Let's go. Right. In order to be a good leader, you got to be a great follower first, right? We're out when I have failed as a leader in the past. It's because I didn't recognize the needs of the follower. I put my needs before there's servant leadership is is the leadership. It's not about you. It's about serving the people at all aspects. Right. Even within the company, you know, like, we've talked about this in the past, there's only four people you serve. The only four people that matter. And, in organizations get this wrong all the time. There's only four people you serve. Once you recognize that you serve four, and they're not equal, but you you serve them fairly, not equally. So here are the four people you serve your customers, your vendors, your Your investors and your employees, nobody else matters.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:07
And I truly believe that one of the the first steps to becoming an amazing leader is humility, until you have truly accepted humility, you will never become an amazing leader. And there are too many people out there that are, are too self centered and too high in themselves to be able to accept that. And that will always keep them in the manager category.
 
Andy Weins  40:33
Yeah, because they're going to be humble enough to recognize that you don't have it all. It takes a team, right. But then the difference between a manager and a leader at that point is you also have to be proud enough, not pride, right, but proud enough to stand up for yourself. And it's the obligation of the organization to have an environment that encourages that. So I worked for Fortune 500 companies where my ideas weren't well received. And they didn't want original ideas. They just wanted you to follow their system. Well, it's like you're holding me accountable for the results, which are not allowing me to change the actions. Well, then why was not I'm just managing the actions, the results, I have no control over. Right? So I'm just mad. Right? So you have to be proud enough or whatever the word is chutzpah, intelligence, whatever, to take some calculated risks, you might lose your job. Right, go back to that nucleus, because right? Those the rest of most have the most to gain or lose,
 
Leighann Lovely  41:38
Right? And FYI, if you do this, you may lose your job. But but you know, once
 
Andy Weins  41:43
you start with, let's start with what's the worst that can happen? Okay, you can lose your job. Is that it? The fuck over yourself, right? Or do you? Or do you want to die a slow death? 20 years of hating your job? Because you chose not to speak up? Or we're not allowed to? Yeah, you are, you might get fired.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:03
I love that. But you know, what your your I have worked for a large company, I specifically went to work for a smaller company, because they were holding me accountable for results. But I was saying, but your systems not working. And they're saying, but you need to follow the rules. Okay, I'm going to leave, because either I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and you're gonna fire me or I'm going to leave gracefully, completely agree with everything that you are, are saying, but we are coming to time. And I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to ask you a couple of other questions First, if if somebody wanted to take out their frustration at their job that they hate right now, and they're stuck at? Where would they be able to come to the rage room and
 
Andy Weins  42:52
Rage Room MKE in Butler, Wisconsin, that's it. Rage Room, M K E, Google it, you'll find it, it's that simple
 
Leighann Lovely  43:00
Andy it'll be in the show notes. But Andy, I have a question of the season. This is, you know, you have taken the opportunity to launch Season Two with me episode one, I really appreciate that. So this is the question that I will be asking everybody this season. So you ready for this? Girl? If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice? When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?
 
Andy Weins  43:30
I'd say second grade ish, first grade ish. Back when I cared about what other people thought about me, right back, back when you're, you're not a kid and you're starting to morph into Oh, there's a world around you. And you're not just free, right? And you're getting picked on and bullied and questioned. And obviously you want to fit in with everybody else. And I'll give the same advice I give everybody else and this is the life advice. I came up actually last week at a young man's event I came up with his life advice. And it's not PC but that's for the PC police. So here's the life advice. I would I would tell that kid so as it's called second grade, I had a great teacher in secondary Mrs gets in second grade. I think that seems like a very logical time My daughter just graduated second grade. So I'm like, You know what, that's that's an age where I can still remember some of the things that happen. So here's the advice I'd give that kid and that's the advice I give everybody and this is advice that I also have to remember life is boiled down to the going back to three three phrases have four words each 12 words that this is what I'm living by now. Do the fucking thing. Tell the fucking world shut the fuck up.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:47
And you think that that your younger self would understand what that meant?
 
Andy Weins  44:55
Yeah, because I didn't do the thing. Right I was busy. I was busy telling the world who I was, you know, was or wasn't going to be. And and then, and then I, I felt the need to respond to everybody for everything. Right? If I had just been me, right, if you're just you, no one can stop you. No one can do it better than you. So just you do you do you do the thing, right? Be proud of who you are be like, Hey, I'm Andy, this what I'm doing. You don't like it? That's on you. That's a huge problem, right? I'm a big fan of saying it's a huge problem. Because people come to me with problems well as a you problem. And then walk away. Right? Because if you want to solve everybody's problems, you're gonna be running your mouth and solving other people's problems on your own. Right when the challenges people have is they don't know when to shut up, myself included. So that's what I work on now. Right? Tell the world. But then if someone doesn't like it sounds good. Right? There's people that if they've made it made it this far in the episode of the podcast, they might not agree with it, I have to say it's fine. Least you're listening. Right? If you want to have civil discourse, we can certainly have it. But and maybe I can learn something from you. Absolutely. But But after that, go butcher business.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:23
I think that if we were all are 100% our authentic self all the time, not everybody. Let me just rephrase. Not everybody. There are a lot of assholes out there. And, you know, just put them on an island somewhere and but if the majority of us were just all our authentic selves, and we'd get over it already, I think that there would be a hell of a lot more work getting done. shit happening every day. And you know, happy people walking around. It's it's as simple as that. It took
 
Andy Weins  47:00
but let the assholes be assholes. Because of their their true selves, they'll get found out.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:06
You're right. You're right. And, hey, those circles that I hang out and it is pretty obvious, pretty quick, who they are.
 
Andy Weins  47:17
And their voice is just as important as our voice. Right? The goal is with a freedom of speech. Right? The best ideas come to the top. Yep. I rather have the hassle speaking because they're assholes either way, but at least I know they're there their agenda? I'll take I'll take that over. You don't know who you can trust? Absolutely. So
 
Leighann Lovely  47:38
Well, Andy, this has been, as always an enlightening conversation. I always jumped at the chance to sit down and have a conversation with you. Each time I always walk away with, you know, some gold nugget of information that I know that I can use. So I do appreciate taking the time it's are you taking the time, it's always fun. It's always been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
 
Andy Weins  48:03
Thank you.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:05
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyweins/
 
Rage Room MKE - https://www.rageroommke.com/
 
Camo Crew (Junk Removal) - https://www.camocrew.us/
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, business, culture, andy, leaders, organism, years, company, fucking, day, chickens, life, world, organization, job, self awareness, running, referee, walk, person

Episode 24 - Season 1 Finale

Thank you again for all the fantastic guests that participated in season 1 of Lets Talk HR – Humanizing the Conversation
I have put together a recap of some of the great moments from this season so I could share them again. I hope you enjoy!
Please take a listen to the moments I shared with #Jonathan Heider, #Betsy Clark, #Ashley Podzius, #AJ Kruse, #Jamie White, #Brian Herczeg, #Dylan Sessler, #Roger Wolkoff, #Denise Schamems, #Chelsea Budde, #Teri Kerr, #Hanna Paul, #Kevin White, #Eli Rivera, #Ruben Gaona
We will be back in a couple of weeks for an all-star lineup in Season 2!!

Episode 23 - Your Mindset Matters! - Betsy Clark

Speaker, coach, artist and all-around amazing inspiration. Betsy is also a seasoned business owner and understands business and life. If you are looking for tips on self-discovery this may be the person to take a listen to. She focuses on Mindset and accessing your brilliance.   
 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:05
I've been so excited to have this conversation with Betsy Clark. She's just an amazing woman. Betsy has been a successful entrepreneur for 43 years her mission is to help women let go of feelings less than or who are tired with struggling you have done the work yet you cannot identify or access your brilliance Betsy breathes life into women's businesses and helps them leverage or monetize what's right with them supporting women to live more fully focusing on what they need to quiet their mind chatter. So they can hear the whispers of their heart living out her tagline your mindset matters. Her current business as a mindset Chaplin transformation partner parallels her work in interior design, it just expresses itself differently. Previously, she created beauty with paint. Now she uses words, Betsy supports women to find their voice communicate their value, and stop doubting themselves so that they can flourish in both life and business. She encourages, empowers and equips women to step into their brilliance, and be a leader worth following. Betsy has lived in Colorado Springs for the past 30 years, with her husband and dogs. She and Archie are truly happy campers. They travel frequently in their truck camper to play with their kids and grandkids to soak up the beauty of Colorado and the Wild West.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:42
Betsy I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. I've had the opportunity to talk with you previously. And wow, I'm just very excited. So thank you for coming on and talking with me today.
 
Betsy Clark  02:53
Thank you, I am so excited. I've just been out of town and I I really rearranged it so that I could be here with you. And I'm really looking forward to our time together.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:04
Yeah, and you travel quite a bit.
 
Betsy Clark  03:07
I do I do COVID sort of cramp my style. But I have been traveling a bit, I am bound to go out and get this message out about how you can show up as your best self and show up authentically and really understand what's right with you. Instead of that, ah, what's wrong with me. Yeah, how can we shift that?
 
Leighann Lovely  03:27
Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about yourself, you know, where, where? Where is this message developed? And, you know, tell me, you know, a little bit more about your passions. So,
 
Betsy Clark  03:38
I've been an entrepreneur for over 43 years, I started when I was four. And I bought a business when I was 23 years old, I bought a franchise in an industry that didn't really exist at the time. And it was called weight loss. And so you can tell I'm older than dirt, and this was in the 70s. And so I was a diet coach. And then I left that business because I sold my business because I got pregnant realized I couldn't work at the level I was working at with little infants. And then my husband and I went into interior design. We did specialty wall finishes and wood finishes. So I became a color coach. So you're starting to hear that there are some commonalities, and I've been an athlete and an athletic coach. So I had an accident, and I realized I couldn't do Interior Design anymore and be on scaffold that was two storeys high. And I walked away from the family business and I didn't know what I was going to do. I thought, wow, I have to reinvent myself. Well, I have learned since then we don't reinvent ourselves. We reinvest in ourselves, and it's just another chapter in a way that's authentic to who we are and So my friend and I were walking and I said, you know, I don't really know what I want to do. I'm not sure what this next chapter is. And she said, Okay, and this is the power of a powerful question. She said, Betsy, what's your favorite nickname? Well, I got the Rolodex going, Okay, it's sugar blossom. It's honey, pot pie. It's all but no, it's none of those words, what's my favorite nickname? My favorite nickname is coach. And she said, well, then yeah, you're gonna be a coach. And it was that simple. It was that simple. So my whole life, I've been a coach, and I needed a community and someone to reflect back to me, this is how you show up, this is who you be. And that's why I'm so passionate about what I do. We were never designed to do life alone. We need each other. And so that's what I am, I am a support to women in business. And I'm the queen of perspective giving. And so that's who I am and what I do.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:01
That's awesome. And, know it's, you know, I've talked to so many people throughout this, you know, this journey of podcasting. And the one thing that is consistent through every time I've, you know, talked with somebody on, you know, what was the a pivotal moment, or what was the, you know, this or that, how did you decide, and it's, it's never Oh, I was sitting alone, and I was staring at this, it's always, I had a conversation with something, somebody, and they made a suggestion, or they had a comment, or they it's, it's never, I was, you know, alone. It's always, nope, it is never, and it's, it's consistent through every single person I have spoken with. And it is 100% true to exactly what you just said, we don't go it alone. And even when you decided what you wanted to do, yes, it was your decision. You know, we it's everything is ultimately comes down to your, you know, your choice in the directions that you go in this and that, but it always comes from a conversation, or a suggestion, or a simple, you know, communication. And often it comes from, you know, an organic conversation over coffee, or over a glass of wine or over food or. And that's, that is just, it's so amazing, amazing. And that's the reason that coaches are so powerful for so many of us, because being able to sit down with somebody and say, Okay, I have all of these ideas swirling through my head, or I want to do something, but I just can't figure it out. Somebody like you, who is now what I think it's for 12 years now you have been that what the the founder, the coach of coach to strengths. Yes. And that is what you, you help you help people do that you help them love a lot. So tell me a little bit more about specifically as to how that all started in the world when of when it began.
 
Betsy Clark  08:13
And it began. So to go back to your point about we've never done it alone. It is Brene Brown has this great quote, We are hard wired for connection. And I love that I think that speaks to what you're talking about. We have to do life in community and coming out of this pandemic and being isolated, has really gotten people. I think some of us have lost our social chops and our community chops. And we are so anxious to get back into community and to be meeting belly to belly face to face. And so I think that's an important piece that speaks to why I do what I do. I I am the youngest of four. I come from a very close knit family and all that sort of stuff. And I guess I was the youngest everybody else was so much more advanced. And I was always comparing myself to everybody else, which is a setup. Because they were older, they were more mature, they had more skills. But I really held myself back because I was subjected to the mind monkeys that were telling me I wasn't enough. I never measure up. You're just like all that negative self talk. And so when you see someone who is a coach and you see them pick their modality, they're really telling you a lot about themselves because the journey I have been on has been since I was 16 years old. You know who in their right mind. Read Psycho Cybernetics at age 16. Well, I did because I knew that it all began with my mind you So I pitched myself as a mindset chaplain to thinking, What the heck is a mindset chaplain? What? What is that? Right? Did that poke? Did that go through your head? Like, what you talking about?
 
Leighann Lovely  10:13
Yes, yes, absolutely. And in your in your bio, you know, I kind of introduced you as, mindset chaplain, I believe. And it's, yes, I want to dive into what what is that?
 
Betsy Clark  10:28
Okay, so here's what I love is marrying the head to the heart, so that you're integrated so that you follow your heart and use your head. And you trust your gut. Because that's integrated, that's you showing up in an integrated fashion not divided, you have clarity, because you understand what your strengths are, what your values are, what your purpose is, what your mission is, you know, those kinds of things. So how do we marry all those things? Because some of us, you know, all we do is we live in our head. Or we're all heart. And we can't think or self out of a paper or wet paper bag, right? And other people wearing debt. What's that? Isn't that just below my stomach? Any mic? We're disconnected, but think about can you imagine if you had all three of those playing well together?
 
Leighann Lovely  11:28
Right? I mean, you're absolutely. If you're only leading with your heart, you're, not going to be able to logically put things together. If you're only leading with your head, you're going to lose the empathy, you're going to lose the. And I think that a lot of businesses, that's what they're lacking, right? Right, the empathy piece, it's, it's becomes too logical. And everybody in the business then becomes a number. Right? You have to have you have to have a mix of of, I'm sorry, the third one. They've got the guts. And I guess that's the one that's that's the one that I struggle a little bit with here. So
 
Betsy Clark  12:19
yeah, well, okay, so here, here's the thing is I lost my thought about that. Why have you had me? Well, what are you struggling with? You know, here's the thing is that God is your intuition. Right. One of the reasons I became a Gallup certified strengths coach was, I was afraid that I was going to be too squishy. Because when I started as a coach 15 years ago, took me a couple of years to get my chops up to start a business. Everything was so squishy, and there wasn't the certification. There weren't any guidelines that we had to follow. And it's like, what are you doing? You're just selling air? And so yeah, that would be great. I get all these people that follow their heart, but how do you get it actionable? How do you how do you deliver on that? And so I wanted something that was backed by science. And so this assessment looks at what your strengths are, what's right with you? Because because I came from a place of living in comparison, I could tell you there is a list this one of what was wrong with me, because I never measured up to anybody else. But no one ever sat me down and said Pat's you know, you know, you're really strong in in strategic you. You've got this Rolodex going in your head, you come up with options, with your hands tied behind your back. But here's the dilemma. Again, here's the thing is, because I think this way, I make a huge assumption that you think that way to where we are right? Yes. Yes, we all think everybody thinks the way we do. That's why we have goat rodeos when we miscommunicate because we think we don't you think that way? What do you mean, you don't understand me?
 
Leighann Lovely  14:14
This is every fight that I've ever had with my husband. I'm like, wait, what do you what do you mean, you weren't thinking the same way? I was thinking and he's going, What are you talking about? And I'm like, Oh, right. This is human nature.
 
Betsy Clark  14:26
Right! Bingo.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:28
But we're all wired completely different.
 
Betsy Clark  14:31
I mean, like one in 11 million has the same strengths. lineup that I do, like one in 11 million. Are you kidding me? No wondering miscommunicate all the time. I'm making assumptions. There's something called a suicide. Ca with that, right? When we make assumptions and we kill communication, we kill community. We kill connection because I guess You know what I mean? And then I continue the conversation. And I think what's wrong with Leanne? Which she Oh, well, you know, all that stuff. I'm assuming things that aren't accurate.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:10
And how do you fix this? How do you go into a conference? So you and I are sitting down and we're talking about something and I am making this as... What did you call it?
 
Betsy Clark  15:20
Assumicide? Assumicide kills intimacy? It kills intimacy.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:24
Right. So you and I are sitting down, we're having a conversation, I am assuming this assumicide, I'm creating a assumicide. Am I using that properly? Okay.
 
Betsy Clark  15:33
Yep. Yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:35
How do you at what point do you sit back and go, Wait a second. I need to clarify. I mean, is how do you how do you fix it? Because, again, at what point in my brain Am I gonna go wait a second? I don't think she's getting it.
 
Betsy Clark  15:52
It's a perfect time to say, Wait a second. That's trusting your gut, my friend. Yes. That's trusting your gut. Okay. What are you discerning what? What is your gut telling you? Something's not not jiving here, right. And so then you stop and ask, wait, am I communicating when I think I'm communicating? Tell me what you heard me say. Because I have a sense that we're not, we're not on the same wavelength here. See, that's why I love strengths. Because if I got 10 backs for every time, one of my clients over the last 1214 years is said, that's a wait, doesn't everybody think that way? And I, I get to be the one that says no, they don't see, here's, here's an example. My I'm high in strategic, my husband is high in context, or I'm high in activator. So I'm like an action girl. I jumped in, I think, then I, then I Oh, huh. How do I get here? My husband? I'm like, I'm a I'm a jack rabbit. Right? My husband is high in context. And he is he has to look at the history of the past, he has to check in where he is in the future. And right now, and what does that mean for the future? Right. So he does this timeline. So we slow as molasses. So we're in the midst of getting wood floors in our living room? Well, I had this great idea four years ago, let's put wood floors in the living room. Well, he had to think about it. And his first reaction was no baths, we can't do that. So I finally, you know, after I'd gone through my strength training became a certified coach. I said, Why are you always saying no to me? Do you not trust me? And he said, Wait, what? Why would you ask me that? And I said, because every time I ask you something, your first reaction is no. So I went through the Gallup training, I understood what context meant versus activator. Here's the way we changed it. Now I say, you know, I'm considering this, I'm considering getting wood floors in our living room. And it's going to probably cost X amount of dollars. And I think the reason we should do this, because we have grandbabies, and we don't want them to be on gross carpet, right? Why don't you consider that and then get back to me. Interesting. I gotta tell you, now, that's the way I get anything to move a little bit faster, and have his buy in, I'm not manipulating its buy in. And I shared this story from stage and this woman came up and she said, that's the most offensive thing I've ever heard. Oh, boy, what did you said you manipulated your husband? I said, No. Well, maybe I did. Let me ask him. So I called I, I just worked with them. I worked with his context and how he thinks, and I said, Archie, did you feel manipulated? He said, No, I felt known.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:12
And I've I've heard so I believe that everybody needs to one way or another be managed. My whole life. My Dad has figured out how do I manage my daughter, right? My daughter has bipolar disorder. She understands and sees the world different. Now, I knowingly at this point in my life. I'm 41 years old, I was diagnosed at 20 years old. I knowingly understand that there are certain situations in my past that I remember wrong. I don't remember that. I don't remember them right now. I remember them. And I submit to the fact that I was a healthy brain experience. mincing situation. And now I have an unhealthy memory of that situation. Correct. So my dad and I have openly had conversations with Leanne, I've, I figured out how to manage you appropriately to get you to do what needed to be done while you were still in a very unhealthy situation. Correct. That was that there was not manipulation happening. There was not, it was a management of how can I get her to a place of health, right? So let's suggest things that she needs to do knowing that if I tell her she has to do it, she'll have a negative reaction. People manage people all the time. I think in the same situation, you've you figured out your husband's style, and you're not manipulating you're in a way of managing his personality type. And in turn, I'm sure that he manages yours because my husband, I'm a jackrabbit, my husband says, Hey, I think that we need to do this. And I go, okay, and I go do it. And he goes, I didn't mean that you needed to do it now. And I'm like, oh, oh, why not do it. Now I have time. Like, if it needs to be done, I'm an action orientated person. That's period. And I know, it is a great thing to be when you are a salesperson that needs to get, you know, sales happening, right? It is a very bad thing to be when you are a wife, to a husband, who is the opposite. Because it drives him insane. And I and I love him to death. But I know that I drive him crazy in certain aspects. Now, on the flip side of that, I'll say to him, the fan in the bathroom is broken. And it takes a couple of weeks for that fan to be replaced. For me, I'm like, Oh, the fan is broken. Okay, let me run to Menards I'll get a new one and replace it. That's not how he works. Because it's just it's just not his brain. You know, if I, when I hear something, I go, okay, needs to be done needs to be read. But sometimes it's to the detriment, right? Right. My daughter needs attention right now she wants to play and I'm, I'm on the mission of, oh, I need to go fix this. I need to go fix this. And my husband is going, what do you do? Go play with your daughter? Oh, right. Yeah, of course, I'm in the middle of doing something else. So he manages me where he won't tell me that something needs to be done. He'll tell me when he knows that I have time to do it. Because he knows that the minute I know. I go do it. Now. Is that manipulation?
 
Betsy Clark  22:56
I don't think so.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:58
No, I don't I do not think that it is manipulation. Anyway, manipulation would be when I think of manipulation, I think that it's something that you're doing, get someone to do something that they otherwise would not do.
 
Betsy Clark  23:12
Right? Right, for your gain
 
Leighann Lovely  23:15
For your gain, Correct. But when you understand the strengths and other people's personality, or the weaknesses, and other people's personalities, it's okay to help them either plan those strengths, or be better at those weaknesses, right?
 
Betsy Clark  23:35
Or, to delegate. What is not in their strong suit. See that, to me is where teamwork, and we're getting back to how we started this conversation. So if you look at your top five strengths, and they're like a star right here, your top five strengths, and I got mine, instead of trying to be a well rounded individual, because we've been told we need to be a well rounded individual. What happens is we, you know, like we're always defensive, and we're kind of like in this posture, because we're not doing stuff Well, right. But what happens if you're five strengths, and my five strings really work in concert, we come like this, like cogs of a wheel, and we move a bigger thing, and you're shining in your brilliance and I'm shining in my brilliance, we can move a much bigger thing than trying to squeeze the life out of something and squeeze a flow out of it because we should be able to do this. And I'm so sick and tired of women shitting all over themselves. I should do this. I should do that. You know what? Delegate it, right? Delegate it. Use your strengths and what your area of genius and brilliance is. And make the money and make the end pack that you can there because when I start, you know, squeezing down the life force of everything I do, I'm blocking a blessing. Because there's someone like I, my assistant, she loves doing my books, she loves my numbers, she loves the little, you know, dotting the I's and crossing the t's. I say, God love you go do it, girl. Good. Anya, I need that because I need to be coaching, I need to be writing, I need to be out speaking, not doing those things that I'm not fashion for. I understand my business, I understand what my numbers are. I haven't abdicated understanding or control of those things. But I don't focus on them. Because my strengths are very different than her strengths. Does that make sense to you?
 
Leighann Lovely  25:55
Absolutely. And it's something went off in my head, something that my dad said to me, and I refer to my debt, my dad was my greatest is my greatest mentor that I have ever had my hero really, and will forever be brilliant businessman ran an office of 60 agents in the real estate industry for 6040, you know, went up and down for for many, you know, 40 years. And one of the things that he said to me was you don't have to be great at everything, you just have to be smart enough to hire somebody who could or can be great at doing what you're not good at. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, if I ever own my own business, or I ever get to a point where I need somebody, you know, and that's something that I think a lot of business owners, or a lot of small business owners don't realize that once you get to that thresholds, you know, you can delegate it out, you don't have to hold it all close to the chest that if you want to be able to level up, there's that point at which you have to let go. Or you're never going to grow. Right. Right. So It completely makes sense. You know, play to your strengths. And again, this also comes back to if you are really strong at something, do we do we should we be out there working on our weaknesses? Or should we just play to our strengths?
 
Betsy Clark  27:20
Oh I got an answer for that, when so. So here's the thing. When we are working on our strengths, it's counterintuitive. I feel like we manage our strengths to go back and use your word. But when we try and fix our weaknesses, we get into that fixing mentality. And the truth of the matter is, in my humble opinion, the only thing that needs to be fixed are stray cats and dogs, people do not need to be fixed.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:50
And that really goes and falls in line with what I've grown up thinking which is play to your strengths.
 
Betsy Clark  27:58
Right and, and so here's the thing is there's there's a continuum of your strengths, you can be immature in your strengths, and you can be very mature. And so I show my clients what that can look like. So if you use a scale of one to 10, and the tipping point would be 5.6. If you use that, that measure, you check in and you say okay, I'm high and strategic, am I so over strategic that I'm getting into, you know, paralysis, analysis, paralysis, and I'm strategizing too much I'm not acting, that would be strategic. That's probably immature and you know, not disciplined. So, teaching my clients what that spectrum looks like, you can check in and say, Oh, on a scale of one to 10 strategic is running the show, and she's running it at about a 3.5. How do I take it from a 3.5 and move that to a 5.6. So I get to the tipping point. So strategic is really a beautiful strength and I can leverage the credit out of it to get the results that we longed for. So I'm not saying that your strengths are going to be the end all there's going to be a variation in that but what I do is I teach people to look at their top five strengths like an amplifier, you know, I don't know if you remember stereos and amplifiers and turntables and all that sort of stuff. I'm dating myself that shows you how old I am.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:38
No, no, you right now in the other room in my house. I have all of that equipment, my husbands a DJ.
 
Betsy Clark  29:48
okay, but you get it. Okay. So think about that. There are five knobs on that amplifier. If you think about that as being your strengths, amplifier. It amplifies your strengths, right? So that it's juicy goodness coming out of you, right. But your your husband being a DJ doesn't just blast everything up to a tan. It's nuanced. You have to, you know, you have to adjust for the song for the environment for the occasion for whatever mean, it's not everything like Spinal Tap the movie that mockumentary everything's in 11. But it's dialing. So if I'm going in, and I'm going to make a report to board members, I'm going to nuance my strengths differently than if I'm going out to a happy hour with my girlfriends. Right? Right. So we're not just a one trick pony that just comes with everything to attend. It's learning the nuances and how to leverage yourself and be to be effective, and to be integrated. That makes sense to you.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:02
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's wild. I was having a conversation with somebody, actually, earlier today. And he asked me, he said to me, what do you think about people being promoted? And then failing? So somebody, for instance, and the conversation kind of went like this, a sales professional or a producer, who is just outstanding in their role, and then being promoted and failing? And why is that happening? And you know, my answer was, well, often we find our greatest strengths, and we enter into that field. And people see, you know, and I'm speaking from a salespersons point of view, and people see that, wow, they are so great at selling awesome at selling. But then somebody assumes that because they're so great at it, they would have the ability to train or teach or lead. But that's an assumption, based on the fact that they're capable of doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they're capable of leading or training or showing others. Right. Right. So I guess, you know, my follow up to that is how, how do we identify the strengths in those individuals? How do you identify the leaders?
 
Betsy Clark  32:31
So So I think that there are two separate things going on here, you there's the Strengths Assessment, and I would advocate that you work with a coach because it just it's a report on a piece of paper, how many times I've heard people say, Oh, I took that StrengthsFinder thing. And if they got it all wrong? Well, it's because you don't understand the meaning of the words and the training that goes with it to excavate the, the juicy goodness within the report. But there's another thing and and I'm reading a great book, it's called trust and inspire by Stephen Covey. And he supports what gallops training is on being a leader worth following. And that's really what I teach in my inner circle is I teach women how to be a leader worth following. Because here's the deal. Just because you self proclaim yourself a leader doesn't mean you're a leader. And it doesn't mean you're a good leader. Because in order to be a leader, you need to have followers, right. And most of us don't have followers. So here's the way I look at this as if it's you, our understanding of ourselves and how we think impacts every aspect of our life. So if you don't really understand what your superpowers are, and what your strengths are, you're just kind of grabbing it saying, Oh, well, that, that sounds good. We don't internalize it and saying, Hmm, how's that going to impact me? And can I be effective in that? So I worked with clients and I have them just sort of that that inner itch of inadequacy and not enoughness. We just settle that and we talk about, you know, when access your inner swagger all what you bring to the table and understand what you need in order for you to be sustainable, and to be effective going forward. So we kind of get that your your itchiness about, am I or am I not out of the equation that settled? But then we talk about what are the things your followers need? Because, you know, here's the deal. Our leaders have been in control and command and they intimidate they yell, they tell us what to do all that sort of stuff. And we need a new kind of leader now And research shows that we need to have four pillars when we lead and it's about our Our followers, we need trust. We need compassion, we need hope. And we need stability. And this is research way before the pandemic. And if we ever needed those four attributes and characteristics, we need them now. And, and to inspire people to step into their potential trust is so necessary for us to innovate. Because how we do business now is very different from how we did business even three years ago. And so I am on a mission to help women step up into leadership, and to be authentic, really good leader just gonna say something else. Really good leaders and all their leadership. I mean, here's the thing is I, I have these Grace cards, which I will make available if anybody wants them. But it's how to leave power with grace, or leaves with grace. I mean, grace is a very big thing. It is so winsome and compelling. And it lets people we know, know that they are seen, they are known and they are heard, we need grace. More than anything business, we need grace and leadership. And the time is now and can you tell I'm starting to sweat over here, I'm getting excited.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:29
Oh, it's hands down, absolutely, we need, it's never been more important for people to feel like they've been heard, feel like they've been seen. And for people to actually go into a company and feel like they are not a number feel like they are appreciated. I don't understand how companies don't get that if you could create an environment in which you go to work, employees feel empowered, they feel like they are part of something greater than just walking in and creating a widget, it doesn't have to be glamorous, if you more than ever, people want a purpose. And it doesn't. For some, it doesn't matter what that purpose looks like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if their purpose is making. Like I said, widgets, if they feel like that purpose is making that company great. And making you know, the organization do well. And they feel that love coming from the top down. And they see the actual managers and they see the higher ups walking around and telling them thank you for doing a great job, that company is going to be the one that actually flourishes, they're not going to have the turnover rate that, you know, some of these organizations out there, and they're not going to be coming to me going man, why can't we keep people on the floor? Um, you know, and I feel sometimes like, like, I want to hit him over the head and be like, Why do you think you have? There are some companies out there where I will mention it to a candidate and they'll go, oh, I don't want to work there. And I'm like, why? Well, in our industry that is known as being the worst place to work, I would never go and work there. And I want to go to that company and be like, Do you Do you know what your reputation is? I mean, do you have any idea what your reputation is. And as a as a company, if you get that reputation, and everybody who is in your industry knows you as the shittiest place to work, you're done. You're never going to be able to employ great people, you're going to get the bottom of the barrel, and it's going to take forever for you to dig out of that. You at that point become you're at risk of, of never bouncing back. It What do they say? It takes one bad review, to spread like wildfire. You know, everybody loves to like the bad reviews. You could you could destroy your reputation and not have enough employees working at your organization. If you continue to treat your people like shit. Yes, but if you go when you start treating your people great, and everybody's talking about oh, yeah, I love working there. It's it's an awesome place. Does it spread as fast? No, it does not. Because again, like I said, everybody loves to spread crappy news for some reason. Yeah. But you become the place that everybody wants to work at. And you continue to keep that reputation going because you're treating your people great. You're you're going to have a happy, healthy workforce that doesn't want to go anywhere. And you're going to do great in this marketplace. I just as somebody who has been in the industry as long as I have been in the industry, in staffing and in HR, I don't understand why, you know, companies don't get that, especially the smaller, you know, midsize organizations, it's like, Come on, get your shit together, and start treating them like and I know paying the highest wages, and I'm going on a complete and total rant. But this is this is where my passion is, start treating your people, you may not be able to pay the highest wages, but start paying your your people the best you can offer some, you know, insurance, and if you can't afford insurance, then offer them you know, a little stipend, there are new plans out there where you can put you know, it's like an HSA. Except it's not I can't remember what it's called. But I learned about it just recently, where they you know, you can give them money towards an insurance plan, have outings, again, get togethers, have the upper management, and this is extremely important. Upper management needs to be there, they need to walk the floor, they need to talk to their employees, they need to show their face. Because those employees who are working floor who are doing the most important thing for your company, which is making your products, right, they pretty much look at you as the guy who's driving the you know, the really expensive car in the parking lot, that doesn't give a shit about you. Right. And if you're not present, that's what they think about you.
 
Betsy Clark  41:21
Well, and so I think that goes back to the four pillars they need, your employees need to trust you. They need to know that you have compassion. You know what? My kid got COVID in I can't come to work for a week. Okay, let we're going to work around this. I mean, I know that there are boundaries and their policies and procedures and all that stuff. There has to be compassion, you know, maybe you create a meal train for that employee for a week. I mean, what does it cost you? Not much, and what it returns the return on that investment is priceless. What about, you know, stability, you know that you're gonna have a job when you come back? What about hope it's painting, things are gonna get better in the future. And you can trust that. I mean, at the end of the day, we're talking about culture. And we're talking about how to inspire, okay, the Latin root of that means to breathe life into. So walking the floor, and knowing the people on the floors name that breathes life into them, and it gives them hope it gives them purpose, it gets to Hey, I know why I'm doing this. Because the head guy knows that my kid just had COVID. And he was the one that or he was the one who okayed the meal train. I mean, like, I know, this sounds really stupid. And, and that's what you're missing the point. But these are the kinds of things that change the culture that bring people to work every day with a benefit mindset, instead of a negative mindset that, that one bad apple can ruin a whole department. When you have a benefit mindset. It's a win win. mindset. Everybody wins. Right? And that's how you make any impact.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:23
Yeah, absolutely. And I have, I've walked into amazing companies that I mean, you walk in, and they have state of the art that they have a professional chef that cooks lunch every single day for their employees. And that's included, it's free. You walk into an org, and this was a small company, I'm not talking about like a monster company I'm talking about this is not a really large and I'm like, seriously, I'm gonna come work here. It was like professionally made meal fresh every day. And it's in it's paid for and the employees can come in, they get their meal, they but there are different ways that you can show your appreciation, investing back in your business in small ways investing actually, in your people. Again, I don't know how many times I can say it, and how many times you can say it, I can say until I'm blue in the face. The greatest asset in any company is your people, your people. And time and time again, I see companies who are cutting every corner, cutting every expense when it comes to their employees. I'm like what do you what are you doing? You're shooting yourself in the foot that wheeling you or you're making it so that your your company cannot produce or cannot get the the product out the door, which means that you're going to have to have people working overtime, you're going to burn out your current staff and they're gonna leave
 
Betsy Clark  44:49
87% of the people who leave their job, leave because they can't work with their manager.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:57
Right. And that's it Leadership Training, put your employees through leadership training, put your son into a coach. So this is all circling back to what you do and what more companies absolutely need. Because you're right, you're absolutely right. And you know what there I have left companies, not because I did not adore the company, the upper management, I've had great relationships that. But when it came to my direct manager, I had no choice I had to go. And and even though I stayed beyond my time, and I tried to work and I tried to make it work, it came down to, there was one bad apple, one bad manager that just made made my life miserable, or made the lives of other people miserable. And the fact that a lot of companies don't even do exit interviews anymore. You're not even attempting to fix it.
 
Betsy Clark  46:01
Right? You're so but here, this, this whole thing, what we're talking about is trust. It's trust, right? You know, Stephen Covey did another book, The Speed of Trust, and when trust is high, costs go down, and efficiency goes up, when trust is low, costs go up and production goes down. And the truth of the matter is, the teams that have to always be talking about trust, are the teams that don't have trust, if you're on a team that, that they you trust each other, and you have open communication without a suicide. They don't talk about trust, because they got it. They they flow in it. And it's juicy, and it's great. But trust, trust changes everything, everything,
 
Leighann Lovely  46:55
Absolutely human connection, trust, comfort. If you have an environment where somebody can walk in and say, you know, I need to talk to you I'm, and again, you're not going to have this conversation with a manager you don't trust, I'm struggling, I, you know, have this going on at home, my daughter needs this or my husband needs or I need this, you trust your manager, you're gonna be able to have an open honest conversation about what's going on with you. And you're not going to you're not going to be ashamed about that. Otherwise, if you don't, you're just going to call in and say I'm sick. I mean,
 
Betsy Clark  47:30
and and if, if I can, you know if you can help me work remotely, while my kid has COVID, right, you trust me to get my stuff done in a timely fashion. But if you're micromanaging, and you're controlling, and you're commanding people leave, but how can we do the trust and inspire? How can we create an environment where we can have that connection, and we can breathe life into one another? Because it's a two way street. You inspire me when you meet our quotas? Thank you, you make me look good. I'm so grateful. We're meeting our quota and beyond. Right. And the employee is going Thanks for trusting me and knowing that I can work remotely with my kid who's got COVID Thank you, that inspires me, I will work harder for you, in the days, the months, the years ahead. Because I know you've got my back,
 
Leighann Lovely  48:29
you know, and it's interesting that you say that, because I I've talked to many people who are like, well, you know, I don't I want to have a remote. I want to offer remote. But I don't think that people are working as many hours. I don't think that, you know, I want them to be on site so that I can monitor the hours that they're working.
 
Betsy Clark  48:48
Micromanage.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:50
RIght, Right! But statistically, and I don't have the statistics, and it's been a long time since I read them. And statistics showed that people were working more hours and harder from a remote role than they were on site. And the reason the reasoning behind that was they eliminated their commute time. They eliminated you know, all of that stuff in the middle. So they were able to get to their desk earlier because now they're not sitting in the car for you know, at what I would say that the average commute time is anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes. So now they're not sitting in the car, they've got that much less time away from their family, because you're not really working an eight hour day if you're adding in all the commute time. Right? I mean, you're actually away from your family for a minimum of of nine to 10 hours, or I should say away from your home. Because you commuting
 
Betsy Clark  49:50
Well, and the other piece is you know, I am unemployable. Let's just face it, I really am. And you know when I worked in a large organization I had to keep my door closed because I was in a leadership position. A good part of the time, people would just come by, you know, and they'd go to the coffee and they'd have a cup of coffee. And they weren't even on my team. And they just stand in the doorway and kvetch, and I'm going, Oh, please, are you kidding me. And it isn't that I don't want to be friendly. But when I have a deadline, I want to be able to get her done. And so what's happening is when you're working remotely, you don't have as many distractions and meetings and the minutia that, you know, being on site can in and there's the flip side, we do need connection, I get that, right. But how do we marry those two things so that it supports efficiency and effectiveness? And so I think that there's, there's a place for both and how do we weave those things together? So that we're accomplishing what we set out to
 
Leighann Lovely  50:57
Right, my partner in my day job works in California, I talked to her constantly, we have teams, when I have a question for her, I can either message her on teams, or I can just video call her and be like, hey, it's, it's like she has an office next to me. Right? It's there is a constant line of communication. Is it the same as being in person? Absolutely not. Do we need in person connection and communication? Absolutely. Yeah. But we have we have discovered over the pandemic, that communication does not necessarily have to happen in person, you can be you can work from anywhere and be just as productive. Now, I know that people like the and again, I when we started going back into person and having in person meetings again, I was thrilled because I am a extrovert through and through. And Betsy, I know that when you started being able to go out and do speaking engagements and all that I'm sure that you were probably over the moon right away, get back out there. I was, but again, I am I am 100% An advocate of the remote or hybrid, you know, environment because it has opened the door for so many people to have the ability to be or have a work life balance. Now I also I don't know. Have you ever heard of the show alone? No. Okay. So it's this show a new reality TV my husband and I watched for I think he still watches that they drop these like, major like rip like survivalist people like hardcore survivalists in the middle of nowhere. And they're by themselves, they have basically nothing, they have to make shelter for themselves. And these are harsh territories. They have to make shelter for themselves. They have to find food for themselves and blah, blah, blah. But that's not even the hard part for them. They are dropped in complete isolation. Oh, complete isolation from the human world. And the majority of these people. It's it's not so much the hard work because they're all hardcore survivalists. Many of them, the first thing that happens is, they go practically crazy because they can't talk to anybody. Yeah, there are we as humans, going back to how we started this, we thrive. We need human connection. Yeah. It is. It is the way that we were designed. It is a trait it is a it's in our DNA. Yeah. But there are so many different ways that we can have that human connection.
 
Betsy Clark  53:52
Right. So what was your takeaway on this call? Wow.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:56
So much.
 
Betsy Clark  53:58
Sorry, I'm a coach. I just I know,
 
Leighann Lovely  54:00
I don't even know where to begin. You know, there's a lot that we talked about that is really reconfirmed many of the things that my Dad who obviously I mentioned earlier is, you know, had said to me over and over, but there are a lot of things that that just kind of blew my mind. I would love to see you speak I I'm very interested in the modality
 
Betsy Clark  54:29
of strength Strength Finders,
 
Leighann Lovely  54:30
Yes, that is widely in the four pillars that you had talked about. But I'm also really interested in the kaleidoscope in your headshots.
 
Betsy Clark  54:40
Can I Can Can I take a few minutes to just explain that? Yes, please. Okay, so here's the kaleidoscope. So being a mindset chaplain, it all begins and ends in our mindset, right? So I want you to play with me and I want you to pretend you're looking Through the kaleidoscope, and I want you to take a snapshot of the image of the color and the light and the symmetry and all of that, this beautiful design. And then I want you to take the N piece and turn it a quarter turn to the left. So what happens?
 
Leighann Lovely  55:18
It changes
 
Betsy Clark  55:21
The picture changes right? Okay, so I want you to play with me. So now, I want you to go back a quarter turn in the opposite direction and get that same picture.
 
Leighann Lovely  55:33
It's not going to happen.
 
Betsy Clark  55:35
Well you can't do it. So here's what's so fun is when you have a shift, the whole picture changes. And you can't go back. And that's the power of working with someone who will guide you in shifting your mindset so that you change your beliefs. Because here's the deal. You would never what year were you born?
 
Leighann Lovely  56:02
1981.
 
Betsy Clark  56:04
Okay, you would never use a computer from 1989, would you?
 
Leighann Lovely  56:13
NO 
 
Betsy Clark  56:15
It's laughable. But you know what, Leighann? That's exactly what we're doing. We're using an outdated operating system. Because we're going back to how we were conditioned. And all of those things about comparison, I talked about that with you. It takes with like, we're wet cement, right? They ever seen the sidewalk of wet cement? Yeah. And something comes in makes a deep impression. And that's what our mindset is when we're between five and eight or nine. And it can take a lifetime to fill those deep impressions that are lasting that former worldview. And we fill them with the right things. And so if I were using an operating system from when I was five or six, I would think I was the dumbest person on the face of the planet. Because that's all I ever heard is pecha. You're so stupid. And boy, are you ever sensitive? Well, the truth of the matter is, those are my strengths, I'm really high in empathy. And that's one of my superpowers into I upgraded the operating system. And I'm using a paradigm that serves me that's accurate, that's updated, so that I can go out and do what only I was designed to do. So that you can go out in the fullness of your Lian Ness, and go out and make an impact because you've upgraded your operating system by a very simple process of shifting your perspective. Now, once you've done that, you can't go back. And that, my friend, is why your mindset matters.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:58
That's awesome. And we all we all need to do that. Yes, especially now, especially now. And that in that plays truly into the reason that I have started. The reason I originally started this podcast, so many people out there have had to hide their true identity in fear. So many people, and I'm not just talking about people, some, many of my longtime listeners are gonna go, Oh, she's talking about mental health. I'm not just talking about the mental health aspect. No, I'm talking about people who have children, people who have, you know, things going on at home who were taking care of loved ones. For so long. They, you know, people thought that they had to walk into work and leave all of that crap at the door in order to keep their job. That should not be that way. We shouldn't have to become a different person. When we walk into our jobs. We all have baggage, we all have a life outside of work. And we should be able to work with people who understand that because they have it to you maybe the 20 year old or the 23 year old who's free, you know, right now live in in the free world didn't, doesn't have to deal with all of the stuff. Of course, right now, unfortunately, half the world is suffering from social anxiety because we all shut down for a million years. So they probably understand just as well as the rest of us that we all have it. We have to stop, we have to stop expecting the employees to leave it all at the door. We should all be able to be our authentic selves. And we have to have a mind reset, we have to have a shift and the way that we think of people. We are not just numbers. We are human with a lot of human emotions and all of the mumble jumble and baggage and emotions and stuff that comes with it and I'll stop there because I like to go On rants
 
Betsy Clark  1:00:00
well, it I think that's why those four pillars matter, right trust, compassion, stability and hope. We need to bring that here. So here's something that I would I, you haven't asked me, but I'm just going to offer this and you can edit it out if you don't want me to say this. But I have these Grace cards. And I would love to offer this as a free gift to your listeners. And because grace is, this card is about giving yourself permission to love, accept, and forgive yourself. And to have these in your bathroom or on your computer. It's just so powerful, because here's video forgiveness. And the best definition I know about forgiveness is letting go of the past you wish you'd had. So how can we forgive ourselves, accept ourselves and love ourselves? It's by showing ourselves grace. And when we come from that solid, grounded Place of Grace, we can extend it to others. And I think that's one of the aspects that makes us a leader worth following.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:01:10
That's awesome. And how would somebody go about reaching out to you to get one of those,
 
Betsy Clark  1:01:15
I am going to give you the link, so they can go to my website. And they can order them and give me their snail mail address that old thing. And I will put these in an envelope myself, and send a little note of encouragement and send you these as a gift. Because I know that sometimes it can be really hard. And we all need grace.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:01:41
Excellent. Now we're coming to time, but I want to ask you the question of the season before I release you. So the question of the season is if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or your career path. When would that be and why?
 
Betsy Clark  1:02:02
Well, I worked with my husband and my family for 35 years. And I really enjoyed that. I told you I had an accident and had to leave working with as an artist. I went, I told you I got certified as a Gallup strength coach, and the guy that trained me, saw me. And he reflected back to me how my strengths would have shown up as we explored and excavated, what strength meant. And as I walked out of there, I said Kurt, that was better than $20,000 worth of psychotherapy. Because I see me the way I was designed. And it's authentic. It's true. It gives me permission to grow and to learn, so that I can make the impact that it's it's my it's it's my spiritual DNA that I am to be an encourager, I am to be a purveyor of active hope. An act of hope isn't sitting on your couch, twiddling your thumbs waiting for your ship to come in. Hope is saying, You know what, I know, there's a future that's out there. That's good. It's juicy. And it's mine for the taking. I just need to get up off the couch and go get her done. Because the acronym for hope for me is having an optimistic perspective, every day, having an optimistic perspective, every day, because you see, the picture changed. And I see that I am capable of a lot. Because someone breathed life into me, they inspired me to be my best. And that's what I want for my clients. For the women who don't know what the next step is. I'd love to have that conversation with them. And I think that having grace is one of the things that will make a difference.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:04:09
That's amazing. And, wow, that's amazing.
 
Betsy Clark  1:04:13
So I would invite people to go to my website, it's Coach, two strengths.com. And it's coach with the number two and strengths, plural, make sure you spell strengths the right way. And you can go and you can see all the different things that you can get as free opt ins or if you feel like you would like to have a conversation with me complimentary just, you know, ask questions and see if if you're primed to take the step to leverage your brilliance and to be that leader worth following.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:04:50
I mean, I'm going to have your you'll be able to find how to reach out to you on the show notes. So if anybody wants to, you know, find you there there'll be able to click a link to you directly to your website. Betsy thank you. Thank you so much for having this conversation. It has been awesome. Just like the first conversation that we had, and I'm sure other conversations will come in the future because you're just, you are just a bright shining star and I just really enjoyed. Really enjoyed this. So thank you.
 
Betsy Clark  1:05:22
Thank you so much. It's been a joy. I told you we'd have fun.
 
Leighann Lovely  1:05:25
Absolutely. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Website - www.coach2strengths.com
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/betsyclark55
Grace Cards - https://www.coach2strengths.com/grace-card/ 
Complimentary Connection Call -coach2strengths.com/connectcallwithbetsy
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 22 - Dream big or small, just follow your path, Jamie White

Have you ever dreamed of becoming a cashier, this guest started out with this dream. However, she quickly realized that her path did not end there. She was destined for so much more, her path was not straight but it was amazing, unique, and not finished.  
 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely so let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us, and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:05
Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. It's just it's exciting to talk with you today. Because we've met through, you know, somebody else that, we both know. So thank you so much for being here.
 
Jamie White  01:21
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be a part of this. And I love what you have to offer. And I'm so excited to be on board.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:30
So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
 
Jamie White  01:36
Yeah, so my name is Jamie white. And commonly in work, I go by my middle name, which is actually Cinderella. And so anybody that I work with, currently has known me as Cinderella. So if you hear me refer to myself that way. That's why Currently, I am the general manager for antique op, which is a brand that has storage, as well as antique stores throughout Wisconsin. But I actually got that set up through meeting Jaime and Kevin, that is also Jaime white. So we differentiate with my middle name being Cinderella and her being Jaime, they really kind of set me on this amazing career path between coaching and management.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:26
Kevin has actually come on my podcast. And he made an introduction, for you and I. And it was really funny when he made that introduction, because he said, I would like to introduce you to Jamie White. Not not that Jamie. And yeah, and I was like, wait, what do you mean up? And he introduced the two of us. So tell me a little bit about how you met Jamie and Kevin White of the white group. And Kevin now of, you know, he has a podcast, business addicts. But how How did you meet them? And how did that relationship evolve?
 
Jamie White  02:59
Yeah, so it was during 2020, I had kind of left my somewhat career at the time. And I got this email asking for a nanny, I used to nanny all the time. And I had left that career path on long time prior, I got to speaking with Jamie and originally wasn't anticipating leading into that realm at all. But we found that we had so much in common that it just felt like a complete perfect fit. So I ended up nanning for them for a little bit in the process. I I found coaching. So they are actual coaches, life coaches. And at the time, I didn't realize what I was getting into. I didn't know anything about coaching and never heard about it before. And I hadn't yet worked through quite a bit of my traumatic background. And so in the process of being the nanny, Jamie was coaching me and I didn't know it was coaching at the time. And all I knew was we were working like I was working through things. And she was asking me all these great questions that led me to think in a deeper way. And in Kevin, I got to know him a couple months down the line because he wasn't as home as often as she was, and ended up just really having so much respect for the both of them. And the differences that they bring to coaching and leadership and teaching others how to grow in themselves and to develop who that it is that they've been made into being. Rather than trying to force you into a mold or a box. It's very, very much Who are you and what are your skills? What do you bring to the table and let's develop you and what you're interested in. And so that was game changing and lifestyle Changing and now I've been blessed to kind of partner with them with their coaching crew, which is believed grew. As well as Jaime kind of giving me my start in management and HR
 
Leighann Lovely  05:15
That is completely amazing. And to start out as a nanny, and for her to take an interest in you, and not just take an interest in you, but to see that there was something so much deeper happening within you that she was able to start pulling that out of you and be able to help you level up.
 
Jamie White  05:38
Yeah, absolutely. She actually fired me from being the nanny. She told me after a while she she could sense that I was getting antsy, or you had taken like a side job for H&R block. And I was working working as a receptionist in the evenings. And they quickly offered me management as I was just the part time receptionist. And I realized like I wanted that, but I wasn't sure that I wanted it there per se. But I had this yearning for something more. And so she ended up firing me. When they offered me management, she said, that's what you're meant for more than this, this isn't your role. So you have a choice, you can either be my housekeeper, and she knows that I absolutely hate cleaning. You could manage for me at antique up because at the time she was running these companies or you could find a position elsewhere. But you cannot be my nanny anymore. That and that was great.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:39
Right? So throught now you had mentioned you had gone through some trauma. And she helped you, you work through that. So
 
Jamie White  06:52
yeah, she absolutely did.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:54
Are you open to talking about?
 
Jamie White  06:56
About that? Yes, absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:59
So tell me a little bit about that, and how that has helped, you know what that looked like and how that has helped shape who you are?
 
Jamie White  07:09
Yeah, absolutely it's a long story. So I'll try to condense it rather than it being being the whole thing. If you want to check out more of the details. Kevin's podcast actually has like the full testimony. But basically, I was born into severe abuse. My biological father was a diagnosed sociopath. And he was extremely abusive to my mother, and manipulative and gaslighting and trying to kill her and kill us. And so we ended up going to hiding and changing our names, changing all of our identities. When I was about 11, we went into hiding, and that it was like two completely separate lives happened. So we had to before and we didn't access those memories, those were done. And then we had the current, which was just survival. And we didn't talk about the past, we didn't talk about kind of what we were feeling. There wasn't therapy, it wasn't safe to talk to anybody. So it was all of this bottling up. And so it wasn't even safe to, you know, tell people, we were domestic violence victims, because then that could create a link to being found. So as a teenager, as I'm going through all these things, I repressed so many things that I didn't know how to feel, I didn't know how to have hope or have a future. The only thing I could think of was the day to day just get through today. There was no, there was no career that I could have. There was no thought process because it was survival based. And that began to change. After I had my daughter. I knew that I didn't want to be in that path anymore. But I didn't know how to get out either. When you've had your whole family is wrapped up in this. And it's a very real threat. But it's also it also can keep you stuck depends on having wisdom in that situation. And when when is it the right time to move on? And when is it safer to stay. And so that was an interesting transition period, because I was 19 when I had her and had moved away completely from everyone that I ever knew, to start over, have a kind of get a new identity, change everything. Learn who I was as an adult, who I was as a person who I was as a mom, all of those things kind of came into play. My self esteem was so low. And I felt like I had nothing to offer that the only thing I could ever imagine being good enough to do was to work at Kwik Trip that wasn't My dream job at the time was to be a cashier at Kwik Trip. It's very interesting because I ended up becoming a cashier at Kwik Trip. And I really enjoyed the culture and the atmosphere and some of the things that they provided. But they ended up kind of catapulted me into wanting more, which was very nice. After all, the trauma after the repression, the lies, the not being able to figure out who I was, it left's a lot of identity issues. It left a lot of esteem issues, the left issues and relationships that left issues in careers, I couldn't have friends, because people weren't safe. I couldn't be honest. And if you can't be honest and vulnerable, you can't trust anybody. You can't have anybody in your life. And so that was that was probably the hardest thing to unlearn. When you've had your entire life be one way to unlearn that is actually quite painful, because you feel this fear on letting go. Because it's not safe to do otherwise. So it's a lot of mental shifting there.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:11
Right? Well, and something you just said, is unlearned. Wow, that's such a such a huge statement, right now isn't the entire world, all of management, trying to unlearn the bad habits that we have?
 
Jamie White  11:27
Absolutely. Management has been driven by this abusive culture, this fear based culture. You know, management has been taught that if they don't get their employees in line, then they have to worry about their job. And so they ruled by fear, because their, their whole position is based in fear and control. And it's not supposed to be I don't think that's how, in any way, it's not good. But if you look at, you know, statistically or psychologically, what that actually does is it ends up creating a toxic culture that people want to leave. Versus if you have a loving culture where you trust that your employees are going to do well, you trust people, you trust your customers? And what does that look like? You have to actually learn to like the people that you work with and develop them. And that's a different challenge than fear.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:17
Wow! I didn't mean to diminish what you the story that you just told, but what you just said was, that was very profound, to have to unlearn. And I don't know that there are words to say. I mean, the story that you just told is, is unbelievable, to grow up in that environment, to be one, the age that you were in fully aware of what was happening, to have had 11 years in an environment that was obviously very horrific. And now to be a woman who has clearly come out the other side, and very healthy and happy and doing well is it's it's amazing. It's it's should show so many people out there that you and others are very capable of moving past, the traumas that we that we all not that we all have experienced. But that we that we experience in life that some of us have had to endure in in life. So your dream job you mentioned was Kwik Trip. So yeah, and you did you went and worked at Kwik Trip? And you then said you realize that you wanted more because of that? What was the trigger of? Wow, I can do this. I want more. And where did you go from there?
 
Jamie White  13:44
Yeah, so I ended up transferring stores. So I was originally in Stevens Point and a quick trip there. And then I moved to rapids. And I got a new store and I wasn't sure how to handle that environment. It was very different atmosphere culturally workwise. And was really challenging. It didn't feel healthy. And even the the way that Kwik Trip works is the amount of labor hours that you are allotted is by how much fast or like hot food you sell. So you could have tons of customers every day, but it's determined by how much fast food you sell through Kwik Trip. And if you have a community that's more health conscious or maybe older, you don't sell as much hot food so then you don't have as much labor. We had a really bad shortage, because that was that was just the criteria that they looked at staffing. And we and I knew that we needed to up our hot food sales basically. We were also having a lot of issues with Drive offs. We have a culture here that is there's a lot of crime unfortunately, in this small town. So you know there's a lot of drove off. There's a lot of people who were kind of cheating the system, I guess. And so marketing wise some things have just come naturally to me, which is you make someone feel seen you make them feel wanted and welcome, a they're more likely to buy from you. But if there is theft, they're more likely it's more likely to deter them and create that connection of they've seen me they've seen me as a person. So it was during there was a huge lottery surge. And I think it was like over a billion dollars or something like that, where we just had lines all day long. For maybe it was powerful. And we didn't really have enough staff for it. We weren't prepared for this nonsense and lines all wrapped around the store. And I just needed something, some positivity to infuse the day because all of my coworkers were kind of done, the customers were done. So we have to announce, when they're, you know, when someone comes to the pump, you have to say we see you come inside. And normally it's a quick, you know, Hi, Pam five, we'll see inside. And I was I just came up with this idea of almost being like a showmanship, we're like, over the top ridiculous. So I was like, welcome pump five, we are so happy to see you today. Come on inside, we've got our pizza on sale for only 4.99. And it was over the top, it was ridiculous. And it made everybody happy. And we sold more pizzas or whatever it was that was on sale that day than we had on other, you know, sale days. And I loved it. I loved getting to see the people over in the pumps, just laughing and smiling. Like it was the greatest thing ever. And just that extra oomph of customer service really drove me, we ended up getting a new store leader after that, who she was more by the book. And she decided that she didn't like that turn of events, and she wanted it to go back to how it was, and for the kind of the direction to be somewhere else. And we just didn't see eye to eye on it. And I realized that for me, customer service, and marketing, and management, all rights totally together. When you make your customers feel loved. You give your employees opportunities to take on a project that they're passionate about, and it grows the company. That's what you should be encouraging. If it's growing the employees, if it's growing the customers, if they're developing themselves and developing the company, it should be encouraged. And it gives the employees ownership of something and makes them feel valued. And like they bring something to this company, I realized that that is the culture that I wanted to be a part of. And that's what I wanted to create. And I couldn't do it from a place of being a cashier. Somebody would always be making the rules above me the path to management, incorrect trim, you can do it. But it takes time, they want to see you do the cashier and then move your way out. And I'm not I wasn't interested in waiting that long. So I decided to start my own company after that point. I started that for a little while. And then I realized that, you know, while that direction that I was in wasn't the direction I wanted to be in long term. I was designed for management to lead others to develop a business and accompany by developing the people. And there's, you know, the quote that I love is that employees should be the company's biggest fans. And if they're not, you're doing something wrong, and you really need to take a hard look at management at your company. Are you acting with integrity, if you have a company that a brings value to something, you're fulfilling a need, you're making something better, you're improving it, because that's why we're in business, right? We're nobody gets into business to do something mediocre, you're supposed to be passionate about. It's something that you want to do. And so that's the first tool is having a company that you know is worth value to people. And then having if your employees don't love your company, it's a sure sign that you've got something going on in management, because you're not valuing them as people if you value them as people, and they believe in the philosophy of the company. They'll go forever with you. They will love their experience. If you leave them with. You're just a body. You're just here to be a robot and do what I want. Your company may grow to a degree but it will never flourish. Because the culture is toxic. You're going to have turnover you're going to have employees who don't speak highly of you, your your employees, if treated well, are your best marketing asset. You shouldn't treat them well just because of that, but you should also look at it logically, if you treat them well, if you honor them, they're going to care about you and want to create this amazing company that flourishes because then they also flourish.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:23
And Kwik Trip is, is known for creating amazing environments. So you, you had a peek under the curtain? Unfortunately, not every single location runs the same. And yeah, there's always going to be changing conflict, you know, at different locations here and there. But you had you had a true, you know, and I say this because I also have a mother who is in management at Kwik Trip. So you had a peek under the curtain at a very young age of what awesome culture looks like, Oh, absolutely. Many of us, especially those of us who are on the older scale, we went to work and it was your, you know, come do your job, go home. And it wasn't so much designed around, making your employees happy. So much as I mean, it wasn't make your employees unhappy. It was more, you're here to do a job. Do the job. Go home?
 
Jamie White  21:22
Yep, it was very one sided. Correct. And
 
Leighann Lovely  21:25
nowadays, people are demanding more, and I say demanding on purpose. People finally are saying, I'm not my grandfather. I'm not the person who is going to be a number show up, do my job. Go home, I want to enjoy what I do. I want to have a purpose. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Jamie White  21:53
No, there really isn't. In fact, I think that every single person should always view it that way. They should say, What do I want? What am I passionate about? Where do I put value in? Find out what their career is you shouldn't have to go to work and just think I'm doing this just for a paycheck. Right? You should have passionate about it.
 
Leighann Lovely  22:11
Right. And, I love the fact that you said my goal. You know, at a younger age, my goal was just to be a cashier at Kwik Trip, because that's there is somebody out there to do every job. Because people say, Well, if everybody's purpose is to be this or that, and I say But not everybody's purpose is to be the owner of a company, some people's purpose is to go in, run a machine and do the best they can possibly do. And go home.
 
Jamie White  22:43
Yeah, they love it. And I love how different people are we have, you know, on each of my stores, we have five to 10 workers, and it depends on what role you are in what you end up doing. And I have some I have this one young lady who's worked for me for almost a year. She's amazing. She does her job. Well. She enjoys her job. She enjoys the culture. She's very personable. And she's, you know, one of our customer service people at the front desk. So she's cashier, she does all that. And she's taken it and she's owned it. Because I love management and leadership. I of course was like, Oh, you must want this. And she was like, No, I don't at all. I love what I'm doing right here. It made me pause and I'm like, wow, like this is not for everybody. And each person has their own things that they're like I love this. We have like our cleaning lady is so excited to come and clean. She feels that she's got ownership. She takes her job. She does it amazingly. She's one of the hardest workers I've ever seen. I could not do that job. I am not geared for it. I would go crazy. I would. When Jamie offered the cleaning position for her. I said absolutely not. You couldn't pay me enough to do it. Right. But then you have someone else who it doesn't matter that right. You know, it's cleaning. She loves it. She's good at it. She's passionate about it. So that's what you need.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:17
Right? I have a friend who I remember we were talking and I said well, you know, and this was early on in our friendship. She I didn't know what she did for a living and she says, Well, you know, I clean houses. And I'm like, Okay, there's nothing wrong with that. She goes, I love it. She was I wouldn't do anything else. I love going into other people's homes, and making it look beautiful and making it look perfect. Now here's the thing about me. I have an issue with hair. If I have to clean out like the drain in somebody else's bathtub, but I'm sorry, right, exactly. Oh, God, like run away. I can't do it again. touch it. I can't look at it. I can't. That would that right there. Okay, if I empty the bag of some, you know of somebody's vacuum cleaner. I'm sorry. Like, I have really bad gag reflex. And I just, I remember when I was when I was working at a small staffing company, and they're like, yep, everybody, you know rotates on on helping up cleaning. Again, they didn't have a cleaning lady everybody pitched in fine. But when I had to clean out the vacuum cleaner, I was like, Oh, God, I have to close my eyes. I can't even I can't even look at this. I even bothers me with my own home. Okay. Like, there's there's just certain I can clean a toilet all day. Fine. put my gloves on clean. I just can't. But there are people out there who like I love going into somebody's home, making it look perfect. They come home and they're like, Wow, it looks beautiful in here. They call me and they're like, Hey, you did such a great job today. That's their passion. They love it. And so my friends, like, yeah, I run I have my own business I have. I have the same clients, you know, that call me. And I go it every two weeks, or I go every week. And I you know, it's great. And I'm like, awesome. That's, that's amazing. Like, why would I think any less of you because you clean homes, like, I hate to do much more. Right? I would love to hire somebody to come and clean my home right now I can't fit it in my budget.
 
Jamie White  26:29
I actually so I don't have much for hobbies. I love work. And that's about it. Like that's what I just enjoy doing. And so I decided, I absolutely hate cleaning. I am not a homemaker in any shape, or form. But I have a six year old. So in my budget, I don't care how poor I am. Once a month, I set aside, like $100 for somebody to come and clean for a few hours. And it has been the most freeing thing ever. Because I'm like it's not. I'm not a bad mom or a bad woman because I don't like doing it. It's just not who God has made me to be but someone else. It's a blessing for them. The money is a blessing to and it's worth it for both of us, right? Hey,
 
Leighann Lovely  27:13
I know that I could fit it into my budget if it was a priority. But it's your priority. Right? It's right now. I've got other priorities and everybody's working thing. And my husband is perfectly fine with you know, emptying the vacuum bag for me. So there's the trade off, I take care of. I take care of the dishes, I do all of the you know, and he's like, Oh, I'll do that job. Okay, great. We've We've compromised here. But Right, right. Again, so sorry, getting back to where we were. Yeah, you're good. Something that you said that. Um, you and I talked about this before. And I wrote it down the last time we talked because you said that employees should be the company's biggest fan. And that is hands down the greatest, most important thing to any business. If you if you have a workforce that hates coming to their job, that hates doing their job, the number one most horrifying thing that any business can have employees who leave and then go and tell their friends. Oh, I hate working here. I hate that is it? So it only takes one negative review to destroy the company's reputation. Yeah, it's coming from somebody who actually works at your company. Think about how powerful that is?
 
Jamie White  28:47
Yep, absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:48
I mean, I don't understand why more employers and why more owners don't get that?
 
Jamie White  28:58
Well, I think for a lot of the time before social media had the prevalence it did. You know, it was a lot harder for Word to get out if you were a bad employer, and you didn't have as many options and it was kind of like, Okay, this one's terrible, but what else is there? And so that culture could be pervasive. It could be, you know, it was normal. Whereas now, you know, we've got canceled culture where if someone steps out of line to a degree, that's how you dehumanize someone or you did something that was wrong, like, now, all it takes is is one horrible thing happening in your company and it can be destroyed. And we shouldn't ever have a company where we're in fear of being destroyed. But we should always look at our actions and say, Are we treating somebody to the best of our ability? And, you know, circling back to Kwik Trip, their motto is basically, do you want to others as you would do to yourself and, you know, treat people as you want to be treated and make a difference and they will lives by your actions and your attitudes. That's kind of I really took that and said, Okay, this is my personal mission, right? How am I going to treat every single person I come into contact with. And even if I fail, because we're human, it's if that's your motto, you are going to care about them, you're going to treat them well. It's not going to be about the bottom line, which is for so long companies, that's all it was about was just the bottom line, not the real priority of a business, which is to improve the lives of your customers. And in the process, your employees. I know Smuckers used to have this this viewpoint of, and I don't know if they do now, because I haven't looked into it recently. But their viewpoint was that we would take first take care of our employees, because if we take care of our employees, they can take care of our customers. And rather than it being okay, the customers, you know, always come first, we are your company is made up of people. And those people have their own needs and their own life problems. And if you say, if you don't do what we want, you're fired, or you can't get sick, or you can't take time off and you can't have a life, what you're gonna find is your company is going to end up worthless to people. Right? And that's what matters.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:20
Companies need to start treating their employees, like customers here. Yes, they do. I mean, yes. Because and here's coming from a staffing perspective. I can I can tell you, that it when somebody comes to me, and they say, We just can't hire anybody, we just can't get anybody in the door. We. So the first thing I do is I go out and I start talking to people who are in their industry. It is really, really quick. It doesn't take me long, it doesn't take a long time at all, for me to figure out the reason they can't hire anybody, especially because I will talk to people who are in the industry. And some of these industries are very small. And I will hear from other employees that oh, yeah, I don't want to work there. Well, why don't you want to work here? Oh, I hear it's a horrible place to work. They they they turn people out all the time. I would never go work there. Oh, yep. And it's like, and once that, once that reputation starts, it is extremely difficult to get rid of it. Because it really is. It's that that just keeps going through and through and through and through and through. Even if they spend a whole time at money time trying to change that culture, it is going to stay with them for a very long time. Yeah, and right, as somebody who's in the industry, there are a handful of companies that I can list right now. And I'm obviously I'm not going to, but that I could list and say yep, the reason that this company spits people out, and people and they have such a hard time hiring is because they have a reputation for being a horrible place to work.
 
Jamie White  33:13
I know I've had companies that I've worked for that, that I saw things done with lack of integrity. So even when I was offered a promotion, or this amazing dream job, the reality was the culture didn't have the air of integrity that I require. And you're finding that employees or potential employees are a lot more picky today. I've had. So I've had quite an extensive hiring experience since I took over in management. And the one thing that always sticks out to me is even if I don't go with someone like this, I do a lot of interviews. I've gotten multiple people, every single time that I have a hiring session, say this has been the best interview of my life. Because you saw me as a person, like you're treating me as a person. And they're like, it makes me want to work for you more and even if I don't get this position, thank you for how you just treated me and then that's your interview process. From the from the time you start interviewing somebody to the time that you that somebody ends with your company. All of that shows who you are as a person and shows what your company represents. If you treat them badly in the interview your say you're a number what what do you bring to the table? Why would I want you rather than saying who are you as a person? How do you fit like, is this something you want to do? Is this something you're passionate about? And seeing do you guys mesh? Well, it's made most interviews are made with this air of you're here to fit me and rather than Who are you Let me get to know you. Okay, if you're a good fit, let's continue this. Because you also want to think about what your employees want what your potential employees want. If you have somebody who, let's say they say they want to be a cashier, and they apply for a position with me, but they hate people. I don't care what their extensive experiences if they tell me Yeah, I really hate people. And I actually really like tech. And this is where I'm drawn to. And I'm like, alright, that's awesome. And amazing, you would probably dislike this position, and you would be upset with it long term, because it's not who you are. Let's see if we can find you something in tech, or, you know, I have the time I make suggestions to them. Like, you know, I don't think that this is going to be the right fit, because what we're looking for as a people person, but over here, they're hiring. And your skill set who you are, would probably really fit them really well.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:57
Do you want to work for me? Want to come be a recruiter or, you know, a consultant, you
 
Jamie White  36:04
know, I've done consulting for people.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:08
I mean, because that's, the conversation I have with with candidates all the time when they're like, Yeah, I would really like to do this. And I'm like, Yeah, but you are saying that you don't like any of the job duties? Yeah, but I really need a job. Okay,
 
Jamie White  36:22
Right. And the employees have learned that they have to sell themselves and pretend to be whatever you want in order to get something. But that's this, this abusive mindset, honestly, that you even see in abusive relationships, right? That it's you need to conform to who I am, rather than be yourself in, even in my interviews, so when we talk about wages, employees, or potential employees come to me, and, you know, we advertise how much we are hiring for. And I've got people who are like, well, you know, that's, that's a little low, but I could do it. And I'm like, because I always ask them, How do you feel about the wage? Or what are you looking for? And almost every time they will tell me that they're okay with the wage that set, even if they're clearly not okay with it, right, even if they need more, and I tell each one of them, I'm like you like, Okay, I'll take you at your word. But I'm going to tell you for future reference, if you are actually wanting something, you need to come into an interview and saying, this is actually how much I want. And if it's if they can't do it, or it's not the right fit for you, then then that's not somewhere you want to work. But if you go in saying I'm going to accept whatever you give me, it's setting yourself up for an abusive employer employee relationship. It's not healthy. I'm like, even if you said, You know what, I actually really want 11 That's exactly what I'm looking for. Or I want, you know, 11 is too low. I really need 12. And here's my experience, and I'm worth it. Right, you know, whatever the case is, yep.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:56
People are always afraid that. And I have the obviously in the field that I'm in I'm, I always ask, what do you what do you want? What do you need? And what would be awesome if you got paid? And then? Oh, absolutely. That's an interesting question. Because I need to know, I need a if this position is paying $20 an hour, can you survive on that? Well, yeah. Would you be comfortable in that? No. Okay, so let's talk about the real number. Let's talk about the number where you're not, you know, pinching pennies and wondering if you're going to be able to make ends meet, right? Exactly, exactly. Where you're going to be able to occasionally go out to dinner, or go out and hang out with friends and not be going live on your salary. Correct? Exactly. I, you know, I again, because if you hire somebody at that, they're going to constantly be looking at the next possible opportunity. And they are, right. So I always ask, what are you? What are you? What is your, you know, what can you survive on? What do you want to make? What would be so awesome if you got? And, I mean, that's the conversation. I no longer ask people, What do you want to make? Because, well,
 
Jamie White  39:11
They don't know, we didn't have the confidence for they think that they're going to be rejected if they have standards, correct. And so even when I when I know without a doubt, somebody will not be able to work for me. I say, you know, this was an amazing interview, and I'm gonna tell you straight up you need to value yourself more. Yep, your next interview, nobody's going to be offended if you say this is what I want to make. This is what I need to make. If you're willing to settle for less don't tell them
 
Leighann Lovely  39:37
no, don't tell you know, never tell anybody. Well, I really want this I mean, but you know, if you offer me this, I'll take it.
 
Jamie White  39:47
Why? Like you just under sold your entire cell. But what employees are starting to realize that there are so many jobs out there jobs that perhaps they weren't they didn't used to have access to or that have better benefits or whatever, they have the ability now to be picky. But a lot of times, the people that come to me are younger, in their work history, they don't know they don't yet have a lot of confidence are developing as people. I've told every single one of them, you need to ask for more, right? You need to stay because what I want,
 
Leighann Lovely  40:19
so I don't work with a lot of very young people, but I just I'm working on hiring a nanny a very part time like a baby, right? So I asked, you know, the nanny, how much do you How much do you need an hour? And the conversation was very weird, because I'm not used to dealing with somebody who is 2019 years old. And it was what I don't really like this conversation was the way it started with what she said to me. And I'm like, Okay, well, what do you want to make?
 
Jamie White  40:52
Right? Well, a lot of times, they think that you're going to tell them what you can make.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:56
And so, you know, she went on to say, well, you know, I previously made this, you know, I would like to make it and I finally said Don't sell yourself short, just tell me the dollar amount that you want, and I will pay you. And eventually, eventually it came to okay, you used to make this I'll give you $1 More an hour, okay, like,
 
Jamie White  41:17
right? No, I totally get it. Actually, Kevin. And I just had this conversation because I'm doing consulting for for the escape rooms that are that they have, and like hiring and training and managing certain aspects of it. And he's like, Well, how much do you want to make for this? And I'm like, and I do exactly what I tell everybody not to do. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I guess this must be fine. And he's like, No, that's ridiculous. That's, it's ridiculous like this? And I'm like, Well, no, no, that's what I make now. And he's like, No, and here you go. And he gave me this number that I'm like, You know what, actually, I feel like, that's fair. But because I had low confidence in it. I was like, willing to undersell myself, and I would have been upset, actually long term if I was willing to settle for that. So I always tell my employees to ask, right, the worst thing I can say is, you know, we can't do that. But we could do this. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:14
And that's what I tell every, you know, you know, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of my candidates who, and this is a rarity. Normally I negotiate on their behalf when I'm placing, you know, a candidate for them, but one of my clients prefers to negotiate directly with a direct their direct hires, which is fine, because they are doing a direct hire there. They just pay us basically for the search, setting up the interview. And then once they go into we want to offer, they prefer to do all of the negotiation from there on out, okay, that's fine. makes my job easier. But the candidate calls me and says, Well, I would like to negotiate. And I said, okay, and he goes, Can we walk through how I do this? Absolutely. Let's talk it over. You know, so I, you know, I go over everything. And I'm like, and the last thing I said was, if they say no, are you still going to take the job? Yes. He says, Okay, great. So, with that in mind, by asking for all of these things that you you want, just remember that the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and you still have a job. And he was like, oh, yeah, right. I mean, there's there's no. And it's, of course, there are situations where if somebody comes back and is asking for, you know, a ridiculous amount more and is not being appropriate in the way they're doing it, they can always rescind the offer. But this is not a case in which, you know, he wasn't asking for anything. Outrageous. He wasn't being you know, right. Yeah, it was pretty, a pretty straightforward standard, like, Hey, can I have, you know, a little bit of additional vacation? Can we, you know, meet in the middle here and all pretty basic things. Yep. And it comes down to the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and either you choose not to accept a job, or you choose to still accept the job, and you have a job, or you walk away from a job that you can't take because they weren't willing to give you enough money to survive. And exactly, I think people forget that people. People think, Oh, I'm going to be rejected.
 
Jamie White  44:28
That's absolutely what it is.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:29
Right, the fear of rejection is, I think the greatest fear that that people have of oh my gosh, they're going to reject me.
 
Jamie White  44:39
Yeah, it I totally agree. I mean, I see this. So when I'm coaching women, in relationships, we see the same thing. Your relationship with your employer, your relationship with a partner, very similar in this is they're driven by fear of rejection, so they're willing to accept whatever you want when they realize that They actually have more value than they were under selling them, they get upset at the employer that took them at their word, and said, Okay, this was the terms that you agreed to. And so I encourage each one of our employees or potential employees, in our interview, to say, what do you value? Who are you? Like, I don't focus a lot of times on work, like I might ask your work history and whatever. But most the time, it's okay, who are you? What are you passionate about? What? What do you bring to the table? What's your favorite thing about yourself? The most amazing thing is that is a hardest question for people to answer. And what they will always answer what they want to improve on, they will always give you that answer, because they're so used to selling themselves short. Right? And so I try to encourage each one of our employees, each one of the people that come in, as you are amazing, this is who you are, this might not be a right fit, but it doesn't mean you're redacted. It means that you are valued somewhere else, that you bring something to the table that no one else does. We just don't have the position for it. But here you go, here's what you should do,
 
Leighann Lovely  46:04
right? Like, we could talk for hours about all of this, this is the stuff that like gets me going and I'm like, Yes, I'm so tired of people selling them sell shorts and women in particular. Oh, absolutely. There's still that fear around Well, women not being treated equally or not being accepted, there's still that fear. And I want to, I'm sure like you because I have a daughter, you have a daughter, I want to make sure that by the time my daughter enters the workforce that there is never, ever that fear of Well, I'm not going to be looked at as good as my male peers, or my male counterpart is. Yeah, and I preach that constantly is Don't sell yourself short. You if you write the skills, if you have the, the experience to back it up, there is nothing wrong for asking what you're worth.
 
Jamie White  46:57
I totally agree. I think that what I see a lot when I hired a man or I have an interview with a man, a lot of times they're not afraid to ask for more. I've actually never had a woman tell me that she needed to make more, unless she'd been in the workforce for a long time. Like someone who was like 30 years, my senior, she was like, I need this much to make a living. I was like, unfortunately, that's out of our budget, I think that you're worth it. But the position that we have just wouldn't work for that, right. But men are typically they just come in and say, I'd like to make this much. If you like eight out of 10 times, if you just say, this is how much I'd like to make. And you're just calm with it, you're probably gonna get it. I mean, not if it's not outrageous. If it's $1 or two more, you're there's a good chance you'll get it. If it's $5. More, not for this position. But other positions. Yes, I find that men don't have as much of a fear around saying this is what I'd like to make, right? versus women who are like, they want to be liked. And they want to be seen as valuable, but they don't yet see themselves as valuable a lot of times, right, not when it comes to romance, but
 
Leighann Lovely  48:07
it's that imposter syndrome that that we see. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that. Sometimes I still there are still times that I struggle with that, you know, where I'm like, if if I get up in front of these people, if I give this presentation, are they going to find value in what I'm saying? Are they going to? Am I really the expert in this? As time has gone by and more people are like, Wow, you're really knowledgeable in this? And I'm like I am? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, I
 
Jamie White  48:37
Yeah. Why do we need validation? Before that? Why do we need somebody to say yes, you're good at things when we when we actually know it. That's why you're doing what you're doing when you're bringing such a valuable light to this topic. And you know what you're talking about? Well, why do we need somebody else to say it, it's because we've been so conditioned for so long to say our value is in other people. And I tried to shift that viewpoint. I'm like, You guys are amazing. And I'm gonna affirm you all day long. But you have to understand that it doesn't matter what I think about you, it doesn't matter. What do you think about you? Where do you want to be thinking about yourself? Yep. And how to get there?
 
Leighann Lovely  49:16
Yep. Well, you are clearly not only a great manager, but the way that you talk and we didn't even get to talk about your coaching side, but we are coming to time. And clearly you're great at that. Because and everything that you're talking about, I mean, I can tell that you're just the way that you're coaching the individuals that you're interviewing. I mean, these are just, these are things that you can't, you can't teach these are things that are inherent, inherent and in life experiences, through whatever traumas through whatever triumphs through whatever, you know, things that we have gone through, start to really shine and you know, come out And it's it's clear that you have that. And it's it's amazing. I like I said, I could talk to you for another two hours. But right, before we end, I do have the question of the season. Yes. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path, when would that be and why? I would
 
Jamie White  50:22
say, it was actually being fired by Jamie. I love that way. It was I mean, she, she literally told me, she was firing me. She's also my life coach. So she's like, I wouldn't be a good life coach, or a good boss, if I kept you on. But it was, and she was serious. She was like, You got one week to decide. And that's it, you're done. And I knew that I needed to do it. But I wasn't yet taking ownership of the fact that it was okay for me to move on. And okay for me to not want to settle. I'd also been offered this other position. And I was interviewing with them as well. And I was like, I've never turned down a job before. That is not ideal for me. There just wasn't exactly what I wanted. And so it was this really freeing moment of I am fired as a nanny, so I can't stay there, no matter what I have to make a change, do I want to go and stay in that realm? Or do I want to actually take what I think that I'm passionate about. And it was this forced choice of, I have the choice to leave behind the mindset that I've had, and leave behind this poverty mentality. And actually step into something that where I make a lot more, which is scary, because when you're in that poverty line, you know, if you make a certain amount, all the programs are cut out from underneath of you. And that was what it was, I was faced with this decision of am I going to leave behind poverty, which I don't know how to do, nobody in my family is left behind poverty. And I get to have a career, nobody in my family has a career. And it was at that moment that I had a choice to make. And she coached me in a beautiful way. And Kevin did to Jamie was basically like, No, you would not like this other job that you've been offered, and you know it, and you shouldn't take it. And Kevin was like, No, you can take whatever you feel like the Lord is leading you to, if it's this other job, and you feel that that's where you need to go to further yourself and your own business of coaching, then do it. And I was like having that freedom. And those two different mindsets of it being like it's okay for whichever choice gave me the peace to be able to make the best decision for myself, and to learn my own value. And to the point where, from six months, I was a nanny, to the General Manager. That was nanny manager. And then they offered me they created a general manager position, because of how great I was at this one store, that they wanted me to take the entire brand and do it. And so it was at that that moment of being fired that my entire career path, my entire outlook on employer employee relations totally shifted.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:10
That is, Wow, that's amazing to have, what it kind of sounds like the devil and the angel on your shoulder and basically, right, but and I know that either one or both of them. Were were talking to you and helping you go make a decision for the best outcome. Yep. So it's not really the devil. It's more
 
Jamie White  53:32
like, no, they were both supporting me dry different way.
 
Leighann Lovely  53:35
Right? The the I don't know the angel in the, I'm not sure.
 
Jamie White  53:38
But it's just the two facets,
 
Leighann Lovely  53:41
right? You had your gift being given advice from two completely different perspectives in order to make the best decision possible for you. And clearly you have followed the path that was best for you. You were you know, you're doing awesome. And you're right. When you talk about you know, leaving that poverty line, it is a scary leap. And I am not talking necessarily from personal experience. But I have I do have some friends, some people in my circle who have yet to be able to make that leap, because you leave the comfort of knowing that you have all of this assistance, being able to back you up, just in case all of the sudden the health insurance, the whatever government age, you know, AIDS, there's the food stamps that are out there that and I don't know and I don't need to know what
 
Jamie White  54:45
child care, there's food stamps, there's insurance, there's heat assistance, there's rent assistance, there's welfare, there's so many programs and then you're basically hard it's hard to leave
 
Leighann Lovely  54:56
right and the government does not put you on a sliding scale. It's I remember, somebody actually ran the numbers for me one day and thought that total package is like 3500. Or even more, that you're basically leaving $3,500 on the on the table and saying, Okay, I can stop taking that money. And I can make up for it somewhere else that is not
 
Jamie White  55:19
like an arranger career shift. Yeah, to the point that, you know, had this position not come available, had I not been given this manager position, right out of seemingly nowhere, I wouldn't have been able to necessarily easily make that leap. Right. Because it, it's a major change. And it's, it's not a sliding scale. It's okay, you've got this cap, and then you're done. And it's not necessarily enough to make up for it, you have to pass that cap. Right. And it takes a okay, what do I need to do to get there? Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  55:53
It's an and I've had conversations with other people about, you know, the government needs to change that, because how does somebody leap from how does somebody make that leap? Unless they have the opportunity that was presented? Like yours? And it is not often that somebody gets up that opportunity? But you did?
 
Jamie White  56:15
No, it isn't. And it is. And I agree, I mean, honestly, when looking at the numbers, basically, because I went from making 16 grand a year, and living off of that for two people to almost double it. And that is what I had to do in order to comfortably live and will survive. And then when I became General Manager kind of changed a little bit. But in order for that, jumps have happened, like you have to make double, right, what you have been making, and it's not, it's really easy to lose those programs. But it's not necessarily easy to gain a job that you could make more at, right? It's possible, and I don't want to in any way discourage people, but it takes looking outside the normal avenues. It takes saying, Okay, what do I need to do, and that's not always College, like a lot of people think it's college, but that's not true. A lot of times, if you find what you're passionate about, you are naturally drawn to something, and you can learn to become an expert in it, and leverage your skills and create value for yourself.
 
Leighann Lovely  57:22
Right. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard I've heard employers say, to me, they're like, Well, I can't understand why this person won't take this promotion. You know, I'm offering, you know, $2 an hour more, or I'm offering and I'm like, they're not taking it because if they know, $2 an hour more is nothing
 
Jamie White  57:40
compared to nothing. Enough to kick you off. Right? Right,
 
Leighann Lovely  57:45
exactly. It's nothing compared to the benefits that they're getting right now. And if they lose those benefits, they will not survive. And employers, they don't they don't quite get it. They don't quite understand that when you are a single mother or when you you know, and you have children to provide for that losing. That is it's it's devastating.
 
Jamie White  58:08
So it is yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  58:11
Yes. All right. So um, thank you so much for coming on. If somebody wanted to reach out to you or connect with you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Jamie White  58:20
Yeah, so they can always reach out to me at saving destinycoaching@gmail.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn. They can also reach out to me via Facebook, which is our saving Destiny coaching Facebook page that can reach me there. So those are going to be the best options to to get in touch. Well, thank
 
Leighann Lovely  58:43
you again, Jamie, you are truly a brilliant woman. You've had such a an amazing path to where you are today. And I really appreciate your time.
 
Jamie White  58:52
Thank you. I really appreciate being here. I love these conversations. And I'm so excited for what the future holds for this.
 
Leighann Lovely  58:58
Excellent. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
E-mail - Destinycoaching@gmail.com 
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Saving-Destiny-Coaching-101374858886866/ 
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-white-evangelnaturals/ 
 
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Episode 21 - Brian Herczeg - Learning From Mistakes

Not only is this guest my boss, but he's also brilliant, fun, teaches me new things, and has a management style all his own that is not only forward-thinking but creates a place that people want to be a part of. 
Leighann Lovely  0:15 
Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us, and share us.
 
Welcome to another episode, I am thrilled that today, I have the opportunity to interview Brian Herczeg with Vaco. It is a rare opportunity that you get to interview your boss. So I'd like to introduce Brian after a short time in local news, Brian spent 13 years helping a small family business, double its client reach and improve its operations since 2013. He has been working with companies in Wisconsin, finding them the talent they need to grow as the managing partner of vaco. In Wisconsin, he has had the opportunity to take his team's surgically effective approach and use it to assist clients in both the Greater Milwaukee and Madison Area. Brian, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited. This is a rare opportunity because I actually get to interview my boss. I mean, how could that be? Any more exciting, right. So thanks for being here.
 
Brian Herczeg  2:09 
Thanks for having me, Leanne. And that that introduction was fantastic. I will try not to let you down.
 
Leighann Lovely  2:16 
Perfect, thank you. So you are the managing partner of Vaco in Wisconsin, which stake their flag here not too long ago. Tell me a little bit about that.
 
Brian Herczeg  2:27 
So this is going to be a story of ridiculously horrible time. So I accepted a role to open up this office with Bayko, back in 2019. And I had a years long non compete with my former company. So I couldn't actually open the office or do my job here in Wisconsin. So I basically was, was sitting on the bench for you. So if you picture what happened between 2019 and 2020, we launched this office, just as the entire world was shutting down April of 2020. And I was just Oh, I was praying God, please don't let vaco change their mind about opening this office. Oh, my goodness, what are we going to do, but it ended up it worked out perfectly. vaco never even thought twice about opening up the office, I got to plant the flag here at a really great partner with me to do the recruiting as I tried to make sure clients still remembered who I was after a year. And I guess it taught me Lian and I think people should understand this, play the hand you're dealt, played as well as you can, like, there are no excuses, and then just see what happens. And that's, that's what happened when we planted the flag in April of 2020.
 
Leighann Lovely  3:41 
It's such an amazing story, because I think there were so many of us who are in the same boat of oh my gosh, are our clients gonna remember our customers gonna remember that? You know, at one time we, we did business, right? We did. We all came back strong. And I think that everybody was raring to get back in contact with each other. And now you have you've really built a pretty amazing team. You know, and here I'm boasting about this amazing team. I'm part of it. So of course, I'm going to be biased on this pretty amazing team because I'm, you know, I'm awesome. I'm part of the No Okay, anyways.
 
Brian Herczeg  4:22 
We became awesome.
 
Leighann Lovely  4:25 
Right? Okay, I'm pretty sure you are awesome way before I joined the team, but so you know, how did you I mean, you you obviously have an awesome background. You you started, you know, well, you spent some time in local news and how did you find your path to be at Bayko?
 
Brian Herczeg  4:45 
So the way I found my path was a very rocky bumpy way to find my path. It was not a straight line. Like you alluded to i i graduated from college and I was I was a news reporter. I did the news in small markets. You're in the state of Wisconsin. And then back 22,000 Oh my gosh, it's been 20 years. So back in 2000, I left the news. And I moved back to Phoenix. I worked for my family's business. So I worked for a small business. You work for a small business, Leanne, you were a lot of different hats, you sweep the floors, you sign the checks, whatever you need to do to get get the job done. There, I learned quite a bit, you know, you're working for your family's business, you're in charge of sales, you're in charge of payroll, all of these things. But I also was shielded from from the outside world, because working for my family's business. So I had this false sense of confidence. Leaving my family's business, I thought, nothing could go wrong, simply because nothing had gone wrong. And then I opened up another business. And that that's where I learned the school of hard knocks, where I wasn't destined for success just because I've had so you've constantly got to rethink how you're doing things constantly be learning, and I, I lost that. And so the business that I started, it didn't go well. And so that business closed, and I'm married, I have a baby on the way and a baby already born, I'm looking at my wife thinking, what are we going to do. And I had the opportunity to work for Robert Half here in Wisconsin. And no one wakes up or no one is born saying, Gosh, I want to get into staffing. That doesn't happen. We usually find ourselves drawn to it because we knew people in the business. And that's where I was, I knew somebody, my cousin who was my best friend used to work for Robert Half introduced me to some people there. And it just organically grew. And that's how I ended up finding my way into this business. And thank God, it's been a really good decision. What I learned Leanne is, when you're down, and you failed, success is only a couple of good decisions away, you don't have to have a streak of awesomeness, you just need to take a couple right steps and things will start to go in your direction.
 
Leighann Lovely  7:16 
You said some some pretty profound things in there. It's only a couple of steps away. If you take the right steps. And right now, during what we've experienced, we are seeing so many businesses thrive. And so many businesses fail. Because we are at the threshold of a major cultural shift. And people want more from their, from their employers, they want more from their life. And you have managed to create a culture vaco has managed to create a culture where employees want to be. So that really brings me to my next question. Through your life experience. You have. I mean, I've only been with vaco a short period of time, I've only been working with you for a short period of time. But there has never been an organization or a company that I have joined. And it was almost immediate from the first conversation that you and I had. There was a mutual respect. In that conversation. You there was no arrogance in Hey, I'm interviewing you, and you need to give me this, it was a mutual respect. And hey, this is what we want from our employees. This is what will give to our employees if they're successful. How you know, from your life experience, how have you developed that managerial style, the philosophy that you bring to the company and and and again, how has vaco raised you up to be able to offer that type of culture that you offer to your employees?
 
Brian Herczeg  9:04 
Those are some really good questions. So I'll start with the last one. I do not know it's perfect. So So vaco means to free yourself. It's Latin means to free yourself. And what vaco is looking for, and employees very often are people that play this staffing game the way that the founders of the company played it. And what I mean by that is we don't just say that we value relationships, we actually do value relationships. So I told you when I interviewed you when we talked about working here, I said are you know you're good at your job. I can see it by looking at your resume. I can understand it by talking to you, but you'll earn my trust. When I see you take a deal to preserve a relationship when you back away from a payday because you recognize it's not the right fit on both sides. That's the freedom vaco offers you Yes, we have to put up numbers. Yes, we have to close deals. But if you look at everything on a long continuum, a long timeline, and everything, that timeline is a relationship, transactions happen throughout that timeline, it's not a one thing, and then it's done. If you look at it, like that takes some of the pressure off, and it puts things in perspective. So that's a vehicle elevates, you know, they offer it means to free yourself. And then they mean that. As far as my managerial style, I have a philosophy on life, I have philosophies on multiple things, and I probably bore all of you with quite a bit of them, but it's just managerial style knows, a lot of people say things like, life begins outside your comfort zone. I don't buy that. That doesn't sound like a comfortable life. Life begins for me, in my view, when you can be your authentic self, no matter where you are, at home, at work out with friends, at church, at your kids school, wherever you are, you don't have to remember how to act, you can be you. And so when I'm trying to bring people into my, my work in my office, I recognize that I want to know the person bring their whole selves to work, and realize that my success, and his or her success are intrinsically tied together. So if we're not comfortable in that relationship, it's going to fail, or it's going to end. I want it never to end, I want people to retire with me here. So that's why come with bring your authentic self, try to be yourself wherever you are. That way work doesn't feel like this massive shift from go from being weakened. Lian, to work, Lian. You're the same, it doesn't feel that drastic of a change from Sunday nights to Monday morning. That's important to me. And I hope that answers your question.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:58 
It absolutely does. And it's so you know, and this is something that I obviously, throughout my, throughout the entire time that every time I talk with somebody, I'm always talking about the idea that people are incapable, or I shouldn't say even capable, people shouldn't have to walk into their business, drop their baggage at the door, and then go and do their jobs. And if you ask them to continuously do this every day, eventually they're going to fail, or eventually they are going to suffer from some type of mental health issue or they're, they're just not going to be able to, to function at a high level for a long period of time. It's not sustainable. And I talked about this nonstop. And for me to, to stumble into a role where I have a manager, you know, who has the identical philosophy of being able to be your authentic self all the time. And again, when I first joined, you know, vago and I first I was nervous of, okay, this is what he says he is. Now let's see if it really is, and I came to you and I said, Here's my podcast, I'm gonna launch this and you listened to the my little five minute promo, and I said, Okay, what are your thoughts on this? And you were like, This is awesome. I'm, I'm, I'm so proud of you. And I'm like, wow, you're you are, you're Yeah, okay, great. You're gonna support me on this. And, of course, it's nerve racking for somebody who I lived my entire life, pretending that I didn't have, you know, a mental health disorder, pretending that, and again, I don't think that, you know, I'm a scary person. I don't struggle the way that I used to, you know, but you were 100% onboard and supportive. And I went, Oh, okay. Well, that was easy, that there's no scary bear here. You know, I'm he, he's completely supportive and the entire vaco I've never had anybody go, Oh, should we not have her? I mean, do we want vaco to be attached to somebody who's going to talk about these kinds of things? Yep. There are employers out there who would say, Nope, you can't have these conversations. We don't want to have that attached to our name. What if one of our clients doesn't agree with it? I mean, if you don't like me, don't do business with me. There is plenty of other business out there to be done. And that I think needs to be that that needs to be the way that things are now because people can't pretend to be something they're not. And it's very clear that that you not only say that, that's how you are you stand for that. Have you always had this philosophy? When was that moment where you said So, I'm going to, I'm going to run my office like this.
 
Brian Herczeg  15:04 
Yeah, Leighann knows what I joined Vaco, what I Vaco and I started dating basically six months before I accepted the job who was offered the job. And in the very beginning, I was I was very happy where I was at a great job. I worked for a great company, good people on my team as happy. So when vago first knocked on my door, I didn't, I didn't answer it took a while. But about a month later, they knocked again. And so I responded, and I knew some people who worked here at vago someone very dear to me, heads up the Arizona office. So I called him and asked his advice. And he told me about the opportunity and some of the great opportunities was, and so I still trepidatiously, I went along and started talking to them some more a little more depth about what they wanted to do here in Wisconsin a little bit more about what vehicle is all about. And then I think it was five months after we first started talking, I finally went down to Nashville to interview with all of the the C suite all the people that at the mothership that make they go run. And by the time I left that meeting, I was pleading in my head, I was pleading with God, please hire me, I want this job so badly. I wanted so badly to join Baker. What they opened my eyes to was the way I was doing things before. I didn't have to always do them that way. There are different ways to do this job. There are different ways to engage in commerce, there are different ways to open up your business world and serve your clients. And I wanted to I wanted to part of it. So they the Bayko culture, the Bayko Montra. It, it empowered me to be able to look for people that play this game the way I do you, Mike, Kelly, Amy, bring you all in and just let you go, be free to go do what you need to do. One of the things we say around your land is work hard and stay free. If you understand that, you don't need a manager, what you need is someone that can solve problems with you as they arise. There was something you said that was really it's enlightening. And it's I think we should talk about it a bit. When you met me. After we talked at first we first started Bayko you said all right, he said these things. But did he mean them? Is he going to back them up? And isn't that how all relationships start? Isn't that how it always is? People chat? Are they full of it? Is it real? What's sincere? What's authentic? What's real. If you're coming from your authentic place, you're being the best version of yourself. You're being who you are. You never have to remember what you said, you never have to remember how you act in front of somebody. I'm not saying you don't change the way you deliver a message to different audiences. But what I'm saying is the message should still be the same. That that makes sense, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  18:09 
It's not difficult to remember what you've said, or because there's no there's no lie in there. Right? Because you are you're, you're telling everybody the same thing all the time. It's when you have people who it's yeah, it's that ball of yarn of Oh, are we going to unravel that next lie? Are we going to unravel? Where's that? You're right, absolutely. And you find that unfortunately, in too many places, where you go through the interview, you're like, Wow, this is going to be a great opportunity. I'm so excited. And then all of a sudden, you start pulling up that thread and you're like, Wait a second. They they bamboozled me, they said that I was going to get to do this and I was going to get to do that. And I was that's not what this is. I wasn't told that I was going to have the responsibility of cleaning the toilets. Okay, a little extreme. But you know, and all of a sudden, you're in a job that you had no idea what it was all about. You and I what I think what we talked for the first time we spoke we talked for over an hour, but over an hour. I remember it clearly I was sitting in my before I had an office in my my own space. I was sitting in my husband's office. We talked and then all of a sudden it went to talking about our children. I won't go into the specifics of that. We started talking about our children, I learned that you had four four children, and I was like oh my god, this you know, wow. Okay, well, I have one. So obviously, you know you have responsibilities that that are going to pull you away occasionally because, hey, with one kid I'm like, How do I balance How do I balance work? How do I balance? And you do you you have, you know what, just the other day you're, you're like, Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head out, I'm gonna go to a play. See my my son like that? That is awesome, because most employers would be like, Nope, sorry, you have to you have to take a half day, you know, and take your vacation time to do things like that. That I mean, that's ridiculous. It's it's almost a punishment to have to go and participates in your children's lives. For what? Because the employer wants to make sure that they're not what getting screwed out of an hour of of your work. This is the shift. This is the the employees are finally standing up and saying, No, we're not we're not. The negative thing is that you and I are in staffing. And employees now hold all of the cards. Let's talk about that.
 
Brian Herczeg  21:11 
Where do you want to start?
 
Leighann Lovely  21:12 
Oh, yes. So you know, having a cultural environment, having a an amazing place to work is is one thing. And offering that, and now employees are getting smart. You know, I left a company where it's not a bad company, I will not ever bash an employer. And, you know, it's not a bad company, but some of the culture, some of the processes there were still behind the times. And I chose to move to something that was more comfortable for my situation. There are employees, there are a ton of people out there who are doing the same. And we work with clients. That on a daily basis, we have to coach, it's a regular thing in our world, right? Clients who say only on site, we do not offer remote work. We do not offer hybrid, or, yeah, a hybrid work environment. And employees will just flat out say, Nope, I want remote. Or I want hybrid. I mean, these are real things. So and then you have the employees who you know, go from being $20 an hour to I want 30. So it's definitely a struggle. Right.
 
Brian Herczeg  22:39 
Right. Absolutely. So what I'll tell you is, I can't predict the future. I don't think many people can. But I know what the present is. So I don't know if remote work is here to stay. I know it's here now. I'll tell you as far as salary goes, pay goes, we've seen a drastic increase over the last 18 months in an increase that is like a hockey stick on a graph. I've never seen this before. It's been 10 years in this business 20 plus years in business. I've never seen salaries go up at this kind of a rate. I don't know if it's going to be like that forever. But I do know this life swings back and forth to pendulum and right now the pendulum is pegged about as far over as it can go in the candidates corner. And so companies and employers are trying to figure out how to make it work for them to the pendulum will swing back. Come back. far back. I don't know when but it will come back a little bit. It's so important for all of us in this business, to convey that message to our clients and our candidates that no matter how many cards you hold today. It's going to change. Treat people right now. Don't be don't overplay your hand. Because if you ask for too much money, the second that that pendulum swings back, you're the first person they're cutting.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:11 
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree and and as much as you and I try to coach candidates on that. It falls on deaf ears, doesn't it?
 
Brian Herczeg  24:24 
And yeah, it can't. But it's not our job to turn a no into a yes or to make people agree with everything we say. It's our job to give the best advice that we can and try to get to the parties to meet and come to an agreement. So some people may hear us and some people won't try to put yourself in other person's shoes. If you had the chance to, you know, make 30% more this year, and you've got a family to feed and you've got bills to pay. You're gonna probably explore that option and do everything you can to make it happen no matter what a couple of people at vaco are telling you try.
 
Leighann Lovely  24:59 
Yes I completely agree with that. However, I'm the long game. That's, that's always the way I've been if I had the opportunity to make 30% more for just a year at one company, or make 10% more and another, or 5% More at another company for the next 10 years. I'm gonna go for the 5% more and stay for 10.
 
Brian Herczeg  25:29 
That is exactly why I'm so happy you're on my team. Because you do you play the long game, you're looking at it pragmatically, realistically, and you've got a long term goal in mind. I wish No, I shouldn't say I wish not everyone's like that. That's not it's not the way it is. And the thing about the remote work and the hybrid work and looking for more money is it is out there. And it is it's attainable for people. But it's still work, you still have to produce, it's not a God given right to remote work and, and higher pay every year, you have to go earn it, earn it, it should come to you. The good thing about the market now is if you go earn it and it doesn't come to you, you have options, you can leave that employer, if your employer isn't recognizing your worth, doesn't realize you're a grown up and you can go leave to go watch your fourth four year old have a play without docking you for PTO. And you're good at what you do. Call me, I'll figure out another place for you. Because that's no one needs to be there. But if you're somebody who wants to remote work so you can hide, or so you don't have to necessarily produce because you don't want to get off the couch and work we'll find you to, you know, reality catches up to you. You can't you have to produce. This is an economy. This is a world where you have to constantly show your worth just did something great two years ago doesn't mean anything right now, every year, every day, you got to give it all you've got. And you should get the spoils for that work. And right now that includes higher pay, and remote and hybrid flexibility. Those are on the table. And for many people, they're non negotiable.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:16 
So something you said Vaco has the pillars
 
Brian Herczeg  27:19 
The core business tenants,
 
Leighann Lovely  27:21 
I'm sorry, core business tenants, and you kind of you brought one of them up, it's you know, playing till the whistle. And that's really something that we all, at least in our office very much are very driven individuals. I don't know that any one of us. I think we all play until the whistle. And then, you know, the whole team has gone home, and we're sitting on the field by ourselves still playing and going, Why isn't anybody around? I mean, so you you brought that up? And it's just it's, we have a very interesting. Again, I just I had to bring that up, because I think that that is starting to fade away in some of there is a large generation of people out there that don't have that discipline. Yet, it seems that there is a younger generation coming in that if given an opportunity could be that great. And I bring this up because I talk a great deal about the generational changes and and this goes along with the cultural shift is we have Millennials constantly seem to be dodging responsibility, but want more money, more opportunity. But then we have this new generation coming in, that's really want to be able to be great and work hard. But we often find that employers are not giving them the opportunities that they deserve. What are your thoughts on that?
 
Brian Herczeg  29:13 
It's tough, because there's a lot to use the phrase on pack there's a lot of unpack there. When you're talking about generations of people, there are characteristics and traits I think that we can observe. But it's dangerous snatching. Is it dangerous? That's a little dramatic. It's, it's it's tough to paint them all with a big wide brush. Yeah, so there. There are people that come in that are hard workers there that are millennials, there are leakers, that are millennials, but there are a lot of baby boomers that shied away from responsibilities as well. I'm a Gen X there. And I'm telling you if I could have made a living sitting on my couch and drinking beer, I'd have done that, you know, I unfortunate that wasn't in the cards. I tried. It didn't work. So my thoughts on it any Buddy listening out there, you are not owed an opportunity for anything. You're not owed anything, no one is going to give you a shot, you got to go earn it and you've got to go prove it. If you're new to the workforce, you may not get the shiniest project to do, you may not have as big of a voice at the kitchen table, guess what you didn't deserve, you don't deserve it, you didn't earn it, go get it. If you don't get that voice over time, then you're in the wrong company. If you're putting if you're playing to the whistle, every single day, you are working hard, you are adding value, you're making the people around you better. That's important, making the people around you better. You should get your voice heard at the table, you should get the shiny projects. That's when you realize if you're in the right place or not walking through the door. Come on. It's a new relationship, you're both trying to figure out if you're full of it, or if you're telling the truth, you don't know yet. You've hired a lot of people in your in your time doing staffing, when you're never quite sure how that's gonna go. Until after the first couple of weeks. The person's they're doing work, and you're getting feedback. Right? It's, it's tough, it's a tough question to answer when you're talking about opportunities and what people want. Because everyone's got a different point of view on that. My point of view is always the same. You don't deserve anything, you are things,
Leighann Lovely  31:19
Right? It's,
 
Brian Herczeg  31:21
It's tough, it's a tough question to answer when you're talking about opportunities and what people want. Because everyone's got a different point of view on that. My point of view is always the same. You don't deserve anything, you are things,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:35
You know, and you said something that was really, it was, I found fascinating. If you are helping the people around you look good, you're raising them up. That was I think my turning point in my career, when I stopped focusing on how I looked. And I started focusing on the people around me and how they looked and how I made and helped them. Look. I think that we all as a younger person, we all focus too much on oh my god, am I going to look bad in this situation. As soon as you stop being selfish, and you start going wait a second, if I can make my manager look really good. If I can make my co workers look really good. That is going to make me look really good. And as soon as you get that you are you're good to go. Your your your career is going to start to launch. But that concept for the younger generation coming in, they don't quite get that yet. That's that's the that's when Careers start to launch is when they start to let go of the that selfishness and you start to realize, oh, it's not about me. But it's that's a human nature thing. Like, and that's a growth thing of oh, okay, it's not it's not all about me. What do you mean, I thought I was the most important person in the room. You know, we all you know, you're a kid you grow up, you're still a kid, your parents make you feel like you're the most special person in the room. Okay, guess what, you're now in the real world. You are not the most important person in that room.
 
Brian Herczeg  33:20
When Mike and I, Mike Schmidt is the recruiter, you know, and we've worked together since we started this office, he and I used to try to and this is a good exercise for people. This is tough to do. When you're having a conversation with someone, see if you can avoid using the word AI. Throughout the entire conversation. I challenge people to try to do that. It is exceptionally difficult. You do that though. You realize that when you put the conversations focus on the person you're talking with, they have a better experience, they will remember you fondly because you made them feel important. You made them seen you made them feel heard. And when that happens, doors start to open for you. Because people want to be around you. And people want to be around you. You're going to end up being in the right room at the right time for the right opportunity. It just it's it's a very it's a cool thing, but it's a difficult thing to to try to do.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:24
And there's Dale Carnegie, How to make friends and influence people using people's names, making people or influencing people to talk about themselves and tell their stories versus walking into a room and saying, Hey, let me tell you about me. People inherently want to talk about themselves. They feel good when they get to tell you how they're doing. If you walk into a conference room and the person you're meeting with does 75 I've percent of the talking, they will walk out of that room feeling amazing. I used to, especially when the pandemic hit. After we started meeting in person again, for a while I would walk out, it would be a two hour meeting, and I'd walk out and go, Oh my gosh, I think I've become a counselor. Because, and again, I'm not picking on, I'm not picking on anybody, but nobody was having in person meetings, right? So you would go and meet with an HR person. And they would just, oh, oh, my gosh, I have to tell you what's going on. And they would tell you, everything that's happened at the company, everything, they had to do everything, you know, all of the responsibility that got laid on them because of the pandemic and furloughing people and have to negate the benefits and all of that stuff organized. And you realize that two hours have gone two hours have gone by, you barely said a word. You know everything about this person, everything about their life, everything that's going on at the company. And they're saying so can you at least give me like 1520 people by the end of next week? And you're like, Yeah, sure, yeah, I can do that. And you're like, I didn't even ask for the business. I just walked in and just listen to him talk.
 
Brian Herczeg  36:21
You can ask insightful questions for people and try to make them feel like what they're saying is important. Everything, everything tends to go your way. There was a saying? No idea who said it. I like to repeat it and pretend I made it up. But it goes something like this. A wise person once said, nothing. Yeah. That's it. Don't always have to be the one talking. Listen, listen more than you're talking. You just might learn something.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:57
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's funny, I had, I had a rough go of it when I was younger, because one, bipolar disorder, when you're manic, you have a tendency to say every single thing that's in your brain at the moment, it's in your brain. And because you're basically has, you know, being bombarded constantly with every, like, thoughts at hyperspeed. It's hard to even make sense sometimes. And I remember my parents would be like, I would walk into their house and I would literally just word vomit on them. And they'd be like, Oh my god, like, you know, and eventually it would get to the point where they'd go, okay, okay, it's quiet time. Now, you need to stop. And I'm just like, what, what do you mean with it? And it just rambling on? And my parents were just like, like, you've been here for an hour, and you've literally not stopped speaking? And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, well, you know, I've got a lot to say, need to catch up. And it's like, Yeah, but you're not even like, you're not even having a conversation. You're just talking.
 
Brian Herczeg  38:07
Overcome so much. That's a that's something like Gosling, I just hearing you saying, what you've overcome. That's an inspiring story to tell. And that's it. People have to recognize you don't learn when things are going well, you learned during the hard times. That's that's been life's truths kind of smack you in the face. And you shared something that that was that was very, very powerful.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:31
Well, and that's it. And that's the reality. We all we all learn. We all have the capacity and the ability to learn something new every day. But we need to shut our mouths. And listen, because we're not going to learn something if we're the ones talking, right. And here I am saying, Hey, shut your mouth and listen, and I'm the podcast host. Right? But that is the reality is that the only way we learn something is if we, if we listen. And I love the saying, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. I absolutely love that saying. So I love to surround myself with smarter people. I want to soak up as much knowledge as I possibly can every single day and that is my goal. Because it'll help raise me up. It'll help connect me to the right people. It'll help. Just continue to and it's not even about launching my career. It's it's more about self awareness, growth. And from there, if you're continuing to do that, everything else falls in place. Your business, your life, your family.
 
Brian Herczeg  39:48
Yeah, when you do that, which is what you said that's so true. When you're learning when you're looking to learn. What it causes you to do is to be present in the moment. It causes you to give up We think you've got the person you're talking to at the time, you're listening to them, you're engaged with them. I think when you're our presence like that, where you're actively participating in your life moment to moment, it slows time down. by so fast, you're not just a passenger on the training, you're actually engaged with what's going on. And that's something that I'm still learning how to do it. It's it's, it's a hard thing, because you have thoughts, you have things you want to say you have an agenda, you've got things you need to get done. And focusing on being present in the moment, is something I struggle with, but it's something I'm working on, because I know it's going to, it's going to increase my happiness quotient. I say if we can, we can all do that in our home lives and our work lives with our clients, whatever it might be, I think we'd all be a whole lot happier.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:56
Okay, so here, I'm gonna throw that in, throw you for a loop here. You say, you know, time goes by so fast. All right, well spend a weekend with just you and your kids, tell your wife to go, I guarantee that will be the longest weekend of your life.
 
Brian Herczeg  41:15
For sure. You want the weekend to go by really, really wipe off for a spa vacation. For Kids.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:26
My, I said, My brother says to me, and it's so true. days are long, but yours are short. And it's totally totally true. When when you're a parent, there are some that I love my daughter, she is the most amazing thing. In the entire world.
 
Brian Herczeg  41:46
She is She is a doll Yeah, she's adorable
 
Leighann Lovely  41:48
She's but man, she, every single day, there is a moment where I have to walk out of the room and self talk of you're gonna be fine, you're gonna get through this, you're not gonna, you're not gonna throw her out the door, you're not gonna, you're not gonna lock her in a closet, so that you can go and do a shot of whiskey, or you're gonna get through this Leanna because kids, they they definitely, if you're not an adults, and you want to start adulting go babies, you know, go babysit somebody's child for a weekends. You know, like, they will push every button that you possibly have, and they will push you to the limit. And I have one, you have four. And so what four, seven.
 
Brian Herczeg  42:43
So you have the ages, I've got my three oldest are all boys, my sons are 10. In fourth grade, I have an eight year old, he's in second grade. I have a four year old who's in 4k. See how that works. He's one that dress like a lion in the play yesterday. And then my wife and I thank God had a daughter. So she's not outnumbered quite so bad anymore. And our daughter is eight months old. Yeah, that. And I'm 10 years old. So it's very hard to have a young, young baby at home,
 
Leighann Lovely  43:17
you're insane. I just want to
 
Brian Herczeg  43:19
I have to say I have a very good partner my wife is she's like Wonder Woman and every superhero rolled into one. And that's, that's how we get by.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:35
And that's, that's awesome. And that's part of the reason that you and I connected so well when we first talk because I wanted to work with somebody who understood real life. And and you do you understand that life happens? And you? Yeah, you just you get it, you get that we don't come to work, because we want to work, or we want to Yeah, live to work, we come to work because we want to be able to live. But you also create an environment that is fun, that we can be proud of the team that we're part of. And that's awesome. So thank you for that. And that brings me to my final question the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why?
 
Brian Herczeg  44:39
And I've been thinking about that since you pose that question because it's a thought provoking question. It's fantastic. And for me, it is at the point of my biggest failure is when my business failed, because when I was it was 2012 and I had a business. I had employees and It failed, I could not make it work, I had to close the store, I could not keep my people employed. And that taught me so much. And in the moment it was held. I, I wanted it to go away. I just wanted it to be fixed. But it taught me to be very conservative in what I promise. And in what I promise, make sure I can deliver. It taught me that success is not guaranteed, you're not owed anything. Even if you worked really, really hard, and tried really, really hard. You still aren't guaranteed success. I never thought of it that way before. That, well, if I work hard and do things, right, it's gonna all work out. That's true eventually, but it's not true every time. I didn't know that before 2020 2012. And we had I mean, I was in my 30s. At that point, I was a 30 year old man with a business that still had so much more to learn. that failure is what set me on the path to being here with you today, I never would have moved back to Wisconsin and worked there, Robert Half, Baker never would have knocked on my door. If I wasn't heading up at a Robert half's biggest offices in Milwaukee. All of these things happen. But in the moment, it was hell. But once you walk through it, you realize all the different things you learned, if you're going through hell, once you're out, you better make sure you inventory all the things you learn otherwise was a complete waste of time.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:38
Wow, you couldn't have said that better? And you would you made a comment just just a little while ago that it is the hard times when we learn the most. And that's absolutely true. It's not that we can't learn during the great times. But it is definitely during the times when we are struggling. And if we're not learning from that you're right, it's a complete waste of time. And it would be devastating to not learn from that. And to do it and make that same mistake. And that's you know why as parents, we're it's so painful to watch our children fall and not be able to tell them, hey, don't do that you're going to hurt yourself. But sometimes you have to let them fall in order to truly learn. We have to experience life in order to truly learn the hard lessons. So that we become who we are now, you had to experience that in order to become who you are now and to manage the way that you manage now, which is it's amazing. My, my dad retired, and just really quickly, my dad retired. And when he did retire, he was it was during the pandemic, and everybody's like, you're not going to have a party and my dad's like, No, instead of that, I want everybody to send me a card and write me a letter. He gave me those letters to read. I at times was crying. I realized in that moment that being a manager to people is one of the greatest gifts, being a good manager to people's was one of the greatest gifts that you can possibly have. Because in those letters, not only was he managing them in a job, he was a dad, to hundreds of people throughout his career. He was being thanked for saving people, you know, people's homes, you brought my mother in and she made a career here, you know, son went into the business. Those are the types of things that have an impact that last a lifetime. Or meet your dad. I have met people who've known him who refer to him as a legend. But it wasn't until I was in my upper 30s 40s that I realized the kind of impact that he had on the people he knew. I will introduce you one day if you like. I like that very much. So Brian, if somebody wants to get in contact with you, or vaco how would they go about doing that?
 
Brian Herczeg  49:32
You know, probably the easiest way would maybe go on to Vagos website bayko.com. And then look up our Milwaukee office, click on our pictures. We're all we're all there. That way you can also get the spelling of my last name and find me on LinkedIn. And then my email address is my first initial last name@bayko.com If you can figure all that out, hit me up and I'll I'll always answer
 
Leighann Lovely  49:59
you And that'll be in the show notes. So if you can't figure it out, it's it's pretty sad. Brian, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate your time today.
 
Brian Herczeg  50:14
Thank you for having me, man. You're doing great work and you're really really good at this. I'm just so I'm grateful that you're on my team because I love you every day. And this is this is one of those times. So thanks for this opportunity.
 
Leighann Lovely  50:25
Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Brian Herczeg
Linikedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianherczeg/
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI
 

Episode 20 - Elzie D. Flenard III - The Mayor

An inquisitive mind wanted to know all he could about business and because he took the initiative to ask the questions, he found his way to becoming The Mayor of Podcast Town. A dynamic and creative individual with so much to offer the world. 
Elzie D. Flenard III 
 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want, generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:05
Don't pigeon hole Elzie D. Flenard III, don't even try describe him this way, he'll point out another, change your perspective, and he'll lead you down another path, maybe without even realizing, he's a creative dude and entrepreneur, a family man, a business owner, no box fits him, It doesn't exist. He's a man of original thoughts, all products have unique thinking, I'm really excited that I get to have a conversation with The Mayor of Podcas Town. He's a very unique and dynamic individual. And today, you get to hear our conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:46
Elzie, thank you so much for joining me today, I'm really excited to jump in and get to know you a little bit better, and have my audience get to know you. So thank you for being here.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  01:55
Thank you so much for having me, I am looking forward to the conversation.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:59
So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your background a little bit about you know.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  02:05
So we only have an hour. And so I'm gonna give you the two minute version. I am a creative. I've been a singer songwriter since I was about five years old. And what's funny is, I've always known to things like from a very early age, I knew that I wanted to own my own business. And I knew that I wanted to have a family. And so my plan, even as a 13, 14, 15 year old was to go to the get education, because that wasn't important to my mom. And I knew I needed to have a job so that I could get married and have a family. And so my grand plan was to go graduate, get married, have some kids, and then run my business whenever I you know, at the second that I could. And um, the plan really, really did work, I got more was married young, I ended up getting a degree in electronics and doing the whole education thing and had a couple of kids. But it was taking me a really long time to quit that job that I hated. And so what I ended up doing is launching enterprise now, so that I can learn from business people. And if during that process, I learned a ton from business people so much so that I ended up launching and doing, you know, starting my own business. And that sort of brings us to today where, you know, I'm running podcast town, as the mayor, and I'm helping other people use their voice to drive both revenue and built relationships.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:42
That's awesome. And wow, we could we could just dive right into that and make this that the whole entire conversation. But I love what you said about you know, basically learning from other people's having people and having those conversations learning from business owners, that's great. Because really, if we just all sat down and and listen to other people took the time to have conversations with other people the amount of knowledge that's available just from having a single conversation with somebody who's smarter than you. I mean, it's it's amazing. I think that, you know, I push that a lot. And I think you and I have talked about that before where you're like, Yeah, I just wanted to have conversations with business owners to see, you know, what they knew what I could learn from and that's you don't need to go to Google to look something up if you can sit down with somebody who's done it before, right? Yeah, that's awesome. So you recently posted and I just kind of mentioned this before, before we even started this conversation, but it really it I loved this post it grabbed me but you recently posted that you were putting it all out there and you are I love that tell me what that means.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  05:02
Yeah, I think for me, I've done a lot of different things, man I have, I teach people all the time I've done any job you can think of, I've probably done it. I've worked fast food. I've cleaned the bottom of barges. I was a janitor for a little bit. I've been an electronic electronic technician, I've been an electrical engineer, I've been a project I've done anything you can imagine, like, I've done a job that's related. And the one of the things that I'm I'm morbidly aware of, in some respects, is that I don't have all day, like, I'm not gonna be here forever. Right. And that, and that, again, is sort of morbid to think about but but it really it motivates me to, to get every gift, every talent, every idea, every crazy thing that I want to do, and get it out there because you don't know what tomorrow brings. And I want to die empty. I want to die having done tried every single thing that my crazy little brain cups could think of. And so that's sort of what what the sentiment of that post was, is that I'm, I'm at the point in my life, where I'm going to lay it out online, you know, I want to do some acting, I want to do some modeling, I'm going to start an action movie. It doesn't have to be a blockbuster Hollywood movie, right? But I'm gonna do all of that stuff. I'm gonna write a couple of books. I'm gonna do more podcasts, I'm gonna do other businesses, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna put it all on the line.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:37
That's, that's awesome. Wow, um, the phrase that you just said, I want to die empty. I've never heard it said better. Yeah, if we could all give our all to the world, to our family, to our friends to the world, on a regular basis, what a better what a better place that, you know, this would be right. If we were constantly trying to do better and be better just out of pure desire to, to give what we have to the worlds when that make for such a, such a more interesting story.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  07:21
Yeah, and the cool part about it is, is when you give without the expectation of getting anything in return, it's pure. And, you know, if people will return it, that's awesome. If they don't, that's awesome, too. And, and really just embracing the journey, like the destination is known, like, I know, what the, what the end goal is gonna be right? So I'm just really laser laser focused on enjoying the journey.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:50
So tell me a little bit about the journey. And I got to ask, how do you clean the bottom of a bar?
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  07:58
Well, I, I'm glad nobody has ever asked that follow up question. Okay, so there are different types of barges that carry different types of things. And depending on what the barges carrying it, you know, will determine what you use to clean it. For example, if it's corn, you can simply use, you know, those utility brushes that you see. And, you know, sweep it to the edge of the barge, and then they have these really, really big hoses, that then sucks the corner up from the corner. But if the barges carrying what they call pig iron slices, these little blocks of iron, well, you can't really use that, that little brush anymore. So you have to use your 10 fingers. And you have to pick up the arm iron, take it to the edge of the barge and rinse and repeat and then use the brush to sweep the dust. It's really dusty, and it's hot, and it's miserable. The pay wasn't that great. But it motivated me to get my degree because I was like, I know what I don't want to do. This I like the people who do it. God bless them. It was not for me, I was like okay, I am going to go to whatever I need to do to not have to do this. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:16
So right we you know, we forget the journey sometimes the beginning of the journey because you know, I to I worked at a McDonald's and I only lasted six months. And I was young but I realized wow, I this is not for me. Now there are people who have a career. You know, they become a manager at a fast food place. And it's that's that's their career. I couldn't do it. I came home every day greasy, smelly. I remember my brother worked at a at a Pizza Hut. And every time I smell pizza hut, like if I even walk into a Pizza Hut, I'm like, Oh, no offense to pizza. I mean, I I I'm not picking on them but you When you have to smell the smell of somebody after they've been there for eight hours, remove it. It's rough, but I guess it puts in perspective that there I mean, there are jobs out there that are, you're I mean, it's a grind. It's truly a grind. And there's every there's somebody for every job out there. But it really does put in perspective for some of us who are sitting behind a microphone, talking about the job versus the person who's actually physically doing the job. So I have to remember to thank those people that much more for doing a job that I just can't dealing with, you know, food is not for me.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  10:46
And not to belabor the point, Leighann, but so I forgot to add, so when you're cleaning the barges, you have to use high pressure water hoses. And at the time, this was 25 years ago, so I wasn't, I wasn't as heavy as I am now. Right? I've grown a little bit since then. And so I literally am leaning all of my body weight forward into this high pressure hose to what to wash this down. So can you picture like, it's the bottom of bars are about 12 to 14 feet deep. It's hot outside, and I'm where else from it. It's Southern Illinois. So it's 99 degrees, the normal temperature. So it's like 125 degrees, dusty, and I'm leaning like all of my little box, by the way to this high pressure hose to clean up the thing. And I was like, yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  11:34
Yeah. When that have been a funny joke for somebody just flip that pressure watch. Just watch you fault for watching. Go. Oh, sorry. Sorry about that. Okay. All right. So so you, you, this journey has now brought you to podcast town, where you are the mayor? How How have you become the mayor now? I mean, tell me that story.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  12:04
As much as I want to take credit for it. I have to tell the story how it happened. So I'm working with Mr. Pat Miller, the idea Coach, and we're talking strategy we're talking about where I want the business to go and what it what it what is the vision and he takes this pause, which is dangerous for a creative person to do any kind of stares off and he leans back in his chair. And he says, You know what? You're the mayor will call you the mayor of podcast, the way you show up the way you preside the way you connect people. You're you're the mayor. And I said, Okay, so I started to tease it out on social. And I made a post I never forget, I'm on Facebook. And I put it out there just kind of saying, Hey, I'm the mayor running for for office, blah, blah, blah. And my mom calls me, and she's like, I'm so excited for you. I'm so happy that you're running for mayor. I'm like, Mom, it's a marketing campaign. Not not a real mayor. And so that's the moment I knew, Okay, this thing might have some legs, so we kind of, you know, ran with it.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:19
That oh my god, that's so cute. That is That is adorable that your mom that she would be so proud. I mean, but it she should have though, because it is the fact that it's grabbing people's attention going okay, wait, who is this guy? Like he's running for mayor? Who? That that is beautiful. That is in despite the fact that you know, you didn't necessarily come up with it that you ran with it. You took it and you you built on that. But I didn't think about like the initial I'm running for mayor. And because if I were to see that I'd go okay, well, Mayor of what who's the, you know, should I be voting for this guy? I'm gonna research him who is he? That That's brilliant. I never really thought about it that way. Now, this goes a little bit of a step further, because I've been to, you know, I bend to your studio. You also lay out the red carpet for those who come to visit you. So tell me a little bit about that. I love to dive into this.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  14:23
Oh my goodness, I love telling the story. Okay, so I always tell people I am the most strategically random person you will ever meet.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:32
Right? Strategically random.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  14:35
Yes, So I'm sitting in studio one day and we're just doing a session and a lady walks by and her high heels are just killing my recording like they are piercing through and it was bad. So I go up to David Noel, the the manager at the time. And I say David, um, do you think that the lab will will allow us to put an area rug out so that when the ladies and sometimes gentlemen, depending on what kind of shoes they have on, when they go by, it doesn't kill my recording. He's like, Well, you know, I don't think that they'll allow us to do that. But maybe you could put like a runner out or something like that so that they can walk on set. Okay, is it okay to compromise. And so I hop on Amazon, I'm looking for, you know, renters or carpet or anything. And so I put in a search, I hit Enter, and this red carpet comes up. And I go, Hmm, I think this would be a really cool thing to do is put the red carpet out, because, you know, we treat you like a star if I guess town, and we help you show up and perform, and it's kind of on brand. And so I get it. And I roll it out. And I take a little it was literally like a three second video of just the carpet and then our sign. And then I got calls the next day from people who had seen it on social, wanting to come into the studio to work with us. So again, strategically random, completely random, I wasn't brilliant. I didn't say well, let's roll out the red carpet and add that, to our experience. It was like, I need to solve a problem.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:17
Right? don't downplay it. See, but that's sometimes brilliance comes from, here's a problem. Let me figure out how to solve it. And that's where the brilliance comes from. I mean, so don't don't downplay that. I don't absolutely don't downplay that. But you also, you also have the problem of you rolled that out. And then some of the people in the building were walking around it, where
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  16:42
it was funny is you can hear them walking around it, like they will come to the edge of it. And then they would like I can almost picture them making the decision. Like, I'm gonna walk around this carpet, this guy is obviously there to walk on and they're walking right around him like, Okay, well, you can only do so much.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:02
Didn't want to get the beautiful red carpet dirty. Right? That that is a brilliant again, you know, that's a brilliant strategic move, whether it came from, you know, oh, that's a great idea. You know, I happenstance upon you know, this, here's a red carpet that Amazon is, you know, selling. But you know, that's, it's just great. It's another brilliant marketing move that others would have not necessarily thought of. So it's perfect. So now, obviously, you know, over the last two years, I'm assuming that, well, you're seeing podcasts pop up all over the place, because we have now shifted to a virtual world and people are trying to get their voices out there. Right. So how has that I mean, shifted for you? Have you seen an uprise? Have you seen? What have you seen?
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  17:56
Um, I think it's, it's great in a lot of ways. I'm the big guys are here to stay, you know, the Amazons, the Spotify and the the big businesses. But I think what it's doing is it's helping the podcast industry as a whole sort of settle in and become a legitimate long term industry. Whereas before, there were a few times in the history of podcasting, where it would grow in increasing popularity, and then sort of flatline or or not necessarily stabilized, but kind of plateau. And then it will come to popularity and then plateau. I don't think podcasts are going anywhere anytime soon, especially in the b2b space, just because it's such a, an organic way to build relationships and to, to gather anchor content, that I think if you're in business, in the next two or three years, you're gonna be in the podcast space, whether you're hosting a show, guessing on a show or sponsoring a show you if you're smart, you will be in the podcast space in some form. So so there's almost this leveling out that's happening. So there's different types, I don't want to call them tears of podcasters there's the hobby podcaster, who you know, they just have something to say and they want to grab a microphone and some headphones and interview their friends and, and top. Then there's the the podcaster, who is building a business on his podcast like I did, I mean, I literally built my entire brand and business on the back of my podcast. I see more of that happening. And I see on the consumer level, a lot more focused content that's geared to entertain and intersect in, entertain and inform. And I also see a sharp rise in the two Bs businesses using podcasting. So I think the future's bright for the industry. It's exciting for podcast town. It just means that we've continually had to re reinvent ourselves and sort of find our place in the ever changing industry that is podcasting.
 
Leighann Lovely  20:20
Right. So you said something that was interesting. So podcasting, not going away. So one way or another you think that b2b businesses are going to be somehow involved in podcasting? And you listed three, whether or not they are podcasting, sponsoring podcasting? Or what was the other one? Or guesting on shows or guesting on shows. Okay, so now I have come up against employers who are absolutely pushing against, I don't want to do that I don't want to be involved in that. This is not the wave of the future. So do you think that and again, we I'm sure that we experienced this when the internet came out? Oh, we're not gonna we're not gonna jump on that everything is going to be however, how was this is done. But I mean, there's just there's companies who are just not forward thinking on that. And, you know, advertising right now is a lot of companies do radio, a lot of companies do print a lot of companies. So do you think that companies who are jumping on the bandwagon now are going to have a lot more of that, the cutting edge of that, or, and in some of the companies who are just not willing to change, do you think they're going to be hurting long run,
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  21:43
I don't know that I will use the term hurting, I would say, you know, just like anything else, you'll experience the diminishing returns right? As as it begins to get more popular, the rates are going to increase, because podcasters are going to realize, I should be making more per episode for this spot than I am. And the power dynamics will shift a bit when podcasts or books become more savvy, that's knowing the true power that they have. I mean, if if you get if you could get somebody endorsement to their their people who they already have their they like them, know them, trust them. That's extremely valuable. Right, that's more that's a deeper connection, then a Facebook ad, for example, or a TV ad. So I think that they they're going to experience loss in terms of the sort of like, if you look at Facebook ads, for example, if you were running Facebook ads, 10 years ago, you got a lot more for your dollar than you do now. I think podcast advertising will be the same way where now it's pretty cheap, you know, $35 per 1000 downloads is what people are paying, and sometimes less. That won't always be the case when when podcasters and content creators get savvy and realize that, hey, I have a lot to offer, that price is going to go up. And I think that the people who are lacking now are going to are going to miss out on the early days. Where it was it was more cost effective.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:23
Interesting. Now you had mentioned Facebook, so at one time Facebook was the place to go. And that's starting to fizzle out because of a generational thing. The younger generation coming in is no longer jumping on Facebook, they're jumping on. Now I'm dating myself, I don't even know what they're jumping on now. What is it Instagram? Is it tick tock is it you know, all the new platforms. So Facebook is starting to kind of what I think they said buy in the next over the next 10 years, Facebook is going to start to you know, even die off more and more and more because they're not getting the new users coming on. And you know, as new users don't come on, the information that you know is flowing from there starts to go down, whatever. It's been a long time since I did the research on that one. Anyways, so as as we've seen in the past, you know, fads come and go. Now you would mentioned podcasts would go up and then they would not you didn't say they would plateau. Well yet you said they would kind of plateau and then they'd go up again. Do you? Do you see that podcasts are gonna continue to be on the rise and a consistency or do you think that they're going to continue to kind of have that up and down motion?
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  24:48
I think that they'll continue to to increase in popularity for a couple of reasons. Which is which is the grease. The top reason that I got into podcasting is I started doing some research on the moon meant of people wanting what they want, when they want how they want it, this whole on demand culture. And I don't see that stopping anytime soon. I know that for a fact that Google is working on our audio search, I know that there are more and more social audio sites popping up. There's a reason for that. LinkedIn has, you know, is jumping into social audio. And so there, there's a trend. And they're doing these things for for a reason. This, like, I'll give you an example, my son, he doesn't know how to type. But he Googles more than I do. And he does that, because he clicks on he punches the little microphone. And he says, Google, what's two plus two? And Google tells him what two plus two is. So more broadly, audio is not going away. And there are people who who want information when they want it, how they want it. That's to the point, and specific, that is not going away, especially on the enterprise side. There's tons of opportunities, both internal and external, that companies can leverage podcasting, and audio, more broadly, to, to hone in vision, things like vision, mission, culture, disseminating information. There's all all these cool ways that you can leverage audio to, to stay connected and foster community. Wow. And
 
Leighann Lovely  26:37
You hit on something. I don't know how old your your son is, but my four year old talks to Alexa. Yep. So Wow. Yep, you absolutely hit it on the head. We are becoming a not just a virtual world, but a audio virtual world where our homes are now controlled by Hey, Alexa, put this on the grocery list. Hey, Alexa, turn on the lights. Hey, Alexa, do I mean I have I tell Alexa to turn on my daughter's room and it turns on hers. Her little twinkly lights in her room. And you're right. I'll be standing in the kitchen. And I'm like, What am I going to make for dinner? Hey, Alexa, give me a chicken tender dinner. And she's like, here are five different recipes. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I mean, back in the day, when I was young. I mean, when I was 1819 20 years old, I had to go and open up a cookbook. And if there wasn't the right recipe in that cookbook, well, I was out of luck. I mean, yeah, yes. And something else that you said that I found interesting. People want very precise content, they want to be able to say, I'm looking for content related to this. i And and that's another thing that I think people should, you know, if you're interested in making or creating a podcast, it needs to be marketed properly. And I think you and I talked about this briefly marketed properly, should, you know giving an understanding of what your content is about. So that people know how to grab that information and get that very specific information that they're looking for. So if you you know, somebody is, and I do this all the time, you know, hey, Alexa, or Google or whatever, you're, how do I fix my, this type of refrigerator with this type of filter? You know, we now have the ability to do that. Or if I want to learn about how to you know, garden, I can listen to a podcast about I don't know if there's podcasts out there. I'm sure there is a podcast about gardening for you know, gardening, or somebody who wants to landscape their yard. So you're right. I guess you're Yeah. Of course. You're right. I mean, you are the mayor.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  29:17
I think the other thing that's interesting is how how passive of a medium Park podcasting is like, a lot of times when I'm doing housework, or washing the dishes or snow blowing even I'll listen to a podcast. And I learned just as much from that passive listening as I would if I were reading it in a book. And of course, everybody is different. But I think if you're if you're a business or if you're a brand, it also allows you to shorten the sales cycle. I can't tell you how many times I've hopped on the phone with somebody and they knew things about me that I was surprised that they knew because they listened to my podcast. And they're like, oh, okay, so they feel like they know me already. You know, they hop on the Zoom call and like, hey, the mayor's is on the call, right? Because they've listened to my shows, and they feel like they know me. And so we get past that whole part of the sales process, because they already, like, know, and trust me, now it's just a matter of, is what I do a fit for, for what they need. So, so for businesses, that's an especially important part of, you know, your consideration, right. You know, you shorten that sales cycle, and, and really set up in a situation where, now you're just solving a problem, you know, you don't have to sell them anything.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:44
Right, breaking down those walls. So that they Yeah, having that comfort, already that intimacy that, you know, you typically have to create within that first, you know, meeting sometimes even a second meeting, they already have that, because you've now put your voice out there to them. Yeah, that I, honestly, I didn't even think about that. But, you know, even on this podcast, I reveal a lot of information about myself, I reveal a lot of things that, you know, in my world, so it is sometimes creepy. When I talk to people, and they're like, Oh, my God, I loved blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Who are you know that? Oh, well, you said it, and you talked about it, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I forget sometimes what I say on those, and yes, you're absolutely right. But you're right. That's the whole point is to, you know, let people see into you. Whether it you know, see that side of you that, you know, break down those walls into, it's almost like having a one on one except that you're, you know, sitting and having a conversation. Maybe it's just a solo podcast, maybe you're just sitting here having a conversation with somebody else. But it is definitely a way to warm people up. Yeah, that's, that's, that's awesome. That's awesome. So when did you know that you were going to create your business? I mean, was there like a light bulb that went off? And you're like, Yep, I'm going to create podcastone.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  32:27
Well, the SOA, so it's a long story lean, but I'll try to keep it short. So it so enterprise now, literally started because remember, I told you, I'm strategically random. At the end of all of my episodes, I would ask my guests, if you were me, what would you do? What would you be doing? And one day, the guest looks at me, and they say, Well, you know, LC, I would help people start podcasts. Because you started this one, it seems like it's a great show, and you enjoy doing it, and you're halfway decent at it. So I would, I would help people start podcasts. And I thought, hmm, because that had never occurred to me. Because my only goal when I started my show was to meet business people and learn from them. And so that's what I did. I started helping people start start launch podcasts. And that's sort of how the business was born. And one day I, you know, I wanted to do a group coaching program. And I was working with my business coach, that's theirs. That's the common thing, right? I'm always trying to, you know, get better and work with with coaches, because they can see things that that we can't see. But, um, so I said, I told him, I want to, I want to do a group coaching program. Sorry, that's a great idea. You should do it. And so I'll come back to him with this brand called podcast out because I wanted to give it a name. Right. And he's like, Huh, that's a really good name. That's the brand. I was like, Okay. I'm glad you like it. He's like, No, I don't think you understand. Enterprise now is, is great. It's cool. But I don't know what that is. Podcast town is the brand. And I'm a little you know, I'm a little slow. Sometimes I still didn't catch on. He said, and I said, Great. I'm glad you like he said, No, Elzie get rid of five or enterprise now make podcast town, the main brand. And so that's what I did. And so I kind of put enterprise now the app down as a podcast, and elevated podcast town as the brand of the company.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:26
I don't feel like you have trouble understanding. I feel like you have trouble accepting the compliments. Like, yeah, Elzie you're, you're awesome. So you know, go and do this. And you're like, Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, it's a great idea. No, no, no, you're you rock dude. Just like, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have a I have a friend that that does that too. That's, you know, always like you're like, Yeah, dude, that's so great. And they're like, Okay, you're like, No, you don't understand. Like, you just blew the title. off of this place, and everybody is like standing ovation. And you're just like, Yeah, okay, great. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, I mean, you're, you have brilliant ideas. And you've I mean, you're obviously, you know, successful. And you like you said, you have a lot to give to the world. So. So every, every episode this season, I asked everybody the same question. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why?
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  35:40
That is a fantastic question. There's so many, if I could think of just one. I would say, when I was, I was still in high school. And I didn't think to two things, I didn't think I was smart enough to go to college. And I definitely didn't think I could afford it. Because we, you know, I grew up in not an affluent household, right. And so college for me was, it was a, it was a dream. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't something that was tangible. And so my plan was not to say that there's anything wrong with this, but this is my teenage brain thinking like, Okay, well, I'll just go into the army, because that's, that's what's available to me. And my sister who had she's six years older than I am, and she was, I'm home on leave. And I told her, hey, you know, here's what I'm thinking about doing. And she looks at me, she says, Well, I will say, I think you I think you could go to college, I think you could, you could do it. And over a period of time, she no did what big sisters do. And she kept encouraging and giving me those those nuggets of wisdom. And so it worked. And so one day, I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go to college. And that's a whole nother story land on why I decided to go into what I went into. But, um, so I go back to my, my army recruiter, and I tell him, you know, I think I want to go in a different direction, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to college. And I'll never forget it, he looks me in the eye. And he says, You're, you're not, you can't go to college, you can't afford it. And at that moment, something changed in my mentality. It was like, not only am I gonna go to college, but I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna kill it. And I'll show you. And from that point on, that's been my mantra. It's like, there's nothing that is off limits to me, not because I'm so arrogant that I think I'm so awesome. But but it was too early to things because I know God is on my side. And I know that if I put in the work, and if I believe it, then I could do anything. And that was the pivotal moment in my life, really, that cemented that mentality in me.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:08
You know, when somebody tells us that we can't do something, it's, it's a almost animal, animalistic reaction, to immediately strike back and say, don't tell me, I can't do this. I'm going to do it. And sometimes it's all you need to push you to that limit of, I'm absolutely going to positively do this. And it's not even about like, let me show you let me show me that I can absolutely do this. And that, I mean, sometimes that's all it takes, right? Sometimes it's a matter of just one person saying, You can't do that for you to. And here's something that really drives that home. If I tell my daughter, again, I'll remind you, if she's four, don't eat that. She'll go, okay. And she pick it up and eat it. And I'm like, What is it with reverse psychology? When it comes to humans? Somebody tells you, you can't do that. And they're like, nope, pretty sure I can. It's, it's absolutely if somebody you know, no, not to say that I'm against encouragement to children, because I'm not gonna, you know, you can't you're not going to be able to graduate this, this. No, that no, I'm 100% on an encouragement, but sometimes it takes in life for somebody to say, I'm not sure that you can do that. For that person to go, no. I'm digging in. I'm absolutely going to positively do that. And, and good for you. Good for your sister. For you know, encouraging you and constantly and did you say that your sister wasn't in the military? She was Yeah. Okay. So and thank you. No, thank you for her service as well. But I mean, that's awesome for her to and your family to encourage you to do. You know, to do that, that's, that's amazing to have the family support the family dynamic that you need in order to go out and do you know what you what you've done. So this has been an absolute amazing conversation, but if somebody wanted to get in contact with you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  40:27
The easiest way is via email, and my email address is just Mayor@podcasttown.net. Oh, and connect with me on LinkedIn as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  40:38
Yep. Awesome. So alzate like I said, it's been such an amazing conversation. You really are. A jack of all trades, master of none, but truly, well, I think you are a master of plenty. But yeah, you're definitely a dynamic, dynamic individual. So thank you so much for your time.
 
Elzie D. Flenard III  40:59
I appreciate you having me.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:01
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Elzie D. Flenard 
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elziedflenardiii/ 
E-mail - Mayor@podcasttown.net 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 19 - Dylan Sessler - Real Talk, Mental Health

It is an extraordinary gift to be able to have true compassion and empathy for others while also refraining from judgment and criticism. This guest is one of a kind because he has life experience that offers understanding in so many ways. 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:04
Good morning I am excited to have this awesome conversation with an individual was introduced to has a passion for the same types of conversations that I have a passion for. So it's only fitting that he and I decided to have this conversation today. So I'd like to introduce you to Dylan Sessler. He is a mental health coach, professional speaker podcast, host of the Dylan experience, entrepreneur, combat veteran and an author of the book Defy The Darkness, a story of suicide, mental health and overcoming your hardest battles. In January of 2020, Dylan began speaking on Tick Tok about mental health and trauma. By 2022, he has accumulated more than half a million followers supporting his daily content centered around having a realistic conversation about things like mental health, abuse, trauma, self harm and suicide. His Relentless Pursuit has allowed him to impact the lives of millions while also developing a platform to help society rethink human connection, and mental health. I'm thrilled that I get to have this conversation because it is something that I'm also, as many of my listeners know, very passionate about bringing forward conversations such as this, and so many more. So let's get this conversation started.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:39
Welcome, Dylan. I'm so excited to have you on today. Thank you for coming.
 
Dylan Sessler  02:44
Appreciate it. Appreciate you having me on. Glad to be here.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:47
Yeah. So why don't you have such a unique background? So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?
 
Dylan Sessler  02:53
Well, that's a big question. I'll try and try and give you the SparkNotes version. Realistically, I'm a mental health coach, and I'm a veteran, I'm an author, do a whole lot of different things. But all of this kind of started with with my own mental health journey. Around six years old, with my my dad committed suicide. And in all of that kind of chaos, kind of created this persona of guilt ridden and shame ridden from what his choice was, came out of it with, with a pretty, a pretty dark perspective on life, and lived with that for a very long time until in 2015, and nearly ended my own life. And with that, I'm now here. Because of that moment, that moment kind of pushed me to recollect myself start to understand, you know, and answer the question, Why? Why did I end up here? Why did I end up, you know, sitting on the on the floor with a gun in my hand, ready to end my own life because of what happened 19 years ago, you know, in that 19 years, there's a whole lot that happened. But more or less, the moral of that story was, it all brought me to a point of, of complete and utter disconnection from myself from other people from the world. And I thought death was better than life at the at that point. And from that point on, I changed I had to because if I didn't, I knew I wasn't going to make it through that. And so I dove into you know, there's a bookshelf behind me, I dove into hundreds of books over the last seven or eight years. hundreds of videos and podcasts and documentaries and all things that I learned from and develop myself and learn about who I am and why I am the way that I am. Learn how to tell my narrative and my story a lot better, not only to other people, but to myself, so I can actually understand why do I have value, but what am I here for? Develop purpose, develop power. And most importantly, I think develop perspective, which is something that I think I'm quite known for on tick tock now, but learning how to look at myself from a different angle and looking at other things from a different angle. And it ultimately brought me to you today, by pushing myself out into the business world. And we, you know, we met through a chamber of commerce meeting and quite fortuitous that, you know, here we are talking, you know, to potentially help people understand a little bit more about themselves.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:39
That's awesome. And having these conversations in today's society is ever more important and being able to step into, like you said, a commerce or a chamber of commerce, and be able to stand up and simply say that, you know, here's, here's who I am. And this is what I talk about. It's, it's so powerful, because, and I remember the day that I met you, a lot of people, you know, wanting to walk up to you and say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm so and so. And this is what I do, I'd love to have a conversation, you know about what you do and how you do it, especially when you said tick tock. Yeah, it's, it's awesome. You have built an amazing following on tick tock, and something that the business community is still very far behind in for many people there. I'm sure that there are plenty of companies out there, figure it out. I have not myself, but looking, you know, to you for guidance on that still, you know, still haven't figured it out, but I'll get there one day. But I mean, you have truly done an amazing thing, what I think in your bio, it's was what, half a million followers so far on on tick tock, and you're continuing to climb on that.
 
Dylan Sessler  06:50
Yep. I'm up to like, 575,000. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:55
And that's amazing to have a conversation, to have the conversations that you're having to build an audience around the topic that you're talking about. It's it's so needed, not just on an individual basis, but on a company wide basis to bring awareness across the board. Stop penalizing people for being who they are, when they walk into a company. We are who we are. And that's, again, that's what I stress on my podcast at you know, to all my listeners, they know that that is constantly what I stress. So bringing you on and talking with you today is just it's awesome. Yeah, but you also, you also wrote, you know, a book, and you've created your own business. Tell me how you first tell me about your book.
 
Dylan Sessler  07:47
Sure. So I wrote, Defy The Darkness, a story of suicide, mental health and overcoming your hardest battles. And that book is essentially it describes my own version of what self help really looks like and self development really looks like but with kind of within through the eyes of my own narrative. You know, what I've been through talks about my dad's suicide it talks about being bullied it talks about you know, abuse as a child, it talks about war, it talks about suit, you know, my own suicide talks about all sorts of different aspects of my life that forced me to kind of address different pieces of the puzzle, right? The human experience is vast, it's wide, it's, it's deep, and it's it can be disconnecting in many realms of society, especially today with how fast paced everything is supposed to are. It really is right now. And I should say it's supposed to be and it's, it's really, it's my first step into helping people, right, because it was the book really is essentially the first thing that helped me writing that book, you know, really started, you know, about seven or eight years ago when I'm when I made that attempt to commit suicide. And it was like, nobody taught me how to overcome suicide. Nobody taught me how to overcome grief and loss and all the things that I had been through and PTSD from from Afghanistan and my dad's death. There's, there's no, like, simple guide to doing these things. And, and what I've realized through my time, especially on tick tock for the last two years, is there's not going to be right there's no simple guide to overcoming these things. Many great people have tried and certainly have succeeded in some ways, but not for everyone. And so this book is is my own version of it. And I think it's going to be valuable for people that that dig into it because I think it has value for many different people. You're not gonna like everything about the book, but I think it's a it's a very valuable book for people who are struggling through money. So mental health are struggling through any any persistent battle. And it's a place where you can get relatability you know, it's defy the darkness, it's not about being positive and, and the bullshit like that it's about doing the hard work and digging into the places that nobody wants to dig into. And it's real. It's raw, you know, you hear me talking about if you listen to the audible version, you hear me talking about the hard stuff, the emotional stuff. You know, and it's, it's important to dig into that stuff. And there's a whole chapter on fundamentals of the human experience. You know, I think it's, it's incredibly, incredibly important for people to read.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:44
You know, and it's interesting that you said when, you know, in 2015, correct as is, okay. So in 2015, you dug in, you started research, you started reading anything that you could get your hands on, to try to understand listening to podcasts, that is so similar to many stories of people that I've spoken to, it's, it's my exact story, at the time. For me, there were no pod, there were not podcasts around. My story goes back to many, many years prior, it's been nearly 20 years since my diagnosis. And but I, I was in bookstores, I was grabbing every single book known to man that was on the understanding of bipolar at that time. And that was what saved me, of course, my psychiatrist and the medication that I eventually, my trip to Rogers Memorial Hospital, you know, all of that bundled in, but really, it was, I'm very much an emotional intelligence person reading those books and that kind of thing. And then it was the idea that, if I can understand what's happening in my own brain in my own body, shouldn't I be able to overcome that? And I was stuck on that point of, if we can understand what's happening, can't we make it? Can we make it different? And for a really long time, I was stuck on the idea of, well, hey, if I know that my brain is functioning wrong, can't I like flip a switch and somehow and make it work? Right? Yeah. And it was the the studying and reading of Oh, no, it's not that simple. We can't just, you know, I remember years ago, in my childhood, somebody said, You have a choice. If you want to wake up happy in the morning, you can wake up happy. And that still haunts me to this day, because I was an impressionable young child. And I was being told by an adult I looked up to, and he said, and he said this to me, like, it's a choice. If you want to be happy, you can be happy. And I'm like, No, that's, that is not the way the psyche, the brain works. We, as human beings, who have suffered from PTSD, that suffer from manic depression suffer from depression, major depression, schizophrenia, suffer from eating disorders, and obviously, the list goes on. It's not a choice. Obviously, there are things out there that are a choice, whether or not you do receive help, whether or not you do pull that trigger. But there is still so much going on behind the scenes that, you know, that sometimes takes that choice and makes it almost impossible. And so, yeah, I mean, and that's why having a book like yours, and having all of the books be written so that other people know they're not alone. Because if you can, if you can read a book, and you can understand or identify with somebody that wrote that book, that one person that reads it and identifies with you, you could very well be saving that one person's life. Yeah. And that's, that's how it started. Right? And I got, I just got goosebumps, because, you know, that is been part of my journey, as well, if I could get the word out there that hey, I've experienced this. And I think that each and every one of us whether or not it's I'm a recovering alcoholic, I have an eating disorder I have whatever it might be. We feel almost obligated to say you're not alone. And, hey, come along with me. Let's figure out how we can do better together. So that's awesome. That is absolutely awesome. I I know when we originally spoke I told you I wanted to read your book. I it is on my list. I have a list. Yes. I have a list of my along I have actually, you can't see it. But I have a stack of books over here as well. But I am. I am slowly getting through.
 
Dylan Sessler  14:50
You do what you got to do, right?
 
Leighann Lovely  14:52
Yes, so tell me a little bit more about now you you created your own business. Tell me a little bit more about the coaching And the mentoring side of this. I mean, do you meet with individuals? How does this work?
 
Dylan Sessler  15:06
So originally, I started doing Tic Tok to write my book. I never really, I think maybe in the back of my mind, I intended to do coaching. But it wasn't really the priority. I built the Tic tok to sell my book. And after a while, of talking about what I talked about, in the book, talking about the book itself, people started asking me like, Hey, do you coach do you do coaching and I was like, as I could write, like, I just kept getting so many messages and, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 messages a day about different things like, you know, how do I get over this? How do I get over that, and so I started thinking, you know, I, I have a skill set, I may as well utilize it for good, you know, something that's also going to, I'm going to value myself for, you know, and so the message kind of became more important than my own, I guess, imposter syndrome, or my own my own fear of, of not doing what's right. So I started the business in March of 2020. Of course, obviously, COVID happened a week and a half later. But COVID didn't seem to be a bad thing. For me, it seemed to be something that allowed me to learn a lot more about people and ask the right questions and help people in a lot of different ways. And so I became a one on one coach, initially, and started just, you know, one on one talking through how to how to work through mental illness and how to how to deal with different aspects of PTSD or going back to sexual assaults or war, or, you know, all of these different traumatic events or grief, and walking people through these things with dignity and respect, which apparently, a lot of people have never had, you know, I think a lot of people find me, because I'm not a mental health professional, and just a person with lived experience, who has developed, I've developed my own process for this stuff, but a lot of people have used the mental health system and struggled to find someone that could look at them with dignity and respect, and give that person the, the respect that they deserve as a human being and an adult. And so I feel a void in I think the mental health system as people are who who will never go back to that system, knowing that it's, it's, it's painful, it's corrupt, or it's re traumatizing, or it's medication focus, you know, I've heard all of the different criticisms of it. And I became that kind of niche where people were like, you know, this guy gets it, you know, it's that experience based practice, rather than just, here's some medication, come back to me in six weeks and tell me how they feel, and will up your dosage will be something else or, you know, so many different issues, you know, came out from this. And, you know, I try not to not try to just be very simple, and here's my boundaries, here's what I can do for you, here's what I can't do for you. I don't expect people to think that I can fix them or anything like that. And most of the time, they don't, they know that I'm here to help them understand the same question that I had to ask myself. Why am I the way that I am? And that's what I do best?
 
Leighann Lovely  18:39
Right? You know, and it's interesting. I have had a lot of people in my friends, people that I know, in my network who have, you know, tried to get an appointment just to see a therapist, or a psychiatrist. And there's, there's massive waiting lists. Across the board. There's just huge, massive, I mean, I can't imagine what it would feel like to call somebody and say, Hey, I need to see somebody, I'm struggling with XYZ and be told, okay, you're going to be put on a waiting list. You should be called back within three months. Yeah. I mean, within three months, if you are somebody who is really suffering with severe depression, what do you do? I can tell you that there are many people out there who may not make it three months. Now there there are there are places out there, you know, obviously, there's emergency but if you are finally just making that first call, three months later, that I mean, there's a lot of people who will drastically go down
 
Dylan Sessler  19:39
A ghost. Yeah. Yeah, they're,
 
Leighann Lovely  19:41
I mean, it's just happens. And, and I and I remember the days when it was just hard to make that that one call. So trying to do that follow up call and if they never call you back, I mean, and again, I'm not I'm not saying antis, I see my psychiatrist. All the time regularly. Now it's,
 
Dylan Sessler  20:02
It's a hard job. You know, that's, that's if there's if there's anything, if there's anything that I've learned, right? You, you have to be on your game, every single minute of that session, right. And that's, that's one of the things that differentiates good. Psychologists, good psychiatrist, good practitioners, right, because it's not just about the professionals, it's also about the coaches, it's also about the people that have the lived experience, you have to be on your, on your game to be to be helpful. And if you slip up just once, it can be the difference between this person's coming back every day, or I'm sorry, every week for the next year, or this person's never gonna see someone again, because I don't trust, right, you know, therapists or I don't trust psychologist or I don't I don't trust coaches anymore. Right, you know, and it's so, you know, this isn't for everybody, right. And unfortunately, people find the, those people who jump into the job thinking, I'm going to help these people. And realistically, they're not, for whatever reason, they're not able to maintain the professional courtesy of the respect or the dignity or the, the honor that, that people require, and being able to kind of walk your way through the idea of invalidating someone, right, because that's, that's essentially what we're doing as as professionals is, here's this rational experience of you've been through something really hard. But you have really illogical actions. And we have to like, our job is basically to say, those aren't logical, you need to shift to something logical.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:48
Right? Right. And how do you do that, though, to make sure that you're not completely in totally what you just said, invalidating them, making them feel even worse, or making them go over the edge and making them hate you.
 
Dylan Sessler  22:03
Do you want to know the secret? Yes. You make them do it themselves,
 
Leighann Lovely  22:08
Right? Yes. Oh, my gosh, you and I just had a comment right before this. Right. Before we started recording. I said, I have a personal question. You directed me right into the answer that I needed to come to on my own. And I went, oh, oh, okay. Well, I guess I knew the answer. But you needed to get me to see the answer. On my own. And you You're very good at that. You were brilliant at bringing me to that.
 
Dylan Sessler  22:36
You didn't even know I was I was doing. No, I did not. It's it's the it's perspective, right. I I don't I don't ask questions. I don't ask questions for no reason, I ask questions to help you realize what you just said to me. Right? You know, more more often than not, I can I can guess what people are going to tell me. Right? It's not that I know, it's just that I have an assumption. I have an idea. But I don't make that assumption on, on faith and on fact, right. I always ask the questions, assuming I don't know, I'm hoping I'm wrong, actually. Right. Because then it puts me in a position where I have to challenge myself to work around that and figure out like, maybe this isn't this person's problem, right? I always assume I'm wrong. Right? And that means that I'm always asking the right questions, because I want to find out what is right for you. Not me, I don't care about me, right? I care about me outside the session, I'll take care of myself. I'm good. But in the session, I'm trying to understand what you think is right. What you think is fair, unfair, painful, a struggle, fact, false lies, truth doesn't matter to me. Right? What matters to me is that you're able to, at the end of the day, logically walk through this conversation with me. Right? And sometimes I have to, I have to be honest, and I have to say, Is that realistic? Or is that the truth? Is that a lie? You know, like, and you approach those conversations when you when people see that you are truly respectful of their, of their sanctity of their identity. It makes a world of difference, right? And what you can ask
 
Leighann Lovely  24:27
And you know, here's a really interesting story, that one that I'm sure that you know, you will, will find really interesting because early on, I had, I had a problem with being touched by anybody. Just I didn't like people walking, especially strangers if they walked up to me and did the nicety of Oh, hi. And they patted me on the back. I was just like, What are you doing? Like don't I don't know. I don't know who you are. Don't touch me. It was just I never really figured out why I had this. So I was at a very delicate state. I still was not stable. I had recently been diagnosed with bipolar. disorder, but it was a tactile thing with me. So it was it was the the physical touch that really just bothered me. So, my psychiatrist, or actually it was my, my psychotherapist, so my therapist that I was seeing, I was in a very unstable state, but one that was manageable. Anyways, so I'm in her office and I was, you know, upset. And she says, maybe you should go impatient. I said, I'm not going inpatient, I don't want to, I'm fine. And she says, What feel more comfortable if you went home and there was somebody there to meet you fine, I'll call my friends, she'll meet me at home, I'm going to be fine. Called my friend, she set it up, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Well, I'm going to leave now I stood up, she grabbed me and put me in a halt. Now, this is my psychiatry, or my, my psychotherapist, who has been working with me, who knows that I have an aversion, a massive aversion to being touched. So at this point, I freak out, I wiggle out of the hold, I go behind a chair, I put the chair in between her and I, I do not physically threaten her, I do not. I just tell her, don't touch me. Don't touch me. And at this point, now I am hyper agitated. She runs out of the room and calls the police and says that I have to go inpatient on a hold because at this point, now I'm out of control. Now, when that happens in a psychiatrist office know that the police if the police are called, they have no choice, but to escort you to inpatient?
 
Dylan Sessler  26:39
Yes, and 100% your voluntary or not, right? And makes it worse if you're not.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:45
So I'm outside. I'm talking to the police at this point. I said, Look, I need to calm down. I'm going to go outside and smoke a cigarette and the cop goes, will you? I'm going to I have to escort you and I'm fine. I'm out there and I'm chatting with the cop. And I said, Look, I don't understand why I'm going mind being escorted impatient. He goes, neither do i You don't seem really upset at all. And I said, I'm upset because my psychiatrist put me in a physical hold. And she doesn't she knows that I can't be touched. And he goes, Oh, that was pretty stupid. And I'm like, Yeah, but I still had to be escorted to go impatient. Yeah.
 
Dylan Sessler  27:23
You know, you probably could have pressed charges.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:27
I got there. And I was able to manage, I wiggled my way out of it.
 
Dylan Sessler  27:35
Yeah, as you should, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:36
And I went home and I was absolutely fine. I fired that's I fired that therapist, I fired that psychiatry, that psychiatrist. And I later found the one that I stayed with for the next 17 years, who I will today till the day he told me he was retiring, I started crying. He started crying. I just found a new one. But and maybe that was the pivotal moment that saved my life. Because, you know, anyways, the point being is that it is key to understand the person you're talking to whether or not you are a a psychiatrist, whether or not you're a salesperson, because I sit and talk to people all the time. And just like you, I assume the questions that I'm asking, I don't know. But the majority of the time that I'm asking those questions, before we've come to a decision that they're going to buy from me. I usually know exactly the questions I need to ask in order to get in order to get them to say, Yep, I want to work with her. That's my special, you know, that's my specialty. But if it comes to matters of the emotional side of things, even though I've been there, I can't do it. I just don't I think maybe because I'm too emotional. Or maybe I get too wrapped up in them. I don't know.
 
Dylan Sessler  29:04
I don't think I don't think people are too emotional.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:08
You're right. That's not the right. I don't have the talent you have.
 
Dylan Sessler  29:13
And that's the difference. Right? Like, it's, it's not a matter of and I wouldn't even call it talent. I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it too emotional, not emotional enough. It's, it's understanding what perspective you're actually looking at the picture from, right. You know, let's let's look at that story that you just told, right? People have these beautiful things called boundaries. Right? And when they're when they're set, right. You know exactly what you want and what you don't want. And what's what's remarkable about that situation is you actually had a boundary that you had set and you knew what you wanted from it, which is which is difficult For people who struggle with mental health of any sort, right, you know, typically, you know, where those worthless mental illnesses come from, is because of a lack of boundaries somewhere in their life. Right? Where people push them, and they learn that that's okay. But their body doesn't write the body never learns what boundaries are not okay. It just lives with the stress of that boundary being pushed. Now, this person pushed boundaries. And, and of course, you're going to lose control. Right? That's the, that's the that's the rational and even logical answer to a boundary of that magnitude being pushed, like touching someone, like, if touched inappropriately with the determination of, there's no consent. That's sexual assault. That's, that's pretty straightforward. Right? Right. And if it's, if it's not inappropriate, right, like, if it's not genitalia, or something like that, guess what? It's assault. Like, these are there's laws about this stuff, like we make laws about boundaries, and yet, people with authority, that's the big problem, right? If you're in a leadership position, you might want to pay attention to this. People with authority like to push boundaries, because they think their authority Trump's the boundary, right. That's where most leaders fail.
 
Leighann Lovely  31:27
Yep. And you know, and this was okay, so this would have been 19 years ago. This would have been 19 years ago. Yeah. So obviously, things have become much different. I mean, people are hypersensitive. I can't imagine that somebody wouldn't sue or turn around. And, but I was in the situation where the crazy girl was saying, Wait, no, no, I'm not crazy. And everybody is looking at the, you know, mental health patients. Yes. Going? Yeah. Yeah, of course. You're not crazy. Honey, of course, you're not crazy. Okay, let's, let's ship her off. Come on, let's ship her off, hurry up, get her in the car.
 
Dylan Sessler  32:03
And, and this is one of the big problems with the mental health threat system itself is because you can't trust correct, you know, quote, unquote, crazy people to know what's right and wrong. But you can trust authorities that are willing to push boundaries, that they're right. And if the if, yeah, if the if the supporting evidence isn't there to state, this is what's right and wrong. They can do whatever they want, and get away with it.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:31
There's a fear factor, I think, with a lot of individuals, like oh my gosh, what if that happens to me? Now remember, this was 19 years ago, I then I then had an amazing experience with the new psychiatrist that I found and the new psychotherapist that I found. That was that was completely awesome. But I completely understand why individuals are looking for alternative options. Right? Because one, you're more accessible. Yep. To person. They don't feel the, the stigma out there
 
Dylan Sessler  33:09
You're right, Right. Like there's there's not a ton of therapists out there on on social media talking about this stuff. Like there are now a little bit more but, you know, there's not a bunch of people talking. There's not a bunch of therapists sitting there talking about suicide, like I talk about suicide. Correct.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:25
And so and they don't, and they continue to be Hush, hush. They're not out there. I don't see that changing right now. I mean, even when I go. One was okay. Have you ever gone and looked up? A therapist like on, you know, freighter or Aurora or any you ever okay? So if you go in, you're searching for one, they don't they don't tell you anything personal about themselves. Right? So when I go and pick one, basically, I'm just picking a picture and a name and saying, Sure. I'll go see this one.
 
Dylan Sessler  34:00
They look nice. Yeah. How am I window shopping?
 
Leighann Lovely  34:04
Exactly. When they say when they see you. They've already had the opportunity to hear you speak. They know that you've written a book. They see all the social media about you. They already have an idea of your personality. And I'm sure that if, you know, prior to them, signing up and talking with you. You're like, yeah, sure, let's have a quick conversation so that you can get to know me before any monetary value, you know, any monetary thing changes hands. But you can't do that with a mental health facility. Because the minute is, you know, minute I booked an appointment if even if I at the last minute if it's not like a day or 24 hours before you get charged 50 bucks. Yeah. And you can't, you know, and if you go and you hate the person, oh my god, this. This doctor was awful. They're still going to bill your insurance.
 
Dylan Sessler  35:02
Yeah, that's the you know, how business is conducted. That changes how this relationship works, right? The this, you know, and there's there's risks and rewards, there's there's benefits, and there's there's things that aren't so good, right? Like, my business is a capitalist entity where it's, I'm pushing myself into a market. And I, as a business, I'm competing with everyone around me, right? And so that requires me to be very customer and client focused, correct. Because if I don't, I fail, I lose, I don't make money, right, and then my family doesn't get to be fed. Now, the difference is, is that I can fail, right? I can be wrong, I can bring the wrong information, I can do things wrong, right? Just as much as any therapist could, right? Differences. therapists have gatekeeping requirements, right, they have to do continuing education, they have to have a certification, right, they also have to be approved by the board, they can be audited by the board, you know, there's so many different things, and they have to abide by the rules of whatever facility or profession they have to, you know, appease. And so that requires that that automatically kind of narrows it down to who can actually fit the bill for being a therapist for being a psychiatrist, or whatever you're looking for. That doesn't mean they're all created equal. Right. There's also that idea that it's too big to fail. Right, that's the that's the risk of the mental health system is that it's, it's built, it's government funded, it's this funded it, you know, it's supported. And it does, that doesn't mean it works for everybody, what it what it means it's, it's available for everybody doesn't mean it's, it's something that everybody's going to benefit from equally. And so that's, it's good that we have this but at the same time, there's risks on both sides. There's rewards on both sides.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:14
And, I am 100%, especially, you know, if, for instance, somebody in my situation, I don't I no longer see a therapist, I've, you know, I've been at this game now for nearly 20 years. You know, I know, all my checks and balances, I know, you know, I have friends and family who will literally go you kind of seem down to Dalian, you know, you're talking slow. I'm like, Yeah, okay, so I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, geez, I'm not depressed. But I mean, I literally have, like an army of people in my life who will, like, ask me just outright now, because I've become so comfortable with it, if I'm struggling, based on the way I talk the way I present myself, and I used to get offended by it. But I've gotten to the point. I mean, I haven't been offended by it for over 10 years. But early in my recovery, I used to get offended by it, like, shut up, don't ask me how I'm doing I'm fine. You know, it was this trigger. Everybody has triggers early on. I am 100%, you know, in favor of if you need to see a psychiatrist and you need to be on medication. That's the path you want to take. I'm 100% You know, I back that I so I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. Like I'm not against Sara, the therapist or a psychiatrist that, I just think that that this, what you do is so beneficial, because I could list off three people right now that could probably benefit from just having a conversation with you and working through some of their demons that can't, or have had bad experiences and trying to find somebody who that they mesh well with, that is available to take on new patients. And we are humans, we don't you know, sometimes we go to the doctor, and or we were trying to find our new, you know, General, General doctor and it's like, I'm tried, this person didn't like this person. That's that's the way that it works. And it's hard when every time you go you have to pay a ton of money and they they don't offer a different way to do that. But again, anybody listening who who is suffering from a, you know, severe mental health or things that they need, that they may need medication, obviously, they you know, that's something that has to be dealt with with an actual psychiatrist who is legally allowed to prescribe medication, but as far as, you know, therapy, that kind of thing. Just talking through those things. I think that what you do is and enormous benefit, because half the battle is just being able to talk about it with somebody that they feel comfortable with.
 
Dylan Sessler  40:09
Yeah, I think in you know, what's funny is I don't have any problems with good therapists or good psychiatrist or psychologist, I think, I think what, what a lot of my, what a lot of my, like more dedicated clients often do is they go to a therapist, they go to a psychiatrist, and they always come to me. Yeah. And so you get, you get to different things, right. I'm a very different person than most therapists and psychiatrist and psychologist. And that's, that's important to understand is that I'm able, and also more free to ask different questions, right. without any repercussions I have no, I have no governing body that says, you have to report this to this. Right? I don't have any of that restriction. And so there's, there's a freedom in, in my sessions that most people don't have. Is it risky for me? Because people could, you know, tell me stuff that ultimately could come true. Absolutely. But I'm also aware of that, and I'm also prepared for that, because I've been through this stuff before I understand what that feels like. And I'm okay with facing that reality, if it means helping people, right. But I also have boundaries, you know, and I create that, that necessary disconnect for understanding these, this, this job. Right. But it's, it's important understand. I help people express, you know, you know, I don't, I don't always help you talk about things, I help you express things, right. Emotions are one of the hardest things to understand and master. And when you start becoming conscious of what you're actually feeling, physically, sometimes it's not even about the words, sometimes it's just about knowing that this person that is sitting across from me, actually understands that it's okay for you to feel like that. The goal here is for you to feel. And that that freedom is so incredibly rare. And it's so such a beautiful part of this whole process, that it's important. It's important to be able to sit there across from someone and know that Dylan's not judging me isn't giving him is he doesn't care. He's here, he's here to, you know, make this happen. He wants this to happen in some ways, because I haven't felt it in 30 years, you may as well feel it now. Right? You may may as well get it out, not keep it in anymore. Yep. You know, and that's my goal is expression. And sometimes that that doesn't always mean verbally. Yeah, sometimes it means in writing or emotional.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:53
You know, it's interesting. I had a conversation with somebody about the fact that the older generation, just bottled up all of these emotions constantly. And the younger generation coming in, is now learning much differently. Because we have this, you know, the older generation who was, oh, you're a boy Don't cry. I mean, you know, these, and then you have this this gap of children who grew up saying, you know, from their parents saying, No, it's okay to feel. But now you even have it going further, where parents, and I've heard this on, you know, playgrounds of parents who are saying, what your feeling is anger and anger is okay to feel. But it's not okay to XYZ. And I mean, literally teaching like emotional intelligence to four or five, six year olds. And my hope is that by the time they become adults, that they will have a heck of a lot less problems than some of the older people that are around now. And when I say old, I'm talking about I'm in that generation where it wasn't what I was, I was, I wasn't told that it's not okay to feel this. But I watched my I watched my grandparents and I watched so many people, you know, like, embarrassed by emotions, and it was like, so hopefully, eventually we'll get rid of the whole idea that emotions are bad.
 
Dylan Sessler  44:21
I think, it's not necessarily realistic to look at like, this idealistic idea of solving problem, right. I think I think we are going to create different problems course, and me crying in public all the time, right in this in the human endeavor to understand why because we are very much creatures that that that thrives on this idea of why this question, right? We we will learn how to solve different problems and create new problems. And that's, you know, that's the beautiful thing. thing about being a parent is you're a failure. Right? No matter what, right? Like you are going to create problems in your child's life. Because of your personality that you, you then have to face later on in life. And here's where I think is so important, right? This is the conversation like, because I could leave it at that and it'd be dark and dismal. here's the here's the positive part of it. Open communication allows you to solve those problems, being able to openly express and, you know, rationally validate other people and logically discuss these things. This is what, you know, this is what I think Baby Boomers, Gen X. And even Millennials have trouble with more is we can't have a conversation. Without getting angry at each other. We can't have a conversation without blowing up or exploding. Look at look at the comments section on any video. And you'll see older generations, blaming younger generations and younger generations blaming older generations, we struggled to have simple conversations and validate. Yeah, that has that that has validity. And so does mine. Your position and my position have validity. And now we have to discuss what's the best option, right? Or can we compromise and we can't, yet that's that's the goal is we need to learn how to communicate to compromise, rather than communicate to be right.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:34
Yep. Oh, wow. That yes, absolutely. So that we're coming to time, and I, I have the question of the season that I'm asking everybody. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be an want?
 
Dylan Sessler  46:56
Man? That's a good question. Because there's, there's so many, I wrote a whole book about my whole life, and I don't think I could pinpoint one. But if, if there's anything I think the last two years, I think, starting in business, writing a book, you know, becoming a social media influencer, after an entire lifetime of being an introvert and not wanting to talk to people that has created a human being in me, that has, has never been able to see value. Like I can now and being able to expose my thoughts, my feelings, my my knowledge, my wisdom, you know, and, and yet, I retain my humility as much as I can by, you know, just buying out of who I am. I, I'm not the best, I'm not the brightest, but I'm never going to quit. I'm never going to stop I'm always going to do what I think is is right. It's, it's given me a perspective on life. That is, I think, absolutely beautiful. Even on my hardest days, I find beauty in the world, I find beauty and myself and joy and happiness, and I'm, I'm still empathetic towards everything, but I'm also able to withstand the brutality of of life. And I, I'm happy with that.
 
Leighann Lovely  48:27
That's awesome. That's a great answer. So if somebody wanted to get in contact with you, how would they go about doing that?
 
Dylan Sessler  48:37
Well, if you want to actually talk to me, I'd recommend you schedule a session through my website, www.dylansessler.com. But if you want to just follow me, you want to just you know, see what I do, follow me on Tick Tok. That's where I'm mostly at. I do a lot of podcasts, The Dylan Experience is my podcast. Yeah, you can read my book. You can you can listen to my book on Audible. I read that. Yeah, there's all sorts of places you can find me just go ahead and Google me.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:08
Excellent. Hey, Dylan, this has been an awesome, just a very awesome conversation. I really enjoy talking with you. And I thank you so much for your time.
 
Dylan Sessler  49:18
Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  49:22
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, too, follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Dylan Sessler 
Autor of - Defy The Darkness 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/dylan-sessler-69a29b19a 
Podcast - The Dylan Experience - https://dylansessler.podbean.com/# 
Tik Tok - dylan_sessler 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 18 - B.A.D - Blessed, Anointed and Destined - Dana Williamson

Tune in for a truly authentic conversation with Dana and me as she walks through her path of discovery and why she is so amazing at helping others find their path. 
Join us!
Dana Williamson
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:06
I had an amazing conversation with my guest today prior to this, this episode and I am so excited to get this conversation started with her. She takes such an amazing approach to her business, her coaching and so I'm excited to introduce Dina Williamson. She is a business and lifestyle counselor, author and ministry leader. First starting as an entrepreneur in February of 99 to be a to be home for her children creating financial stability Dana changed her business name from C.K.Q. Gifts to B.A.D the last anointed and destined for many of her first years as an entrepreneur Dana struggled to find her footing she was an is excellent at crafting and designing. But helping people was an is her passion. As a faith filled entrepreneur, she stepped back spoke to God and thus found her footing in what he wanted. Hence the name change in 2015. As a business and lifestyle counselor Miss Williamson brings to the table her experience in business and how her life cultivated many changes. In the 23 years she's been an entrepreneur, she also has been a student, Dana shares with her clients how to get through the issues of life by getting over people and applying the right concept for continued growth and success. Under the bat brand, Dana offers many services to help when women find their Beauty from Ashes. Miss Williamson is a mother of four adult children, and a Nana to five grandchildren. Dana, it is so awesome to talk with you again and have you on my podcast. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Excellent. So I am I'm really excited to talk to you about you know, really your path. And you know, why don't you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.
 
Dana Williamson  03:20
well, oh, you know what, let me start this way. I am Dana Williamson. As you all know, now
 
Dana Williamson  03:27
I am a business and lifestyle counselor for the bad brand and bad stands for blessed, anointed and destined. It is a limited liability company where I help women of faith who are in business been in business a couple of years, I help them find themselves past a fork in the road that they're in. So I help them figure out why they're stuck. And one of the most I think I bring to the table in order to help women in their business is the fact that I probably would have been where they are. And it helps to have someone that can really give you that be transparent and be that friend to pull you out of a stump so that's that's what I do for the bad plan. I'm commonly referred to as bad code today. No, or the original bad clean little round table.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:17
I love that. That's so great. And I think what I think the first time that we really met you had a shirt that said ba D bad quick I think it's a queen didn't it? Did it say B.A.D Queen or B.A.D something? and I just love it. I mean it's great. You are your brand.
 
Dana Williamson  04:38
Yes ma'am. I should do I should do I think I wear my brand on my sleeve.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:45
That's great. That's awesome. So you are you are a business lifestyle coach, and you have a style all your own, which I absolutely love. So, you know, tell me a little bit more about that. You know, how did you become, you know, lifestyle coach. And yeah, tell me a little bit about your journey to that.
 
Dana Williamson  05:09
Well, then, you know, it was one of the hardest things to accept one of the hardest things to kind of bite the bullet on. I started in business, creating Bath and Body, gift bags, or gift baskets, and doing networking events. And one thing I learned about myself over the years was, I liked creating different things for people to buy for gifts. But I loved helping people to establish businesses, to build businesses. And after being in business, trying to get the gifts off the ground, I realized I liked it, but it wasn't my passion. And I think around 2007, anywhere between 2005 and 2007, I decided, you know, what, coaching is my thing. This is what I want to do, I want to see other people make it, I don't want people to just purchase from me, I want to see other people make it. And so my journey, I went from having gifts to planning events, business, networking, events, weddings, whatever, vendor events to just coaching. And that has been my safe haven my bread and butter. Yet, when you speak about, you know my own style, and this, I had to take a step back, even in coaching, and realize where I was when it came down to my faith. And I don't I don't want to offend anyone in your audience or whatnot. But it's it's my faith that has been really strong in building the bad brand, and realizing where I am as a coach. This is why I say to people, I'm a business lifestyle counselor, commonly referred to as bad coach Dana, because eventually I do start coaching on a level where everyone kind of understands, oh, yeah, this is what she does. She coaches that she counsels us to get us right. But then she coaches us to keep going down that right path. So yeah, I think the foundation is my faith. But when I started, it didn't look anything like coaching. But that's my passion. I love helping women.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:21
Well, and don't say, you know, I don't want to offend anybody in my audience, by all means, the audience that I have, I think that they know, I'm very much about, you know, inclusion, whether that be, you know, hey, I'm out there, I talk about my bipolar disorder, I talk about the acceptance of, of everybody. And that includes people who have different faiths. So if that is a huge part of who you are, and it clearly is, because you are also an author and a minister, and owner. You know, you've had other companies, you know, tell me more about, you know, that, and obviously, you know, your faith plays such a huge role in your life. So that is something that absolutely, I opened the door for you to talk about how that has impacted your life. Because the reason that we all do what we do, is because there's a driver behind it, and those are the things that are, are truly passionate, you know, are what drives me to do what I do, which is to have this podcast, to allow everybody to have their own voice in the things that they're passionate about.
 
Dana Williamson  08:29
Exactly. Exactly. Well, I, when I originally started the gifts business, which is called CQ gifts. If anyone knows me, I love acronyms. So nonetheless, when I started the gifts business, the first few years in, I reestablished my faith in the Lord. And I said, you know, I started this because I wanted to make money and be available for my children. I said, But I realized that there's something in me that has to make sure I give back to God. And so I wanted to prayer about it. And I attempted to change my tagline saying, this is the gifts business because God has given me gifts. And so I'm giving this back in a form, you know, for him to other people. And I think that was another one of the main reasons why I went into coaching, because it wasn't enough. It wasn't cool. I really was, you know, creating a gift basket or something with something that someone can buy for a certain event, but really touching someone every day. And what they're trying to build every day was was really where I was at. And so when I realized that there was a part of me that was holding me back in the coaching had he reestablishing everything so so if I could really get have you on another basis, see CKQ Gift,  became CKQ LLC. And that wasn't enough, that wasn't what I was being pulled to see CKQ LLC, then was renamed in 2015, to bat blessed anointing destiny. And it was in that entire process from 2007 to 2013. That show me, you know, here's all of you, here's the experiences you've had, as a child, here's the experiences you've had as a teenager, a young adult, someone walking into ministry, who doesn't really want to walk into ministry, you know, really, I ran from it, who can bring all of that to the table for women entrepreneurs, market, or women entrepreneurs of faith, but it's, it doesn't stop there. It's just like you I am inclusive, anyone who needs me, I'm gonna be available for you, you just, I just have this faith base, this Faith Foundation. And, you know, I think the hardest part in that whole transition, was realizing that I had so much to bring to the table, I could counsel or coach, a person in business, because I did reject myself, I did not have that self esteem, that high self esteem at that time, I just knew I was supposed to be doing something answering, you know, my calling, but I was still running from it. And so even at this point, as we're talking today, there have been so many learning components as to what helps me to help another. It's not, it's, it's, it's not, I don't care what anyone says, stepping out on faith or not, to build a business to be in a career that you know, you want to be in, is not an easy thing. And even if you've been in it, three to five years now, it's still not easy, because times change, you know, what I'm saying? And, and, and lifestyles change, and, and we know Internet changes every day. So when, I look at what, how I coach, also look at what I write, um, you thank you for mentioning the fact that yes, sometimes I forget that I'm an author. But in that same breath, there's the times where someone just like me, who can coach who can speak, who can do all of those different things in person, there are times where we just can't. And then we write. And those are the times where we probably reach someone without even knowing if you know what if I can give you an testimony or example, so to speak, something that just happened in the past five days, a lady reached out to me on Facebook inbox on Messenger and said, Hey, um, I just read your chapter in blah, blah, book. And I would love to get some assistance and starting my own podcast, I want to be a speaker, and yada, yada, yada. And I read the message like, what? You read what? And I said, Could you show me a picture of the book you're talking about? That was the first question I asked her. It wasn't even Oh, thank you. I'm so glad. Yes, a coach Daly can help you. I said, No. Could you show me the book you're talking about? I want to make sure she's talking to the right person. And sure enough, it's a book that's called I am woman. And I was one of the authors in the anthology. Leighann, we wrote this book six years ago. And she contacted me Friday.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:14
Print never dies.
 
Dana Williamson  14:16
Never dies, never dies. She said someone had given her the book about three or four years ago. And she finally sat down last week and read it and my chapter stuff out. So she searched me out. And so we're connecting, she's joining my membership and all of that. But I say that to say, to tie in, sometimes, we, we don't talk face to face, we don't get on podcasts, we don't record our own vlogs we don't do those things because sometimes we just take a step back and we just write and at that point, I have wrote this particular chapter. And here it is six years later and someone found me and that, too, is a, a strong inclination of where you're where my faith is. Because you never know, what you participated in years ago, will open up doors. You just have to trust that one day it will.
 
Leighann Lovely  15:14
Absolutely. You know, it's funny because I was having a conversation with somebody not too long ago, and we were talking about networking. And she's like, you know, I, I met with somebody, but I'm not really sure that we'll ever be able to help each other, you know, this person is doing this. And we don't really align. And I said, you know, what, in a year from now, you may all of the sudden align, or you may go, wow, wait, I remember talking to somebody, I can help that. But you have no idea what impact you put out today could have on somebody a year from now, six years from now, especially if it's in writing somewhere, especially if it's in a book, you know, how often some people come over to my house, and they look at my bookshelf, and they're like, Oh, this looks like a really good book. Can I Can I borrow it? And I'm like, sure. Some of them are fiction, some of them are nonfiction. But, you know, again, I know that a lot of people now read on, you know, Kindles and everything else. But I still have a lot of my favorite books. I buy specifically in print, because I go back expecially, especially business books, I go back and I highlight, you know, areas in those books.
 
Dana Williamson  16:21
Exactly.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:22
I reread them, I have reread what Who Moved My Cheese, like 8 billion times. It's, you know, it's a book about change. It's a book about and what is constantly happening, change, it never goes away. And I there are times where I have to sit back and go, yep, I'm really pushing against this change. And the more you push against it, the harder it is to accept it. And eventually you have to accept it. It's just one of those things anyways. Now, you said something that really intrigued me. You mentioned your faith going into the minister, you you ran from it. Why did you run from it?
 
Dana Williamson  17:11
Because I was not. That was not where my life was at that time. When I when I had two people. And I'll tell you trying to tell you the story in this short version as I possibly get
 
Leighann Lovely  17:28
Three hours. Right? I know, right?
 
Dana Williamson  17:31
So, I was working for city government. AndI was the department head, okay. And my department, my supervisor hired somebody in to join my department, and temporary person. And at first me and this person were like, at each other's throats and Bobo blah. And she said, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why God has me here. And bla bla bla, and I'm just like, I need a drink. Dealing with you. And my life was just not, you know, and talking to her. This was in 2004, because I had just gotten. I had just recently been married and talking to her over the next few weeks, few months or what not that she was there. We both realized, I mean, I knew the Lord had a relationship with him, but not a real relationship. We both realized that she was on that on the job to help me and a lot of spiritually, a lot of things that I would share with her because finally we got got past being at each other's throats and created a good friendship. Realize that there was something about me that I didn't realize, was a prophetic person. I'm most most people understand being a prophet from the Bible. You know, there's various prophets mentioned or whatever. And I'm just like, I am not a Bible person. I read the Bible, I go to church, but I am not that person. And as soon as she said, explain to me the things that I went through as a teenager was God preparing me as a prophet. I'm just like, Shut up talking to me. I got it. And I just, I couldn't, I couldn't fathom that. I was a person who went out every every other weekend. Um, fish fries at the local bar, you know, that was me. And my then husband, you know, when we went places, we bought the bar joints. That's what we were so that I for someone to tell me this is who I suppose I don't I don't agree with that. And it didn't take much for the ball to start rolling that. Eventually I started having spiritual interactions with the Lord like Oh, okay. So you're not gonna let me run from this then. And four years later, I was at a church service. And it was it was one of those highly emotional church services. And the minister came to me and said, You have a call to ministry on your life. And I literally smiled and nodded and backed up to leave the church. And I'm just like, I can't do this, you know, I, this is not. And at that point, I had already started changing some things in my life, accepting the prophetic part, I'm not ready to accept being a minister, and the understanding that I had. And one day, one day, not too long after that, probably 2009. I just said, I'm no longer going to run. I'm just not. Because I started to get into positions where I had to answer for who I was. And also for who I was, I had to help. And because even as an entrepreneur is an even as a person who was in a career with city government, that's all I knew how to do a man basically what we call it in churches, being a servant. That's all I knew how to do coaching is being a servant, helping somebody build a business, even though I get paid for it, you follow it serving someone to help them in the classes that they're in. And I just had to stop running. So I stopped and everything just kind of hit ahead. I started writing more my marriage, which, you know, wasn't supposed to be, which I knew many years prior, started to dissolve. And my relationship with God started to increase. And with that, I completely stepped away from the creative side of me, you know, as far as you know, because I'm still doing the gift side of business. Even though I was coaching, I completely stepped away from that, and 100% all in on coaching. And it was 2015, 2014, 2015, when the name changed, and God had me writing, I wrote my first Christian fiction. And I created a teaching off of even off of that, where I couldn't be coach Dana, I had to be the business lifestyle counselor, because as as a person who brings faith to the table, I can counsel them on ways that someone else probably could not. And then dwelve into the coaching side of it. So yeah, I ran for I ran for you can see about four or five years, until I couldn't run anymore. And here I am.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:05
And that's, that's an amazing story. And let me ask you something, when you stopped running, Didn't it feel? Totally different? Wasn't it? So much less? Exhausting?
 
Dana Williamson  23:23
No,
 
Leighann Lovely  23:25
that is an answer I was expecting.
 
Dana Williamson  23:29
No, and I was just and I'm going to explain that because some people think that once you decide to get on the what people call the right side of the Lord, then you're good, right? No, no, no, you have a responsibility, which means in the Bible talks about carrying a heavy burden. But when you carry that burden you have helped carrying, so it should lesson it doesn't less than what you think in your mind. It doesn't less than what you feel. Because now you have this whole I'm here to help. So I'm here to serve. So now you start to see everything that needs your service, if not your service you to refer to someone else. So it wasn't easier. It was it was okay what I've decided to do this, I need your help because I don't have anyone else. The young lady that was on the job was no longer there. Then I resigned from the city in 2013. So now it's Menzies and it was not an easy thing because people did not understand walking 100% with God, and if you are a person who depends on you know, you want people to understand and support you and Pat's on the back and blah, blah, blah. And they don't know ma'am, it was not easy. It was not it got better and even still today as things change in my life spiritually, and as an entrepreneur, no, ma'am, it's still something, I continue to walk, I walk with less hesitancy, right. But I continue to walk forward.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:17
That's very interesting. You know, and I suppose sometimes decisions, the reason we are so hesitant to make decisions is because we know that once we've made that decision full on, the work doesn't stop. It's now and now we have to put forth all of that effort, and all of that work. For me, I ran from, you know, myself for so long and accepting the idea that I had bipolar and accepting the idea that people would find out for me, that was hiding something for you, I was accepting something. So it was, it's a total different, it's a total difference. For me, when I finally accepted that people, you know, if I announced it, people are either gonna like me, or they're not, it was out of my control for this completely within your control, but now you had to put forth the effort. So Well, that's it.
 
Dana Williamson  26:16
But if I can add to that, you know, when you go into a career, um, when you change careers, and you know, this is something you want to be in for the long run, you go through a training, you have to accept, for instance, I left restaurant bar supply in order to work for city government, those are were two different way different. You know, and, you know, I had, I knew it was good for me financially. But I had to go through a training I had to, and, um, and, you know, I was thinking, I less, I took a pay cut, to come here, only to be blessed six months later, but nonetheless, um, that was 2001. And then in 2000, for less than you, okay, so you get the story on that. But nonetheless, you change careers, you go through this whole transition, it was the same thing for me to decide that, okay, let me walk in this ministry, or walk in the fact that I'm supposed to minister and this this is me, it's it's comparable to having a job. You know, you make make that transition. I'm considering, like, what you're saying about having bipolar, and people finding it out. It is. People, people found out I left this job and took a pay cut to go here. Financially, it'll work out when you when you when people look at you and they know you just as Leanne, but then they find out okay, well, Leanne also lives with having bipolarism it's, is it something that you have that fear that people gonna look at you differently? Right? Because because you have this, this now they know about this thing that you've actually been living with? And and then it comes down to? I don't care.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:17
Right? You know, I hope and, you know, and if somebody does, hey, I don't, I don't need them in my life. Right? Exactly. And same goes for you. When when they when you talk about your fate, you know, because again, I go back to you know, apologizing for something that you are something that you love, you should never ever have to do that. And I'm a true believer in that doesn't matter who you are, what you are, as long as you are doing or trying your absolute best. Now, there's always exceptions to the rules, because I know that somebody out there is thinking, Well, what if there's always exceptions to the rules?
 
Dana Williamson  28:58
Right,
 
Leighann Lovely  28:59
The point is, that you're, you know, you're on a righteous path in some way or another and you're trying to, you know, basically do to others what you would have them do to you, it basically comes down to a man, right, I you know, I couldn't walk into a room and be like, Hey, guys, I just want everybody to know I'm a murderer. I'm sure that people would be like, oh, yeah, we'll accept you for who you are. Well, no, that's not how it works. I just want to put that out there that's I'm not saying that I am accepting of this that is not a standard you know, personality trait that is acceptable to me, anyways, but no matter who you are, and you know what you are, I truly believe that people should be accepting because there are such a variety of individuals out there that that just need to be heard want to be understood. And and I love the I love the energy that you have. I love the energy that you bring to a room. And again, I go back to the first time that you and I really said, I think we had seen each other one time. And then we saw each other again. And I just remember that I heard you speak and I'm like, I have to know her. And then we sat down. And we talked and I probably could have talked to you for you know, many hours. Because you just you truly do you bring in energy that make people It makes people want to be around you, which makes sense to one why you got a calling to, you know, from God, why you're successful at being a, you know, a counselor, a coach, and it's why somebody would want to reach out to you for your for that type of service. to land. What I'm really interested is, you know, now you authored a book, and we, you said about six years ago, you'd had a what? Tell me? I'm not, I'm not gonna answer this. Tell me a little bit more about the book that you that you would authored.
 
Dana Williamson  31:00
Okay, so I personally have authored, I'm almost 50 books, and that would be print and eBooks. That's right, you you actually have a business? That is correct. Yes, I actually have a publishing company that I don't because of how we just talked about how things change quickly. Yeah, I have a public company that I have clients. And right now, we're not accepting any new ones as of yet. But yes, I have a publishing company. I started that to kind of answer your question, because I think I know what you're getting to. I started that in 2012, another urgence, um, you know, from the Lord to do to help others. And what I can say about the particular book that I just mentioned, where the young lady found me, I was asked to join, it's 20 Women who wrote a chapter on, on being woman, you know, in in that time, and I say that time as if it's a whole decade ago, but it's not, you know, it was only six years. But at that time, you know, things were very different. We were going into an election year, we were, we had just I think Obama had been in office two, two times, things were different for us, we were changing, but we had to look at it from an individual perspective, not as a an entire nation perspective. And so one of the things that was, you know, really kind of important to me, was making sure that I said my piece in my piece, how I knew it. Um, and, you know, I have to tell you that the head of that anthology, we went back and forth a little bit because she didn't like how this was worded, or she didn't like how that was worded. And I said, Look, I'll step away, because one thing I do as a publisher, and as a writer, is I write from whatever is within and once once the Spirit says, I'm done, I'm done. I try to change any of my clients wording. So when I tried to ask people not to do the same thing for me, because once you make it what you want, it becomes not my story, right? Once we, we got that part out. She was like, You know what, you're right. And so this chapter that I wrote that this young lady found me, I feel, you know, I after talking to her, I had to humbly sit down and say, Lord, I thank you because I had to argue the fact that this had to be my story, this one chapter 1000 2000 words, Adam, it had to be my story. Otherwise, it was not going to I would, I would totally bow out. And, you know, as a as a writer, as a writer. What I tell people, let me say this as a publisher, when I tell potential clients, if you're looking for a best seller, I am not your company. I am looking, you know what I mean? Because if you're writing to get your piece out to the masses, and let's get it out to the masses, the masses for you might be one on 100. You have to be okay with one or 100. Because if you're looking to sell more books you can get I don't even think people understand what best selling means. It doesn't mean it's the greatest. It means that for however many numbers you sold, you became a best seller. If you want to reach the masses with the meat, then I'm your girl. But that's that's where I am. You know what, even in writing, even in the career choices that I've had, and even in being bad coach Dana, it is the reality of being the individual. Right? Not being what everybody wants you to be.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:14
Right. And that's what authenticity is. It's it's digging in and saying, I am who I am. I'm not going to hold who you want me to be, and then be. And that's absolutely why I love you. That's absolutely why you and I, you know, hit it off, because you walked into the room with your own personal swagger. And I totally loved it. And that, that's the kind of people that I like to talk to on this podcast. It's because of the your authenticity. So we are coming. So I have, we're coming to time, I have one more question for you. The question of the season, if you could pin an end, you know, we've covered so much ground, so I'm going to be interested to hear what you have to say on this one. But if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or your career path. When would that be and why?
 
Dana Williamson  36:13
Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, it would be, May 15 2021. And I'll tell you what happened.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:24
That's so it's all specific.
 
Dana Williamson  36:28
I'll tell you, it's specific because it kind of ties in how we even originally met. If this hadn't happened. You and I would have never met. Okay. So in May of 2021, I went to cigar week in Houston. And I went just to go, I need to travel, I need to get out I needed to do the things that I knew I needed to do as an entrepreneur, not to just to have fun, but as an entrepreneur. So I went to learn as well as I went to grow, you know, as my circle of friends, let's just say that. And on the last day, I met a lady who I would like to pin as even a social media influencer. I met her we vibed very well. And when I say we vibed very well, she pulled out that I was a minister or spiritual person, without me having to tell her. Um, she actually mentioned to me within the first hour of us meeting. We're at cigar week. She smokes cigars. Now? I do. I do not because because I was interested in the lifestyle. Nonetheless, that's a whole nother podcast. nonetheless. When I left there, she contacted me and she became my coach. And I got to learn more about the culture, more about who I was, and who I was still holding back from. As far as an entrepreneur as far as coach Dana. Over the months time, I started to acclimate myself in the lifestyle, looking at the different things, finding out what's going on in my own city. In regards to that, and I met a I met a few great people. But I met two great people who introduced me to two great, two other great people. One of the introductions was at the event that you and I met at the gentleman that had that event basically introduced us. And, um, it was a cigar networking event, cigars and everything. And as a minister that has that. I've gotten a lot of backlash on that. Okay, that's all. But cuz that's supposed to be taboo, or whatever, whatever. I don't even know. But I had another minister, tell me Give me a scripture to give people and I'm just like, I never thought of that. Nonetheless, if I hadn't been introduced to the lifestyle, if I hadn't gotten into my own prayer closet and have my own conversation with the Lord about this. If I hadn't allowed myself to be open to possibilities, I wouldn't have realized that everything that I've talked about, as far as being back home today, no, or the original backplane of the roundtable was being held back because I was holding myself back from all of the possibilities that were out there that were outside of traditional church that was outside of places that I don't go to clubs or anything like that. You follow me? People, people feel as if, in order to be in the lifestyle you have to be in this lifestyle. This, this whole going out partying and all of that, and it isn't that. And I had to have my own conversation with God to realize that. And I had to be open to whatever the possibilities are. Leighann, can I tell you, I've ministered more. In the past year, we'll know, in the past eight months to people, whether at a cigar lounge or at a cigar event than I did prior to that. And that really changed me in understanding what I hold. From time to time people will see on social media, especially they asked as women, you know, what do you bring to the table? And I realized in the past eight months, maybe I don't bring anything to the table, I build the table. You know,
 
Leighann Lovely  40:54
That's awesome. And here's here's, you know, people automatically assume you know that. And before I say this, first of all, every time I go to a funeral or a wedding and the minister or the the pastor is invited to the party afterwards, he's got a drink in his hands. After you know, the after party. It's a common thing. Okay. I mean, I just recently went to a funeral. And the pastor came to the after party, and had a couple of drinks. So you know, that's not taboo. At least not in the circles that I've been in. I mean, it's not, there was nothing wrong with now do I see them get drunk? No. I mean, that probably would be taboo. but no cigar smoking is has been long as a pastime that one, men have always, you know, you always see the typical, you know, cigar smoker is the old guy sitting in a chair somewhere, rocking slowly, with a glass of whiskey, which is now not were not what you see in a cigar smoker, I've seen a ton of women who will sit back and smoke a cigar and have a glass of whiskey or a beer and, and enjoy it. Now, to your point in what you were saying about, you've done more ministry with these people, these individuals that you have met in the last eight months, when you have a relaxed crowd having a conversation with a cigar, and a drink in their hand, they are more open to have conversations about a wide variety of topics. They're in their environment, they're open to conversations that you have a captive audience. And you know what, these people are amazing people who want to have these in depth conversations, they are most likely individuals who are also not necessarily attending church on a regular basis because people shun them. Because how dare you smoke a cigar and drink a glass of whiskey on a regular basis. This is a perfect audience. And it's forward. It's forward thinking for a church to say, hey, instead of always making the people come to you go to the people.
 
Dana Williamson  43:20
That's what the Bible says.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:22
Correct? If you you know, and you and I have this conversation, I am not a wildly religious person. I'm a very spiritual person in nature. i Yes. And and I do not believe that you need to go to a church in order to you know, praise your God in order to be a religious individual. Exactly. I am always willing to have a conversation will not always please don't, you know, hit me up in a random place about politics religion, or but in the right setting. I'm I'm I am always open to talking about spiritual things as long as it is not with an individual that is completely one sided and is trying to push their their beliefs on me. Agenda. Yeah, you're right. You're right. But if you're, if you're open to having a conversation like that, and open to hearing all different sides of it, I love those conversations. So your answer was brilliant. And I applaud you for standing by who you are as a person. Thank you. So this has been an awesome conversation. Is it has it has been so I thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. You are so welcome. I again. I'm so glad to have been here. This has been great. This has been great. If anybody wants to reach out to you to talk to you about you know, your coaching or anything. How would they go about doing that?
 
Dana Williamson  44:54
Well, I you know what, I am all over social media. For one I probably shouldn't be but I have. All over social media, you can always find me as B.A.D Queen B, that's B.A.BqueenD Or you just email me at info@daymarie.com again you can find the bad brand on Facebook on Instagram. Listen, I'm even on Tik Tok. I am also on LinkedIn as Dana Williamson. And but otherwise, yeah, you can definitely call me. I'm sorry, email me at info at bad day Murray calm or just find me on social media. I am more willing to talk or introduce you to what I have available with my sub services. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I've had a wonderful time.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:51
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
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Email - ckqgifts1@yahoo.com
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Episode 17 - Endotype Formula - Laura Hullemann

Laura, Creator of the Endotype Formula and Author of My Walk, My Way is such an amazing woman with so much to offer. Join me for this amazing conversation to learn more.  
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business Owners, and Employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:05
I'm really excited to have my guests with me today. Not only she wild, wildly creative, successful, she's an inspiration. Laura Hulleman, the creator of the endo type formula and author of my walk my way, is a powerful truth teller. Her superpower is helping people believe that being themselves as they are designed is more than enough. Once a person is grounded in their identity, they can begin to operate from their zone of genius and experience more peace every day. Laura spent years researching and recognizing the patterns that create the endo type formula, the most comprehensive and advanced personality assessment available at this time. Right now she takes coaches and entrepreneurs on an adventure into their endo type formula to improve their businesses embody their brand identity and attract their ideal clientele. She and her boys live in a tree house in Wisconsin, where they enjoy cozy fires in the winter and camping, fishing and kayaking all summer long. Laura, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. I've been really excited to talk with you. I just think that you have such an awesome, well, I think that your product, your this Endotype Formula is just awesome. And I'm excited to hear about it. So thank you for coming on and talking with me today.
 
Laura Hulleman  02:39
I'm really happy to be here. Love to talk to HR people about about the Endotype Formula, what it can do for them, and just the business in general.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:49
So why don't you start off by just telling me a little bit about yourself, your background, that type of stuff.
 
Laura Hulleman  02:54
Sure, So I have been serially self employed for the majority of my life, somebody asked me today sounds like you've been in business a while. It's like, Well, I started my first business when I was 18. So you know, three years. That's a lie. Um, but I, you know, for the most part have been self employed. I've worked inside corporations and companies as well. But I found out that that didn't really suit me quite as much, I'm a little bit more independent and creative and want to kind of do my own thing. This has really been one of the first years in the last probably nine months that I've gotten to understand that I'm moving from self employment now to business ownership, which is a whole different can of worms and, and having to learn some of that detachment and some of that, so I'm learning many, many new things as I go. My background. I was a life coach and fitness coach for a long period of time. And at one point, I loved personality assessments. I loved studying people. It always fascinated me to figure out even even way back when I was waitressing in my 20s, right, you'd walk up to a table. And if you wanted to maximize your tips, you had to figure out who was in charge of that table. Mm hmm. Because that's the person you defer to as the waitstaff if it's the lady who's in charge of the table. If you show too much interest to that man, your tips go down, and vice versa. So studying people has always been fascinating to me and just seeing how different people work. So personality assessments were a big part of that. And when six years ago, myself and a another couple personality type junkies got together and started comparing systems. I like this one. I like that one. What ended up starting to happen And I was, we started to see where overlap happened, where the flaws in each system happened. And the idea that this was potentially creating something new started to rise to the surface. And so I, we stuck with it, I stuck with it. And the next rate researcher, the next rate person, the next rate conference would come along. And over the last six years, I've developed the Endotype Formula, which I think is a personality assessment that's far, far beyond anything else out there.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:36
So wow, first of all, that that's awesome on that one, that you stuck with it, because there are so many personality assessments out there, but they're all slightly different in the way that they look at, you know, the person the way that they, you know, identify different traits. And in the idea behind it is to try to understand that, you know, the individual in the way they learn or the way they they understand information, the way that you're supposed to teach them, if they're going to be a fit for the culture, that type of thing. But something that you that you said really stood out to me, because I remember, as a kid, when we would go out to dinner, when you said, you know, as a waitress, you have to immediately try to identify, you know, the individual, the head of the table, or whoever that might be the payer at the table. And that that is psychology, 100% Psychology. 101 is really identifying your target target audience, and then not paying too much attention to one person because you don't want to alienate so. So here's, here's an interesting story, because my dad was always the person who, you know, would lay down the credit card, that doesn't mean that he's the one who has all of the money. It doesn't. I mean, my parents were both brought in money, they both worked. He just happened to be the one who had laid on the credit card. And I remember once the waitress, putting her hands on my dad's shoulder and making a couple of comments, and she walked away and my, my, my dad's wife said, Wow, she's really laying it on thick. She thinks that he works, and I don't. And I went, Well, why does it matter? And she goes, she is now insulting me. And thinks that she's going to get a really big tip, because she's cozying up to who she thinks is the moneymaker. And I'm like, and and I think I was maybe 14 or 15. So I was old enough to understand that. But you're right. psychology behind that is yeah, you you want to cozy up to the moneymaker to get the bigger tip. But that, in turn, actually, you know, hurt her because at that point, my dad was seeing that, you know, his wife was doing Wait a second. No, that that's not that's inappropriate. Now you've overstepped your bounds. So yeah, the psychology behind individual the psychology behind people is, so interesting. And you clearly you have that interest from a very young age. Yeah. So this is this has not been just a recent journey. This has been a lifelong study of individuals. And you mentioned that you were what you work you were owner of what impact? No, yeah. Impact fitness.
 
Laura Hulleman  08:26
Yep, that was my gym.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:27
And then you did some what? Coaching you were a retreat facilitator. Yep. And, and you mentioned that you've kind of made that jump from a independence, but now to really truly a business owner,
 
Laura Hulleman  08:42
Right. Yeah. And, and, you know, and all the way along, if you would have asked me, I would have told you guys, I own my own business, like, right, just off the shoulders, right. I own my own business. But I was self employed. I was still doing the trading time for money. And it was all me, I break a leg, I'm done. You know, like, I hurt myself, I get sick, I'm dead. And at this point being so so then I started to see oh, that's not how I can actually grow this company. And this idea, right? I feel like I'm the steward of this really great tool. And this really, this tool has so many, many, many applications, that what I now need to do is I need to take a step back and away even from some of the things that I love. I love being the coach right and doing life coaching and facilitating and whatever. I love all that. And it's not my job right now. My job right now is to take this step back and become more of the educator, more of the information distributor working with people who do coaching in these different areas. So life coaching, HR Mark Marketing, whatever it is helping them to understand how the endo type formula can apply inside of their specialty, help them do their job better. Because that gets this idea out there in a way that alone, I could never have done. Right, I'm I can only talk to so many people a day, right? But now if I make a little army of fans, a little army of people equipped using the endo type formula who are out there, whether they're talking about it directly, or they're just using it indirectly, in what they do, it is able to do the job that it's here to do, which is help people be more of who they are, but understand that they don't need to be more than who they are. And, and just get that out there. That message and that understanding, get that out there. I have to take a different role inside of my company to be able to do so.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:55
Right, Yeah, so you've made that jump from independence to actual business owner? And having employees?
 
Laura Hulleman  11:05
Yeah, I've brought on a project manager, I am working with kind of system builder. You know, like that's she build systems. That's what she does. To take care of my systems. For me, I have somebody that I can refer I can. She's my administrative assistant, right? I call a color my Kenya girl. Can you do this? And can you do this for me? So my Kenya girl. And then I actually hired my teenager, my 17 year old, who who sits right here by me during the day, he does virtual schooling, and so and he has an eye for design. So the majority of my social media, graphics and things, I'm like, Hey, can you put this up? Yep, sure can. So I have multiple people that I'm now working to be able to go, Okay, how do I not do it all? And that was something I had to train my brain to do. We, my project manager and I set up a Friday afternoon question that she has to Marco Polo and asked me, What did you want to get done this week? Or hope to get done this week? That didn't? Because on Monday, I entered the workweek dreamy eyed and excited, right? Oh, it's a brand new week, right? can get so much stuff done. But on Friday, I'm in this like, that's right. I was supposed to send out that contract. Oh, that's right. I was supposed to follow up on this email. And, and I've done it myself for so long. Mm hmm. That I don't, I'm not in the pattern or the habit of delegating. And so that's the pattern and the habit that I need someone to help me create. And that Friday question allows me to go, oh, maybe that's not if that's gotten put off more than one week? Maybe that's not my job who could do this job? And what do they need to be able to be equipped to do this job? So looking for those patterns of delegation? Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  13:07
Yeah. And that's, and that's awesome that you are able to able to do that and discover that in yourself, because most people are not. Most people will continue that cycle over and over and over. And that's insanity. Right, literally the definition of insanity. So, here's what I'm sure everybody is wondering. So what is the endo type formula? explain this a little bit more in detail to to me so and into our audience so that we understand how it is different than your typical, you know, disc assessments to your typical, you know, how is that different?
 
Laura Hulleman  13:50
Yeah. So, you know, in, in HR and in with most personality assessments, right, there's Strength Finders, there's Myers Briggs, there's disc, those are kind of the tops. There's a few other ones out there that are pretty cool, too. But they're usually testing for one thing. Myers Briggs is trying to assess how do you think which is very helpful. Disc tends to look for those patterns in how you behave. Are you more direct, are you more influential? And then I can I can change my approach to be able to meet you where you're at? Strengths Finder finders, what do you know how to do? Well? They're looking for a thing Enneagram it looks for kind of like, what are your cravings? What are your emotional makeups what the Intertape formula does is it recognizes the fact that we are not one. We are all of those things. We are not just thinkI beings we are not just feely beings. We are Are all of them. And so our quiz tests how you think. But those thought patterns based on Jung in cognitive theory, right break based on those thought functions connect to for each individual specific energetic cravings, kind of like what Enneagram talks about, but it connects in a predictable way. So I can test how you think. And then I know what you crave. And I and what your strengths are what you do so easily. It's like breathing, you put that out into the world, knowing that I now have an inside look at how you work, to be able to match my marketing to you to be able to match my offers to you to be able to satiate those inner cravings that you have that here's the thing as humans, we kind of suck at self assessment or at self awareness, I'm sorry. And so I don't even know what my own cravings are. Right? So, for instance, my dad, his endo type has a big craving for worth. He wants to feel worthy. In our culture, and especially in our culture, I think for men, even more worthiness has been connected to money. So my dad thinks that he needs to get paid what he's worth, right. And so he chases the money. He chased the money in his career. What he really wanted was to be valued, and to be valued in a very specific way he wanted to be heard, which is also part of his I know type, he has a craving to be able to make sure that you're hearing what he's saying. If his company knew that, if any of the last five companies he was with because he had about a two year cycle, before he was headhunted into another company, as a, he was a computer network security person. So he was highly, highly headhunted. And he was always offered more money, and a bigger, you know, bigger benefits package. And away he went, there he went, what he wanted was to feel worthy, if they had made him feel valued in the way that he needed to be, he would have stayed, he never would have gone searching after the money. Because that craving would have been satiated from the inside. So in in any kind of a relationship, whether that's in our personal relationships, or that in our work relationships, there are these there are these things. So worthiness, significance, being being who we are, right identity is a big craving for me. Having connection, feeling like you belong, all of these things are part of everyone's endo type formula, either as a craving, or as something we put out into the world really, really easily and do very well on our possibility side of our endo type. So, right, that's a that's a very broad picture. But that's why I say it, it, it's, yeah, we're able to predict how you think once you answer those five questions, I can tell you the same stuff that Myers Briggs tells you. But we have so much more, I can understand who you are as far as the DISC profile. But we can get target, not just this big, you know, 100 100 foot viewpoint that disc gets, we can get right down into the details of it all.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:56
And that's really interesting, especially in a world like, that we're living in today, because people, it's not just about bringing somebody in and understanding how we're going to train them or what their personality type is. It's today it really is about the drivers of, of what drives somebody, whether that be family, whether that be feeling valued, whether that be I mean, and that is the world we're living in today. That's the shift that over the last two years we have seen the world take people more than ever are using their I don't want to say feelings but it is it comes down to there. I no longer want to feel like a number.
 
Laura Hulleman  19:50
Correct? Yeah. Especially in this post COVID world where, right? When we were just nine to five in or you know just Do you go to work, you go to work, you go to work, you go to work, we didn't have a lot of time to sit down and reflect and go, What do I really want out of this life? Right, but COVID made everybody sit on their butt and go, Oh, this is what it's like not to go into work today. Hmm. Interesting. Is this really what I want?
 
Leighann Lovely  20:24
And it's not even it became, oh, wait, I can work from my couch and be just as productive. And I'm not saying that everybody is just as productive. This is the, you know, the new argument that everybody's having, can employees be as productive from home? Do you know not everybody is on that train. We talked with employees every day, I want to go into the office. Great. That's, that is that person's preference. But there are hundreds of 1000s of people who say, I can be just as productive. Sitting at home, on my couch at my kitchen table. I mean, there are hundreds of 1000s of people who have now created a room in their house that is just dedicated to having an office. Yep. For very inexpensive i i created the Office at my my home for pennies. I mean, I converted cabinet into a desk. I mean, yeah. So the the feelings behind that if you could literally pull up somebody's profile, before you go into their three months, six months review and say, Okay, this is this is this person's, the driver for this person is to feel valued. Before you have that conversation, and cater your review towards that and then ask them so what what are your thoughts? We want to know? You know, do you think that we could do XYZ better here? And to actually have them be heard? To have them feel valued at the company, the retention would skyrocket at some of these companies? Yep. And yeah, that's, that's awesome. And you can't You're right, you cannot do that with with disc, assess. I mean, I've taken as a salesperson, every time I you know, every time I shouldn't say I've taken hundreds, you know, but every time I've applied or when I was applying to, as soon as you know, you go through the initial interview, um, we're gonna send you this a DISC assessment, or we're gonna send you this Yep. This assessment. It's like I've taken I don't know, how many of those.
 
Laura Hulleman  22:38
Yeah. know, the thing is, there's, it's usually just too many questions. First of all, like, you have to clear your schedule, and make yourself a cup of coffee and sit down for your, you know, 100 questions, because they put in a lot of redundancies, because the way they ask the questions isn't dialed in enough to go this or this. And the other thing that they do is they, a lot of the assessments out there tend to put you on a gradient scale, right, somewhat, or, you know, very much. That triggers a thing in our brain that triggers our brain function of comparing. Now, all of a sudden, I'm answering all these questions in this fear based flopsweat? I don't know, maybe little Oh, I'm comparing myself to others. What's the right answer here? There, it is a real challenge. And because of that, you tend to not get accurate data. I had taken the Myers Briggs questionnaire, um, I had probably taken it five different times, had come up with two different results. Never saw the value of Myers Briggs, I kind of hated it. And that was way back when the endo type thing first started. I was a disc gal. And the other researcher was a Myers Briggs person. And I was like, no, no, no, that that stinks. I hate that one. And she's like, No, it's best. And I was like, 30, whatever questions boring. And she's like, No, no, no, we can get you there and much fewer questions because she had worked in how to dial in some of those questions. Well, with her questions, I finally was typed, right. I had never been typed correctly, because of how they would ask the introvert extrovert question. Their introvert extrovert question was always kind of like if you're at a party. Are you out on the dance floor or you sitting having a quiet conversation in the corner? Well, girl I love dance. In I am on the dance floor. What it didn't ask me was after that party's over how many days of alone time does it take before you want to see another person again? Right? What's What's your recovery time after that? And I had always been typed extrovert instead of introvert. Because the questions just aren't dialed in. Right? That's, that's the other place that we really have to watch what assessments that we are giving people. Because great you took it, but wasn't even accurate.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:32
Right, well, and I am a horrible dancer. So I am, I am an extrovert, through and through, if you're at a networking event, I will be all over that place. But at a dance party, I am probably not going to be on the dance floor.
 
Laura Hulleman  25:49
Right, it's just not dialed in enough. It's not dialed in. When we ask a similar, we're not actually testing for introvert extrovert. We are one of the questions inside our quiz. And I'm not going to get exactly the nuance, right. But what we ask people is, are you more dominant? And can be submissive when you need to be? Or are you more submissive, go with the flow, whatever, and can become dominant when you need to be right. That's that extrovert introvert thing? Yeah. I prefer to take charge. I can I can sit back and chill, or I prefer somebody else to make the decisions. But if nobody's going to make a decision, we're not going to say her all day. Yeah, I'll step up. And so asking that question, just slightly different, to be able to get at the information we're actually trying to ask, or we're actually trying to get out because even these days, introvert and extrovert, right? It's it's the new hot trend to be ambivert. an ambivert, which means like both, I'm both Well, we are all both. Nobody wants to go live in a cave.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:02
Wait, is that an option? Oh, I know, there's new words for everything. Every once in a while somebody will say something to me. And I'm like, am I the only one in the room that doesn't know what that means? That everybody will look at me and go, No, I just I don't want to sound like an idiot. I don't know what that means either. And I'm like, okay, so this is one of those new words that came up. That was created just recently, and I'm like, Okay, I'm showing my age here. Mm hmm. Yeah, I am. 100%. extrovert have been from the time that I was a kid. And you're right. If you asked me, Are you, you know, dominant and submissive, when you need to be absolute. That would that's 100%. Me. I will volunteer, I will stand up and take charge. When I but if I need to be submissive, if I need to be quiet. I need absolutely I follow I mean, that's another thing about you know, following the room. But if you simply just ask me, Are you dominant? Or are you submissive? I'd be like, Well, yeah, I mean, I'm dominant. But, you know, there's some times that I'm submissive. Right? I mean, when you when you ask it that black and white, you're kind of like, huh, yeah, huh. I guess I fall in the middle. I mean,
 
Laura Hulleman  28:15
Yeah. And and, you know, there's, there's some people who take our quiz who don't like that, they only get like, one shot at a question kind of thing. You know, like, Are you this? Or are you this, but when they, so it's only five questions takes less than five minutes, and they get to the end, and they see a preview of their results. Does this sound like you? If it doesn't sound like you? There was probably one of those questions that you struggled with one of those questions that it was like, I could maybe go either way. Go back, answer that question differently this time. And then they'll get the the other result. And they're like, oh, yeah, that was it. That was me. And, and that still takes less time than the 30 to 100 questions of every other quiz out there. You know, and so yeah, so there are some people who, who kind of pride themselves on wanting to be both, but we have and we can be we can be both in any of the questions that I ask. Dominant submissive, are you more worrying about people's feelings or more worrying about what's right? Interesting. I get that we, we all do both, right. But it's kind of like, each of us has a dominant leg that we use to climb the stairs. We don't we don't even recognize it. But there's one foot that we always step first with when it's time to climb stairs, right? Which foot is it for you hear people's feelings first? Ooh, how are they gonna react to this? Or I gotta say this because it's right. Oh, I should probably figure out people's feelings to you know kind of thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:59
For me, I know immediately what I would answer to, to the question, I mean, immediate. I gotta take the quiz. I gotta take this. Yay. Good job. So, yeah, I'm going to, I think what you offered, you offered that to me, didn't you do
 
Laura Hulleman  30:15
It right now at the quiz at this point, and it won't stay this way forever. But at this point, the phrase, or the phrase, the quiz is available on our website at no cost. So if you go to endo type.com, and you take the quiz, you'll be able to in less than five minutes, see your results. And unstart understanding a little bit more about yourself. And people are always very surprised, because because we're only asking those five questions, and then they're like, how do you know these things about me? Because because they're the pattern that make up who you are. Right?
 
Leighann Lovely  30:55
Creepy? No
 
Laura Hulleman  30:58
Yeah, exactly.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:59
So um, here's the next question that you now you recently released a book, you put out a book, my walk my way, I'd love to hear you tell me a little bit about this?
 
Laura Hulleman  31:10
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so my friend and I, it actually started we were having we were both kind of in for different reasons, but having a bad day. And, and we were talking about this project that she was involved in, that was kind of like this theme of it was like, walk a mile in my shoes. And I was like, God, I hate that. I was like, I know people say it, because they want to they what they're trying to say is, let's be more empathetic, and think about other people. But what it actually is, is more like, I'm so different than, like walk a mile in my shoes, it creates comparison, it creates this disconnect from people. I was like, and I don't want to read stories like that. I want to read a story. Like, I walked in my own dang shoes. Here's my story. Here's how I did it my own way. And. And I was like, huh, I would really like to read a book like that. Like, maybe we should write a book like that. What could that look like? And so we brought together 11 women authors, in they weren't authors prior to some of them had written prior to this. But a lot of them were just amazing. Women with this very powerful story to tell about that time in their life, when they decided that outside of comparison, and and how is everybody else doing it outside of the experts? How are they is everybody telling me I should do this. They decided to do their life their own way. And so inside of that book, we have some business stories, we have some stories of people who have decided to do business on their own terms, and create, you know, a completely different experience for themselves. We have stories of people leaving domestic violence, we have stories of people parenting, or taking care of their aging parents, leaving generational trauma and generational body shaming. And saying, You know what, this stops here, I'm not going to pass this on to my kids. They're really brilliant stories. And out of those 11 authors, we have 10 Different endo types. Oh, wow. So as part of the book, you can take the quiz, right? You can read the book, because it is beautiful, inspiring, powerful stories. You can take the quiz, and then go Who do I think most like here? Let me go read her story. Oh, yeah, I relate to this, maybe a little bit too much. And, and to be able to see that or get together as a book club, we've created a book club guide, have your friends be able to take the quiz to and go, Oh, you're like that one. Okay, I see you. And so it was this really neat opportunity for people to you know, however, they approach the book, either as an inspiring story as something where they're trying to learn more about themselves or trying to learn more about the people in their lives through this book.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:21
That's awesome. And it's so interesting that I did not know I don't think that I realized that it was all of them had the different endo endo type formulas that that is that's crazy. Cool. I, I have the book. In fact, I actually had it sitting right next to me. I've opened it and started reading it a couple of times. And I'll tell you, you know with four year old it's difficult to assignment. But it's yeah, I'm I'm so excited to read it. And I yeah, I'm so excited to read it. It's just it's amazing that you put that out Yeah, amazing that you got that, in put this together, I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to actually having five minutes to myself where I can sit down and dive in.
 
Laura Hulleman  35:08
And if you're more of an, if you're more of an audio content kind of gal, we actually have the my walk my way podcast where I'm interviewing each of those authors and talking about their endo types. In the book, we don't really teach endo type in this book. On the podcast, we're getting a lot more into the nitty gritty of their endo types. And I'm actually working on a project right now, with the book, I'm gathering up awesome. Leaders, you know, both of different genders of different races, different walks of life, to be able to create a book where we teach endo type through stories, right? That's kind of like, this is why I am the way I am kind of thing.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:01
Well, and it's yeah, it's I love to hear, you know, women, men's inspiring stories of how they overcame something, obviously, with my background of having by, you know, bipolar disorder, having a mother who, you know, also struggled, you know, for, well, her whole life with it. And, and obviously, my my mom, and I have very, very different personality types. I am definitely, very much my dad, businessman, you know, a type personality, my mom, very much not, I would not even begin to know what her personality type is, but very much more of a very much more of quiet and not very, she would be much more on the submissive side. I think I think years ago, I was I was offered the opportunity to have my whole family do the DISC assessment, which was interesting. And and yeah, I don't anyways, I'm on a tangent. But yeah, I know, I love inspiring stories of how people have overcome, whether that be personal or business or so yeah, no, that this is great. This is awesome. So
 
Laura Hulleman  37:14
Thank you. Yeah, it was a fun project.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:16
Yeah. Did you talk about the possibility of doing something like this? Like another book? Yeah, maybe? Yeah,
 
Laura Hulleman  37:24
That's fine. Yep, that's the plan is, is the next, the next book will answer more of the question of like, here's why I'm like that, that that's the, you know, where this one was, like, here's that moment when I decided kind of story, right? This is more looking at people's life story and going, this is why I'm like this. And then they're going to tell their life stories. And we're going to nurture out the endo type elements so that I can teach the endo type through their story. And go, do you see how, you know, do you see how, you know, we'll use my dad as an example. Do you see how Andy, because he craved worth so much, was willing to jump to that next job here, and the next one, and the next one after that, because of his innate craving to be valued. And so taking the experiences, and then showing it right, it's kind of like, I'll pre highlight the book for you. So that you can see where all those juicy bits are. And the plan is with this next book, that we will actually be creating some training programs, with the use of this book in different areas. So for coaching, for HR for, you know, other things, we can take one book, and then create different courses around that book.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:52
Awesome. Awesome.
 
Laura Hulleman  38:53
Yeah,
 
Leighann Lovely  38:54
So um, we are coming to time, but I have the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why?
 
Laura Hulleman  39:11
Probably the bigger one would be so one of my innate cravings, right? On my endo type formula is a craving for significance. And it's the one that comes up over and over and over. It's, you know, how we keep saying like, we're trying to learn the same lessons over and over. Yeah, that's me and significant. And, and so I have this big tool. I had this endo type formula about two years ago. And it had started working with a coach I'd worked with in the past. She wasn't really a business coach, but I got the sense that she was able to help me do the thing that I needed, which was a little bit of business coaching. And she agreed, we sat down, we tried to figure some stuff out. She's like, What do you want? And I was like, okay, Here's what I want for this company did edited it editor. She's like, that's very interesting. That is not actually what I asked, What do you want? Oh, dang it. This is what I did in my last business is that I put everybody else and the business first and kept forgetting what I wanted, kept forgetting my role, my importance, my significance. Having that on my radar now allows me to make such different choices like bringing on a project manager or going, that's intro, you know, cuz everybody has an idea of what this intertype formula should do. That's interesting. That's not actually my job, because I know that it wouldn't bring me peace and joy and and it wouldn't put me in the position that I need to be in. So I think that having that conversation two years ago, and then continuing, we did probably, I think it was a six month coaching program. And that was just an and she's still somebody that I see very regularly, so she can keep going. And excuse me, and do you think that's a significant thing again? Yep. Okay, yep, there it is. All right. Back to the drawing board, let me make a different choice. But having that so clearly on my radar now, has just allowed my business to just really go crazy in the last two years of opening up and, and expanding in, in an organic way, right in in a way that I'm not stressing myself out, because I continue to remember that I'm significant. And that going out and fishing in the summertime is high on my list of things to do.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:52
That, wow, that we as individuals don't realize sometimes that we are our own worst enemies. And, and I say that, you know, for all people out there who are interested in running their own business or doing their own thing, because we so we, our default setting is to say, well, I can't do it, because XYZ or but having a true understanding of your own self and what that that thing is your your for you it's the significance, had no true understanding of what power that would hold.
 
Laura Hulleman  42:37
Right? Because see, all my my business mistakes that I made in the past where I said, I was overworking and putting myself last and doing for my family and doing because that whole time I was trying to earn or prove my significance, right? Because if I do more for them, and I work my tail off, and I come home and be the good mom, like, Look, Mom, I'm important. Now look, Mom, I guess I am significant. The whole time, what I write my internals were trying to guide me to is you need to make the decision, knowing your significant, right, not trying to earn it anymore.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:18
And it's in it's just for me, it just recently came clear what my you know, the imposter syndrome, you know, is such a real thing. And it didn't really dawn on me until I was actually at a at a summit the young guns Summit, not just the resource. Sure, but the the one before that. And they were talking about it and it hit me like a ton of bricks and I went holy crap. Like I really have issues with that. Yeah, like me for me.
 
Laura Hulleman  43:47
Yep. Right, where, right? There is one part of us that predicts our imposter syndrome. And for me, that's where significance connects. For somebody else. It's going to be work where belonging or whatever, there is a way to predict exactly what your imposter syndrome sounds like, we're going to do a whole event on it in October, but planning a whole event on it.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:11
It's, and right if you can identify exactly where that comes from. And I have an idea. I mean, I really do. It's, you know, I have a four year old and I feel guilty when I'm at work. I feel guilty when I'm with her. You know, I feel guilty when I have to go to a networking meeting, I feel you know, I go there and I want to have fun and enjoy myself but I feel guilty that I'm not at home with her and but if I'm not working I feel right. Right. Where does it where does it end? There's you know, you you have to you and I know that there are people listening who go yep, I do the exact same thing all the time. And it's the mindset this the switch that you have to figure out how do I turn it off? Because I know that I'm great at my job. I know that I'm a good mom. How do I how do I stop the default setting from going back to, you know, you're not spending enough time with your daughter, you're not spending enough time at work you're not doing? How do you how do you stop that default setting? And just, yeah, right,
 
Laura Hulleman  45:17
What once we understand what the craving is that we have, and we can name that, so for me, I named it, I understand it, its significance right now and understand what that inner guidance is trying to propel you towards, it gets a whole lot easier. So take the quiz, we'll reconnect. And I'll be like, Okay, you're gonna, this is my name, you're gonna fix this brand name. And this is what you want. And at least then you'll have it on your radar, right? Sure.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:47
Perfect. Hey, I just accomplished one of my goals is to fix my impact. No. Okay. So this has been such an awesome conversation with you today. It truly has you. I mean, this is you just your one, the endo type formula is as awesome. I'm excited to take that to the book. I mean, if you want to check it out, here's where you're going to take the reins, Laura, how can somebody get in contact with you? How can somebody find your book, all of that?
 
Laura Hulleman  46:19
Sure. So if they're trying to find the book, you can buy it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble at your local bookstores. But if you want to just easy to remember, right, my walk my way.com. From there, you can buy the book you can download, get free guides, can download book club information, you can see our authors get on our podcast, all those things. If you're looking to end, you can take the quiz there too. If you're looking more to just access the quiz, endo type.com. And you can find me on most social media platforms. So if you just want to connect with the Endotype on Instagram or Facebook, LinkedIn, we're on all those platforms.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:04
Excellent. Again, Laura, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's been an awesome conversation.
 
Laura Hulleman  47:11
Thank you for having me here. I appreciate it.
 
Leighann Lovely  47:13
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/laura-hulleman-8455bb61
Website - endotype.com
Email - imfitlaura@gmail.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Episode 16 - Jonathan Heider - Motivational Speaker

This guest is one with drive, intelligence, and amazing accomplishments. He is also so much fun to talk with and has taught me a lot about myself in a very short time. I hope you tune in and enjoy the conversation as much as I did. 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:04
Today I have the honor and privilege of speaking with Jonathan Heider, he is a professional motivational speaker, and inclusion workshop leader with Split Star Productions. With a lifetime of experience as a congenital quad amputee, seasoned paralympic swimmer. And accessibility designer Jonathan brings a worldly perspective unmatched, fueled by his desire to trailblaze for future generations and those whose voices aren't heard, he has set out to be the change, Jonathan thrives to find unique and out of the box solutions to overcome any form of obstacle that stands in his way. Alongside his mission statement of using what you've got, and components of you, Jonathan's unique outlook and determination serves as a model, we are more than any one of our characteristics. And like I said, I have the honor and privilege of talking with him today. Not only have I had the opportunity to speak with him prior to this conversation today. But I've I've had the opportunity to learn from him. And I'm excited to get this conversation started. Jonathan, I am so excited to have you here today. I mean, you and I have had the opportunity to talk you know, prior to this, and I just I think that you have an amazing background, some just amazing life experience. So thank you for taking the time to come on and talk with me today.
 
Jonathan Heider  02:39
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I love your background as well and what you're doing to help humanize HR and bring people closer together. That's fantastic.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:48
Well, thank you. So I'm, excited to hear a little bit more about your story, you know, especially as a professional athletes, architect, and then to motivational speaker and everything in between. So why don't we start? Well start wherever you want with all of that.
 
Jonathan Heider  03:09
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I guess I am kind of a jack of all trades. I've been chopping around a little bit. So my story is I was actually born in Croatia in the city of Split. I was born a quad amputee so all four limbs were shorter due to birth. No one knows exactly why. And so I was given up at birth, and at 16 months old, I was adopted by a family out of Green Bay, Wisconsin and came to the United States. Growing up I was super high energy kid like super ADHD bouncing off the walls quite literally. And jumping off of furniture, you know, you name it. And so needing an outlet. I got involved into sports. That was a big thing, especially in our household in general. As a family, my older siblings all played sports, and so did my parents. So it just kind of came natural. So I did everything. I was involved in wheelchair basketball, wheelchair rugby, wheelchair tennis, sitting volleyball, sled hockey, as well as swimming and swimming was the one that really stuck with me. And so that one is the one that you know, through my childhood took me not only to the national stage, but international stage as well as paralympic swimmer and so had the opportunity to live in train at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center in Colorado Springs Colorado for a few years. And then kind of went from there with my career and that's what launched the public speaking and then, following my life as a paralympic swimmer. I got into college and got into public speaking even more with an agency eventually went independent launching my own business and worked as in architecture for about three and a half years. So a little bit of everything along the way.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:44
Yeah, so you and when we spoke, you know, prior to this you left home to to actually train at a pretty young age. Tell me a little bit about the that.
 
Jonathan Heider  05:01
So yeah, since my kind of career in the Paralympic swimming world was very, I started off, you know, going to national competitions when I was 11 years old. And so it was something that took off rather quickly for me. And eventually, I had applied, or I had talked to initially the coach at the Olympic and Paralympic training center for the Paralympic swim team, by the name of Jimmy flowers. And he had met me at a competition in Texas and said, hey, you know, I see your potential, I absolutely love what you do, I want to coach you. And I said, Awesome. And so it was early in 2008, that I had initially applied for the position of a resident athlete at the training center, didn't get in that time. And then I tried again, for January of 2010. Didn't get accepted that time either. And then it was finally in September of 2010, is when I got accepted. And so at that point, you know, I was only, you know, 17 years old, or 16 years old at the time when I got accepted. And then going into age 17, when I got there. And so I was very young. I mean, my career was very early in my life. And so, I always had supportive parents, I mean, they have always supported all of us kids and our different adventures through whether we were sports, or whether we were theater, we all kind of had our own little avenues. And so my parents were super supportive, and loved, you know, they were all about, you know, staying active, that was the biggest thing that they always pushed growing up, was we want healthy, active kids, and we want them to be able to really do that. And they saw my success. And they saw my potential through being a paralympic swimmer that helped me grow as a person in so many ways, including, you know, understanding kind of mental discipline, mental health, physical health, and so many other aspects. And so, in a way, it was almost like a no brainer for them that they saw what I could do. And so at 16 years old, they agreed to let me go to the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center. And so, you know, there's a lot of precautions that went to place knowing that I was going to finish high school online through virtual Wisconsin education program, even though I was out in Colorado, making sure that there were certain people, not only the coaching staff, but other people kind of, I honestly, you know, kind of as a parental figure while I was out there, and so laid that groundwork first. And then once everything was kind of laid out, then it was kind of like, Yes, this is really the right thing for me to do, and that they felt comfortable having me do this. And so it was a huge, very quickly had to grow up, you know, it was, you know, how many people are set, you know, at 16 years old, are set are told, Hey, you have a swim competition up in Toronto, December 6, through December 12, you need to be there on the sex and you back in Colorado Springs, by the 12. You know, I was 16 years old, I had to figure out budgets, I had to figure out flights, I had to figure out, you know, transportation to and from the venues and all of that, you know, and that's something that like, I expect a 16 year old to know budgeting and how to handle flights and all of that. And so, and then also maturity of you know, being on the team USA, you had to represent yourself in a certain way, you couldn't be childish, you had to be respectful. And so it was a huge Grossberg in a very, very short time, and to kind of becoming this very professional adult at 16 years old.
 
Leighann Lovely  08:27
And having parents who, you know, saw that not only this was something that you clearly wanted, it sounds like it was a very uplifting for your, for your mental health for your it mean, it sounds like it was just and as a parent, it would be very difficult for me to say, Sure, honey, go across the, you know, halfway across the country and be that far away from me and study and I mean, grow up without me in your life, that would be very difficult. But the fact that they were willing to one put that trust in you to support you in the way that they did for you to have that growth and to be able to experience something that very, very, I mean, an extremely small percentage of people have the ability to do and, and again, you are also able to experience life with other individuals who I'm sure we're experiencing life a little bit differently as well being a quadriplegic or having other what, what would be the proper word for that?
 
Jonathan Heider  09:45
Well, you know, similar disabilities, I think, you know, our swim came out at the Olympic and Paralympic training center where I was not the only one who was underage. There were two other athletes who were underage who also went out there. And so there's that Team of the swim team itself was there about? Well, there's a team of 12. And so it was six boys, six girls. And so it was a good team. But it was Yeah, being able to be amongst peers, very driven very hard working disabled athletes who, you know, took it upon themselves to be the best that they could be and see that their potential and really said everything else in their life aside to live this life to really become this true world class athlete, and so very inspired by everybody that I was living and trained with. Because they also, like you had just mentioned, had come from that similar background of self determination and openness and been brought up, you know, you were talking a lot about my parents. You know, they also had parents that said, you know, dream big, and chase those dreams, one of the athletes who's over the age of 18, at the time, but one of the most incredible Paralympic swimmers of all times Jessica law, she went to her first Paralympic Games at age 11. And so for her to be able to tackle the world the way she did, and to have her, you know, she was my inspiration in the way that, you know, her parents allowed, she was also adopted at a very young age, and her parents, you know, gave her that foundation that she could trace her dream at such a young age and be successful. And so not only did I look up to her, but I got to train in the pool with her and be part of that community, because she opened the doors, so that I could do it at 16. Myself,
 
Leighann Lovely  11:30
right. And to be so young and representing your country representing I mean, to be amongst the best in the world. I mean, that's just, it's an amazing, it had to have been an amazing experience and the pride that you must have felt that you still that you still feel, from being able to do that. I mean, anybody who's able to do that, must feel is I can't even I can't even begin to understand. I mean, I get excited when I win. You know, a board game. I can't imagine. I won.
 
Jonathan Heider  12:15
I do, too. I'm not gonna lie, I'm right there with you. I wouldn't Candyland, I celebrate just as hard I get it, I get it.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:23
I am a wildly competitive person. But, you know, I can't I can't begin to, you know, compare that to, to the, one of the best in the world. And that's, that's, you know, we all watch. And we go how, how are these? How are these individuals able to do the things that they do? And and you're right, it discipline, determination, you know, following your dream and having the parents having the, the coaches be the ones who are saying, Yep, you can absolutely do this. So, absolutely. This brings me to what you decided to retire from swimming at 19. So, tell me about that.
 
Jonathan Heider  13:05
I think it was one of those things. So I started off very young. And so and it was kind of my entire life through especially through middle school into high school that it was, it was to have a swim practices. It was before school, after school, and then spending the weekends at competitions. And it was, that was my childhood, in a way like I had friends. But my my life was like priority number one is swim. And then if there's time after that, I could be with my friends. And so it kind of became very, I almost burnt out in that sense, because I never had like, a whole lot of like, just fun social interaction, like going to parties going to hang out with people because it was always like, Swimming was number one. And so at that point, after just missing the team for the 2012 games, became the point where it's like, alright, let's, you know, take a timeout, let's take time to understand like, what what do I need to do and like, I have the opportunity to continue, but at that point, I'm like, you know, I would like to step back for a little bit kind of go into a semi retirement and start college because I think now I want to like I want to be a college student. You know, I want to do the college thing and I want to do what other people are doing my age and hearing about, you know, friends go into college and having parties and going and hanging out being successful students like I wanted that same life. And so to kind of step back from that Paralympic world and just kind of become your average, you know, student in college was something that I then set my goals for.
 
Leighann Lovely  14:39
So not only were you are you gifted with athletic ability, you then went and didn't choose to just get a, oh get my bachelor's degree and you know, business you went and got your degree in architectural.
 
Jonathan Heider  14:57
Yeah, that I agree. No. And that's and that's in and of itself is an entirely different world. And so like, it is an insanely different program than any other program in college. You know, most people, you know, when you're in college, you take a bunch of, you know, exams and tests and write a lot of papers. In architecture college, it is you are creating projects, it is to three projects per class per semester, in which, you know, like, I remember, like, it's a lot of money to like, I remember my final model for my senior year, when I got all the receipts together, it costed me about $2,200 To make the whole entire project. And so you know, so it's like, yeah, I don't have to study for a test, but like, you know, pay for $100 textbook or pay for a $2,200 model, you know, and so it was late nights, very late nights and early mornings, putting together laser cut models and documents and drawings for every single project. And so it was, it was definitely a unique program. It definitely, you know, and unique situation, I remember when I started college in the architecture program, they accepted 400 people into the program. And when I graduated in, in my senior year, we had a graduating class of 87. And so it's, I would say, not for the faint of heart. But you know, I, there was a lot of a lot of dropouts. And a lot of you know, I so many times and you felt for them the heartbreak that they went through, you know, especially, there were times where I've seen people put together models that were, you know, four or $500, and then accidentally fall off the edge of their table, and completely go into just like a just a pile of pieces everywhere. And just like the heartache of the breakdown and the emotions of like, why am I even still here, admittedly, there was a time where I broke one of my models. Luckily, it wasn't like a full on shatter across the floor. But it is it is definitely not for the faint of heart. And I think going through my life as the Paralympic swimmer and challenging those obstacles head on. And it has prepared me to be able to be successful in the architecture program, I was the only person with a physical disability going through this program. And so to be able to kind of trailblaze the path that way and show like, hey, you know, I can do this, too. It was an absolutely amazing and incredible opportunity to make it through the program. And so, fortunately, not only was I in that top 97 to graduate, but out of the 97, who graduated, there was only about 25 people who had job offers from architecture schools, or architecture firms in the Milwaukee area. And I was one of the 25, who had a job opportunity waiting upon graduation, that I had proven myself time and time again, that I was worth it. And so it's that taking that discipline and that challenge to show like, this is my value, and I can I can do it.
 
Leighann Lovely  18:04
That's amazing. Not only amazing, because you You graduated with your BS in architecture, a minor in minor in certification in real estate development. And, and you did that you you did that for a while. But why not stay in that in that fields.
 
Jonathan Heider  18:21
I think one of the things that I understood was my purpose in life. And so I've been reflecting upon that my whole entire life. And my whole life has been about trailblazing the path through other through advocacy, in accessibility in disabilities and several other components that help people have their voice heard. And so I still have a passion for architecture and design. And I still do a lot of design development things and help people out in that regard. But I needed to pick a different avenue to be successful with that. And so, you know, I want to continue to advocate for accessibility and make facilities and spaces within our world more readily available and open for people of different backgrounds and create a more inclusive environment but working within the architecture firms not exactly the location that I truly believe I belong to follow my purpose.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:17
Wow! Did you just read that could not be better stated. I mean, and there are so many people who I mean you you clearly you clearly wowed a company with your abilities. You're obviously there they were probably looking at your academic, what would it be academic accolades and accomplished yes, there we go academic accolades and accomplishments they offered you you know, the position and often you know, individuals, especially younger individuals will find themselves at an impasse and go, you know, I It's not that I don't like what I'm doing, but they have that either the angel or the devil on their shoulder. Saying one thing or another, you clearly had something on your shoulder saying, Hey, this is not, you're great at it, this is not the path for you. And I talked to a lot of individuals who decide to go another path for one reason or another, which is why I asked you to come on, and talk with me today. Because you and I are very much like minded in that it took me years to figure out that I could do something with my story, I could offer more with, with what I have lived through, you are still at such a young age where you have so much more to offer the world, which is what brings you to where you are today. And being able to be a keynote speaker, or teach other people so much more. And I would really love to hear about what drives you and how you how you do that for others, because your story is really one of inspiration. And and I don't want to downplay that, I often get the oh, this is you know, LeighAnn lovely, and she has bipolar and and that drives me crazy, because I am not that I am absolutely a million different things. And I want to be recognized as LeighAnn lovely. And she is XYZ and ABC and all of the other things. And and you and I had kind of talked about this a little bit in our pre conversation that, you know, you don't want to be recognized for just one thing. You you have, I mean a million things in your tool belt that you can offer. But have you come up against that?
 
Jonathan Heider  21:48
So absolutely. And so you, you touched on a lot of big things. And so one of my biggest things through my life, and through my business and why I started my business and why I continue to lead and my purpose is understanding the components of you, you talked about with you with you know, this is LeighAnn lovely with bipolar, you're so much more than that. And same with my disability. And you know, my disability is very obvious, if you see me, you see my limbs are missing. It's one of those things that's very obvious, like, oh, that's Jonathan, he's a quad amputee. But like there's so much more to a person. And so understanding the components that make up this person is truly what makes a person unique and humanizes them in that sense and understanding like there are so many layers and so many levels to understanding this person. And so one of the biggest things that I speak about is I take these components of you and I like to think of them as spices and a spice rack. And that who you are is this big pot of chili. And everything that makes up who you are is one of the spices on the stool, you know, spice rack, and so, you know, grab the spice that's, you know, my disability, put that in there, grab the spice, that's apparently silver and put that in there, grab the spice, you know about being an architectural designer. And so all of these different spices come together. And that makes up who you are. And so you're more than just that one spice. And so I think I definitely had dealt with that, especially having a disability that is so obvious that people saw that first and wondered like, how are we going to overcome this and so always trying to play one step forward. And so when I talked about the architecture firm that had an offer for me before graduating college, I'd actually gone and done an externship with them during my college years, and prove to them be one step ahead of the game, I did a couple externships. But this one in particular, was the one that hired me, but during this extra, all of these externships it was proving that like, hey, I can do this just fine. You know, this is all electronic. This is all done on the computer. Let me let me show you, I can get these drawings done just as easily, if not more efficiently than the next person. And so it's it's that always having to prove myself, but taking that one step ahead of them to say, Hey, let me show you. Like don't, you know, don't don't hold me back. You know, I'll be respectful of you and your boundaries. But like, just give me that chance. Let me let me just prove to you real quick that I can do this. And so that's definitely been something that I've had to overcome is with having such a obvious disability, that people you know, first question and then, you know, seeing that I take the reins, they sit back and watch for a second. They're like, Oh, okay, he's got this. And so understanding those components that make up who you are, and respecting, you know, all of these incredible things that make up a person and it not, like I said, humanizes them as you like to say, with your podcast here. And so it's important to understand, you know, I'm more than just my disability. I'm more than just an architectural designer. I'm more than just a keynote speaker. I'm more than just a workshop facilitator. I'm more than just, you know, a Croatian born American. There's so many different components that make up who I am. And I think humanizing that and respecting What's all on my spice rack, and what's all in this pot of chili is what makes I think all of us great. And once people start to understand and see these different components that are on the spice rack, it helps them, then have that humanized connection to the person and see, okay, you know, you may, you know, you may have a disability or something else or you know, you may have, you know, be bipolar, but like, let's, let's get to know the person first and understand this person on a human level, and see that they're pretty amazing, and they're pretty spectacular person to get to know.
 
Leighann Lovely  25:35
And it's, so awesome that you that you say that and and I love the analogy of you know, a pot of chili because so often we do as humans, we take, we take a glance at somebody and automatically make an assumption, very quickly, we make an assumption, whether it be because of the way they look, whether it be because of, you know, simply the the first interaction that we have with somebody, we quickly as humans have made assumptions. And that's something that we have to get away from doing, we have to be able to open our hearts and minds to a wide variety of different things. And I think that people are starting to understand that more and more as time has gone on, especially over the last, you know, two years have you know, we've all experienced this a lot more. I think that we've all opened up our minds a lot more, there has been so many different things that even myself that I have had to check my own brain and go wait a second, I'm making an assumption of somebody, and I've never even had a conversation with them. It's as simple as me assuming that I should go and open a door for somebody, because I think that they need help. Now. It's not me trying to be you. No, no, let me let me preface this by saying, you know, I'm not trying to be rude. But you know, you you see somebody and you go, Oh, well, they can open their own door. But that may be an insult to some people have no, I can do it myself. No, I'm not saying you know, don't open a door for an old lady if you know, but you know what I think?
 
Jonathan Heider  27:18
Yeah, I think with that statement, I think part of it is just also being respect, respectful of people, you know, in society, you know, opening a door for somebody has always been a sign of generosity and respect. And so that is one of the things that I've learned over my life is like, not to be openly offended by somebody doing something in such a kind gesture, because they're trying their best to accommodate you, and be respectful of you. And that's something that I always take in mind. And so, but although like I can perfectly open a door for myself, if someone goes ahead and does it, I'm not going to like chop their head off for doing so because I see the kind gesture, I see the kindness, and I see the respect and the generosity that they are offering. And I know that it's coming from a place of love and respect, and not as a place of, well, you can't do this, you know, there are certain situations where, you know, sometimes it is offensive, there are times when like, in my when I used to have a manual wheelchair, I have a power chair now, but when I've manual wheelchair and I pushed myself across the street, I did have handles on the back of the chair. And every now and then there would be somebody who like cuz I'm like crossing the street, somebody would just grab the handles and like start pushing me and it frightened me. I mean, like, you're basically I'm gonna say in control some somebody else is controlling you. And so in situations like that, you know, having a very kind respectful, like, Hey, I've got this, you know, that's a little disrespectful. It's like pretty much picking somebody up and carrying them across the street when they didn't ask to be it's like, give them a sense, but, you know, it's it's having that communication with them in a respectful manner to say, hey, you know, please respect my boundaries. I appreciate what you're trying to do. But that is overstepping. Thank you for your assistance, but this is something I'm able to do. And so having those open conversations is huge. Because it shows that like, again, humanization you want to have a human contact with that person to say, hey, you know, these are my limitations, and this is what I can and cannot do. And so I appreciate what your efforts are and your kindness, but this is something that I would feel more appropriate to handle myself. Right.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:29
I you know, I've never heard anybody describe it that way. Because I'm assuming the the person who did that was like, Oh, I'm gonna help this person. But yeah, you basically they're kidnapping you I mean, I guess I've never heard to do it would be equivalent to you know, I Oh, Hi, Emily. And I have bipolar disorder and somebody basically opening my mouth and shoving pills down and go here. Let me get you your medication. What?
 
Jonathan Heider  29:52
Exactly, exactly. Pretty much like okay, well, um, didn't ask for that. But thank you.
 
Leighann Lovely  29:59
You're right. I mean, and, and, and having those conversations and letting people know that, hey, and you had mentioned it, yes, your disability is something that people can see. Mine is is not my, you know, my disorder is something that people cannot see. But having raised conversations and making people realize that just because it's it's visible, doesn't mean that you have to assume that I'm not. And you clearly are very capable of taking care of yourself. A Paralympic athlete, you went to college, on your I mean, these are all things that are very huge indicators of somebody who is very much 100% self sufficient in multiple ways. And that is the thing that people need to start getting past is that, you know, if I'm, if I am a blind individual, and I have been say, since I was born, you would have to make the assumption that I am 100% capable of living alone in my own home, but don't come into my home and move my couches around.
 
Jonathan Heider  31:07
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's funny, you say that, and I think one of the questions I get all the time with people is like, wow, how do you how do you manage to get around? How do you manage to do this? And so, as somebody who was born with my situation, it's like, well, this is all I've ever known, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, if I was born, you know, with four arms instead of two arms, you know, when I turned to you, and I said, Wow, Leanne, how do you function in life with only two arms like, that must be hard, that must be extremely difficult to live a life with? And you're like, Well, I'm I was, this is the way I know, like, I was only born with two arms. And so I kind of look at it in that same regard. And especially like you said, about the furniture situation. I mean, that's kind of my thing, too, is like, I am fully capable and independent in the house that I live in, because I have made it modified for myself, you know, so yeah, please, please don't like move my showerhead. Like is it's download so I can reach it. Um, you know, like, or the other day, or quite literally, like, one of the shirts I'm wearing now. I had housekeeping come and do my laundry, and she unbuttoned all my shirts and like, like, how much of a pain in the acid is for me to read, but my shirts, and it's just like, Please don't Don't buy my shirts, like, I'll just put them on like a, like a, like a T shirt. Like how it's like, just like, you know, like you said, you know, for wine person don't come in and move my couch. Like, just like, you understand, like, I'm self sufficient, because I have made things in such a way that work for me and to be able to, you know, get dressed and live, you know, take a shower in the way that I can, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  32:45
Right. You know, and that you mentioned budding your shirt. That's something that I never would have in a million years thought of. But again, yeah, you've modified and you this is something you've lived with your whole life, you've modified, these are the things that, you know, for me, I take 100% for granted for you. You same thing, somebody who was colorblind. I mean, don't go in their closet and move their clothes into different sections. I mean, because Exactly. I've talked to people who are colorblind, and they're like, oh, yeah, I have somebody line up, and then mark all of my clothes so that I know what color is. So I'm not walking into the house wearing, you know, purple and, and whatever color but if you move them around, yeah, I'm not gonna match. And it's like, oh, that that could be a funny joke to plan somebody who's colorblind. Well, not really funny. But, again, we we as humans modify our lives to fit the way that we live. Yes. It's just as simple as that, you know, and unless you're asking for help, and I say this, the same with advice, unless you're asking for help or advice. Don't be one of those people who go and just give it.
 
Jonathan Heider  34:02
Absolutely, I think, you know, unless it's one of those things that like unsolicited advice can be harmful. Especially even if it's someone close, you know that some people always have boundaries, even if it's, you know, a significant other and they give you unsolicited advice, you kind of want to, you know, throw them in the wall of it, but like, even people who are the most closest to you, you respect the boundaries, and you wait until they ask you like, hey, I need your help. You know, then at that point, you come to them with open arms and say, here's, here's how I can help. And so yeah, I think that's super important respecting those boundaries and the people that around you. Absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  34:42
I know that there's been multiple times that my husband wants to throw me across the room because he's like, I was just telling you, I didn't ask for advice. And I'm like, Oh, crap. Like, Yep, sorry, honey, and he's like, now I just don't even feel like wanting to talk about this. anymore. And I'm like, right?
 
Jonathan Heider  35:01
Well, that's exactly it. And that's a situation as you go into shutdown mode, when there's unsolicited advice is then it kind of creates that barrier and creates that strain on, you know what you are trying to accomplish. So it kind of, then you get in your head a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:17
Yeah, totally. So tell me a little bit more about your I mean, about split star. I mean, I'd love to hear about that.
 
Jonathan Heider  35:26
Yeah, so Split Stars, my own business that I opened up a couple of years ago, now, I left the agency when the pandemic first hit. And then that's when I decided to kind of go my own direction. And so I do keynote speaking, workshop facilitation. And then for larger business and medium to large businesses, nonprofits, as well as colleges and universities, I do open, open the opportunity for business coaching for them for not individuals, but for the businesses themselves. So my focus is a lot on diversity inclusion, I talked a lot about earlier about the components of view. And that is a big part that I talked about, and understanding what advocacy is, and one of the biggest things for me was split star is advocacy starts with you, you cannot create cultural change, you cannot create opportunities for a more inclusive environment without advocating for yourself first, you know, you talk about a lot with, you know, your situations, and it's all about, you know, advocating for you first, and then putting that out into the world, as opposed to looking externally towards trying to adapt the world before you you know, we were just talking about, you know, within the how own household, that's a perfect example there about how I showerhead at a certain height, I have my shirts all buttoned already, you know, advocating for yourself and making the world work for you, as opposed to forcing the world to change, you have to adapt to the world around you through using what you have available. And so that is the biggest thing that I speak about, and how you can take the components that who of who you are, and utilizing what you've got in your own pot of chili, and what's on your spice rack to make the best of your situation. And so I do that through the keynote speaking, the workshop facilitation and the business consulting.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:07
That's amazing. Got everything that you said, I want to I want to sign up, I want to see you speak. I mean, it just it's it's everything that I and we talked about, you know, being very much like minded. And it's just it's awesome. That's great.
 
Jonathan Heider  37:25
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I love like I said, your, your approach to life. And you know, I think humanization is such a thing. When it comes to improving society and creating a cultural change that is, the more we humanize people and see them for all the components that make up who they are, I think we're able to relate to people more and have a better understanding and respect people on a higher level, because we can see where they're coming from.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:50
Yes. And the more that businesses start to understand that each employee that work at their organization, are individuals, the more that they will retain their employees and that they will Yeah, that that the culture shift will happen. And that employees will find that true happiness within organizations. It's just, you know, and I preached that constantly about, you know, you, if you want to retain you want a happy work environment, you have to stop treating them like the masses and start treating them as individual people. And it's not that difficult. It's just a simple, you know, recognition that they're appreciated for who they are, you know, not just what they do.
 
Jonathan Heider  38:41
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the individuality part of it. And I think we're in such a big age right now, where diversity is big thing. And diversity is important to, you know, to have a diverse background of people on staff, you know, whether you have, you know, somebody with a disability, someone who's, you know, black or Asian, or somebody who's you know, an older person, a younger person, you want to have that diversity, but it's also important to then take a moment and reflect on what's beyond just that person who might be disabled, and understanding what they also bring to the table. Besides, the fact that you can brag that you have a disabled person on staff is like, This person also has a lot of incredible skills, and, you know, creating like in the humanization, that individuality of the components that make up who they are.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:27
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting because I talk I spoke with and one of my episodes, his name is Le Rivera and Ruben Guyana, and I talked to them about a program called the way out, and they advocate for individuals who are previously incarcerated. And they work with companies on trying to help those companies hire in, you know, individuals who are really trying to get their life back on track, find opportunities, and that can key point that you just said is it's not about an individual or a company saying, Hey, we hire, you know, previously incarcerated individuals and just putting that tax credit on their, on their, their having that tax credit. It's about Yeah, truly, you know, wanting to help that individual and that individual truly wanting to change their life and then understanding that they are an individual and that they, you know, that they want to have a true career. Yeah, and that's that that should be this the standard, you know, the gold standard for every diverse individual that you hire, it shouldn't be about, Oh, yep, we are a diverse company, because we have, you know, all of these different backgrounds, it should, it should be about, hey, we, we have all these diverse individuals who can bring XYZ to the table, because they may see this different or they may bring this to the table. And I'm so tired of the companies or companies putting that stamp of approval, because, hey, we just hired this person with, you know, a disability or we, you know, have military. And we are going to, you know, showcase that we have a veteran on staff purely for the the PR move of that.
 
Jonathan Heider  41:18
Well, it's tokenizing is what you're doing, they truly what you're doing is tokenizing. And trying to remove the concept of tokenization is, I think key to move forward as a society.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:30
So this has been an awesome conversation, I can't believe that we are already coming to time. So I have one more question, which is the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why?
 
Jonathan Heider  41:52
Um, let's see. I mean, there have been so many pinpoints of career pivots in my life. Um, but I think one of the points I had mentioned, I think one of the biggest points right off the bat, you know, was back in 2008, when I met Jimmy flowers, and I just was just kind of this high energy kid that, you know, yes, I was involved in Paralympic swimming, but for him to say I see your potential, I see what you can do it introducing me to say, hey, I want you at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center, I think was one of the biggest, I think, is the biggest pivot points in my life, because that helped teach me discipline and respect. And helped me kind of shape my purpose into advocating and trailblazing, because since he believed in me, that I could be at the caliber to live amongst the great at the train Center helped me shape the future, that I knew that through being a successful athlete at the Paralympic Training Center, that I was then going to be able to be a successful architect, architectural designer and complete architecture college, that I could then open up my own business at the discipline that he taught me. And being at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center. I don't think any of us would have happened, if I didn't have a conversation with him back in 2008.
 
Leighann Lovely  43:15
That's awesome. People always come into our lives at the right time. Usually it is when we are, you know, much more seasoned in our career. But for you it was at a at a young impressionable age. And, you know, you really started your career path when you were a very young you know, kid. Yeah. And and that is is extremely unique. You know, you obviously, you grew up fast, but that it really paved the way for you to, you know, eventually have your own business and and that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, your story is definitely unique, and I love it.
 
Jonathan Heider  44:02
Well, I appreciate it, and so is yours. And so I admire, like I said, what you're doing to bring a new perspective into HR and to people to create this. Like I said, I knew outlet that they may not have looked before. I think that's absolutely phenomenal with what you do as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:22
Thank you. And if people are looking to reach out to you for you know, your workshop, you're mean to bring you in as a speaker. How would they go about doing that?
 
Jonathan Heider  44:34
Absolutely. So my website is split-star.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, as well as Instagram at split star. I also have my own LinkedIn pages Jonathan Heider, so you're more than welcome to find me any of those places. Again, the website is split-star.com.
 
Leighann Lovely  44:57
Awesome, Jonathan. Thank you. so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been an amazing conversation. Just like all the other cons are just like the other conversation that we had. So I really appreciate your time.
 
Jonathan Heider  45:10
Thank you as well.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:11
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day
E-mail - heider.d.jonathan@gmail.com
Website - https://www.split-star.com/ 
LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/jonathan-d-heider
Instagram - Split.Star 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 15 - Emotional Intelligence - Roger Wolkoff

Roger Wolkoff, an expert in Emotional Intelligence is a highly empathetic person and one that found his passion for coaching and public speaking in hopes to create work environments that people don't want to leave. 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:04
I am honored to introduce my guest today I have probably one of the most authentic conversations I had when I first met Roger. Let me introduce Roger Wolkoff. Roger is a motivational speaker who helps you create teams and companies people don't want to leave. You hire him for your for his expertise in emotional intelligence and appreciation. He doesn't give up on people he believes they will find a way to move forward and improve. How does he do this Rogers programs are high content and motivational in style and tone. He delivers stories, ideas and keys to unlock what's already inside you. Roger has over 20 years of expert interpersonal communication and team building experience. Audience raved about his two most popular keynotes how to thrive in times of uncertainty and create companies people don't want to leave. Roger's core messages center around trust, communication, and emotional intelligence. He helps leaders and high performing teams communicate with clarity, conviction and positive intent. He is an advocate of Clifton Strengths Finder, VIA Character Strengths and everything surrounding positivity. Roger lives in Madison, Wisconsin. He currently serves as president of the national speaker, Speaker Association Wisconsin Chapter. He loves to travel bike and read science fiction. He is a big fan of baseball, Pinball, and all things. Tesla. Welcome Roger. I'm so excited to have you here with me today.
 
Roger Wolkoff  02:45
Thanks for having me. I appreciate you inviting me on the podcast.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:48
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself in your backgrounds.
 
Roger Wolkoff  02:55
Oh, thanks for asking. You bet. Well, as I like to introduce myself, to others, I'm a recovering project manager kind of backed in Yeah, back into the career many, many years ago. And I've been out of it for about six years. So I'm originally from New York, and I've been in the Midwest and in Madison, Wisconsin now about 30 years. So spent a lot of time in corporate. And the one thing I learned is that human behavior basically fascinates me. And we're going to get into this in a little bit. But emotional intelligence fascinates me too. Because I believe that that's kind of at the root of how it speaks to how we understand and react and respond in relationships. So that's another piece. And lastly, I I'm a bit of a geek. I'm a bit of a geek at heart. Yeah. I love sci fi, particularly time travel or alternate history, parallel universe stuff. So I tend to binge watch a fair amount of Netflix stuff for Amazon stuff. And a big, big reader in that area. Yeah, and I think I might have put it on my bio. I'm a I'm a huge Tesla electric car fan. You did not know that about me. I don't own one yet. But I'm just fascinated with the technology and I'm gonna get me one of one of them someday.
 
Leighann Lovely  04:15
You know, it's it's so fun. I remember reading a story. Oh my god, it wasn't that long ago of a CEO that owned a company and during the pandemic I believe he stopped taking a salary or cut his salary like massive and didn't his employees end up buying him with with their extra a Tesla or something
 
Roger Wolkoff  04:41
I heard something like that. I didn't know if it was a you know, one of those urban legend things. I didn't research it, but I wouldn't be surprised. No,
 
Leighann Lovely  04:47
I actually I saw a picture of it. And yes, all the employees standing out in the parking lot. And he had like, dreamed of God. I wish I could. Now I have to go and research that because I'm I'm pretty Sure, that it that's what it was a he had dreamed of owning one one day and he had been like, saving to buy one. And yeah, he he stopped taking a salary drawing a salary so that he could keep his, his company open and all of the employees then pitched in, and eventually were able to, to buy him his dream car. That's, that's awesome. But it is awesome. Yeah, yeah, that, you know, there are amazing things happening these days with what one company owners, business owners, you know, people are doing for other people. It's just, it's so amazing. But another thing that you said that I just love your that you're kind of a geek, I, I think that we all are, in some way, a geek in our own way, and the things that we dig into, and I'm self proclaimed HR geek, human relations geek i i just love talking about relationships and how we can do better with so many different aspects and on the people front of things. And some people say, you know, Leanne, the things you talked about aren't necessarily HR. But if you think of the word it's it's human resource. It's a resource for humans. I think in a way, aren't we all kind of a resource for other humans?
 
Roger Wolkoff  06:22
We are in and I like your definition of it. And I'm sure you and I both run into people where that's not the case. Yeah. And so perhaps, I know, our paths intersected so that we can just help more people on our paths one person at a time.
 
Leighann Lovely  06:40
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. You know, I run into some amazing people all the time. That's, again, why I'm such a geek, I love to talk about this stuff. Now, you have an amazing background. But for the last nearly what, six years, you've been a professional, motivated, motivational speaker. Tell me, you know, how did you find your way down that path?
 
Roger Wolkoff  07:03
Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for saying that. How did I find my way down here? It's a great question. So one of the things I enjoyed about my job as project manager was, I it was my job to help remove barriers for people so that they could complete the tasks on the projects that and what I learned along the way, it was one of the best ways to do that. You know, we needed to build relationships and trust. That's how this work, right? So very early on in the project, I'd have maybe anywhere from, you know, five to 10 people and I took 15 minutes with each person. And we go on a little 15 minute 20 minute coffee walk. And I'd say honestly, I'd you know, if you and I were walking in, I'd say Leighann, tell me a story. And most of the time you look at me, like I'd lost my mind. And I said, No, tell me a story. Tell me tell me something about the end. What's on your mind right now? What's going on with you? What what tell me about Yeah, you can tell me something about your family, you could tell me something about pert, you know, something personal, you could tell me something about work. But whatever was going on with you at that moment, right? That that was in your mind, we could talk about it. And these these chats were always in confidence. And we got to so there would be a reveal on their part and reveal on my part, and we got to know each other a little better. So what I also learned was that helped me facilitate meetings better, you know, this, this gift of learning how to talk with people. So I'm not going to roll the dice. Or I'm not going to go figure out where to be project manager and do work that I don't enjoy as much and go figure out what I want to do. And motivational speaking training came to mind because that's when I was happiest when I was training and in front of people and delivering messages and helping people see the light bulb go on, you know what I'm saying? And that's what I enjoy about the the motivational speaking the training part that not everyone in the audience is going to have a light bulb go on over their head. But I figured 20% of the people are there because they want to be there. 20% are there because they either have to be or they don't want to be there. And the remaining 60% If I did my math, right, are there because they do they're open to being influenced one or one way or the other?
 
Leighann Lovely  09:16
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I love that you start off with tell me a story. People are so much more comfortable if they're presented or if it's presented that way. versus you know, tell me about yourself or tell me you know, I say it to my daughter all the time. Tell me a story and she says it back mommy told me a story. And and it's it's really cute because it one it opens up the creative minds. Totally. And when people when people are when you take away that fear when you kind of break down those those barriers, all of the sudden it's much easier to have open and honest conversation.
 
Roger Wolkoff  10:01
Isn't it though. And I found by leading also leading with something that that if you open and be a little vulnerable, the other person is going to follow without even thinking about it. Right? They're subconsciously going to think oh, okay, wow, now I feel like it's safe. Let's see how save I can be by revealing something I may tell you that I enjoy watching movies going out for sushi and skiing? Well, maybe that's just a small way of us, you know, oh, wait a minute, Oh, I like to go out to eat to really? Oh, do you? What kind of food do you like? Right? So right there, we're often running to a conversation that we might not have opened up a little bit about my likes,
 
Leighann Lovely  10:41
Right? Absolutely. You know, I used to be picked on way back in the day, and I completely understand. But people would say, you know, you're you're very quick to tell vulnerable things about yourself, you're very quick to be open about the fact that you have bipolar disorder. Now, not in business. This was in my personal relationships, right. And somebody once said to me, you know, maybe you should keep that to yourself. And I thought, well, you know, if you're uncomfortable with it, you don't have to, you don't have to be around me. Right. But when it came to my personal life, that's, that's the way I've always been. Now, years ago, it was not in my professional life, that was not something I was ever going to talk about. But what I realized was that the more open I was, the more genuine the relationships that I had in my life were. And it was only until recently that I realized that I could have true genuine relationships in my professional life as well, by being open about that, obviously, not just blurting it out all the time. But being your right, there's, there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable, people need to have a little bit of vulnerability people want to buy from somebody that they are able to be vulnerable with, and you understand people so much better when you can when you connect, and have that. So I would love to hear a little bit more about you know, your philosophies on, you know, the the coaching aspect and the our, yeah, the coaching aspect, or the the speaking aspect, you know, how did you really start to hone in on your sweet spots? And what really resonated with people?
 
Roger Wolkoff  12:27
Great question. I learned that the short answer is I've learned by listening. So it's kind of funny, right? Speaking, speaking is about listening. And so I sought a lot of information. Some of it came from the gut. And then I realized I needed to listen to what people wanted to hear. And so when I talk about motivational speaking, a lot of my programs are they're extremely interactive, you know, it's not just me standing up front, 45 minutes for an hour of me. And so what I'm what I'm getting at here is it became It soon became a mutually beneficial journey. And by that I mean, that I get as much as I give. So when I'm giving and making space for people to give on their part, oh my gosh, it enriches the conversation so much. I remember very early on thinking, Oh, my gosh, I have got to have all this content, I got to be the expert, how am I going to be the expert, right, all this talk going on in my head. And what I realized was I quickly got into my groove of listening. And so with my style of talking conversation, humor, planting humor, and not at the expense of others, but using situations to help people feel using humor and to help people feel more comfortable in situations. That's that that quickly evolved into my philosophy of talking about emotional intelligence, because emotional intelligence isn't a problem that people wake up thinking, Oh, I have a problem in emotional intelligence. Where do I go? We we think about emotional intelligence, like problems, a fair amount, like we ruminate on how we communicate with somebody we ruminate on. How did I say that? Did I come across a certain way? Gee, I wish I could have taken that back. Right? These are all things, social aspects, right? Social awareness, aspects of emotional intelligence that kind of keep us up at night. And so that's where I really attached to emotional intelligence and assessments like the DISC assessment for how we communicate. That is how I developed and continue to develop my, my particularly my particular philosophy,
 
Leighann Lovely  14:37
That's great. And, you know, it's funny. We now our generation, the generation that exists in the workplace, right now, we're, we're learning about emotional intelligence, which you would think that, gee, isn't that something that should be taught as children? Shouldn't we start teaching this? So right You smile, and you kind of laugh and you're like, well, it shouldn't have been I mean, shouldn't this be something that as we're raising our children, we, we explain to them that, if you're mad, that's okay. But here's how you deal with being mad, here's how to properly but for so long, and not so much in, you know, my growing up, my, my parents were great at, you know, kind of help, it's gotten better each generation. Now use us you hear parents regularly, you know, I'm at the playground or I'm at somewhere and I hear parents saying, you know, to their kids, it's okay to be mad, but you you're not allowed to, you know, hit. And this is how we can, we can, you know, use your anger constructively. And you're, you're actually hearing, you know, adults having those conversations with their four year olds, or their three, you know, three and five and six year olds. Now, and this is the basics to, you know, the, I mean, the very basics to emotional intelligence. And by the time that generation is in the workforce, they're going to go emotional Intel, what I mean, they're going to have this complete, right, it's going to be a complete and total different understanding of, of emotional intelligence, that it's going to have to be a completely different book on, you know, more of like emotional intelligence in the professional world versus just general emotional intelligence. But our society is, and again, we're always learning new things, or we're always evolving as humans and people, but you would think that we would have gotten this already, but we haven't. And it's just, it's just interesting that, you know, we're finally having those. Yes. Being happy is good. You know, being sad is, is okay, being angry is okay. But you're not allowed to go and scream at somebody else. Because you're angry, it's not there. And I love the poll, you had a post on LinkedIn that just really grabbed my attention. And that's where this kind of was going. You said, emotions are not problems to be solved? Yeah, it really grabbed my attention, because they're not.
 
Roger Wolkoff  17:17
They arent, and I'm glad, I'm glad you enjoy that one. That's how that's one of the first quotes I kick off the program within it, it gets people thinking so it that one speaks volumes to me too. So I'm glad it resonated with you. And I got to tell you, the whole quote is this emotions are not problems to be solved. They are signals to be interpreted. And that's not my quote, it comes from Veronica toogle Ava. She's the one who we attribute that to, and she's a poet, spoken word artist. It resonates with me, because I personally am highly sensitive to people's feelings I grew up in a space where emotions were not talked about there were there were negative connotations to emotions, we just weren't allowed to express emotions. And so that was an extreme struggle for me as a kid, because I'm a highly emotional, sensitive person. And so I learned growing up in that environment, I became highly, highly empathic to, to other to the situation in the road to other people's feelings to their moods, they're all kinds of stuff. So and that kind of stuff is this, you know, it was their facial expressions, it was the tone they were using. I was always analyzing Well, wait a minute that what you're saying is not jiving with your facial expressions, your body language, you know, there's something going on here. So it was a lot of survival mode type of stuff that I had to deal with. And so when I saw that emotions are signals to be interpreted, I'm like, yeah, they are. That's how that's how we do that. And I believe many of us, all of us, many of us, are programmed to respond to cues, whether we know it or not everyone has something in them that they respond somehow. And I think it's fascinating, particularly what we choose to do with that information we interpret and that information we receive, right, we're going to respond, we're going to react first, right? There's always reacting, you know, you say something that makes me angry, I can choose to swear or use some body language to tell you that I'm angry. But it's a different thing to process what you say and then respond appropriately or appropriate to the situation or appropriate to us. So, yeah, the emotions at times, we tend to think they are problems be solved, but they aren't.
 
Leighann Lovely  19:47
Right. Right and for so long. You know, and again, as a child I, for so long. My emotions were something that somebody else was trying to solve for me. You know, being somebody who was, I was, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in my 20s. But I struggled with, you know, other things as a child, so it was constantly, you know, you're sad, how do we make you happy? How do we, let's, let's figure this out, you know, what is you know, and it got to the point where it was just hide the emotions, because sometimes even showing those emotions, it gave the attention that I didn't want. So then it becomes, you know, just burying deep and down, and let's just pretend that you're not or, you know, just, again, I'm going down a path, I don't didn't necessarily want to go down. But there are, there's so many things that, you know, emotions that we learned as a kid that weren't necessarily or aren't necessarily the, the right course, to the way that we should. And we have learned now to, through emotional intelligence through and when did that book come? I mean, that book came out like, what it's been 10 Is it been 1014?
 
Roger Wolkoff  21:04
It's been a while I remember being introduced to it, you know, maybe 15, almost 20 years ago. Daniel Goleman. And Travis Bradbury and Jean graves. So I take a lot of work from Yeah, yeah, it's been around and, and, and what I loved about what you said earlier, is that, you know, we understand it now. And in the future, I'm hoping we can slice and dice it and get more fine tuned with it. You know, we have the opportunity to do that the more people embrace, embrace it, and practice it, and do research on it.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:37
Yeah. And now that you say that, I do remember the first time that I read that was a very long time ago, and it's, but it hit really mainstream, probably within the last 10. Like, about eight Yeah, so it wasn't long time ago that it cuz I remember somebody giving us me saying you should read this. And I'm like, Oh, I already read that, but a long time ago. But it's it's so interesting that you know, how people think that you that you have one control over your emotions? Oh, well, you shouldn't feel that way about this. Well, how do I have I you know, that's, that's something that's going on in my brain chemistry, that's, it's a, it's, you know, an inherit reaction that doesn't, that we don't physically have control over. It's, it's a chemical reaction that's happening within my body, and I'm going to feel the way that I'm going to feel I'm gonna have a reaction that I'm gonna have. Now maybe if I had more understanding of a situation that's, that's going on, I may have a different reaction. But what's happening is not your place to solve it. It's just trying to understand it. And I think more people need to have that desire to understand other people. And really, most things come down to trying to just be empathetic and understanding to other people, it goes back to the saying of, hey, walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. I guarantee, right, you're a guarantee that you're going to come back and you're going to have a different outlook on the situation. So you know, I'm interested to know, you've been you've been at this now for, like I said, nearly six years. So obviously, things have changed within the last two, and I can't believe that, you know, my gosh, the pandemic hits. Well, I can't What 19, 2019? Right. Yeah, yeah. 2020
 
Roger Wolkoff  23:28
Okay. Right into February, March 2020.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:31
Right, we're in we're in 2022. Now, aren't we? Yeah, I know, it's worth I know. So I can't believe it's been that long. It's it's insane to think that it's that this has been been part of our lives for that long. But so obviously, the the world looks very different today, over the last two years than it did when you originally started doing what you were doing. So what has changed? I mean, has, has your job been impacted? A great deal in, in the things that you address and the things that you talk about when you go and do? Do what you do?
 
Roger Wolkoff  24:08
Yeah, it changed dramatically, obviously, from being on a stage to being behind a camera. And that was fine. That that I quickly turned. But in terms of what my job is it, the pandemic and everything surrounding the pandemic, really, in my opinion, accentuated people's emotions, all across the spectrum. And we're seeing the effects of that we see reports of that coming out and some of the things that I that I started to do early on. I told you, I do interactive, a lot of interactive work. And one of the questions that I asked in all of my programs was, what emotions are you feeling right now? And I asked people to put three emotions in just three words. What are you feeling right now? And the three that came that that continue to come up the most often are tired, anxious, exhausted, you know, and I was like, wow, tired and exhausted. Okay? So those are those really go to the top in words like them go to the top. Sprinkled throughout there our messages are our words like hope curious, excited things like that. So it depends on where people are feeling. So the way that my job has changed, it's turned the dial up on paying attention to how people want to be seen and heard. If you want my opinion, glad you asked on what I think the great resignation is about, right? That's what I think has happened now with companies and how it's changed my job. People are looking for answers. And it's some of the answers have been the same all along, people want to be seen and heard. And if they're not being seen and heard, then they are leaving and starting their own companies starting other work doing something else that gives them joy, or jumping ship and going to a company that is going to listen to them. So for me what what it's done. It's the way it's impacted my job is it means that I too, and listening more to other people. And I've had to pay attention to my own particular burnout, my anxiety, keep my eyes out for you know how I'm dealing with my needs of being seen and heard. And for me, that shows up what I used to do a lot of in person networking. Not sure if it comes through, but I'm an extrovert. And so I really I enjoy being around people, I enjoy thinking around people. So what it meant for me was I had to change the way that I get my energy and, and pay attention to safety at the same time. So the way that it's changed is I'm having different conversations with companies. And I'm continuing to do what I did very early on in my career, which was listen more intently to what to what they need.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:01
And I suppose that it's from somebody who is very much an empath, you're used to being in the room with somebody who's reading the energy of individuals read the energy of people.
 
Roger Wolkoff  27:16
Yeah. Boy, did that have to change. I remember the first big zoom presentation I was doing. And I found myself missing that right. You know, normally I would be in the room. I'd be greeting people. I'd be talking to people what brought you here? What do you love about the city where you are? What do you love about the commune, I'd be engaging people in conversation and in conversation. And for me, I mean, it was also like filling me with energy. I'm like, you can see me kind of moving over here, I'm like ready to go on screen. And I had to find new ways to do that. And so that meant I now interact with people early, when I come on a virtual presentation, I engage them in the chat, or I come up with an exercise that gets everybody engaged. So I can tell through words and perhaps body language, and facial, facial language, what kind of group or crowd I have and make some interpretations that way. And I experimented with that early on and so far I've been on par with and doing well with with that. But yeah, it was quite an adjustment.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:26
Yeah, I can imagine and, and I'm very much like you I get great energy from being around other people I try to, you know, try to step into a crowd or I gravitate towards the energy in the room, you know, the people who are laughing the people who are, you know, excitable in the room, I have a tendency to gravitate towards those people versus the quiet people who are sitting at a table, you know, and I'm talking about, like, networking group, you're not going to find me sitting quietly at a table waiting for an event to start and you're going to you're gonna see me, you know, Flit flitting around the room talking to everybody. And you know, being the person that's, you know, being told three times, hey, the program is going to start we'll sit down and I'm going yes, yeah, I know. I know. I just got to get this one last word in. You know, it should be no wonder I run a podcast I I'm forcing people to sit down with me and talk with you know, it's right. There are people who get their energy from that. And then there's the opposite, where that exhausts them. And by the end of an event, they are running out the door completely ready to go home. Isolate and, and just, they need a break. And I right, and, hey, my husband is that way. After, you know, being around a ton of people. He's like, I can't I can't I just I just need a beat. I need to go relax, go play my video game. And I'm like, Okay, I don't get it. Like I have no understanding of it. I am understand like that you need that. I'll give that to you. But it doesn't make sense in my head. I don't understand why. I'm like, Well, I'm totally like revved up and ready to go. Let's do it again right now. You're syco
 
Roger Wolkoff  30:15
No, I get it. I learned early on, there were some people who coached me that in a group, like in an interactive session, call out the people who are quiet. And that seemed to not go that went against my grain. And so I stopped doing it. And I looked for I would look people in the eyes, and if they engaged, engage, but if they didn't, then that meant to me they were not comfortable and not ready to be called on. And so I was rewarded with that with with feedback is what I'm saying by reward after, after one of my programs in September, everybody was coming back from lunch, and a group of three women stopped me. And they say, Oh, we enjoyed the presentation, I said, thank you. And they said, I want to thank you so much for, you know, noticing that we did not want to engage, we've been in in sessions just like this. And presenters will always call on us because they think we're a challenge. And they want you know, it's about them. And, you know, they just want to they just want to make us talk and we want to say thank you, because this is one of the first times that that's never happened. And I thought, wow, wow. It, it validated what I thought about, you know, being able to read an audience incense, perhaps, correctly or incorrectly, but mostly correctly, that there are times in places for putting, asking people to step outside their comfort zone. So it's another learning and I won't do you know, I won't do that. I won't call out people in chat either. If they're not responding on Zoom, either, you know, if you're going to participate, you're going to participate. So just another awareness, as we talked about that, you know, in respecting where they come from,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:59
right, there are certain people who like to be pushed. And then then there, there are a great deal of people who don't want to be pushed, they want to come absorb the information and walk away. And you clearly have figured out a way to, to understand who those people are. And that's, that's a gift. That is definitely a gift because then there's me, I'm just espousal walk up to anybody, and just be like, Hey, I'm in your face, talk to me. Yeah, when they don't respond, I do. Let them go off. You know, I let them off the hook and walk away and all that, like, You're crazy. Anyways, okay, so we're coming to time. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your in your life or your career path? When would that be in white? Do you want me to repeat that?
 
Roger Wolkoff  32:49
I got to. Okay, I got you. I follow the thread. I find the thread. Yeah, what a great question for the season. I applaud that. For me, I gotta tell you, when I took a an assessment, it was called Managing personal growth. This was while I was in corporate. So I took managing personal growth about 10 to 15 years ago. And it was it was a an assessment and instrument that my manager and I took. And the course was about identifying my values and the skills required to do the work that I was doing as a project manager. And I, I answer as honestly as I could. So I love the part about values. It's where I found out about, you know, I value freedom mine, I value pleasure, I enjoy experiences, that was a great part. The fun part was when the the magic behind the scenes crossed the skills with what my manager said my job should be. And what I answered. There was only a 5% overlap. I was like, huh, this ought to be a fun conversation. Wow. Yeah. And thank goodness, I had a very kind manager, Brenda, she, she said, I'm not surprised. And I thought, Wow, that's great. So immediately, we had a very kind conversation. So the aha moment for me, the big difference was, I was doing work that was not fulfilling me. And it was a pivotal moment because it set me on a path to say well, what kind of work do you enjoy? It stopped me from saying I should be doing x I should be making X amount of money I should should write, you know, we know about what happens when you should on yourself. So I, I thought, okay, she said, What do you want to do? I said, I want to get up in front of people in train, I want to I want to, I want to see light bulbs go off on you know, I want them I want them to feel like you know that they make a difference, right? How do I go about doing that? I was just very broad with it. And she said, Well, let's get you on a path to do that. And we started and it took me it took me another three four years before I finally listened. And to the advice there I was really I was my own personal barrier. But but that time taking that assessment, finding my values and realizing that there was some good things that I that I could do as a project manager, I mean, I, I was a good project manager, I just didn't enjoy doing some of this stuff. So I took what I enjoyed out of it, like I said earlier, facilitating, being able to work a room, being able to identify barriers work with people. And that's when I started on my journey to figure out how to make a career out of it and start my own business.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:31
That's amazing. Now, you said she wasn't surprised. Right? How surprised were you?
 
Roger Wolkoff  35:40
I know, it's interesting. That's a great question. Leann. I, I don't think I made room for surprise. I was so fearful at the time that I was going to get fired. That I was going to get found out that I you know, that somebody was going to realize that I really didn't enjoy this kind of work. And that I so how surprised was I? If I look back on it, I would have to say I was not very, you know, looking back on it when it died when it started listing out the things that you know, I meet that were highly valued in the in the work, and how much I enjoyed compared to how much I enjoyed them. That was not a surprise. So honestly, I can tell you right now, it wasn't that much of a surprise.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:25
Right? You deep down, you knew that you did not enjoy the work. It was a job that you went to do and you
 
Roger Wolkoff  36:36
Go to Job, show up, do work, get paid? Repeat, you know, and there wasn't, in my opinion, any room for joy or dreaming about what it is I really wanted to do. And yeah, let's learn learned.
 
Leighann Lovely  36:50
Right now, how many people do you think are out there? That that's what they do?
 
Roger Wolkoff  36:57
They? Yeah, just go to work punch ticket, get paid. Come back, do it again. I don't boy. Gosh, I don't know. I'd say based on what, based on what I read, I'd say anyway, this is a rough guess 60 to 80% of people are not doing work that they enjoy. And I think that has to do with how engaged they feel in the work now being engaged. I think that's a two way street, it's up to the employee and the employer. But based on the data, I'd say it's somewhere around that, that people are not doing work that they were either meant to do or that they enjoy doing.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:31
Right. And, and I don't think that it's it's that hard of the fix. Because people can go and people can go and do a job I could. If I needed to provide for my family, I could go and do. Right, whatever every day. And I could enjoy it if the company found a way to make me feel truly valued. Now, what happened when you got your results to that was that your manager didn't say, Well, how dare you not enjoy this? She said, how can we build on this? How can we? How can we offer something more that you will enjoy? And eventually, you know, you left them but you found more fulfillment in trying new things and trying to get a little bit more. So you did stay for what another three years?
 
Roger Wolkoff  38:28
Right? Another three, four years? Yeah, right.
 
Leighann Lovely  38:31
So it sometimes it's not about the work so much. Because there are individuals out there who don't mind the work. They're not not necessarily fulfilled by the work. They may not have skills to do anything else. But if their company were to offer them an awesome environment, offer them i Hey, you're doing a really great job. We're having a company picnic this weekend, bring your family, we'd love to see you there we really want and truly engage in their employees. I guarantee that that employee would be at least at least 25 to 30% happier at that employment. And just that little I mean, and that's just the the beginning. Now with every other employee at that company had a better attitude, and enjoyed going to that job because their employer also, you know, treated them well. I guarantee that number would go from 22 to 30 up to 40% because all of a sudden now you have employees engaging with other employees. Now they're not standing around the watercooler talking about how shitty their employer is. They're talking about, Hey, did you see the game? Hey, did you and you have camaraderie happening? Totally. Totally. And I just And yes, you know I say oh, it's not that hard of a fix. We're talking about overhauling the culture of every company in the world. Well, we're in the United States at least. But it happens when a company decides we need to make a change. That's the first step. Right? It is, and nothing's nothing ever happens. ever happens if you don't make a decision to make it happen, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's got to start somewhere. And there are so many coaches, there are so many companies out there that are popping up saying, hey, we want to help you with that. We can make your company better, we can offer this, Hey, come listen to my podcast I'm trying to help you. Right. And then I can maybe put you in contact with somebody who can be a motivational speaker for you and talk to you.
 
Roger Wolkoff  40:52
Right, that's the way this all works. And that's why I was saying Were you and I are doing great work and helping people, one person, one group at a time. And that's the value that I love about being on podcasts like yours that is doing such good work. So thank you for keeping the message going. And thank you for for having me on.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:13
Thank you so much, Roger, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time today. And again, we are doing great work on you know, you just have an amazing background. And you know, maybe one of these days I'll have the opportunity to I don't know hear you speak.
 
Roger Wolkoff  41:28
Maybe. Maybe I get out there.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:31
All right. Thank you so much.
 
Roger Wolkoff  41:35
You're welcome. Thank you, Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  41:36
If you are interested in reaching out to Roger Wolkoff. You can reach him at his website on www dot Roger walkoff.com or reach out to him on LinkedIn. You can also reach out to him at his email address. Roger at Roger wall cough calm. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Roger’s Profile - linkedin.com/in/rogerwolkoff
Website - rogerwolkoff.com
Email - roger@rogerwolkoff.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 14 - Good Friend Inc - Denise and Chelsea

Two amazing women with a mission, one close to the heart and for an amazing cause. 
Denise Schamems and Chelsea Budde Co-Founders of Good Friend Inc. 
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:05
This is going to be an awesome episode today. I am talking with two amazing women. In fact, this company was referenced in Episode 4 when I spoke with Alejandra Fraga good friend, Inc. It is a 501 C three public charity dedicated to creating autism awareness, teaching acceptance of differences and fostering empathy for individuals with autism. Both of these women through good friend Inc. have provided Autism Awareness, Acceptance and Empathy training for more than 54,000 K4 through 10th grade students in Wisconsin since its inception in 2007 I have Denise Schamens joining me and Chelsea Budde. Denise has three children two that are neurodivergent. Due to her firsthand experiences, she served for 10 years as a school district family engagement liaison for CESA1, she has served as cofounder and creative director. Her passion lies in the creative pursuit within and outside the organization. As creative director, she is a four time short film director, editor, a theatrical set designer, a university guest lecturer, and a frequent conference presenter in 2013. She became the first generation of facilitator for Sibshops, and has since led the good friend team in providing eight years of connected sibling workshops. Her latest short film has been screened in five different film festivals throughout the country and Canada. Receiving three separate awards she loves connecting people and being connected. Chelsea is the executive director and co founder of good friend Inc. Her work inspiration comes from her two neurodivergent young adult children whose journey has taught not only Chelsea but so many others in addition to being a trainer. She's also a writer, university guest lecturer, and conference presenter. While her bachelor's degree comes from St. Norbert College, her continuing education over the last 14 years with good friend ink has yielded the most valuable lessons. Welcome Denise and Chelsea. I'm so excited to have you both here with me today.
 
Denise Schamens  03:47
Thanks, Leighann.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:49
So you both are so amazing. And what you do Good Friend Inc. is an amazing, an amazing organization that provides so much good information to the world. I would love to have you both tell me a little bit about how you started on this mission. Why don't you go first Denise?
 
Denise Schamens  04:07
Okay, I was like, usually we like, you know, when we're in person we can like look at each other who's gonna take this doesn't work so well this way? Um, well, you know, I know we're gonna get into some more meat about Good Friend, but just like the origin of how it began, I can tell you almost 15 years this August. I had gotten to the point as a parent liaison, and I think that was talked about in my bio, I was doing a support group for the District of Waukesha. And I was trying to have it be a meaningful group. And I knew there was over 150 families in the walkshop district that needed some kind of special education support. And so I I really wanted to, you know, make an impact there and I had been doing that for three years. And it was only getting the same nine to 12 parents to show up. And it was so aggravating for me. Because I wanted to, yeah, just have more of an impact my son was in first grade. And I really thought that it was time to figure out this, you know, a different way. And so I had been going into my son's classroom, and I'd sit down with his, his classmates, and I tell them about his autism and how it affected him. Sam's autism affects him mostly in his communication ability. But at that time, he was also having a lot of regulation issues and sensory issues. And so for me, I felt like I had to do a lot of explaining so that they could just understand how they could reach out or support or be a friend. And so I was doing that. And, you know, they all had such great questions. And the teachers were engaged, like, everybody was super engaged in this casual way of educating. And so I kept noodling on that and like, Alright, how can I, you know, how can this get better knowing that our district only had one guidance counselor that was traveling to all of the schools, and at the time, we had 17 elementary schools? And I'm like, how are these kids getting their questions answered, It just was frustrating to me. So I kept here I have this support group that's not really doing anything. And here, I go into the classroom. And it's like, something's bubbling here. And so I had this mom that kept coming, one of my regulars in the in the group. And she was just so opposite of me. So my background is art and fine arts and commercial art. And she comes in with binders, right? She comes in with all these resources to share with the families and I'm like, Oh, gee, so I have to talk to her. So that was Chelsea and I, you know, I said, we need to meet for coffee, I've got a little idea. I just want to throw past you. And she's like, okay, and I'll she'll tell you her side of it. But that's what we did. We met and had coffee. And, you know, the rest is history after that.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:03
Awesome, Chelsea, I'd love to hear your side.
 
Chelsea Budde  07:07
Yeah, that's, you know, pretty much without being inside Denise's head before I was coming to said meetings with said binder. I, had two kids at the time who were on the autism spectrum. And I had been working at a public relations agency up until my son was about 15 months old. And it was clear that I wasn't going to be able to stay working. And so I stayed home to be with my kiddos. And as they were going through intensive in home therapy, I was really looking for other families to connect with I had good fortune of being able to be a stay at home mom, when my kids were young, I was able to go to a lot of conferences, a lot of kind of continuing education opportunities and soak up all this information. And the internet wasn't nearly as robust, you know, 20 years ago, as it is now. So I did, I had my binders full of resources and color coded tabs because I thought, you know, I've had the luxury of being able to track all this information down. And I want to make sure that I can share it with other families who aren't as fortunate. So that was kind of my idea. I was coming to this, all of Denise's meetings armed because I was going to make sure that people had what they needed. And hopefully connect with some other families as well. So yeah, when it was getting to a point where my youngest was going to be heading to kindergarten, and I was already kicking around career wise, like, what do I do? Do I go back to the PR firm that I was writing for before I was raising these humans, and that didn't really resonate with me all that well, I knew what the culture was at that workplace. And it was not one that was conducive to being a parent at all, quite frankly, let alone a parent to kids who were neurodivergent. So when Denise approached me like, Hey, do you think we should make a movie about autism for kids without autism? Like, yeah, that sounds perfect. Let's make a curriculum, lets do a Nonprofit. And, you know, of course, we had no idea how to do any of those things. They just seem like really good ideas. And so that, you know, it was the summer of research the summer of 2007, before we incorporated as a nonprofit, and yeah, and like Denise said, the rest is history.
 
Leighann Lovely  09:22
And that's, that's amazing. Coming together with obviously, an understanding that you're you're doing this because you have common ground, you're experiencing life, and you're experiencing it together yet obviously separate you have separate families, but common ground so often brings people together because you have an understanding of what the two of you are experiencing at home and you you want to educate others because you know that that's the human side of life. You want other people to understand your children and what they're experiencing to better their lives, I mean, that's just, it's amazing. I just, I think the two of you are just so awesome and, and what you do.
 
Denise Schamens  10:10
When I'm thinking of something Leighann, as you're saying that like when, you know, tell us what brought us together was autism and our children, but what kept what helps, you know, foster this nonprofit was our positive outlook on them, and wanting to wanting to change, you know, the future for them and wanting to have an impact. And I think that has helped us remain this long, because we're, you know, we're not woe is me, you know, I have this terrible burden to live with. It's more like, you know, what, this is great. How can we, you know, help people really get it the way we get it. And we had that commonality, which I think is a very strong point.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:54
Right? I mean, and I remember as, as a child, not understanding any different child, you know, you you, as a young kid, elementary school, if there was a child who was different from you, most parents didn't, they didn't even know how to explain that to their child's whether that be somebody who is hearing impaired somebody who had vision, you know, loss, whether that be just the simple, and I did, I went to elementary school with a with another child who had that was hearing impaired. And I remember them trying to come in and explain that, but we, we, as children didn't know how to connect with this other students, and to have somebody come in and say, Okay, here's how you can be a good friend, to my son, would have been so beneficial, not only to myself, but to that other child to not feel alienated to not feel like he couldn't reach out or communicate or, and there were ways that we could have reached out and been there or become friends had we been given the tools to do so. And it's, and again, this is, it's a symptom of the times, you know, we can only do as good as we can with the information that we have. There's, I'm not faulting anybody at that time. It's just, but now we've come so far in how we can teach and how we can educate and the knowledge and the understanding that we have, and I commend you for what you do. And, and, you know, now the studies that that are out there are offering so much more information and allowing children to be able to, you know, understand so much more. And so that's it's just, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. So, as you have watched your children go, you've also witnessed many other children on the spectrum grow and become adults, you know, that are entering the workforce, you know, do you have plans to educate employers? And, you know, how, what does that what does that look like for you?
 
Denise Schamens  13:09
Exciting stuff
 
Denise Schamens  13:12
It is, it's really, you know, I think Denise and I have been talking about this as parents for a while, right, you know, you start talking about this transition that happens in education in the state of Wisconsin, we start talking about that transition, like what happens after high school, and how do we prepare for it, that conversation starts when students with individualized education plans are 14 years old. And IT services can go through the public education system until they're 21. And then there's, you know, somewhere in between that 18 to 21 range, there's what's called a service cliff. And it's as if these humans just come in, kind of fall off of a system. And if you as a family aren't really deliberate and making sure they get engaged in the adult system. There's nothing left. And so we were trying to figure out, Okay, here's how we're engaging as parents, how can we engage as an organization and it's such a different world. But it's ferrets, when we were going through it, we're trying to wrap our head around it just from a family standpoint, I can tell you at one point, I thought I had this transition thing figured out, and then all of a sudden my son's Medicaid stopped accepting claims. I'm like, what, what happened there? So that was a six month process of trying to get that back on track. So when it came to, what are we doing in schools? And how do we do that with employers, we realized that we were just overthinking the whole process. What it's really about what good friends always been about is taking the people who surround someone on the autism spectrum, and making sure they better understand autistic neurology, and how to interact with humans who wrote who are neurodivergent and we're just going to basically be doing the same thing for employers. Now, employers are kind of in a mindset, some of them not enough, frankly, have diversity, equity and inclusion So when employers are thinking about DEI, sometimes they're just thinking kind of about gender equality or ethnic and racial equality. And we want them to think about neurodiversity. So about brain based equality, and what kind of accommodations do we need to do to make sure that people who are neurodivergent people who are on the autism spectrum, feel like they belong there and have a place and have a way to be able to showcase their abilities. So that's kind of where good friend is going in the employer space is making sure that, you know, recruiters are thinking about autistic talents, and hiring managers are figuring out how to onboard them. And the people who are working with an autistic colleague know how to interact with them. So this is the good stuff because this is the rest of the lifespan. And Sad to say, at this point, only four out of five autistic adults is employed. And so that's just no good. And we know as a community, we can do better. And we know that good friend can be part of helping the community do better.
 
Leighann Lovely  16:01
You said in there a couple of times how somebody can be prepared working with, you know, somebody who is neurodivergent. But I'm assuming there's no cookie cutter answer to that, just like working with any human. There's no cookie cutter answer, everybody is different. So where do you begin?
 
Denise Schamens  16:24
Well, I think what Chelsea was saying is, you know, we're we're using the same framework that we use in our education services. And so we, you know, we name it, we call it autism, and then we talk about all the areas that someone could be affected by that or impacted by that. So that could be communication that could be social, emotional, that could be sensory, that could be just all those different ways that we sit in a space and have to work, understanding where and how they're experiencing that space, and being respectful of it. And then I think the other thing that we're trying to help employers see is the value in hiring somebody with maybe a little bit different perspective, and a different way of looking at things. So seeing some value there, and then also creating a safe place for them to disclose. So that it's okay for them, you know, they're not going to be passed over for a job promotion, they're not going to you know, because of this, it's like, we just want to somewhat normalize it so that they can all be, you know, that's what we do in the schools. It's like, we're all different. We're all experiencing things in different ways. So let's talk about the way that we're experiencing some of those things. So it's just kind of, you know, getting in there deep and talking about in really understanding how that individual experiences the world.
 
Leighann Lovely  17:55
Okay, so it's more of the end for many of many people who might be listening, they may not be aware of what it even means to be on the spectrum, to be, you know, to have autism, right. So tell me some of the things that as an employer, you may have to be prepared for.
 
Chelsea Budde  18:17
So the social communication piece is usually the biggest one that people are paying attention to. I mean, when you think about how autism is diagnosed, it's not like there's a brain scan or something like that, there's no physical features that you can point to, as to whether someone is on the spectrum or not. So it's kind of a subjective assessment. And the diagnostic criteria were created by people not on the autism spectrum and without their input. So there are a lot of people who come at their autism understanding and perhaps even diagnosis or not diagnosis from different angles. But social communication seems to be a hallmark. And there's kind of like a medical model of disability and a social model of disability. So from the medical model standpoint, we talk about deficits in social communication. So, you know, maybe someone on the autism spectrum as a child doesn't have many peer relationships, maybe their social relationships are either with children much younger than they are or with adults, because adults are less judgmental, and younger children have a social competency that's better acquainted with what they're experiencing in their own bodies and minds. So, you know, that could be part of it. And then the communication part being different. So for some people on the autism spectrum, you know, conversation skills are really tough verbal processing might be delayed, it might take longer to understand what someone is saying and then to be able to formulate a reliable spoken response. So maybe part of their communication style is they prefer to text or they prefer to send an email, you know, maybe live spoken language. which is difficult, maybe eye contact is difficult with spoken language. And so they need to look away in order to gather their verbal thoughts to be able to share with somebody else. So I think that's a big thing when we talk about even interviewing, right? How does somebody interview if eye contact is tricky? And if live questions with spontaneous answers are required, that might be really tricky. So another one that Denise brought up is kind of that sensory experience. So many people on the autism spectrum, because their brains are wired differently, are going to experience sensory input differently. And so we have to think about, you know, what kind of things do we have in our work environment, that might be causing problems for people on the autism spectrum, and that work environment might be a barrier to them, you know, showing up with their best selves or being able to demonstrate their best work. So I think those are two big considerations that employers and colleagues and people on the autism spectrum themselves are going to have conversations about in the process.
 
Leighann Lovely  21:05
You know and it's, it's interesting, you say, work environment, because, you know, in today's world, you know, somebody who's interested in computer, somebody who's interested in any, anything that can be done via remote, could be very beneficial for for them, because now they are communicating quite a bit over email over all of the things that you just mentioned, you also have that safe distance of being on a team's zoom call. Have you seen that this is that this could possibly be a good thing for some individuals.
 
Denise Schamens  21:46
I think there's been articles and studies that have been done on this actually, that show, like, you know, we've been spending so much time saying you must be in an office, and the pandemic happened, and no one could be in an office, and everyone had to do these kinds of things. And these are accommodations that people with disabilities, not just autism have been asking for forever. And so to find out that this is a better way, for a lot of people, not just autistic or disabled people, I think has been very enlightening to everyone who said, Oh, no, we can't make that accommodation, that's unreasonable.
 
Denise Schamens  22:18
Now, there's so many barriers to being in person in you know, in a workplace for, like, my son's not going to be able to drive so he's not going to be able to drive himself to his job. So you know, when you're looking at before pre pandemic, when we were looking at trying to get him to employment, if it wasn't us, dropping them off, what our options, you know, you've got some taxi services, and Uber and things like that, but then you're paying just as much as they're making in that day, to get them to that job. And that's just not, that's just not gonna sustain itself. Right. And so we so I think the pandemic helped in a lot of ways, you know, for individuals that can't do all or can't participate in person in that way. And now they can participate in a space that is accepting and is safe and is set up for them. So yeah, has a lot to do, I think with the success.
 
Leighann Lovely  23:15
Yeah. And you know, recently, I would love to hear what your thoughts are on this. Recently, there has been so many, so much more talk of people coming out with a wide variety of disabilities have a wide variety of mental health, a wide, so many people are starting to have these conversations, and I'm hearing more and more people who are talking about the fact that, yes, I'm on the spectrum, and not not just people who are people who are wildly or how do I say this, I'm extremely successful, that you never would have thought, Oh, you're you're running your own chain restaurant, and you're on the spectrum. And again, that sounds I feel like I've just insulted somebody in some way. Because it's not that I don't think that somebody who's on the spectrum is capable, they're 100% capable. There's all different ranges. But it's just it's kind of an eye opener to go, oh, that that's amazing. And now people are starting to talk about it. They're starting to talk about, you know, but we also have a better understanding of you can, being on the spectrum doesn't mean that you have a disability that stops you from being able to function, it just means and what I'm hearing from you is that your brain thinks or works differently than what we as a society has classified as normal. But in reality, what is normal? I mean,
 
Chelsea Budde  24:55
that's the million dollar question isn't Leighann
 
Denise Schamens  24:58
Right, its a Dryer setting, I think that's a popular phrase. Just a dryer setting,
 
Leighann Lovely  25:03
Right? Yes. That's a great one. Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, and I, personally, I've had I went through therapy for years, and I use the topic that I used to walk in and ask my therapist is, is this the way that I'm feeling right now? Is this normal? And you'd go? Well, I don't know. Is it? Is it feel normal to you? And I hate when you say that to me. I don't know. Is that asking you is this a normal feeling? And he goes, I can't answer that for you. You have to figure out if it's normal. And I'm like, right. Okay, let me rephrase. Is this the socially acceptable, normal? And he's like, Well, I don't know, is it and I'm like, Ah, this conversations go nowhere. But it is the reality of the world we're living in now. There, I don't know that we actually have a normal anymore.
 
Denise Schamens  26:00
I think it's really exciting. I think it's super exciting, that autistics are, are finding their voice and are feeling safe and comfortable enough to disclose that. And I think we couldn't be at a better point. To be rolling into this territory as an organization, I think it's the timing is just perfect.
 
Leighann Lovely  26:21
It is. And this conversation should have been happening, like so many other conversations that should have been happening. Years and years ago, I know that the first time I ever knew that anything like autism existed was what the movie with Rain Man. I think that was the first time I had ever known, like, Oh, what is? What is this all about? And then, and then that movie went away, you know, didn't go away. But you know, kind of the popularity of that died down and then you never had anybody talk about it again. And it's like, why not?
 
Chelsea Budde  26:57
You know, but it's, it's important. And I think, you know, Denise is pointing to like the cultural shift that's been happening, right. So just like you said, Leighann, with mental health issues, and everyone being more willing to talk about mental health, health issues, especially over the course of the pandemic, the last couple of years, it's forcing us to realize that everybody has something going on, whether it's with them individually, maybe they're a caretaker or a loved one to someone who's struggling with a mental health issue. And by talking about what, you know, pre pandemic was 15% of the population experiencing now they're saying 60% of the population is experiencing some sort of diagnosable mental health issue. That's a huge percentage. And so for us to not be talking about it doesn't do anyone any favors. And so if we keep changing the culture to one of psychological safety to one where you can bring your authentic self, you don't have to mask, that's something that people on the autism spectrum are talking about how exhausting it is, to pretend to be neurotypical, to try to show up the way that their neuro majority peers want them to show up, it's not going to allow them to do their best work. And so you know, to be able to come into a space and go, Look, I can't wear this uniform, I can't have these lights, I can't have this chair, and I can't have your music. And to be able to explain that and say this is because of my neurology is only going to make it better for everybody. Because, you know, autistic people can't change their brain wiring, and we shouldn't expect them to there should be no part of us, that's asking them to change who they are, to be able to bring their best work.
 
Leighann Lovely  28:39
Right. And we've been making concessions for other disabilities for for as long as I can remember, you know, if you want to hire, or buildings are required, and have been required to have a wheelchair ramp for as long as I can remember, certain certain buildings, you know, government buildings, they're required to have. It's it's so why have we only been making concessions for that? Why have we only been making concessions for certain things, but not for other things that have existed for just as long? Right? I mean, it's, it's, and I have seen companies go above and beyond for, you know, employees who have come forward and say I have an I am trying to think of I had met a woman and she she told me right off the bat that she had to it's a sense or it's a sensory thing in the way that she hears things and they actually created in her office, she was all enclosed in it was all glass. It was all enclosed, so that the noise wouldn't bother her. You know, companies have made concessions make concessions all the time. But there are certain population of people who are forgotten about
 
Denise Schamens  29:56
Well in that in that example that you gave, that's awesome. ously a safe place to ask for those accommodations, right? And that's what we're trying to change. We're trying to help them understand that you these are the things that you can do to help make it be a safe place to disclose that, then you can get the information for each individual and what they personally need as an accommodation. And, you know, then the rest you can just handle I mean, that's just that place, obviously, was a safe place to do so.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:27
Right? Yeah, right. And more and more companies need to realize that you can hire great people, there are great people available for work, and right and how we need good people. Yeah. You know, and as a, as obviously, a recruiter who's doing this all the time I hear company, well, there's no people, well, there are people, but you have to one be willing to train and companies that I don't have time to train, well, you're going to have to make time. Sorry, but you're, if you don't make the time now, you you may not be in business a year from now, because you don't have anybody to run your, your production line, you got to you got to make time, you got to figure out, you know, get your priorities straight here. Make time,
 
Denise Schamens  31:15
If we're forward facing as, as an employer, with being safe and being accommodating, you're going to retain though, you're gonna retain all your employees, like who would want to leave that if they know that their employer is looking out for them, and isn't gonna hold something over them or, you know, judge them for whatever they're going through, that's like, across the board, you're gonna retain, you're gonna have an amazing team, right? So it's like, it's gonna cross over into all your employees, everyone's gonna benefit from being inclusive and being forward facing with belonging and acceptance,
 
Leighann Lovely  31:54
Right, and the companies that are investing the money now are going to reap the benefits year after year after year after year. But it's so hard to, you know, go in and pitch the, you need to put the money up. And I understand there are a lot of companies that have been struggling because of the pandemic and, you know, talking to them about, you need to change your culture, you need to hire somebody to help you change the culture, if you can't do it on your own, you know, you need to invest in your company, some companies, they just literally don't have the money, but the companies that are doing it, they're going to reap the reward over the next 1015 20 years, because they're gonna see that they are retaining employees, they are getting employees that want to work for them. They're the employees that are working, are telling their friends that this is a great company, I can be myself. Either way, I don't have to do that exhausting thing of pretending that I am somebody that I'm not. And I have experienced that I'd have to No, put on that face and pretend that I'm somebody that I'm not and going home and being so emotionally exhausted, that there were days that I just couldn't even get myself to go into the office because it is exhausting. And I can't imagine what individuals with autism go through trying to put on that face, trying to be something that they're not.
 
Chelsea Budde  33:17
Right, it's just I want to I just wanted to circle back for a minute Lian on the training idea. And I think there's something that not a whole lot of employers know about or take advantage of. And the Department of Workforce Development, Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, has a work experience program. And this is usually, you know, youth with disabilities. But these services, if you need DVR services, as long as you qualify as a person with a disability, you're eligible for employment services, and that includes vocational training. And that includes this concept of a work experience. So you can come in as someone who wants to kind of try on a position. So let's say it is in manufacturing, for example, and you are looking for someone to work online. And someone with a disability like autism is willing to try on what manufacturing might be like for them. The employer of record is the persons with a disability. It's the DVR client that they're working with. So that job developer is the one paying that employee's wages while they're learning on the job. So and sometimes that person might be supported by a job coach, that job coach is also covered by DVR funds. And so this could last up to 12 weeks. So, you know, let's say in the case of my son, for example, he started out with a DVR work experience and had a job coach and was kind of learning how to do the job, eight weeks and he was functioning independently. And so, you know, I approached the employer and I said, Hey, this was at this time, this was a summer opportunity. So why don't you hire him for the rest of the summer? And so, you know, they kind of went back and discussed and they're like, why would we just hire him for the rest of the summer, he fits in great here, he knows how to do the job, he's doing it independently, let's just make it an outright hire. And so then, you know, by the time he was 10 weeks into that work experience, he started to go through the same kind of hiring and onboarding process that any other employee would. And then the employer of record at that point when he had completed became the company that he had been with at that point for nearly 12 weeks. So I think that's a something that employers really ought to consider is working with DVR and job developers to find people with disabilities who are looking for jobs, and they need an opportunity to kind of try something on. And so that goes on both sides, right, the the employer is trying on that employee, the prospective employee is trying on that employer to see if it's a good fit.
 
Leighann Lovely  35:57
And that's awesome. I've connected some companies with with them, myself, and because they were interested in learning more about that, that, you know, program, I will put their information in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in reaching out directly to them, I will make sure that their their informations in the show notes, because they are they're truly it's an amazing program that that is run. So yeah, it's just great. It's an awesome program, that, that individuals have to be able to try out new things and see if it's the right opportunity for them and an amazing opportunity for an employer to, you know, see if they can find qualified individuals who are would would be great at their company. So yeah, Chelsea, thanks for for bringing that up. Because, yeah, it's just, it's, it's an amazing program, both for both parties. So and you brought up you brought up your, your son, so I want to know, how are your How are your children doing?
 
Denise Schamens  37:05
Um, well, honestly, I, you know, I can add to the job experiences, my son Sam, has had, I think a total of four different work experiences. One was in the food industry, and the two other ones were in manufacturing, so some office work and some line work. And honestly, he like, did great and, and had offers in two of them, two of the four. And so he just recently accepted the fourth offer. And so now he's employed, doing data entry for an environmental engineering company. And he loves it. And I found out that he's been telling people at school, the school that he goes to a vocational school, that he's been sharing that he's really enjoying being there. And you know, what was unique about his work experiences? The the first manufacturing one that he did you know, you he had to go through all the safety protocol, he had to take the safety tests, you know, make sure you don't get run over by a forklift. And, you know, where are you standing and have your steel toed shoes and all that kind of stuff. And he did all that passed with flying colors. And the only issue that they had, they loved him. But they didn't extend an offer because he couldn't work an eight hour shift. So that brought up some some interesting perspectives. When I put my good friend head on, because then I think about maybe, you know, maybe they can't work a full shift right away, maybe we have to do a job share kind of situation, and work them up to that, because honestly, he's never done anything for eight hours straight. You know, so that's something that has to be learned. And it takes some time. So I'm happy to say that now he's working four days a week for three hours. And then we're going to slowly start advancing him and giving him more time. So yeah, that's where he's at. I'm pretty proud of them.
 
Leighann Lovely  39:09
That's amazing. That's awesome. That's so great. Chelsea, what about you?
 
Chelsea Budde  39:16
So I have two human beings on the spectrum. My 23 year old has been working at that same place where he started his work experience when he was in high school. And he's really built quite a community there. It was interesting because he, he works in a Furniture Warehouse. And we recently had some furniture delivered by this company. And my husband was chatting with the guys who were setting up the bedroom set and, you know, he said, Yeah, actually, my son works for Steinhafel. Oh really? What's his name? And I got to chatting. Oh, does that guy wear suspenders? Yes, yes. I like that guy. He's quiet but he's a hard worker. I like that guy. So you know, he's really created a community there and his actual I thought his career aspirations were going to be in what he was really good at, which was graphic design. And so he got a Technical Certificate in desktop publishing and digital production. And so I kind of thought he was going to end up doing, you know, perhaps some sort of marketing, printing, you know, T shirts or water bottles or something like that. And, you know, doing that kind of arts and setting up those kinds of machines. And he really looks at his creative time is just his free time, like, this is just a hobby, this is not something that he wants to make a career out of this point. He's very happy working his nine and a half hours a week in the Furniture Warehouse, he likes that he doesn't have to get up early in the morning. He doesn't want to work more than two and a half hours at a time. So I think a lot of us would be like, sounds like a good life. But I You know what, this is where he's at right now. So we'll work up to some other stuff at some point. My youngest is 20 years old. And Noey, identifies as non binary from a gender standpoint. So I'm going to use Noey's preferred pronouns, are they them in there? Noey's a junior right now studying music and animation. So went to an arts college in Chicago. And, you know, at first we were concerned, like, could Noey, we do a full time four year program and advocate for themselves? And, you know, live on campus in the South Loop of Chicago? Like, how is all that going to work out? And, of course, that was we were thinking about those questions before the pandemic started. And then, you know, two thirds into their freshman year, all heck broke loose. But you know, now he's figuring it out. And I think this is such an interesting time, this transition time of life is trying to, you know, figure out can you work while you're a full time student? And what can you do? Can you work 60 hours a week over the summer, like some of your peers do? Are you going to burn out? Are you willing to work a $10 an hour job? Or are you looking for something more? And what is that going to mean for your motivation for your education? So yeah, Noey at a point where they're, you know, looking at a little more than two and a half semesters left of school and trying to figure out what comes after that. Internships? Noey loves the city. So living in Chicago? I don't know. So far, so good.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:27
So Noey, is on their own in Yeah, Chicago. Wow, that is awesome.
 
Chelsea Budde  42:34
Yeah, that living in a studio apartment, because what nobody has realized about themselves is they cannot have roommates. So Noey has always been a kind of human that needs to cocoon to recover, mostly from kind of the sensory input and the social emotional toll that interacting with other humans takes during the day. Plus know he has ADHD too. So the executive function part is really hard. So when mom rolls up on noise apartment and sees the what mom describes as disaster, right? I just want to clean it up and get everything back to a space where it looks like they could function. But you know,
 
Leighann Lovely  43:16
That's a typical college student, though.
 
Denise Schamens  43:19
My husband's apartment was horrendous when I met
 
Chelsea Budde  43:21
Yes. Yeah. Really gross. So but but yes, Noey is, is doing it all on their own going to classes on their own submitting their own work. And you know, I couldn't help knowing with anything if I tried. I don't know anything about music or animation. And, you know, the other interesting thing about Noey Is there a synesthesia, which means that they combine senses. And so they sort of understood that a little bit in high school the first time, I realized that that was what was going on with them was they're like, oh, my gosh, you're listening to radio on the way to school. And you're like, mom isn't a song so yellow? And I'm like, I? What do you mean? Isn't this song yellow? Like, it's not called yellow? It's not by a group that has yellow in it. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about mom, the song? Can't you see all the yellow? No, sweetheart. It's a song. But you know, no, he just assumed that everyone could combine senses like that, that they could see music and color, that they could smell words. I mean, I I have no idea. So numbers have personalities. I have no idea what to tell you. But these are all things that go on in his brain. And now think about that, right? Think about your noise professor. Right. And you're trying to teach a zoom class on music, and you're supposed to pay attention to a certain bar of music, and the lyrical overlay. And no, we just had to kind of tap out from a class and be like, Look, I smell what you're doing. I see what you're doing. I taste what's going on. I can't do it. I need a break. And you know, so just turn the camera off muted. Walked away for five minutes paste in their little studio apartment. Breathe. Grab it. cube to reset their brain. They hold the ice cube when they're feeling anxious. And then came back, turn the camera back on. Okay, cool. It's cool. This was too much.
 
Leighann Lovely  45:10
That is. Oh my gosh, that would be massive overload for my brain. i Wow.
 
Denise Schamens  45:22
Right? Yeah, it's much. And honestly, I can relate a lot of what Chelsea said about no way because I as a creative, I'm kind of borderline on some of that stuff. Like I can see the numbers as personalities I can I can relate to songs having a color or a feel, you know, obviously, you guys would be like more like a feeling. But you associate emotion with different colors like I can I can relate and be empathetic to some of what she's going through. They're going through. So it's like, it's hard to but I love that, that they're able to talk about that. Right? And because how else do we find the stuff out and until they start feeling safe to talk about it? It's good stuff.
 
Leighann Lovely  46:09
I didn't even know that that was a thing. But now that you say I suppose now that you say that my husband is my loves music and you know, I when he listens to music, you can see his entire body. Like changes. You can see like him completely relaxed. And I said you hear music different than me. Like you're you entirely like, it consumes him in a way that I could never truly understand. It's just it's truly his passion. And he hears things in it. He'll he'll say, oh, did you? Did you hear that? And I'm like, No, I know, you know, like, no, it's just not my. But I suppose there are certain things you know, my brothers always will ask me, we'll be sitting in the woods, or not in the woods, but like around a campfire, my will hear something in the woods. My brother's like, Oh, what is that noise? And I'm like, Oh, it's a chipmunk. And they're like, and then I looked at him one day, and I said, Why do you always ask me the most obscured questions. And they're like, because you are an encyclopedia of useless information. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess I am. I, that's the way my brain I see something. And I, it's in my, it's in my vault, like I'll never forget, I hear something. And I associate it with the noise of the that the animal makes. And it's, it's forever in my brain. My senses smell is through the rough, saying I can I can smell if an animal is downwind from me. And I can tell you which direction it is. And I can tell you which animal it is. It's it's sometimes it's gross, the things that I can smell. So but I've never heard of mixing or seeing colors, from, you know, from music or mixing those senses that is, in one way. Extremely awesome. And another way. It's got just exhausting. Because yeah, I mean, when you're using all of those senses at the same time, emotionally, just wearing an exhausting, I understand why they would want to be able to cocoon and kind of step away from the world to regenerate.
 
Denise Schamens  48:28
Yeah. And then of course, like, the marketing mom and me is like, oh my gosh, you have to put this on a resume, like How amazing would it be if you get hired to do a jingle for a company? And you're like, oh, my gosh, yeah, your company name is totally blue. And here's what Blue sounds like. And then they could you know, because they're a composer, they can compose what it sounds like. Now, I mean, synesthesia isn't the same for everyone, right? So Denise could hear a piece of music and say not that's totally pink and noise we like now it's yellow. So it's not to say that synesthetes have the same experience. But I just think, from a generation and a creativity standpoint, how much easier it's going to be for mnoey. To come up with something than for someone who's just sitting back with their neurotypical boring average brain trying to come up with some idea that's fresh and new. Right.
 
Denise Schamens  49:18
I think it's still I definitely think that's a skill that yeah, can be capitalized on in her career somehow, for sure,
 
Leighann Lovely  49:26
Absolutely, we all we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. And just because somebody may think that doesn't mean that it's a disability or that you know, being neurodivergent is it's not it's, you can use that utilize that to, to a strength. Now, you may have weaknesses, because of that same thing, but again, you know, I have bipolar disorder, that there are certain things that with bipolar disorder, I've realized that I have strengths because of there are things that you know, and fun, not fun fact fun. I get some most people who are who have bipolar disorder. Part of the reason they go off their medication is because they're wildly creative. A lot of people who I've talked to, I'm really creative, I can paint amazing. I can write, really, really well. But as soon as I go on my medication it dumbs me down. I can't do it anymore. I can't write a campaign. You see this in a lot of different things out there. Something that was you were born with some way that your brain works, often comes with something good. You know, I have to assume that there is a gift somewhere amongst everything else. It's just simply the way that you look at it. Okay, question of the season, because we are coming to time, I'm going to ask both of you to answer this. So I've asked everybody, this, come on this, you know, this this year, this season? If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why? Chelsea? Why don't you go first?
 
Denise Schamens  51:08
Yeah, well, I'm really just gonna say the same thing that we said at the opening, you know, Denise, coming to me and saying, Do you think it's a good idea to make a movie about autism? For kids without autism? That was it? You know, I, I was at a point where I could have gone back to doing PR writing, I love to write, I really do I enjoy it. And I could have done that for the company that I worked for, before I started my family, certainly, or I could have done it freelance for a number of different PR companies. And it's just it, having two kids with autism made me realize that this was a calling. And I just couldn't figure out where it was coming from or what it was going to look like. So, you know, Denise, approaching me in 2007, with the idea that eventually became good friend was definitely
 
Leighann Lovely  51:57
Awesome, what about you, Denise?
 
Denise Schamens  51:59
Well, to not sound redundant, because probably mine but I, I think I it has to go back to the when my son was diagnosed at three. That's 20 years ago, I there was no one that had autism that I knew of, in my family, my husband's family, I had no experience with that. My path was art and fine art and exploring that and then was able to stay home with my kids. So I was gonna get right back into the creative side once they were full time in school. And when my son was diagnosed at three, that was a huge pivotal point for me, because I was like, What is this? What does this mean? Now I've got to figure all of this out. And I have two other kids that need to understand it as well. So for me, it was the diagnosis that three,
 
Leighann Lovely  52:56
sometimes life brings people together for a reason. And clearly, it brought the two of you together so that you could create good friend ink and spread your amazing educational program and amazing goodwill to the rest of the world. So that you know and what, 56 - 54,000 students if you 56,000 Okay,
 
Chelsea Budde  53:22
56,000 people, yep. People
 
Leighann Lovely  53:26
Have now seen your training or been touched by by you one way or another. That is absolutely amazing. So, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. You know, I mentioned this actually in the opener that, you know, I thought of you guys because Alejandra Fraga had mentioned you when I had interviewed her. And I just thought, well, she's talking you up and now I have to make sure that I get you guys to come and talk with me and I just think your mission is is an amazing. Yeah, it's it's amazing. So
 
Chelsea Budde  54:08
Thank you so much. Thanks, man.
 
Leighann Lovely  54:10
You. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
Website - goodfriendinc.com
Denise Schamens
E-mail - denise@goodfriendinc.com
LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/deniseschamens
Chelsea Budde
E-mail - chelsea@goodfriendinc.com 
LInkedIn - linkedin.com/in/chelseabudde
Referenced in the Episode - 
Wisconsin Independent Learning College - https://wisconsinilc.org
 
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

Episode 13 - Finding Help, Where to go - Ashley Podzius

People need help at all different times, for all different reasons, sometimes knowing who to turn to is all that is needed. People like Ashley, today's guest, is an amazing person and resource for others. Join me!  
Leighann Lovely  00:15
Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.
 
Leighann Lovely  01:04
I'm extremely excited to have our conversation have my guest on today because I have the honor and privilege of speaking with somebody who has taken instead of an HR path of the normal guests that I speak with instead of being in that corporate world and talking about HR, HR professionals or business owners or coaches. I'm going to be speaking with somebody who's really truly in the thick of it and has the opportunity to help individuals seek assistance if and when that assistance is needed. So I'm going to be talking with Ashley Podzius. This is a Chicago native who made the move to Milwaukee in 2020. She began her education at Marquette University, where she studied broadcasting. She completed her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology with a minor in Fine Arts at Governors State University in University Park, Illinois. Ashley is the outreach representative at Rogers behavior health in Sheboygan. She is also an eating disorder recovery yoga instructor at allI wellness studio in Milwaukee. In her spare time, Ashley enjoys spending time outdoors playing with her three cats and traveling and doing anything that helps her creativity evolve. Ashley, I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining me
 
Ashley Podzius  02:34
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
 
Leighann Lovely  02:38
So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and your role at Rogers Behavioral Health in Sheboygan.
 
Ashley Podzius  02:44
Yeah, so I will start with my role since that's the easiest to share. Since I've shared it so many times with others. I am the Outreach Representative at Rogers in Sheboygan. So Rogers has been around for over 100 years. We started off in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin is a really small facility and since then expanded actually nationally. So we still remain as the largest nonprofit behavioral health organization in the nation, which is very exciting to share with people. But I represent the Sheboygan clinics. So I am the Outreach representative. So that means I connect with potential referrence who have folks that are looking for a higher level of care. So that can be therapists, psychiatrist, school professionals, probation and parole officers, really anyone who knows someone because everyone knows someone struggling with mental health. And if we're full, or if we have a program that a patient isn't looking for, I help support them and getting help elsewhere.
 
Leighann Lovely  03:52
Okay, so I have to say, Rogers is an amazing facility. I know my audience is aware that I have struggled with mental health. And I myself am a Rogers Memorial alumni. So they are an amazing, absolute amazing facility. And so it's it's so wonderful to talk to somebody who is is you know, working there and supporting them and to have somebody in the community who you can reach out to if and when you you need those services is just it's amazing because you during this time well during really any time but right now, you know, during a time when the world has been turned upside down, knocked on its head, more people are talking about it and more people are finally reaching out for the help that they need, or know somebody who should be reaching out. It's it's great to have somebody like you who they can call and and get direction and get information on on what they're supposed to do. So thank you for what you do. That's awesome.
 
Ashley Podzius  04:58
Yes, it's really fun. It's really not even Just refer. And sometimes we have families calling the clinic looking for just general guidance or resources. And maybe it's an age group that we don't get served. So really younger adolescents or children that we don't serve. So I even talked to families all the time, and they just need someone to listen to you. And I think that's one of my favorite parts of the job is just kind of holding space for people who are in a lot of pain.
 
Leighann Lovely  05:24
And that has to be wearing sometimes. So for you, I mean, emotionally for you, you, you're, you're dealing with a lot of people who are in pain. And how do you deal with that? I mean, is there do you have somebody to talk to?
 
Ashley Podzius  05:42
I do. So our team is very close. And my supervisor is just so amazing. And really all of the leadership on in the marketing and outreach team within Rogers is just always there to be an ear or an eye for for anyone, not even just folks on the team, but just really anyone within the system that needs somebody to chat with. Um, and I have my own self care practices that I do. And I've also I've been an outreach for quite some time now. So I think I think at the beginning, it was difficult hearing all these stories, and like, I have really good personal boundaries, like with friends and family. But I think with work since I do love my job so much, and it is very flexible. I have not so good of work boundaries. So it's, it's it's hard to kind of unplug at the end of the day. But I do I you know, I walk a lot. I mean, that sounds silly, because I live in Milwaukee. And it's like, it's 20 degrees. I would actually right now my computer says it's 18 degrees. But so after, so that's really not that bad after the heatwave that we had yesterday in the 40, 18 feels really cold. But yeah, I tried to get outside as much as I can. Walking yoga, or any kind of movement that's really healing. And I and I love to read and play video games, and I have cats. So I have a lot of I have a lot of support.
 
Leighann Lovely  07:10
That's awesome. And you're walking is probably one of the most therapeutic things. That's, that's awesome. And you mentioned Yoga, you are a yoga instructor, So tell me about this.
 
Ashley Podzius  07:22
Yeah, so I was really lucky. So I started practicing yoga in 2012. And then in 2014, I was in between jobs. So I had a really great opportunity to go to this residential yoga teacher training for a month. And Napa Valley poor me, right? Eating away in California. But that was really great. So I went there. I'm not expecting to ever teach yoga, I just wanted to learn more about myself, and really the history of the practice. And so when I got home, I'm the teacher that I had first practice with, I'm in Chicago, that's where I'm originally from. She was like, Well, I have some teaching opportunities for you. And I was like, I don't really know if I want to do that quite yet. But then I did start and I was teaching probably public classes for about three to four years. And I was like, I am just tired of teaching to a group of people that just want to learn a handstand to post on their Instagram. You know, because I feel like that Well, I feel like it's kind of simmering down right now on Instagram in terms of yoga poses and stuff, people are actually learning the meaning behind yoga and learning the the mental health benefits that come with it. And then I I'm in recovery from an eating disorder. So I had, you know, a therapist in Naperville, which is in the western suburbs of Chicago. The there was a practice down the street that had reached out to me, either on Facebook or LinkedIn, I can't remember, I'm looking for a yoga instructor for mental health. And then I typed in their address. And this practices building was just a few doors down from the therapist that I had been seeing for years. I hadn't seen her anymore at the time. But I was like, Wow, they're so close. And this facility, the place where I saw my therapist gave me so much. So I wonder if they might be looking for someone. So I called my old therapist, and I was like, Hey, this is kind of out of the blue. But this practice down the block wanted me to do yoga at their facility. I was wondering if you know, Maria, who's the owner of the practice, if she might be interested, you know, and doing kind of any yoga for eating disorders. And so she had talked to Maria and I got a call the next day I met with her and she really believed in my mission because I'm not a therapist, by trade. I have, you know, experience with recovery. And I have a yoga background and my, you know, bachelor's is in Psych. So I just, you know, I was like I don't really know if this is gonna work out. I was so nervous to meet her and she was like, yes, absolutely. We would love to have you. So I really enjoyed that one on one connection with People while doing yoga with them, and guiding them through the practice and the philosophy of the practice and all that it gave me, I just kind of wanted to share that with others.
 
Leighann Lovely  10:10
That's an amazing story, not only through the fact that you have a personal understanding of what others are experiencing, but now that you can take something that you love in yoga, and pass that along, you know, to them on a personal level to help them, you know, heal outside of just, you know, their therapy, and they're, you know, they're, they're counseling, I guess, rather. But that's, that is that's an amazing thing that that you can offer beyond, you know, being, you know, an outreach for Rogers. I mean, that's, that's awesome.
 
Ashley Podzius  10:55
Yeah, and I don't do so right now, the yoga that I do is through so I live in Milwaukee. I mean, it's, I know Sheboygan is an hour north. But so many people are still remote. So I'm up in Sheboygan a few times a week. And I'm here working from home a lot of the time. So the studio that I work out of is less, or I think it's technically 1.1 miles away, so not far at all. It's called L Wellness studio. So I do their yoga for eating disorders just once a week. So it's the perfect balance. So I have one really long day. Um, but it's good to have that on a Monday because I think Mondays are so hard to get into, but I so look forward to not just you know, my Rogers job, but also the yoga at the end. So I really look forward to Mondays. They're honestly one of my favorite days of the week aside from Sunday, which is also a weird day to love, but I love it.
 
Leighann Lovely  11:43
You're actually, you're very much like me, I love Mondays. Well, probably because I have a four year old who drives me absolutely crazy. Despite the fact that I love her fiercely and follows me everywhere I go. I can't wait to have a little bit of of self free time on my Monday. I'm sure there's other parents out there going. Yep, no, I got it. I got it. But by the time the day is over, I'm thrilled to go home to her. But I love my Mondays. I also love my job. I love my day job. You know, vaco I love my night job as podcast hosts and getting the privilege and honor of talking to people like you. So and you know, I love Sundays actually, no Saturdays, I like Saturdays. So Saturdays and Mondays, but If only more people in the world could love Mondays, wouldn't it be much happier place in the world? Because that would mean that more people would love their jobs. Right?
 
Ashley Podzius  12:46
Right. And I always hear of people who I just got the chills saying this. I always hear people saying they have the Sunday scaries. And I am so grateful to say I've never I've never experienced a Sunday scary ever.
 
Leighann Lovely  12:59
Nope, my I don't I don't even know what that is.
 
Ashley Podzius  13:02
I think it's just dreading the work week. But I've always so when I first got out of college, I was in direct care for behavioral health. So I worked at a residential center as a direct care counselor working 3pm to 11:30pm. And in the mornings, I worked at this breakfast restaurant, right downtown Chicago, which I loved both very much. I mean, I loved serving so much because I was with all of my friends, I got to socialize the whole time, there was no emotional attachment to anyone's story, it was kind of almost like a break that I was getting paid to do. You know, and like networking with different people. And just hearing all the people that travel to Chicago from other parts of the country and other parts of the world. It was it was so much fun.
 
Leighann Lovely  13:47
I truly enjoy. You know, my husband says you work too much to me all the time you spend so much time working but and I don't wear it as a badge of honor. I sometimes do work too much. But on the on the other side of that I truly truly enjoy. I love what I do. I love the aspect of networking. i i You know, when I go out network, it's not like I'm actually working. It's more like I'm out socializing with a huge group of people that I love to hang out with, and sit there and talk and chitchat. And you know, so no, if you love what you do, and you you clearly, you know, love what you do, and that's awesome. So, now you have your bachelor's. You mentioned this you have your bachelor's degree in psychology. Were you were you always interested in that area? Or was that something that one day you said you know, this, this is the area that I want to go into and was there something a personal drive to that I you know, and I asked because my brother, my brother actually went to school, you know, for for something well for that. And he one day said to me, you know that he had a home Education in that from from me. And I was like, well, I should feel proud that I drove him to the I don't know how to feel about that. So yeah, going back to my question, you know, was that always an interest of study for you
 
Ashley Podzius  15:17
I always like this study of people and that my first job in high school was I was a hostess at a restaurant. So I guess restaurants just have a special place in my heart. But my first two years of college, I actually went to Marquette, which I think is why I love Milwaukee so much. And I came back to Milwaukee. But I went to Marquette for broadcasting. So a total switch. And then it was at Marquette that I developed my eating disorder had to go home, once a community college for a little bit, and then I think what a lot of people get out of treatment right away, it's like, I want to save the world, I want to share my story. And I want to be, I want to, I want people to think that they can be better because of my sharing. And I think that I feel like right now it's almost like a, I mean, I'm so glad that people are sharing their stories, but it's almost like I feel like social media kind of pushes people to over share their stories when no one needs to share more than they want to. So when I first got into psych, you know, just studying it in school, I loved it. But then when I got out, and I got my first job, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, this isn't for me. And you hear a lot of those stories to a lot of people too, as well as in substance abuse recovery. They're, you know, recovered or sober, clean and sober for a few months, and they go right away into recovery coaching, and then they end up relapsing because they're not ready to hold that space for others, because that space hasn't been held for them for so long. So I learned that very quickly. And so I was like, I don't want to be a therapist, but I do love, you know, working with this population, but what can I do? That's, you know, kind of a step away. And that's when I found the yoga and then I was still waitressing while I was teaching yoga and doing the yoga therapy, if you will. And then I just kind of fell into the outreach marketing side of behavioral health. And I do miss Miss engaging with patients a lot. But I feel like this is the perfect place for me because I still get human connection, like, all of the days that I work. But it's not the same, you know, it's different. So if I have a tough day, I'm just I'm meeting with people, you know, as people and people that I'm not working with, through Rogers. But it's not like I'm hearing their full story. And it's not like their story that I'm hearing. It's the stories of their patients. So there's a there's more of a disconnect there. But not not a bad disconnect, but a healthy one. Does that make sense?
 
Leighann Lovely  17:50
Yes. And I was gonna follow up question to that is do you think that there is an inherent risk for somebody who is, you know, possibly in recovery, to immediately go into trying to help other people or? And I'm not saying, you know, I guess for me, it's bipolar. telling my story is one thing. I don't have a wagon to fall off of. I mean, I suppose I could stop taking my medication I could, that comes in different forms shapes. If it's somebody who's maybe recovering from drugs or alcohol or from an eating disorder, do you think that there is a possibility of a risk on talking to somebody who has that same addiction or that same? Whatever it might be? And through talking with them about theirs, that they have a possibility of? backsliding?
 
Ashley Podzius  18:50
I don't know. So I'm not an expert in how other people recover. And I think everyone recovers a little bit differently. Of course, I think there's a risk on both sides. I mean, that's just my personal opinion. But it's just an opinion. But, um, long story short, yeah, I definitely do think that there is a backsliding possibility because I actually have a few friends. So I have a very small circle of people that I talk to, I always say, I have no friends, I have friends. And there's just I don't have a lot of close friends. And I feel like at the beginning, I would share and share you know about my recovery, like when I was like, kind of fresh out of treatment A few months later, and I was like, Yes, I you know, I think if I don't share that no one's going to feel empowered to get support. And then after sharing, I feel like people were coming to me and it's like, that wasn't my intent. It was like I was sharing so that you all could, you know, do what you need to do not come to me and I think to this day, I have people that that I'm friends with, but not like my close, close friends that share a lot with me and it gets really heavy and I have to really set up boundary there and like I said before, I have really good personal boundaries. And I've learned that over time and poor work boundaries, which I'm fine with, I mean that that does not stress me out but with with other people or people that I'm close to, they'll share all of this with me. And it's like, I right now there's, there's a lot of things happening in my own life to that I also need to like with my family and close people to me, that I don't have the capacity to hold space for people. So I think I'm a big advocate for you know, if you need to kind of let something out like asking someone Hey, can I vent to you first? Or on the other side to when you know, people need safe people to share with and I want to say it was you that posted this on your LinkedIn about giving advice. Only one asked was that you? Yeah, actually, I just that is my my biggest pet peeve. And my best friend will tell you that she's also a nationally that I cannot stand when if I'm trying to share something with somebody like confidentially, you're just kind of letting things out. And someone says, Well, if I were you, I would do this. Well, first of all, you're not me. I'm not you. Everyone has different stories. Some people speak to be heard. And if and a lot, and I ask for support and advice all the time. But if I don't ask, I don't, it hurts me more to compare to compare stories, you know what I mean? Like, they just say, Well, I would do this? Well, we're different. So I wouldn't do that. You know, I think I've just kind of went on a tangent. So I'm sorry,
 
Leighann Lovely  21:37
No, I love tangents. I go on them too. And, and you are so right. Sometimes people just need exactly what you said to speak, speak to be heard, not to be to be told how the other person feels about what they're saying. They just simply need to say it because sometimes that makes somebody feel better. Sometimes I will sit down. And if I'm so angry at something, and I will write a letter to the person I'm angry at, and then I will rip that letter up, throw it away. And I'm over it. Some I mean, it's just sometimes you just need to get the words out whether that's verbally or on a piece of paper. And the worst thing that you can possibly do to somebody is when they're in that mode, and they're venting is to then turn around and start giving them advice, because then it feels like you're not validating them for how they feel. You're taking away. You're taking that away from them. And I'm guilty of this too. Oh my god, go ask my husband. They'll be like, Oh, she never shuts up. Every time I talk. She's, we're all guilty of that occasionally. So sometimes we do need to lay that down those boundaries of saying, Look, I just need to vent. And my dad will my dad will is famous for asking this. Are you venting? Or are you asking me for advice? I love that. And I'll go I'm venting. Please don't give me advice on this. Because I don't want to be slapped in the face with the reality of what I already know. I just really need to get this out. And that's it's extremely therapeutic. But you're also right in saying that you need to set those personal boundaries. Because we all have personal lives, we all have things going on. And sometimes you can't take on everything that's happening in everybody else's life. You don't have enough emotional space, you don't have enough. And I have one friend of mine that does it all the time. She'll call me and she goes, Oh, I have to do this. And I have to do this. And this is going on with this person in this and I finally said to her, you need to stop. You need to stop holding the weight of everybody else on your shoulders and start just taking care of you. When was the last time you just took care of you? I guess I haven't really thought about it. I'm like, You're You're crumbling under the weight of the world. And the only person who is responsible for that is you. You can't blame anybody else. You have to learn to say no. And there might be some hurt feelings. There might be but sometimes it has to happen for your own health. Whether that be your mental health whether that be, sorry, now I'm on a tangent.
 
Ashley Podzius  24:36
Okay, I love tangents. Right. That's one of the perks of ADHD. Right? I could just ramble on and on and on. I'm like wait, what?
 
Leighann Lovely  24:47
What shiny object shiny objects. Squirrel Yeah. Okay, moving on. Moving on. So you know I got out what is the hardest? I mean, what would you say is the hardest thing that you have to do in in your job every day because, well, I couldn't do your job. I really I just there, I don't have the capacity, I wouldn't have the capacity to to do your job because when I compare your job to mine, mine is all sunshine and rainbows. Now I love to talk to people about hope and how we're going to change the world and make it a better place you were talking about let's all tell our stories and try to influence the world which, you know, I love I love that stuff. But the reality of it is that, that's, that's what we all think life is about of go get help come out. And now it's gonna be all sunshine and rainbows, but it's not.
 
Ashley Podzius  25:55
No, it's not, it's sunshine, storms, snow, rainbows, unicorns, baths. It's everything. So I think the hardest part for me about my job is the time management because well, Rodgers is a non for profit. So the outreach I've done before, we're all for for profit organization. So it was all about filling back. So my mission was just to connect with people to fill the open slots. And each facility that I worked in. Were with Rogers, there's so many other things that we do. So yes, I think the main part of it is connecting people to treatment with Rogers connecting with the referrence the families, and then providing discharge planning, but there's a lot of data entry, there's a lot of follow up. And there's it's just there's a lot of computer things. So I think it's just it's the time management piece to and not forgetting things. And I'm old fashioned in that will my calendar is on Outlook. I used to hate Outlook. So I'm like, why don't people just use Gmail, like, it's 2022. But it's such a outlook and teams lifesaver. But, um, I have to write things down. Like it's a specific to do list outside of my, like normal calendar items. So time management, and I think too, when people know that I work for a facility like this, they are there. People that I haven't talked to in years are calling me like, I have this going on, and I just need to someone to talk to and I'm like, Okay, thank you for sharing three paragraphs, but I'm not that person for you. I can give you resources, but I think it's again, holding that, that boundary and a stiff line, like this is my job. I'm so much more than than that, you know, this is what I do for work. And I you know, I do a lot of other things I think I had mentioned before to like I have a minor in fine art. So I you know, I'm a creator, too. So I'm not just I'm not just Ashley from Rogers. I'm Ashley, who's also an artist who's also a person who's also a lover of, of life and not the outdoors and animals. Like I have so many other things that are a part of me that I feel like people fail to see.
 
Leighann Lovely  27:55
You know what I? You said that in my head flashed to you know, you walk into a room and you introduce somebody to Oh, Dr. Hurts surgeon and they're like, oh, Doctor, I've got this pain in my chest. That is so typical of, you know, you you meet somebody and you're like, Oh, you do that? Oh, yeah. Can I talk to you? And you're so right. So often people see the, and then this just came into my head. Here's the ADHD thing. You know, you see a financial accountant and you got run the other way. Oh, yeah. Sorry. And I don't have anything against financial accounts. Not at all. It's just, you know, do I want to talk about all my finances and no, that's the horrible, but I have an awesome financial account team that I work with. Anyways. But yeah, that that is you hear oh, you work for and then you know, somebody who has struggling with anxiety, you're and then you're right. They're gonna go, oh, maybe you can help me with this. And they're going to forget everything else that you are. So yeah, I can imagine that. That is that's frustrating that the conversation is probably replayed. Every time you meet somebody new when they find out what you do.
 
Ashley Podzius  29:18
Isn't another thing too is one of the first thing when you meet someone new. The first question is, so what do you do? And I used to always, you know, share my job because I just assumed that that's what they were wondering which is most likely what they are. So now, I always have a follow up question. I'm like, so what do you mean, what do I do? What do I do for work? Or what do I do like as a person? And I always say that people don't really like that question because they don't really care. They just want to know what you do. And essentially, like, what what your status quo is on the corporate ladder. I remember I was on this boat cruise with my sister in Chicago for her company. And at the time I was serving, and I was I think I had just graduated. And one of her colleagues was like, why don't you just get like a real job? And I swear, and I have the worst, I'm very sweet. But I when I get mad, I get really mad, and my face just totally changes. And I and I said like, well, what so would you just never want to go out to eat ever again. So serving not a real job as you know, a cashier, not a real job, like what is real, everything. Every job is so important. And so many people, I think, talk like that, and it grinds my gears.
 
Leighann Lovely  30:31
Right? I Oh, my God, I had the same conversation. Actually, what I think it was episode 1 when I was talking to rob Conlon. And we were talking about, I can't remember the content Anyways, my girlfriend had said to me, one day when we were in the car, we were talking and she goes, I can't remember the con, like the whole conversation, but she says, Well, Leanne, I'm just a server. And I said, What Wait, what do you mean, you're just a server, like nobody is any like, is just anything anymore? Like, or was ever, but nobody. I mean, nobody should ever be referred to as just anything. Like, because we, and with the whole pandemic, and everything that happened. We every single job out there. And if you haven't realized that by now you're living under a rock, every single job that exists, is just as essential as the next job in order to make the world completely work properly. We need everybody. Right now we're struggling as an economy because we don't have people. We don't have enough people at a gas station, that gas station has to close their doors on a certain day, or they don't have as they have limited hours. All of a sudden, you can't go to your favorite restaurant because they have to shut down on Mondays and Tuesdays because they can only run limited hours because they don't have enough servers. And people are like, Oh, I can't believe they're closed. They don't have enough people to run it yet. Those are the people that you were referring to is just a server. Right? Make sure that you're tipping them really well, because they're busting their asses right now to get you with your food because they're down to people, or three people that they normally have to run their shifts. I mean, grocery stores for a long time, they their their shelves were bare, because there wasn't enough people working production, there wasn't enough people creating the food that was going to go there or drivers to drive that product there. I mean, not to mention the supply chain issues yet we're having I mean, that has a whole nother nobody is just anything.
 
Ashley Podzius  32:59
Right? And it's not no one is just their job. People are so much more than that. And I feel like that's another conversation that needs to be which is why I love this podcast. Remember when we met at the Veterans conference, you told me about it. And you shared a little bit about your story to me. And I was like, this is so important. Like people need to know that there's so much more like people aren't just an employee number. And employee ID people are people first. First and foremost, they are people and people have feelings and people are things that come up and that happen. And they have to be treated as such.
 
Leighann Lovely  33:34
Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, people, I've talked to other people, they're like, why is it called H, you know, let's talk HR. And I'm like, well, people forget that. When HR started, it was human resource. It's a resource for humans. But we literally in the name, it's, but we've so soaked for so long. We've forgotten what that was originally supposed to be about. And now HR has become the, and I say this kind of jokingly, but kind of seriously, they've kind of become the enemy. Because now HR is about protecting the company. It's about getting, you know, a lot of other stuff done, it's and now they have the people leaders at companies, and those are the people who, you know, really connect with the employees and things like that. But human resources was about the humans at the company. And so yeah, let's talk HR. But let's humanize that conversation because we are humans and humans. And I've said this before are messy. Our lives are messy. And if there are ways for people to know where to go for help, if their lives become messy, then I want them to To know where to go and get help, and I want those companies to know who they should refer those employees to that, you know, and those companies need to know that they can't just wash or wipe those employees away, because they're people. And I think it's important that we're having conversations around the culture at companies, because they also need to understand that they're not going to keep those employees if they're not treating them like humans. And so, you know, why not start out by one sharing my story? letting everybody know that, hey, I'm human. So, come have this conversation with me. Talk about what makes you human. Talk about what drives you to do what you do. And what better person to have on is somebody who understands it, because, well, you know, you work at a facility who's specifically designed to help people, and better that you're a not for profit, which means that you're not reaching out to people to say, hey, I need to fill this bed to make this company money. You're doing it to truly help people.
 
Ashley Podzius  36:14
Yeah. And then yeah, we're all are totally all donor funded. And we had a big outreach summit yesterday, too. And my boss's boss, who also kind of she just got promoted to the VP of admissions in business development. And I had worked with her before at a for profit. And, um, you know, Rogers is growing, because we have a lot of people who want to donate to help open these new locations, and, you know, communities that have a need. And we put a pause on that during the pandemic. And she's like, Wait, you're really pausing. Like, I don't know, why would anyone pause, I'm not used to this, what's going on? They're like, well, people need our help. And we can't grow if people are struggling. And you know, they need us here now. And she's like, Oh, so this is what it's like to work at a nonprofit that actually cares about their employees and the people that they serve. It was it was a really warming, eye opening discussion.
 
Leighann Lovely  37:12
That's awesome. Yeah, no, and it's interesting. I, I worked, I moved to a company Vaco. And I normally don't talk about, you know, specifically the company I work out because this is very separate. I on, I think it was around the holidays, my company sent out an email, to welcome or to wish everybody a happy holiday. Just tell everybody that you know, go shut down. Don't spend a bunch of time working over the holiday season. And then went on to further say, during the time, during the holidays, we know that many can struggle from a variety of different things, if anybody needs any resources, including who to turn to for mental health, and it went down a list. And then they had a huge, like, all these resources of like, I like almost fell off my chair. Now I shouldn't have. Because that should be something that companies just offer as a resource. Like if you need help, here are resources for you. And I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there that now are good about, you know, offering resources. But they want to step farther to remind everybody at the company that yes, the holidays can be hard for some people that remember, we want you to go be with your family shutdown, close your laptop, don't answer your phone. And if you know of anybody, or if you are struggling, here are the links to the resources that this company that you work at offers. And I was stunned. And I'm just like, wow, this is, this is an amazing thing to do to for your employees to make sure that they're taken care of. And every company should be doing that. Even if it's not a paid for service, even if it's, you know, a hey, you know, just to make sure everybody's okay, if you need help. Here's a not for profit organization that could assist you. Here's their website and a phone number that you can call just to remind you that we care about you and you don't at organizations don't have to pay for resources to be available for their employees. It just it makes a difference to know that a company that you work for cares about you. Okay, we're coming to time. So I have the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. Would that be and why?
 
Ashley Podzius  40:02
I think it would be when I worked at Timberline Knowles the second time so it is a residential treatment center out of Lemont, Illinois, and I met one of my favorite people in the world. Her name is Deborah Cooper. She's a published author out of Flagstaff, Arizona and a copywriter. And she's totally blind. So she's in her 60s has been blind, I think since she was 14. And she's just been the biggest inspiration to me along with my mentor, Dave Cook, who is an ex State Farm agent and mentor there I met him I was waitressing. But these two people on both sides of my career that I both love equally waitressing and outreach, I love them both. I think I can pinpoint those people as my biggest motivators that have helped me keep moving forward. Because there's been so many times where I've doubted myself and thought, is this really where I belong? And especially with for profit organizations, there's a lot of buyouts, and acquisitions, and a lot of massive layoffs. And I've been a part of three of those. So I was like, I don't know, if I could do this anymore. And I talked to both of those people, Dave and Deborah. And they both said, Ashley, this you're, you're good at what you do, cuz I talked to Dave because he knows, like everyone under the sun. And I'm like, Well, what about like pharmaceuticals or something like that. He's like, Ash, you don't want to you don't want to sell prosthetic limbs. I mean, if you do, that's great. But I don't think that that's what you want. Like, just keep doing what you're doing and find a company and stay at it. And don't worry about the money because for profit places offer a lot of money. But they don't last a very long time. They're not really sustainable. So I think hearing those words, they've helped, like me, just keep working even harder and keep doing what I'm doing. Because it's something that I am good at. I am good at building connections. And I couldn't really see myself doing anything else besides the yoga but that's on the side.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:10
That's, that's amazing. That's, that's wonderful. And thank you for sharing. And it's, you know, I've said this before, and I'm gonna say it again, whenever we need the right person to come into our life, they always find a way to stumble in. And, you know, it just seems every time I asked somebody this question, it always seems to happen at the right time, even when we don't know it's the right time. So well, I Thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. It's been an awesome conversation. Yeah, you're such an amazing person for doing what you do. And not only as, you know, as an outreach representative, but as a yoga instructor as well. You have a wonderful day. Yeah.
 
Leighann Lovely  42:56
Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.
 
Ashley Podzius
Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/ashleypodzius
Rogers Behavioral Health - 800-767-4411
Website - https://rogersbh.org/screening-request
 
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